It was only this morning that I burst into tears, driving down the M1 to work. I pulled off at the services and took a moment. Last night I was too shocked; I still am.

If I hear one more journalist asking for the numbers of casualties I'll scream. 100? 1000? 10,000? Doesn't matter, we just know it's far too many.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, in this case it really does toll for all of us.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Answers

AP

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

The numbers question also makes me angry, Nick. I heard a US journo ask a survivor if they saw any blood...beggers belief at the insensitivity. Also, when I woke this morning I had a slow realisation that yesterday's events actually did happen. The telly showed even more angles of the 2nd aeroplane hitting the WTC (how many more times can it be shown?), and more experts speculating on the consequences and the evil of it all.

One thing that somewhat cheered me was seeing the queues of people, some still covered in dust, waiting to donate blood. And I hope I'm not thought of as flippant, but did anyone else get a slight chill when they saw / heard an aircraft last night?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

My main corporate banking contacts in NYC were with Salomon Smith Barney. I watched the building I spent so many hours working in collapse like a pack of cards on CNN this morning - made it all so much more real.

I'm praying because of the delay that all my former contacts escaped unharmed.

Morgan Stanley who's headquarters were in the WTC, are reporting that 1,200 of their staff are "unaccounted for". Chilling.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I read a report on SKY's website yesterday about a phone call to one of the ofices in the north tower before the second plane attack....that had the response "we're fucking dying here" before the phone was hung up, the report then said "a second call went unanswered"....

WTF were they doing ringing people in the offices that had been attacked!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I'm siiting here watching the morning news. More and more footage is starting to become available. The terror on the faces of those involved is indeed chilling. My heart goes out to all those involved. Nick - I too shed tears over these horrific events.

And still the journos ask how many are dead. They'll never find out, but whatever, it is likely to be one of the biggest figures ever. The scenes are reminicent of an earthquake. We all know the effects of those and this is a lot worse.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Unconfirmed reports of 800 dead in Pentagon quoted on BBC World Service.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

No Bobby, I don`t think you are being flippant. This morning I was at the gate collecting our papers when a big commercial plane flew very low overhead. Quite unusual here, so I assume it is to do with the changed flight paths. My blood actually ran cold and my stomach churned. Something which I would normally glanced at with fleeting interest looked sinister and menacing to me, and quite honestly, I don`t think I will ever be able to fly with confidence again.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I live close to Schipol airport yep cold shivers here too. Unusual numbers of military planes in the air (also close to military base), is this true elsewhere? London?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I used to drive past Northolt Aerodrome which is right beside the A40 Western Avenue in London. It's odd because a number of private aircraft approach and take off going across the road, so the street lighting is significantly lower than normal. I'm very glad to not be driving past there this morning.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Stevo - not seen any military aircraft in London. Barely seen an aircraft all day

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

screach, my girlfriends whole town was ruined by an earthquake, her school, friends, shop the lot were ruined. A lot of people died. THe worst part was the not knowing. But in this case there are so many questions to be answered...

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Saw a load of fighters flying over this area (Liverpool St) yesterday afternoon....nothing today...

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Its probably only precautionary, just makes me feel a bit jumpy. My wife's been sent home from work as the company tries to locate a number of employees who flew out to New York yesterday (they're probably somewhere in Canada). God knows what all this is going to do to the world economy.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

any person that dies in an unjust and horrible situation like this is a national tragedy. There are times when life gives us a serious slap in the face... this is one of those times. We often use this BBS as a distraction from the real world, but it is a wonderful community and the people here have shown more heart and concern in times like this. I feel honoured to be able to share this space with all of you. If there can ever be anything good that can come out of something like this, let it be that we shared and cared together. May God bless us all......

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

ramblings... I saw the whole thing on Spanish TV. IN Barca they were celebrating their (rather poignantly) non independence day, the day they lost to Madrid in the Civil war. Defeat was accepted (rather grudgingly) and they got on with it. This puts all that sharply into focus.

