Primitive Religion- How low can you go?

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Religion starts out primitive and then turns into love somewhere along the way. Primitive religion has a punishing god and non-primitive religion has a loving god. I don't know, but maybe it's just an ongoing evolutionary process. Somehow, we went from the Cro- Magnon state to where we are now. From the original deities, Osiris, Zeus, Mars, Yaweh, Jesus, Allah, etc. and ongoing.

I think wars have to be fought in a primitive religious state. You need a punishing god, and he/she has to be on your side. Ossama Bin Laden clearly has a punishing Allah on his side. Primitive god, primitive leader, primitive people (muslims who are also terrorists). It adds up to a formidible and dangerous enemy.

Tonight in Levittown Pennsylvania we lit candles, waved flags, and blew horns. It was primitive. We are getting some kind of god on our side, and he/she is pissed off about that World Trade Center thing. Sad to say, but I think we need to do this to get ready for things to come. It's a matter of survival.

Seen any of this in your neck of the woods?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001

Answers

Um... you mean Jerry Falwell telling us how God hates feminists and homosexuals?

I'm confused. I would have guessed that Allah is about as "loving" as the Christian God. To what god do the George Bushes pray when they're "hunting down and punishing"?

I guess my main question is: Is there a religion that isn't primitive?

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001


Right, the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson responses were classic primitive christianity. (old testament thinking). Praying to "hunt down and punish" is also primitive religion. All religions can be primitive. At times they must be.

That's my point. It's necessary to devolve in a spiritual sense when a war is at hand. And it is necessary for everyone involved to do so to a certain degree. If you don't, you can go crazy. But to discuss this is a cultural taboo. Everybody likes to think that God is on their side, but I think that God is neutral.

I see it happening in the USA right now. I am for it, not against it. If Allah/bin Laden can wear the gorilla suit, so can Jesus/Bush. We'll see who is tougher.

-- Anonymous, September 15, 2001


I don't think religions are primitive; people are. But what do I know, I'm a born and bred atheist.

Most religions, as written, are ideal visions of how people should act and societies should work. It's just that people have to come along and fuck them up and misinterpret them.

Every faith turns out morons: Timothy McVeigh was Catholic, Jerry Falwell is a Baptist, Osama bin Laden is an Islamic fundamentalist.

BTW, I'm not saying that atheists are perfect and moronic atheists don't exist. I'm saying that idiots surround us and come from every walk of life.

Also, every time GWB expresses sorrow and sympathy in one breath and then spouts bilious hatred in the next, I fear for the future. I haven't reached the anger stage in my grieving. I can't even imagine getting to that stage because I'm so full of sorrow.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001


You know, I took a lot of religious studies classes in university and I've come to agree with the conclusion that 'primitive' is a way of dismissing a world-view that isn't your own. It's also a very colonial way of looking at the world -- ie. just as species evolve, so too do societies and as the west is more evolved it ought to therefore 'help out' those less evolved and primitive by bringing in missionaries and disease and foriegn government.

Isn't it a little quick to say what the motivations behind the terrorists were? Particularly since no one can say for certain who they were at all?

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001


Hey Sask,

In all those religious studies classes, did you ever read the Old Testament of the Holy Bible? Or the Koran? Talk to me about the PUNISHMENT that God bestowed upon Adam and Eve. Or maybe the WARS fought by the prophet Mohammed. Please tell me again why this is not primitive. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, September 16, 2001



Of course I did. I don't know why you want to make an Old/New test. split here because the bible is a huge thing. The new test. writings made a huge point of making Jesus out to be the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies (an idea I find repugnant) and of course, there's all that Acts stuff.

The old testament is not void of loving-kindness nor the new void of violence. But how ignorant of you to think so. The Koran is likewise filled with a lot of very beatiful texts describing god's love for the world.

I don't practise any religion, but I am quite wary of blaming religion per se for any problem that humanity is having. Religion seems to me an easy way for people to justify whatever they like. These are long traditions and you can find both textual evidence and traditional practise to support whichever view you espouse. For example, Christians in the united states used textual and traditional practise both to condemn and support the idea of slavery.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001


I'm going to add: I disagree with your original premisis, that people need 'primitive' gods to fight or whatever. I don't think so. I think humans are quite capable of doing horrible, stupid things without the help of a belief in a god or gods. I would argue that religion has evolved, in part, to explain the problem of evil in the world. Human evil (because I don't think there's another kind).

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001

Religion has always been a unifying force. (for the faithful) Down here in the USA, we have a war on our hands. Everyone is a target. That includes men, women, children, disabled, etc. We have 5,000 dead. We have no state sponsered religion, and our clergy is not a part of our government in a legal, political, strategic, or tactical sense.

Our enemy does have religion as a part of it's legal and political framework. When and if the facts are fully known, there is a high probability that the hijackers believed that they were doing a holy act.

We are rallying around the flag. That is obvious. But I also think that we will rally around something more.

Here is my guess. Within the next couple of months, there will be one or two hit songs played on the radio. These songs will enoble and sanctify a victim or victims of the WTC bombings. They will become our marching anthem, our neo Horst Wessel songs if you will. This will become a proxy for the religion component. It will be primitive, because it is based on sorrow, guilt. A desire for punishment is a logical ourcome. We will then have a primitive god on our side in a deep cultural sense.

Folks, can't you see this happening? Again, what's happening in your neck of the woods?

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001


"We have no state sponsered religion, and our clergy is not a part of our government in a legal, political, strategic, or tactical sense."

Except that your president keeps invoking his Christian god in almost all of his speeches. You know, the vengeful, punishing god of the righteously indignant.

This thread is getting irrelevant.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001


I do see some people talking about perpetuating violence, but I don't find myself rallying around that cause, no matter what ideology it's cloaked in.

No, I don't think this violent, "primitive" behavior is what "we" need to do to get ready for things to come. I think it's just an excuse for hateful people to be hateful on a larger scale.

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001



I don't think you have a war on your hands. I think you have a very terrifying and horrible incident to deal with as a country. I'm very sorry to see that the primary way I've seen the U.S. government wish to deal with this (I repeat) horrifying tragedy is to declare 'war'. Aside from the obvious flaw that this will surely result in the loss of yet more innocent lives, I fail to see the connection between bombing or invading any country and an 'end' to terrorism.

If people long to rally, why can they not rally round one another with support? If they wish to effect change, why can it not be positive change?

-- Anonymous, September 17, 2001


" Folks, can't you see this happening? Again, what's happening in your neck of the woods?"

I live in the torso of the woods, so none of this applies to me.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2001


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