I don't think it was the intent of the terrorists (for want of a better term) to destroy the World Trade Center towers. Rather just to damage them as a statement. My reasoning for this is that both towers were stuck high up. Structural Engineering 101 would tell you the lower the damage, the more likely it would be to topple a structure. I suspect the sponsors were very, very surprised at the damaged caused in an almost "Oh my God, what have we done" way.

I cannot agree either Air Force One or Camp David were ever targets. Just doesn't make sense. All that had to do is to read the morning papers to see Bush was in Florida. He is seldom at Camp David on a weekday. They couldn't have stayed in the air long enough to physically attack Air Force One, and would have been shot down had they gotten anywhere near it.

Of the targets in DC, the ones which make the most sense are the White House and Capital Hill. Likely they knew Congress really only operates on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. Mondays and Fridays are normally travel days. Even without the President there, the White House would have been a highly symbolic structure.

Hitting the Pentagon seemed to have been a last minute decision. As the pilot came in off the Potomac, the Pentagon would have been off of his left wing and probably was just too irrestible. As I have indicated previously, I have been in the Pentagon on a number of occasions and it is built like a fortress. Regardless of where hit, damage would have been contained. Besides, he flew by the side of the building which houses the top civilian and military leaders. All this did was to get the U.S. military pissed at them as well and they are the ones with retaliatory capability.

If those responsible are in Afganistan, they will be very difficult to get to. The U.S. has no bargaining chips, nor any targets in the country of any value. It is already the most impoverished country in the world. About all the U.S. can do is to fund and equip its opposition forces.

If they are elsewhere in the Middle East, they can blend into the population with no difficulty.

This tragedy will have ripple waves through every aspect of American life, and much of the world, for some time to come.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 13, 2001

Answers

I disagree with everything you said, except the last two paragraphs.

-- mary (marylgarcia@aol.com), September 13, 2001.

Come on man, wow. Basicly then, it they killed less people when the plane flew into the WTC it would have been better? If the buildings had not fallen (along with several more in the area) everything would be cool? I don't get it. If one American got killed, thats still one to many for me, period. This really holds true on our home turf.

I also don't care what the Afgans have. If somebody hit my car without insurace, they would still be liable for it. This makes me even more angry with every passing day.

-- Uriah (Uriahdeath2@netscape.net), September 13, 2001.

I'm no expert in aviation but isn't it possible they couldn't go much lower without hitting other buildings 1st or some kind of pressure flying type problem going that low? Just my spin on it, maybe they didn't realize it would collapse both buildings or maybe like everything else they planned out methodically, someone in that bunch studied the structure, or hired someone to give them the evaluation. At 1st I thought there had been explosives planted on lower levels to go off and implode the building 30 minutes after the planes had crashed into it. I doubt that field in Penn. was the target for that plane more likely the Whitehouse, whether the Pres. was there or not. I don't think certain people were targets, just the whole establishment of the USA! Like someone else said though, ONE person was to many! Gosh, I normally don't comment on political issue's but this takes the cake!

-- Carol in Tx (cwaldrop@peoplescom.net), September 13, 2001.

I can agree with you somewhat but not totally.

If the total destruction of the WTC was not their intent I think it probably delighted them nonetheless. Serious damage or total destruction either way our response would probably be the same.

Camp David would not make a very high profile target and Air Force One typically has (as I understand its practices) an armed fighter escort within fast strike range so trying to hit it with a large, slow, unwieldy passenger jet would be infeasible.

I do think the Pentagon was a deliberate target and the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was the one meant for the White House. Fortunately for us all there were some *very* courageous, solid upstanding citizens on that plane who did what had to be done and we owe them a debt that cannot ever be fully repaid.

If indeed it turns out to be Osama Ben Laden who is responsible then Afghanistan is going to be a tough nut to crack. Those mountains broke the hearts and the backs of both the British and Soviet Empires which is why I don't think we should attempt to take and hold territory there nor do I think we should use nuclear weapons given that *four* members of the nuclear club either border directly on Afghanistan or have territory close enough to them to receive radioactive fallout from our weapons. No need to provoke a nuclear war out of it.