The night before we watched Gandhi on DVD, what the world needs now is a similar figure.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Unfortunately the little man's legacy was a nation torn in half, several wars, and the hypocrasy of non-violent protest and encouraging Indians to join the army in WW2. Nice ideas, lots of symbolism, but ultimately not politically strong enough.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

True.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Got a reply from a friend on a 3 week business trip to the States:

"Am fine. Shaken but not stirred in Austin, Texas. Am planning to drive home :) "

That could almost count as a haikko(sp?) couldn't it?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

It wasn't just the repeated enquiries about the number of victims that got to me, I think the whole media effort began to come across as invasion of people's grief.

I think it would have been infinitely more respectful if they'd broadcast the details regularly, say five minutes every hour, over the evening, but closed down completely in between reports.

It started to take on the appearance of a media feeding frenzy.

Of course, nobody forced me to watch the whole time, and I didn't, but the TV was on the whole time while I did other things, but it did start to get on my nerves that each time I came in, they were just repeating the same footage, with bits of interspersed opinionating.

I just wondered how they could be so insensitive, but maybe it's just me, life and the show must go on sort of thing - but not so bliddy soon for god's sake.

Not too impressed I'm afraid.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

The weird thing for me, living under one of the final approach paths to BWI airport, is the complete lack of plane noise since yesterday. I'm so used to looking up to see what kind of plane is flying over and which carrier it is as I walk to my car in the morning, wishing I could be in a plane going somewhere. It's just part of the routine. That was missing today. I just wonder if I'm also going to feel jumpy once flights resume, at least initially?

It is nice to have this forum to come to share our thoughts. As everyone was scrambling for information as this all started yesterday, I remarked to a coworker how strange it was that the only thing I could access was a Newcastle United BBS and I was relying on reports from people in England and Japan to find out what was happening only 20miles and 190 miles away from us. It was comforting to feel like we weren't totally cut off.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Gav, it was Cantor Fitzgerald that was saying they were dying. My friends brother works for them in Tokyo. He had friends in that office whci was on the 104 th floor. 3 floors below the point of contact.

The thing that has p!$$ed me off about the media is wat they did in Japan.

They have filmed the house of one of the victims, zoomed in on the name plate to show where he lived. I despise the media in this country.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Jesus Kegsy that's bad...I hate the media in this country with a passion but that sounds like something else....

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Well the good old parochial Evening Chronicle is leading with "Geordies witness US Terror". Surely some award should be forthcoming for this effort.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

The worst example of the Japanese press was a couple of years ago. A plane was hijacked by a guy with a knife and he wanted to fly a 747 under Rainbow Bridge, like you can do in computer games......

There was a struggle and the pilot died. The press found out the pilots name and camped outside his front door. His wife had been shopping and came back to find all the press

She asked them with if something had happened, something bad?

They told her, this was shown on all the news programs that evening.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Jeez, thats terrible. There's an old media joke of the mythical provincial paper headline 'Nuclear Holocaust hits New York, local man killed". Never thought I'd live to see something close to it. Local paper here has produced a seperate 'special edition' consisting largely of a few pages of syndicated press photos, which is just as pathetic. I hear e-bay was doing roaring trade in WTC memorabilia until they closed it down.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Someone once posted on communicata:

"Fog on the Tyne: World cut off"

Not sure if it was a quote or original but it's a masterpiece.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Most definitely a masterpiece. Suspected he lifted it from the infamous Times headline 'Fog in Channel, Continent cut off'.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

BOSTON (Reuters) - Investigators in Boston found a copy of the Koran, a videotape on how to fly commercial jets and a fuel consumption calculator in a pair of bags meant for American Airlines Flight 11, which crashed into the World Trade Center on Tuesday, the Boston Globe reported today.

The paper said the suitcases belonged to a man with an Arabic name who investigators believe was one of those who hijacked the plane and crashed it into the New York landmark.

The man boarded Flight 11 after flying into Boston's Logan International airport from Portland, Maine, but his bags missed the connection, the Globe reported.

