A Lively Debate-Tax Protest

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Even amongst us conservative Christians there is a lot of room for differences to debate over. It seems we all miss that thought provoking exercise.

A long while back at CS forum we were having a lively debate on paying taxes, should we or shouldn't we? Doreen, Little Bit a few others and I were having quite a bit of fun with it.

If I can remember correctly, Doreen and Little Bit felt they would be willing to go to jail over taxes and my position was that money was not something I would be willing to go to jail for.

I have an aquaintance who is a long time tax protester. As an independent trucker, he was able to avoid paying taxes and social security. I am not sure exactly how it happened, but an accident left him without both legs, a pile of medical bills, a truck he could no longer drive and no income. Being middle aged and funtionally illiterate makes job retraining a monumental task.

His family decided that his two adult sons would run the truck and pay into social security on their dad's behalf so he could collect a pension, eventually. Within the next 18 months, both sons were dead, one from cancer, the other from a boating accident. The truck once again sits idle while they hope someone will work for them driving the truck and pay into his social security account.

Their only income is the small social security check they get for their orphaned grandson who lives with them, and the 55 year old wife with high blood pressure, who works two jobs cooking at the coffee shops in town.

This family has survived many personal disasters, but live on the edge, just one small step from total destitution. They are faithful Christians and focusing on Him has given them great strength to keep going.

My point of sharing the plight of my neighbors? Choose your battles wisely.

-- Laura S. (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 13, 2001

Answers

As a Christian person, I just couldn't lie on my tax return. It asks you to sign to the truth of your return and when I sign I want to make sure it is 100% true. "HE who is faithful in little is faithful in much!" Do you want to risk your eternal life to save a few dollars?

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 13, 2001.

Laura, do you not find it even remotely interesting that the scheduled Congressional hearings into the legality of the income tax was (maybe it will be cancelled now) to be held at the Capitol on September 25th and 26th? i do not consider it my Christian duty to pay extortionists. I consider it my Christian duty to stand up to extortionists.

The passage you cited above is regarding what is a gift of God to you in the realm of the physical and the spiritual as well. This is not how you act toward extortionists, but towards God and those who have rightful authority over you.

Question number one for those who don't already know....Why isn't the Federal Reserve listed in the government pages of your phone book? BECAUSE it is NOT a government institution!!!!It is illegal according to the Constitution. Is it your spiritual commandment to keep thieves in positions of power because of fear of what they can take from you? Get educated on the lies you have been told your entire life.

The sad story told above is where we all really are. Dependent upon the mercies of God alone and we are to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. Life is a test. A test of faith and a test of courage. It is pass fail as well. I can't give tacit approval to hoodlums and liars just to keep benefits.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 13, 2001.


Doreen, the Romans were extorting money from the countries they had conquered, too, including Israel, but when asked, Jesus said to pay the tax. He never endorsed rebellion against authority of any kind, other than to do things right -- God's way -- rather than following religious traditions. Which has nothing to do with the obedience we owe to our civil government, no matter how bad it is. The only way I would disobey the civil government is if they ordered me to do something the God says not to do, such as commit murder (abortion would be an example), or rob, steal, or cheat someone. Or if they order me to get rid of my Bible, or to stop going to church -- then I would disobey them. God makes it very plain that if a people has a bad government, it has been allowed by Him as chastisement for their sinful attitudes, and they aren't supposed to rebel against His chastisement, but repent and get right with Him, and then He will be able to give them a good government again.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 13, 2001.

I wanted to add that I could never work as an IRS agent, because obviously that would involve stealing from people on a massive scale - - I may have to obey the government, even when it is a bad government, but I don't have to participate in it. The only thing that is going to make things better is for each believer to live such an exemplary life that people will be willing to listen when the believer witnesses to them about Jesus Christ.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 13, 2001.