I do think however that fuel-air explosives can give a blast very near nuclear in its effect and has no lingering radiation aftereffects. Give the Taliban fortyeight hours to produce Ben Laden and at the same time warn them to move all non-combatants well away from ALL targets of military value. At forty eight hours and one minute the first wave of B-52's cross their border. I don't think the Russians are going to object if we do. If we get to the point that there's nothing left larger than an outhouse we can consider what our next move will be.

In no uncertain terms do I think we should ever allow Ben Laden to think he'll ever have another nights peace for the rest of whatever life he has left. A fifty million dollar, no questions asked reward for anyone who produces his head might arouse some interest as well. Just at the moment I think there's quite a few in the Middle East who'd gladly kill him as a public service given the anger he's aroused against all things Islamic and Middle Eastern.

The Taliban already has real trouble with this Northern Alliance that they haven't been able to subdue. With our assistance we should make it possible for them to take control if we make it clear that we want Ben Laden's head on a literal plate. I'd like to see it on a spike at the front gate of the White House. Probably ought to freeze dry and epoxy seal it first so that it won't spoil.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), September 13, 2001.

This attack was not spur of the moment. It was well thought out, and I'm sure they also consulted building engineers on how to get the maximum amount of destruction along with hard study on all other parts of their plan. They sent people to SCHOOL TO LEARN HOW TO FLY COMMERCIAL JETS, for pete's sake! These people are not amateurs! They are professional terrorists. This is serious business to them that they do for a living, so to speak. You bet they knew where to hit those towers. They were flying bombs, loaded as they were with aviation fuel. They knew the fire would melt the structural steel and that the buildings would collapse. What do you think the intent of the garage bombing of the WTC buildings several years ago? They wanted the buildings destroyed. Well, they went back to the drawing board and figured it out.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), September 13, 2001.

What have you been smokin', Ken?

-- Cap'n (cptnktal@yahoo.com), September 13, 2001.

Ken, Your first asumption is flawed. Look at the pictures of the skyline of Manhatten. The two towers are (were) surrounded by other very tall (though not as tall) buildings. It would have been almost impossible to thread a jetliner between all those tall buildings to line up on the base of the towers. If you watched the video footage of the planes hitting on TV (played over and over) you will see how fast they were moving: full throttle! There would be no maneuvering room. They aimed as low as they could to be able to hit them with certainty. Do you think it coincidence that they selected long distance flights? These four planes were all headed for the West Coast and had full loads of fuel. They new what those thousands of pounds of jet fuel would do to those structures.

The plane that sruck the Pentagon may have been circling waiting for Air Force One to show up. Perhaps a flaw in the terrorist intelligence was in not knowing the President was in Florida. I think the circling of the White House before slamming into the Pentagon was an "In your face" gesture. Perhaps they were also scouting the nearby airfields for Air Force One. The other thing we don't know is the intended target of the fourth plane. I believe the terrorists (fortunately) delayed too long in taking control of the fourth plane. (It flew all the way to Ohio before turning around.) If they had done so right a way, they undoubtedly would have fulfilled their purpose, since the passangers would not have time to react the way they did.

Think about it: The World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The two symbols of American Might: Capitalism and Military.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), September 13, 2001.

"Rather just to damage them as a statement."

One more thing: These Islamic Jihad devils are not interested in making "statements." Have you not read/listened to their rhetoric? They want us dead. They teach their children to hate Americans and Jews. Their clerics preach "death to the Jews and death to the Americans, wherever you find them." They don't want to make a statement. They want to destroy everything related to Judaism and Western Civilization. This is what Jihad is all about. The word "tolerance" is not in their vocabulary. Martyrdom is the highest calling for them, and the more "infidels" they can kill in the process, the better. They declared war on us years ago. It just took this unspeakable act of destruction to wake up America to the fact that a state of war really exists between the democratic world and the Islamic Jihad fundamentalists and their host nations. Now they will see just how weak we are NOT.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), September 13, 2001.