The discovery, if verified, would be the latest bit of evidence pointing investigators toward Islamic extremists as the perpetrators of Tuesday's deadly attacks in New York and Washington.

Senior U.S. officials have said initial evidence points to the organization of Osama Bin Laden, the Islamic militant who has been blamed for previous attacks on U.S. facilities in the Middle East and Africa, as the author of the attacks.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I think the media operate on the basic premise that we are all sick voyeurs. Equally that airline bloke who kept saying that the US had given into lobbying from big airlines and failed to implement proper security on domestic flights despite warnings from almost everyone. This allocation of blame to US security and intelligence is just like allocating blame to someone who wears a short skirt and gets raped: it lessens the responsibility of the criminals.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

What can be said that hasn't been said a thousand different ways, everything is a mess. My firm, which is based in NYC lost many people yesterday, people that I spoke with on a regular basis won't be calling me anymore. Sitting here at work it is strangley surreal, people are sobbing in their offices, others are just walking around looking vacant.

Who knows what's going to happen now. I feel as though we are witnessing the begining of something very, very bad, which is going to have global implications. Countries are going to be dragged into this unwillingly, put it this way, the loss of life yesterday will be nothing compared to what is going to happen to whomever is responsible.

Bush has said that he is going to hold responsible the countries that have harboured these people. War is imminent. God help us.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Unfortunately he's got a point, Dougal. And I don't think it's just lobbying from big airlines or whoever. The public here seem to think it's their right to have curbside checkin and stroll up to board a plane as the door is closing. Also that it's against our rights to have bags searched. The people monitoring x-ray machines are paid minimum wage, receive little training, and many could care less what goes through. There have been numerous cases of feds and media going undercover and walking right onto airport grounds and onto planes without being stopped or questioned. Dulles and Boston have been highly publicized cases in the last few years. Still people bitch about the inconveniences and they don't want to deal with it, no one will attack us here, blah de blah de blah. I don't think this should minimize the responsibility of the terrorists, but we have been sitting ducks for years. It was only a matter of time.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Here in Asghabat, Turkmenistan, the same feeling of shock and horror is shared by on-and-all. We have access to CNN and everyone has been following it constantly. It is sickening and I too was moved to tears, my daughter e-mailed me from Northampton to say one of her friends worked ni the Trade Centre but was late for work. Unbelievable quirk of fate.

We here are slightly concerned (selfishly I know) about US reaction and threats against Afghanistan and the ilk (quite justly so) but we are on the Iran/Afghan border and it makes one think.

You are a great lot and its a privelege to talk when I can or simply to read your thoughts deep or hilarious.

Bless you be in touch

Derek

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Mayor Gulliani of NYC has just indicated in a Press Conference that there are "a few thousand" people unaccounted for in each of WTC Nos. 1 & 2.

Talking about the gutter media, some bone-head journo has just asked him "who is picking up the tab for the clean- up!!!!!!!".

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Also, there have been numerous calls to a local radio station this morning from people telling of how they've recently flown around the US carrying handguns, rifles, glocks and knives of various descriptions right past security who didn't even blink. They were allowed through because they 'declared' their weapons. None of these people were in law enforcement or military with express need to carry weapons

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Unfortunately, Charlton Heston and his fellow Rifle Club members will no doubt point out that if everybody exercised their right to bear arms then them no-good hi-jackers would have been blown to smithereens the moment they got out of their seats.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Reading Clarky's Reuters post above... does anyone believe it?

If you were going to hijack a plane would you take with you the "how to do it" manuals?

That report smells of trying to pin the blame on Arabs

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

... and why would he need a fuel consumption calculator??

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

To take Devil's advocate and a bit of guesswork, Geordie...

Presumably the airline pilots would have done their utmost to prevent such an horrifc incident, so the hijackers would have to fly the aircraft. Doesn't beggar belief to think a last minute boning up would be in order from an amateur pilot with such an 'important' mission. And airplanes use fuel at different rates depending on their altitude and speed. Most airplanes carry more than necessary in case of diversion, then (I think) dump fuel before landing. In a hijackers mind they may have several contingency plans in case their colleagues were more / less successful than planned e.g. secondary targets etc.

