I need a camara for a middle school (in my day Jr. High) student...I don't want to loan her my m-4... but I do want her to learn to read the light and set the cqmara her self so a full auto point and shoot is out...

I am told that the old cannon QL G111 is a good range finder with full manaul controls...any one know much about the cannon and what do you think of it a first camara.

-- tom hipple (elizabethmmg@msn.com), September 15, 2001

Answers

Tom:

Depending on how much you want to spend, I might first suggest an older SLR - such as a Nikon FM (or FE in manual mode) and a 50 or 35 lens - as they're a bit more intuitive to previsualise and focus with; and my experience with teaching youth is that early sucess leads to sustained interest... If you want to have her learn with an RF system, how about one of the cheap Russian copy Leicas?

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), September 15, 2001.

Pentax K1000 baby!

Unless you are going to get her a light meter, I'd stay away from most of the 70's RF cameras. They don't have a metered manual mode. So really won't be much help in teaching her to read the light.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), September 15, 2001.

I just gave my son an old Konica rangefinder (Auto S2) that I wasn't using. I would have preferred to give him my Olympus 35RD (smaller and lighter) but it's broken. I think any older rangefinder will do, there's nothing better or worse about the Canonets, but meters are often not working and mercury batteries are impossible to find (although there are reasonably acceptable substitutes.)

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), September 15, 2001.

Tom, I agree with Josh that an SLR is preferable for instructing beginning photographers vs 70's era rangefinders. I would recommend an OM-1, K-1000, or FM with a 50mm lens. Plenty of good used cameras are available at reasonable prices.

-- David (pagedt@attglobal.net), September 15, 2001.

Hi, Tom:

I just went almost all over the old threads archive looking for a previous question very similar to yours that got many answers at that time, but I couldn't find it for you.

But I remember that the the old Pentax K1000 was the most voted recommendation. Even one of our friends who sells cameras to photography schools recommended it.

Best of luck and have fun.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), September 15, 2001.

I just went through this with my own daughter. I ended up getting her a Pentax MX, which is arguably the best fully manual K mount camera Pentax ever made. It is small, light, but built very tough. It has DOF preview. It takes any of the millions of used Pentax K lenses for sale at used camera stores, camera shows, and on the internet for very little money. If you can find one they sell for about the same as a K-1000, but it is a better camera. Costs about $150 with a 50mm lens.

I happen to collect old 70's rangefinders. The Canonette QL GIII is a great camera with a very sharp lens that you frequently can find for $50 or so in good condition. It will teach your kid to focus manually and to think about exposure settings. It can be used (without a battery even) in full manual mode, but the meter is coupled to an shutter priority mode. So to shoot manually you have to take a reading in shutter priority mode, note the Fstop and then extrapolate from there. So it is not a truly manual camera, but it is close and it is cheap, and it is not rare. The one draw back is that it uses the now outlawed 625 mercury battery. It is possible to use a wein cell substitute or buy a little miniature battery converter (I forget who makes them but can find out for you if you want). Some people have a camera repairman re-adjust the meter for use with the newer alkaline cells, though the voltage fall off curve is different for mercury and alkaline cells. I still have a few mercury cells left over from the old days that I still use. They last a long time. There are still a few places on the net selling the old cells. Whether or not you feel comfortable buying and/or using them is a personal matter (and set off quite a flame war on another list recently).

If you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about these cameras and rangefinders in general check out Stephen Gandy's www.cameraquest.com site, and click on the review for the Canonette.

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), September 15, 2001.

I wouldn't torture a kid w. a fully manual camera like Pentax K1000 Nikon FM or some Russian LTM etc. It could easely kill any interest in exploring photography further.
My first camera was a Ricoh 500G, a coupled rangefinder w shutterpriority auto, and full manual override. I think this type of camera is excellent for supporting a growing interest -it was for me at least when I was 13:
First step; w. shutter set at 1/60 or 1/125 only focusing and framing is needed to make a decent image.
Second; the meaning of shutterspeeds in eg. freezing action becomes more interesting to explore.
Third; aperture and DOF begins to make sense and so does the understanding of the relationship between the parameters.
That most of these cameras doesn't support coupled metering in manual mode does not matter too much, as long as you can see the suggested reading.
I would suggest SLR's like Nikon FE, Canon AE-1, Pentax ME, Olympus OM-10 (w. manual adaptor) etc. if you should consider that route.
But I dont think it is necessary; a smaller coupled rangefinder is much easier to carry around = more likely to be used. -And it is not such a big deal should it be damaged og lost.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), September 16, 2001.

A used Pentax K1000 with a 50mm/f2 lens can be obtained for $100- $150, depending on condition. It used to be considered the perfect student camera!................................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

"I wouldn't torture a kid w. a fully manual camera like Pentax K1000 Nikon FM or some Russian LTM etc. It could easely kill any interest in exploring photography further."

Well,I don't know. I learned on a Leica model D and Weston Master exposure meter. Of course, my very first cameras were box cameras. I'm talking about as a teenager when I say I learned on a Leica. It was my dad's but he showed me what to do, and slowly let me use it more and more. I learned to produce uniform exposures form one shot to the next, and to understand DOF and hyperfocal distance.

Learning in this way didn't dampen my enthusiasm. It's only in recent years that I've gotten spoiled by built-in metering: M6, FE2, 8008. I guess I believe in starting with learning basic control.

On the other hand, the reflex finder probably does help to develop the ability to see what the film sees. Fewer surprises when the pictures come back. I guess I could agree that an SLR is a very good camera to learn with. Probably the concept of things being in and out of focus is learned in a more experiential way with the SLR.

Actually, my first SLR, when I decided to try an alternative way of seeing, was a Nikkormat FTN. Great camera. Today it goes for a reasonable price used, and the lenses, being non-AI, can be picked up very cheaply! So having thought it out, I'll join the camp recommending an SLR as a learner.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), September 18, 2001.

Tom:

Had a thought... Don't know how much you want to spend, but you can buy a new Nikon FM10 with the cheapo 35-70 Nikkor lens from new from B&H for about $220. The FM 10 is MF and ME but also has an AE option. From what I hear the lens isn't much, but the body is pretty good. For the price, what the hey...

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), September 18, 2001.