Ken S, What about this whole thing makes sense anyhow? These people are fueled by an intense hatred, and when that emotion comes in, reason goes out the window. I'm glad it aint Gore in the white house, anyhow.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 14, 2001.

Another Monday morning quarterback here . . .

What ticks me off is that no one seems to have suspected that those towers WOULD collapse, and therefore would have been warnings to the rescue workers who found themselves victims. Shouldn't someone have already known the effects of this. . . fires are not unknown in high rise buildings. If not, we should change this practice quickly.

Maybe the rescue workers wouldn't have cared . . . there are many stories of heroics done spur of the moment, would do it again in a heartbeat. Thank you for all you have done and what you are doing in the aftermath.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), September 14, 2001.

There should be a memorial dedicated to the people who tackled the terrorists on the plane that crashed in PA.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), September 14, 2001.

j,r,, if anyone knew the effects of a fire in a high-rise, certainly the New York firemen knew. I choose to believe they put their lives at risk willingly to attempt to save others. We should praise them, not condemn them for their actions.

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), September 14, 2001.

The following appeared as a letter to the editor in the 9/14/01 issue of The Tennessean. It points out the diametric positions of two religions which basically worship the same God. There are many similarities between the Bible and Koran. Mohammed was a prophet on the order of Jesus. The rock from which he is said to have risen into Heaven is one of the holiest of Moslem shrines. I agree their concept of Heaven is a bit different in that those who died in the name of Allah are suppose to have 12 virgins waiting for them to help lead an afterlife of perpetual bliss. Actually, I’m somewhat surprised the paper even published it. I don’t want to ignite yet another forum Holy War, but I do think this is an opinion which needs to be heard. It does not, in any way, detract from the horror of these tradegies, nor for the sympathy to be felt for their victims.

Religion itself breeds terrorist activities

To the Editor:

I have the impression that suicide terrorists are heavily influenced by promises of glory and major spiritual benefits in an afterlife which allows them to carry out their missions.

This leads me to question the whole concept of freedom of religion. Any religion must be proscribed when it is used to kill and maim others to correct a perceived injustice. If these terrorists were taught there is no afterlife, would they kill themselves for the glory of an Osama bin Laden?

And, if they did, would there be a large contingent to support them if there were no religion for that contingent to rally around? Would a general populace obstinately stick to dogmatic concepts if it knew it was dealing exclusively with humans rather than attempting to curry favor with a supreme being?

Cases of irrationality in the name of religion are many. In the Jim Jones affair, his followers removed themselves from the gene pool. The Hale-Bopp comet suicides did likewise. But the Christian Crusaders killed, maimed and ransacked. How many Crusaders would have signed on if each had to access the appropriateness of what they were doing in terms of human beings rather than deities? Christians today in the United States are inspired to shoot doctors over disagreements with abortion policy. The jihads and fatwahs of the Middle East are religion-inspired.

Given the obvious insidiousness of justifying violence and terror in the name of some religion, it is ironic that our own leaders, in response to the World Trade Center disaster, are asking people to pray. This should be furthest from their minds.

I don’t think about Tuesday’s atrocities in terms of Arabs or Muslims, I see them as very good reasons to maintain my efforts to strongly challenge the validity of all religions and the illogic of all religious beliefs.

Jerry Rivers Nashville 37216 ripshodprym8@home.com

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 14, 2001.

How sad that there are stll many who do not know "THE TRUTH". Not only should those of us who DO know "THE TRUTH" be in prayer for our nation, our nation's leaders, the families of the known victims of this terrible tragedy, the possible remaining survivors and their families, and the rescue efforts and all who are involved in it, but also for those who do not know "THE TRUTH" to come to know "HIM".

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), September 14, 2001.

Ken, Keep in mind that not all Christians or wars endorsed by Christians are truly following Christ's example. Many people hate Christianity because of the poor example of some Christians. When bad things happen, most people instictively turn to God. Not so he can take the problem away but so that he will give us the strength and courage to face our trials and tribulations.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 14, 2001.