The fact that the items were found so quickly says more of the intense investigation than any convenient evidence gathering.

Only guesswork, mind

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Just had an email from my mates from work stuck out in Baltimore. Apparantley Maryland is in 'a state of emergency! and only the police are out on the streets. They have been told there will be no flights back to the UK until Monday.

Another colleague who was travelling on Monday night is stranded in Nova Scotia !!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Don't even get me going about the NRA folks. The 3 passengers who fought the hijackers which led to the plane crashing in Pennsylvania didn't need guns to stop them causing further mayhem. It will be interesting to see how much, if anything, really changes here once the initial shock and anger wears off.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Kats - I have a number of colleagues and customers who were mid air en route to a study tour when the trouble started. They had to land at Goose Bay, along with 25 or so other planes. I once got diverted there and it is not a nice place. Wooden huts and inside the Arctic Circle, so likely to be pretty cold. Mind, better a small inconvenience than the potential alternatives.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Maryland is fine, Kats. I live about 15min south of Baltimore and am currently at work in Annapolis, next to the Naval Academy and state capitol buildings. People are at work, only 1 school district in the entire state is closed (probably more out of panic, than any real reason). There is heavy police presence around federal and other strategic buildings downtown Balto, so some streets are likely closed to traffic. A friend of mine is at work right next to Camden Yards (the baseball stadium) and hasn't really seen any disruption other than cancellation of tonight's Orioles game. Haven't heard when the airports will reopen, but the FAA said they wouldn't announce anything until at least noon today (in about an hour). The governor declared a state of emergency at noon yesterday shutting down state offices, but called it off last night. Security is tighter in all large buildings today. I work in a state building and everyone was asked to show id today. Not that the security guard really looked at it. But at least they're making an effort. Also access is restricted to the one door. Normally there's dozens of access points to the buildings. You're friend should be fine here. Even the pollution level is down, so it's safe to breathe. ;-)

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Bobby, the planes took of on east coast to west coast flights. There was no intention to fly them further than NY. The hijackers were prepared to die ... fuel load is irrelevent as they could have flown virtually anywhere.

they planned this well, so "boning up" would be unnecessary.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

... and if I was going to carry out the attack but pin the blame on someone else I might conveniently book in under an Arab name leaving my car and evidence parked in the red zone!

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I agree with Geordie, the supposedly 'discovered' Arab's luggage sounds a little too convenient. What will they discover next? A letter addressed to a Mr. B. Laden, Afghanistan showing a map of the Pentagon with a big X over it.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Maybe, but with respect we're both speculating. The facts appear to be that the items were found, convenient or otherwise. My way of thinking says go for simple solutions until proven otherwise.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Cheers Ciara, Not sure when my mate sent me the email, maybe things have calmed down there now. I'm pretty sure the conference was being held at the Baltimore Convention Centre, and I think it has resumed now !

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Kats, it may well be your friend doesn't get out for a few days. Just heard conflicting reports. One, that no airports will reopen until they can come up with new security measures. The other, that most airports (except Boston and both DC airports) will reopen later today. If DC National AND Dulles remain closed, BWI is going to be nuts as they'll have to deal with 3 airports' worth of passengers. If your friend is scheduled, or can get switched, to a non-US carrier he/she might have better luck as foreign carriers always get priority over US carriers to minimize disruption of flight schedules overseas. At least that's always been the case when problems occur due to severe weather. I don't imagine this will be much different.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Ciara, I know work are working hard to provisionally book them onto flights to get them out of there ASAP. At least they are stranded there in a group .

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

It must help to be with a group of folks they know, especially in a strange city. I imagine the convention center was nuts yesterday. I found out when I got home that a hoax threat had been called into the Governor's office naming the Baltimore WTC and the state capitol building as targets on a list including NYC and DC. That explained why the level of panic amongst police and state authorities seemed a bit higher than what appeared warranted. The guy responsible for the hoax has already been arrested.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

I wonder how many times he'll fall down the stairs on his way to the cells ?