Geez, it just seems that NO ONE can understand that the LAW does not require but four .... {that's right 4!!!if you want to learn more about what these classes are go to www.informamerica.com} classes of people to even PAY income taxes. IT IS NOT your civil duty nor is it disobediant to not pay them if you are not a person required to pay them by law. This country is supposed to operate under the law, not under delusions and fraud.

Why do you think that the income tax question is equivalent with Tax Protest? I don't mind paying my constitutionally mandated taxes. (direct and indirect), I mind perversion and lies in a big way.

It is ILLEGAL extortion, and the money doesn't even go to operate the government that you think it does. It goes to the Fed, via the Depository Trust Company which sends it to the European banks, and funnels it back to the board members and holders of the Fed. And it isn't even MONEY that we are talking about!!!!! Sorry, I am a bit irritated if you couldn't tell....;}

There has been more than ample PROOF of these facts and yet people insist on saying it is some kind of civil duty to give these pieces of paper that we trade our labor for to the people who print them illegally, then sell to our Treasury, to sell to our banks, to sell to you, for you to deposit into the banks, and then they gain on interest and create figures and ledger book entries, and make loans with money they create out of thin air, to create more wealth for themselves and that increases their ability to steal our property and to abort children, destroy families, destroy society and lie to good, well intentioned people for their entire lives.

I am kind of beyond this debate, ladies. There is nothing to debate in my mind. It is all a big, fat, giant, humongus lie and if you want to believe it and feed it that is your perogative. I have fed it since I was 15 and I am tired of seeing the monster grow. This recent murder of innocent citizens is the direct result of failing to keep the government as accountable to the people, and a failure of the people to keep this one nation UNDER God.

Kathleen, (and everyone else) do you think this country could have ever been founded by people willing to continue in slavery? Were they all wrong to revolt and rebel and take control of their own lives? Do you think the perps of the Tea Party are in hell for throwing it back in their "government's" face? Do you realize that this tax is just to keep you impotent? We get to pay to increase our enslavement.....it's quite a scheme. We are slaves and will become even more so. Especially now. But we are even more pitiable than slaves, because we operate under the delusion that we are free.

Please look in the archives and follow some of the sites through. Then go to a law library, or check it on the net at the US Code (title 26) and see that you *most likely* are not required to pay this particular tax. Do you make your money working in a foreign country? Are you a foreigner working in America? Are you a corporation? Are you a Federal government employee? If you answered yes to any of the above questions you are required to pay the income tax. If you answered no to all of them, you are not required to pay the income tax.

No where in the Bible does it say that you should willingly support and fund fraud, extortion, lies, murder, thievery, unjust weights and measures, usury. On the contrary, it's moral lessons are all about routing out evil and not allowing it to flourish. If you can point me to more than one scripture that tells me that I must support these activities to be in line with Christ, then I will. As well as post a public apology, write my congressman and senators and ask them to see what they can do to increase the level of taxation on myself, call the appraisal district and tell them they need to add several more thousand dollars to the sixty percent increase they gave me this year, and just beg forgiveness from everyone for my misinterpretations, sit back and watch it all die without even pointing it out.

Government is not God and they are not responsible for our health and our care in old age. Pleading Social Security is just like saying your 401k plan is going to save you. It puts the State and money as God and perverts the truth of where our blessings come from.

Honestly, at this time, I don't even know that we are still under the Constituion. It doesn't seem that any of this matters too terribly. The truth is the truth regardless, but with these recent events, I doubt that the Constitution is going to come through unscathed. They are actually saying to give up liberty for safety on the news.......I don't think that it will be put to vote.

Oh, the "render unto Ceasar" was a "tribute" (defined as:a gift, testimonial, compliment, or an obligation or liability to make such payment) so why does the law say the income tax is voluntary?

-- (bisquit@here.com), September 13, 2001.