Don't go killing the messanger here. Actually, I disagree with some of what he said. Religion, for some, can be a powerful life-force. For others it is not. I really am neutral on the subject. I neither believe in a "Supreme Being" nor do I necessarily disbelieve. I do not consider myself to be a 'Christian', but I do try to live my life by 'Christian' ideas. As I have said before, the Ten Commandments are a pretty good working set of rules for a society regardless of how else they feel.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 14, 2001.

Suppose Camp David was a target because of the Peace Talks held there?

Regardless of intent or target... I am amazed at the Mercy of our God who through his divine providence and for reasons that will remain a mystery to us, allowed the terrorists to do what they did at the World Trade Center and yet do it in such a way that allowed many to escape before the buildings collapsed. Many people wonder how God could let something like this happen when what they really need to wonder about is why doesn't more of it happen. It is because God in His Grace and Mercy puts restraints on mankind's wickedness and because God restrains Himself for the sake of His people.

-- LBD (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), September 14, 2001.

My slant on Tuesday's events is that it was EVIL. We have had evil in this world from the beginning, and we battle it every day. This act of evil is still, I think, beyond our complete comprehension. It is so evil, even our minds don't want to understand, it shakes us to the core.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 14, 2001.

Cindy: Bad deeds are bad deeds whether done in the name of a God or for any other purpose. Every society has its 'lunatic fringe' and America is no exception, perhaps more than some due to our society being more free and tolerant.

Ken Scharabok

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 14, 2001.

Ahh yes Ken, I think that Jerry was right on! won't get on my soapbox, I am already so enraged that I couldn't maintain co ordination between my brain and my fingers! suffice to say that most of the organized murders, tortures, rapes , pillages, etc have been committed in the name of Religion, since Man came down out of the trees. Who could believe in some demented supreme being that encourages this sort of carnage and actually was responsible for creating a species that methodically kills, tortures, and rapes not only it's own species but the very Earth it lives on? Go figure.

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), September 14, 2001.

Hate to scare anyone out there, but as a former resident of the area near Camp David, the logical target for that area would have been Fort Detrick, MD, the military's BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WARFARE BASE.If it's biological or chemical and deadly, it's there on that base, and only about 50 miles from Washington DC. Camp David isn't much more than a country club, but Fort Detrick, that could be real trouble.

-- Denyelle Stroup (dedestroup@hotmail.com), September 14, 2001.

Perhaps as an explanation point to Mr. River's letter, I note at the closing of the National Prayer Service at the Washington Catherdal they played "Onward Christian Soldiers." It is a song which glorifies soldiers going to battle with the blessing of their 'Christian' God. Why not "Rally Around the Flag, Boys?"

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 14, 2001.

I was very moved by the National Prayer Service. Cried all the way through it. Even took a picture of it. Put it this way Ken, if I had to choose to go into battle with or without God, it sure wouldn't be without.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 14, 2001.

Ken, have you ever heard the song "With God on our side", sung by Aaron Neville? I believe it was written by Bob Dylan.

-- Annie (mistletoe@kconline.com), September 14, 2001.

Thank You Denyelle for clearing that up. I for one can see abolutely no reason to destroy Camp David. I personally think Bush is playing this disaster for all its worth. Are any of you really in doubt that we will survive this assult or that someone is going to pay for it? One more brief thought, as I watched the film clip of Bush and the rescuers in NY, the rescuers began to chant USA USA, My first thought was of clips of Isralie attacks on Palistinain villages and the villagers chanting anti-americian slogans. How alike we really are. Think!

-- Rog (rw285@isoc.net), September 15, 2001.

Rog,

The workers weren't chanting "anti" anything chants there. They were chanting USA - that's us. A little different I believe. Chanting our unitededness - not cheering thousands of deaths in another country.

-- Terry - NW Ohio (aunt_tm@hotmail.com), September 15, 2001.