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Like all on here I am also deeply shocked by the tragic events, this morning I was physically sick ,this is the first time in my life that I have reacted in this way , watching the events unfold and with the wife visiting I had no-one to share my concern , Been able to read and share my grief on this forum has been a saviour for me, At present there are too many imponderables for the authorities to categorically state the `blame`, from experience Ciarra has her finger on the button to possible `cause`, Gav is right to suggest a `lets get the facts first policy` and I am with Geordie re the car. 20 years ago during the hijack season I attended a security conf hosted by `The Two Johnies`, 95% was aviation orientated, why I was there , heavan knows, we were told about the `The Threat`, names have changed but the same old movements are still about. On the practical side we spent a day on devices etc and I rememberasking the question, "Can we ever keep up with these guys if they are determined enough. I cannot publish the answer but it was not encouraging , questions from the workers at the sharp end tended to follow Ciarra`s view, ie land it, fuel it ,load it, quick turnaround but not taking into account the security measures that were required. At main airports these have now been taken into account but the main difference from 20 years ago is that in the majority of cases "Chummy" did not want to die, he/she did not want to be caught, they would carry out extensive surveilllance and if security was seen to be good they would leave well alone. Now we have a different beast , someone who does not give a shit whether he lives or dies, for the cause, for martydom , this presents a different problem for the authorities and security people. BTW Prof Paul Wilkinson has a wealth of experience and David Learmouth talks sense but I am amazed at these young commercial city types they are wheeling out , cannot but feel they are on a company plug. Finally this has not been mentioned on any programme I have seen but the rogue pilots may have been abducted, programmed to carry out this horrendous deed, like others I shall wait.

-- Anonymous, September 12, 2001

Regardless at how they arrive at their target the American public need someone to blame, it may be that American Intelligence know who are responsible but cannot say how without holding their hands up and saying "Yeah we new this was planned, we have infiltrated the terrorists camp". It is far easier to say they found a suicide note or in this case Muslim underpants and "how to fly a plane manuals".

I heard this morning that only one from two of the towers were insured because of the unlikely nature of two collapsing but I suppose this is the last thing on most peoples mind in NY today.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

They are saying this morning that the terrorist pilots who took over control of the planes were professionally trained in the US.
Presumably, this means they know exactly who they were?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

CNN has been naming names this morning, a couple of brothers, originally from Saudi, lived in Florida, taking flying lessons. FBI saying they think 50 people probably involved altogether but that none of the groups may have known of the other 3 groups

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Just found the following reports:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The FBI has identified a team of 50 people who helped plan or carry out Tuesday's air attacks on the WTC in NYC and the Pentagon (news - web sites), the LA Times reported on Thursday.

It said 40 'infiltrators' had been accounted for, including those who died in the suicide attacks, and 10 remained at large.

The newspaper quoted "a source familiar with the investigation" as saying agents who searched cars and apartments found suicide notes in New York that some of the hijackers wrote for their parents.

On Wednesday, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said some of the hijackers had trained as pilots in the United States. "Four planes were hijacked by between three to six individuals per plane, using knives and box-cutters and in some cases making bomb threats" Ashcroft said.

The LA Times said investigators had recovered credit card receipts showing that some of the hijackers paid for flight training in the United States. It cited another source, a federal agent involved in the probe, as saying authorities believed 27 suspected "terrorists" in all received various kinds of pilot training.

Time magazine reported that two of the suspected hijackers of the American Airlines jetliner that slammed into the Pentagon had been on an FBI border watch list, but managed to enter the country due to some kind of a foul-up. Each of the four teams of hijackers included a certified pilot, some of whom had flown for Saudi Airlines.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

They've been making arrests in Hamburg, Germany now....

Looks like the net is closing....

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Good news on getting the foot soldires. Unfortunately they may never get the ringleaders, especially if they're in Afganistan.