Although the federal income tax involves a sudstantial amount of money, the issue is far more valuable than money. proper application of the law and meaningful due process of law are the real issues. The IRS are in violation of both issues. Our tax system by design is actually an outstanding system providing the necessary funds for our government to uphold the societal contract yet allowing citizens and resident aliens to florish financially. This is why I oppose the national sales tax or flat tax proposals. The IRS, with the blessing of the congress and the protection of the DOJ, has been allowed to circumvent the system creating to a large degree the mess we are now in.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's when it's Ceasar's. I have no objections upholding my legal obligations to my government. However I have yet to find any section of the code that specifically implicates me , a US citizen living and working within the 50 states, liable to the tax. This is important to say because court case "Gould vs Gould" advises me not to implicate myself to a law that does not specifically implicate me.

Many tax advocates use section 1 of the code because it imposes the tax on individuals. Initially this seems valid until we go to blacks law dictionary. To use the word individuals in section 1 the writers of the code had to know the legal meaning to make sure they were using it in the proper context. They used a legal dictionary to insure this. To make a long story short, when I see the legal meaning of individual and the legal meaning of citizen I see two different people. This explains why section is the only section of the code that is referenced to section 1. Don't take my word for it. Please see for yourself. This is just one of many circumventions of the code by the IRS.

Many citizens are unaware that there is a monumental case in progress that may seal the fate of our most treasured freedoms. The court case USA vs Thurston Bell is a classic example of how the DOJ protects the IRS despite

-- Donnie Whetstone (donnie@3pdfitness.com), April 07, 2003.


Although the federal income tax involves a sudstantial amount of money, the issue is far more valuable than money. proper application of the law and meaningful due process of law are the real issues. The IRS is in violation of both issues. Our tax system by design is actually an outstanding system providing the necessary funds for our government to uphold it's part in the societal contract yet allowing citizens and resident aliens to florish financially. This is why I oppose the national sales tax or flat tax proposals and favor applying the federal income tax the way it was designed. The IRS, with the blessing of the congress and the protection of the DOJ, has been allowed to circumvent the system creating to a large degree the mess we are currently in.

Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's when it's Ceasar's. I have no objections upholding my legal obligations to my government. However I have yet to find any section of the code that specifically implicates me , a US citizen living and working within the 50 states, liable to the federal income tax. This is important to say because court case "Gould vs Gould" advises me not to implicate myself to a law that does not specifically implicate me.

Many tax advocates use section 1 of the code because it imposes the tax on individuals. Initially this seems valid until we go to blacks law dictionary. To use the word individuals in section 1 the writers of the code had to know the legal meaning to make sure they were using it in the proper context. They used a legal dictionary to insure this. To make a long story short, when I see the legal meaning of individual and the legal meaning of citizen I see two different people. This explains why section 871, tax on nonresident aliens, is the only section of the code that is referenced to section 1. Don't take my word for it. Please see for yourself. This is just one of many circumventions of the code by the IRS.

Many citizens are unaware that there is a monumental case in progress that may seal the fate of our most treasured freedoms. The court case, USA vs Thurston Bell, is a classic example of how the DOJ protects the IRS despite their off point arguments. Mr Bell was being accused of false speech which is rightfully not protected under the First amendment. Mr Bells legal argument resembled previous arguments that both our government and Mr Bell agreed were frivolus. After some litigation Our government admitted that none of the frivolous arguments were connected to Mr Bells thus rendering them unable to disprove Mr Bells legal position. Furthermore, the points of law that made Mr Bells argument distinctly different from the previous arguments were never addressed. Having no legal ground to stand on our government resorts to what I consider a classic hail mary argument of " Mr Bells argument is frivolus because it's Frivolus." What followed was a dark day for our judicial system. The acting judge ruled in favor of our government enjioning Mr Bell for false speech.

This is a supreme court case in the making and can go on for some time. We cannot afford to be submissive with an entity that derives power from us not over us. Left unchecked....we may not have the luxury of choosing our battles.

-- Donnie Whetstone (donnie@3pdfitness.com), April 07, 2003.


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