Ken,

Sorry, can't agree with you here. Bin Laden has said in the past that he wanted to topple the world trade Center (remember 1992 incident?). This time he succeeded. My hunch is they weren't the best pilots from the way the planes were steered into the buildings. One had its nose down. They hit where they did because that's what they could manage. I doubt anyone has uttered "oops" for a second.

These people despise the United States and they want more than anything to destroy us. They don't value their own lives, so they certainly don't value ours. Destruction is their mission.

Afganistan may be an economically and morally impoverished country, but Bin Laden is extremely wealthy and he has pockets of supporters an collaborators all over the world. This enemy is mighty powerful.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), September 15, 2001.

How can anyone say that Bush is playing this up?! If he did nothing, you'd be saying he isn't doing enough. So, he goes to NY to show support for the rescue and clean-up effort, and you criticize this?! What do you want the guy to do?

If you had any knowledge of New Yorkers, particularly NY's Bravest and NY's Finest (our police and fire forces), you'd understand that their chants reflected patriotism and pride.

This problem is darn real, darn serious, and it isn't going away. I, for one, think Bush is doing a good job. And, Mayor Guliani of NY is a born leader. He is holding NY together at this horrific time.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), September 15, 2001.

Ken, you said about Afghanistan "About all the U. S. can do is to fund and equip its opposition forces." We have already tried that -- his name was Osama bin Laden. This was when we were supporting the rebels in Afghanistan against the Soviets. We, like in the USA, gave him about 5 BILLION dollars (which probably is still being used to fund his activities), all kinds of weapons including Stinger missiles. The CIA still can not account for many the missiles. I wonder how many are in this country just waiting to be used against some aircraft taking off or landing?

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), September 15, 2001.

I see in today's paper where they now say the White House was the original target of the plane which crash into the Pentagon. Apparently the White House is hard to see unless you come in high. Speculation is the pilot couldn't make contact with the primary and thus chose the secondary. Since the Capital Building is on a hill, it stands out, which indicates it was the target of the plane which crashed in PA.

AF One being a target was based on an anonymous telephone tip.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

I would be interested in hearing Ken, if you still think they didn't intend to distroy the towers.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Yes, even though apparently no one else agrees with my position. I still think they were extremely surprised when they brought down both towers, as was everyone else. I think the first plane at the WTC and at the Pentagon hit exactly where they wanted to. The second plane at the WTC seemed to have it barely under control. Someone said they hit high because it is surrounded by other tall buildings. Not so on the side they hit. They could have easily hit 40-50 stories lower if they had had full control of the aircraft.

The dude who piloted the plane into the Pentagon had to be a semi- pro. On the side he came in at there is an elevated expressway. He had to barely clear it. Had he been short, he would have hit the ground and skidded into the building. Just a bit higher and he may have hit the top floors (it is only a five story building) and cartwheeled into the center courtyard. Perhaps he was their best pilot since hitting the White House would have taken the most skill of the four primary targets.

Obviously I'm only speculating so let it go at that.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