The might of the Red Army tried with millions of soldiers for 10 years to find the hideouts of the rebels. Folks who say send in a team of experts (SAS types) clearly don't understand how the special forces work. And sending in the bombers is useless too unless you have very, very specific targets, which is unlikely due to the vast terrain and lack of communications in the country. Buggar, but true.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

I'm listening right now to the US National Anthem being played - and sung - at the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace.

The hairs are standing up on the back of my neck - how emotional! Awe inspiring.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Am I right in thinking that Afghanistan has never been conquered by a foreign power for centuries / ever?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Technology has come a long way since the russians tried to take afghanistan, especially spying technology......you've also got to remember that they are not trying to take a country over, just destroy a group or a few groups of people.....they'll be able to pinpoint them....

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Nick, there is some precedent for elite units hunting down unknown and moving targets in a desert / arid environment, like the SAS in the Gulf War. They were very successful and 'Storming' Norman Schwartzkopf (a true believer in tech warfare) even wrote to the regiment praising them.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

we have just been reading nostradamus (as you do) and he says the 3rd great war will start when 2 brothers are torn apart and the great city is burning...

go read that 2 brothers report again...

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Nice thing about Nostro is that you can read whatever you want into anything he says. Man makes his own future, and I don't think a medieval Italian monk's ravings have any bearing. Respectfully, it's all heebie-jeebie crap

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart

by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb,The

third big war will begin when the big city is burning"

Nostradamus 654 (circa 1558)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

A few thoughts, to get them off my chest.

These attacks demonstrate just how vulnerable we all are. Airport security will no doubt be increased but can only hinder rather than prevent a resourceful and suicidal terrorist from turning any plane into a flying bomb. Had the individuals responsible access to nuclear or biological weapons can anyone doubt they would have been just as prepared to use them?

The comparison with Pearl Harbour is irresistable, but misleading. That was the start of a classic inter- state war, this is something of an altogether different nature. A conflict with a shadowy multi-national enemy with millions of sympathisers who regard the US + its allies, rightly or wrongly, as largely responsible for their own poverty, oppression, and lack of power. Madeline Albright refered to the US as 'this benign nation'. For many, particularly in the Islamic world, the US is regarded as anything but 'benign'. They see the US support autocratic repressive regimes in their homeland in the name of oil, they feel powerless and humiliated by the presence of the state of Israel in their midst, they regard the justification given to fight the Gulf War as hyprocrital cant. It may, or may not, be coincidental that September the 11th was the anniversary of George Bush's speech to Congress heralding the start of that conflict.

Until this level of hate and hostility is understood - and recent US media comment such as the Wall Street Journal's comparison between Clinton's Middle-East diplomacy and Chamberlain's Munich appeasement suggests it isn't- attempts to combat terrorism of this sort will be an uphill struggle.

Calls for immediate revenge will be difficult to ignore, but should be. Lessons should be learnt from Clinton's decision to lob a few cruise missiles at Bin Ladin's Afghanistan camp in '98 following the African embassy bombings. It undoubtedly went down well in US public opinion, but whilst the damage inflicted was minimal it only bolstered Bin Ladin's popularity and respect amongst the sort of people for whom Tuesday's attack was a cause of private celebration.

Combating international terrorism on this scale requires calm, long-term strategies, pooled intelligence, and global alliances with states not always neccessarily sympathetic to the US + its allies. A hasty violent response might feel good, but could stoke the fires of fanaticism even further, and be extremely counter-productive. This is a time for cool heads and strong nerves, not cathartic emotional reactions. Rant over.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

He's still a fruitcake and also dead. He didn't write in English. City of God can be Mecca, Jerusalem, Dheli, or Newcastle depending on your point of view. "Big war", "great leader", "great thunder" - suitably vague for a paranoid and superstitious public during a period of European wars, plagues and natural disasters. He always gets turned out at moments of misery because paranoia and superstition never leaves the human psyche.

No, mankind makes his own future by his own actions. It is not predefined and the future cannot be told in some mystical way.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

exactly, bombing eighteen shades of shit out them won't work. careful extermination based on intelligence (double meaning) will.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

change that to babelfish way bob :-)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Re. the comments on the successes during the Gulf War. The same cannot be said re. the Balkans, where the ground forces had limited success, mainly because the effects of air cover were limited by the terrain.

As one US Air Force General (?) said during the Balkan crisis "We can do deserts, but we don't do mountains".

And, even tho they can 'do deserts', Saddam is still in power. We were able to use diplomatic/economic sanctions againat a relatively westernised country like 'Yugoslavia', but this is ineffective against fanatical regimes.

Regardless of the strength of your intelligence, you have still got to get troops to go in there and act on the intelligence. Religious fanatics holed up in montainous terrain - difficult.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Swift you really should check that it was written by Nostradamus before you post it...

It was actually written by a bloke who was trying to prove that if you write abstract prophecies then people will believe them and fit them into events.....he's got you and everyone else sending this round hook, line and sinker!

http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

"...you write abstract prophecies then people will believe them and fit them into events..."

Why couldn't I be that concise :-)

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

It was a temporary aberration bobster....not like me at all...

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

i sent that along with this to a boro fan

"those in red will come off the rectangle, heads bowed, to the sound of black and white thunder, they will be humiliated"

Nostradamus 1-4 1414

Gav, i'm more interested in what Bush says than Nozzy...

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

I'm sure it's all atributable to sublibinamal advertising.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Gav,

I think Greenspun butchered your link. Can you try again?

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Pilgrim,

I don't do links you've gotta cut and paste it :)) just way too lazy of me....

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

OK - I think it butchered your cut and paste, Gav.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

I've just cried for the first time. I've seen all the footage, I've read all the reports and what really brought it home was seeing the changing of the guard in London and listening to them play the American National Anthem

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Roly's posting really got to me. It suddenly made it personal rather than an unknown number of unknown people. Also the minute's silence at yesterday's match.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

what is as distatseful is the shots of africans blasted to bits in the embassy bomb in africa afew months ago. some of these images are so stomach churning it makes me feel guilty at the reaction in this case. alienation causes these damn things, its about time it was sorted out. there will be some north africans wondering who really, gives aflying shit about them...

its a mess

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

It all started hitting me last night when I got home to another night of non-stop coverage on all of this. Watching interviews with rescue workers and survivors. And hearing from more friends of mine who knew people at both the WTC and Pentagon. Some of whom got out and many who didn't. I started waking up from nightmares at 3am and never really got back to sleep as it would start again as soon as I'd drift off.

It's weird cause life around here is basically as before, but with higher security in buildings. Security that should really be normal. But then you can't turn on the tv or radio and not here continual reference to what's happened. It's real, but not real if that makes any sense. And the planes still aren't flying over my house, or anywhere really. I just want to see a plane flying. Weird, the things you latch onto. This sucks. :-(

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

You just can't seem to get away from the coverage, it's on the television and the radio everywhere. It has been a nightmare trying to explain to my four year old daughter. She woke up in the night after having " a nasty dream about bad men in an airoplane trying to kill her Auntie Sarah !" What do you say ??

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

last night bin laden gave me a chill, a true villain

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

All of sundays NFL games have been cancelled. Baseball might start again tomorrow. NYC city mayor has ordered six thousand body bags.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Stevo,

Thanks for your thoughtful post - the sentiments expressed dovetail with my initial thoughts posted yesterday, if far more eloquently.

The thirst for revenge is a natual human reaction. However, in isolation, acts of vengeance - no matter how extensive - will most definitely not resolve the problem of terrorism.

The democratic world must grasp the nettle of addressing the underlying problems that create supportive climates for such heinous acts of terror.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

LONDON (Reuters) - An Afghan Taliban radio station, monitored by the BBC, said on Thursday the Taliban authorities had said they were ready to hand over Osama bin Laden to an Islamic court if the United States could prove his guilt in the terror attacks on the U.S.