My mail carrier is retired from the Coast Guard but has been active in the reserves. He was called up this week, along with about 67 other reservists in my area. He told me today that the authorities believe that there may have been as many as 93 targeted areas, but it is not yet clear how many were supposed to be hit on Tuesday. I was stranded in Las Vegas last week when the attacks took place. Fortunately my boyfriend was also there, working on another show for the same client that I was working for. His flight home on Thursday, and mine on Friday, were both cancelled. We were very lucky to finally get hold of a rental car on Friday morning, and drove the 1260 miles from Vegas to Chris's home in Dallas. We drove past Hoover Dam on the way out of Nevada, and it was eerie to see so many police and military personnel guarding the area. We did not see a single airplane during the entire 2 days of driving. When we got to Dallas I was able to get a reservation on a plane to Tampa Sunday afternoon. That flight later cancelled, and I was moved to another flight last night. When I went to DFW airport, 3 hours early in anticipation of crowds and security delays, I was shocked to find that the airport was nearly deserted. I walked right up to the ticket counter and checked in. I did have to wait for a few minutes while they x-rayed my bags, but that was all. The flight was delayed several times due to security procedures, but we did finally take off. I got home around 4am this morning. During the flight I could not stop myself from thinking about the victims on the 4 hijacked flights, and imagining what it would be like to find one's self in a situation like that. An associate of mine was on one of the planes that hit the WTC. He had been on tour with the Backstreet Boys and was leaving the tour to go and be with his wife while she gave birth to their first child. When I think about him, and his wife and their baby I can hardly contain my tears. And they were only one family out of thousands who have fallen victim to these terrorists. I think about Jeremy Glick, on board a plane with his 2 month old son, knowing that the plane was going to go down and they were all assured of a certain death. How can any father bear the knowledge that his child will die and that there is nothing he can do to save him? I have cried many tears for him and his family, as well as the other victims and families who I did not even know. Then I thought about the two men who were picked up in Ft. Worth last week- they had been on board a flight that was put down in St. Louis on Tuesday. They then caught a train to Texas, where they were fortunately apprehended immediately. There is no doubt in my mind that it was their intention to hijack another plane from DFW airport. Also, a man was picked up here in Tampa last week for immigration violations, and although I have not heard any more details about his arrest it is highly likely that he is associated with the terrorists. It was with some trepidation that I got on a plane at all- but I hurt my back last week, I am still in excrutiating pain, and after driving for 2 days just to get to Dallas I was pretty sure that I could not drive another 1200 miles by myself. I intentionally picked an afternoon/evening flight because I figured that any hijackings would take place in the morning so that they would have daylight by which to spot their targets! In addition, I am convinced that many more teams of these terrorists are running around all over this country. When airport security prevents them from hijacking any more planes I fully expect them to start attacking elsewhere. I think that we as individuals, and the government, too, have no idea yet what the real scope of this attack will be, and I fear that all of our lives are going to change a great deal more than we can even imagine at this time. I hope that everyone who reads this is safe at home tonight with their families and loved ones. I hope that everyone is prepared to hunker down for the long haul, and that anyone reading this who is not already on the path to self- sufficiency will begin immediately to prepare themselves and their families for the possibility that some essential goods and services might be in short supply in the future. Best wishes to all.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

Elizabeth, so glad you made it home o.k. and I hope your back feels better soon. You are right, this will be the long haul, no matter what our course will be. blessings to all.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.

Thought I'd add one more to the pile of responses here. People who say things like "religion itself breeds terrorist activities," and who think religion is itself actually a NEGATIVE force in the world just aren't seeing human nature for what it is. People will kill if they are inclined to kill. You can kill for the sake of Islam or Christianity, yes, but you can also kill for the sake of the Communist Ideal, to preserve the genetic integrity of the Master Race, or hundreds of other secular ideologies. If the world was rid of religion, would we really be any better off? The argument is that religion allows people to justify their hatreds as "God's will." I guarantee that, without religion, that would rapidly be replaced with "MY will." And the whole idea that "religion is bad" makes no sense, because every criticism is judging religion by the values that religion itself has instilled in our culture.

Granted, if I were a pagan citizen of the Roman Empire being evangelized by those who practice Christianity the way it is commonly practiced in America today, I'd probably say "No thanks."

By the way (whoever mentioned it), I think Heaven's Gate was about aliens, not religion (meaning, S-E-C-U-L-A-R).

-- Brian in Cincy (bdmetz@altavista.com), September 17, 2001.

Ok, behind here on reading all the threads on the WTC and Pentagon. I happened to do some research on the interne tnad of course read the MSN and Washington post sites. it was there at the Washington post site i read about the calculated attack on the towers. There is a physics explanation that an engineer gave that mad esens eto me. it wa scalled toppling a building by using the building's kinsethis energy and that swhat they did. I disagree ken, but then everyone has their thoughts on this, that it was not intended for the crash to happen as it did nor the Pentagon. you may be right in a sense, but after reading how calculated they were well, I tend to beg to differ, it wa scalculated. And further they studied our culture too to know when and how, etc.

Just my humble opinion.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 17, 2001.