The BBC said the report was picked up from Radio Voice of Shari'ah of Balkh Province, Mazar-e Sharif. It quoted the radio as saying: "The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (IEA) has honestly asked America to give clear and substantial evidence for what it considers Osama to be responsible for, and the IEA will hand him over to one of the Islamic courts of the world in order to be tried."

Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Thursday Saudi-born dissident bin Laden was a suspect in the attacks on New York and Washington in which thousands of people were feared dead.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

The quote from the US head of navy (or something similar) was quite worrying (Note this is not exact words but it is very similar)

"We are ready to kick some ass, and if some innocent civilians are killed in the process then so be it." This is from either the Mail or the Express, one of the two.

Killing one man isn't going to solve anything, there will still be his "legend" living on with his men. If the US are going to take out the perpotrators, then they have to take them all out, not just one man.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

It will be interesting to see what happens if that scum is handed over. The cynical side of me thinks Afghanistan is trying to save their hides by handing over 1 man. He should be strung up, but he wasn't alone. We need to get his helpers. It's up to Afghanistan and any other country harboring terrorists to prove they mean business about not harboring them. Otherwise, I tend to agree with the sentiment of blow em away. War is ugly, innocent people die in war, but this threat has to be eradicated once and for all. I do have faith in the decision-makers in the US government not going out all guns blazing. I'm impressed at the restraint shown so far, no doubt helped by the support of most of the world governments. For once, I think this is going to be handled right.

-- Anonymous, September 13, 2001

Right now, the last thing bin laden wants is restraint from America. As the saying goes, wait till you see the whites of their eyes...blowing up places all over the shop won't solve anything, careful targetting will.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

I think alot of people are missing the crux of what is actually happening, apart from the obvious which is tragic and truly horrible.

This is how I see it, I think. Palestine wants to be recognized as an independant state? Isreal has land that was Palastines in the first place (which I believe GB had something to do with) The USA has backed Isreal to the hilt to serve their own economic purposes. War has been raging in this region for years with no result, the only way for the whole world to take notice is by doing something to an outside party (usa) hence tuesdays carnage.

What would happen if the USA made Isreal give palestine land, would this be over?? I know it's simplistic and smacks of idealisim, but at this point what's left.

I stand to be corrected so feel free to unload your thoughts.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

I'm not sure a country with so many fundamentalists as Israel (ok, those with loud voices get heard) would stand for that. Besides, it's already a paranoid state with a seige mentality and any direct instruction to give in to 'terrorism' (i.e. Palestinian self rule) especially by its most fervent backer would be resisted. The Jewish lobby in USA is very powerful. Remember, Israelis are not beyond terrorism themselves - British ships were limpet mined during the fight for a Jewish state.

But what would be left is a partioned country, smaller and feeling even more threatened by its looming anti-Israeli neighbours. It wouldn't take much for the Israeli tanks and helicopter gunships to take off. On the other side, I don't think Palestinian self rule would be the end of the matter. Jerusalem is a serious 3-way problem, the Golan Heights, Lebanon etc. Repatriation of Jewish settlers from 'occupied lands' and Arab Israelis forced to choose between countries is another problem.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001

Firstly, let me say I'm not aware of the full historical facts. Nevertheless, as I understand it Britain was 'administering' Palestine when the Jews headed for the Promised Land after the atrocities of WWII. Britain left the Jewish interlopers and Arabs to fight for the territory, and the Jews won, establishing the State of Israel.

Whatever the more detailed historical facts, the Palestinian people were ejected from their homeland, and have been fighting for territory to establish a homeland ever since.

As I understand it, this underlying injustice has been the cause for all the Arab-supported terrorism that has affected the West for 20-30 years. Therefore it seems painfully obvious that unless some solution in found to this situation any amount of carnage, perpetrated by whatever coalition that is put together by the US, will not succeed in permanently ending the terrorism.

An accelerated solution will now require the US to apply massive pressure on Israel, who does not seem motivated to concede land to the Palestinian people - possibly for valid security reaons. Nevertheless, whatever the inherent problems, this seems an essential prerequisite to ending this Arab- sourced terrorism.

-- Anonymous, September 14, 2001