Friends,

I'm deeply shocked by what the news are reporting on terroristic acts against the United States. This is not a specific Leica matter, I know, but since I feel very close to many of you US fellow photographers I would like to share your concern here...

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 11, 2001

Answers

This is crazy. My heart sinks as I watch the news. I may be far far away in Singapore, but I pray that God bless the nation of America with his protection, peace and blessings.

-- joel (joel_low@pacific.net.sg), September 11, 2001.

Friends:

Most wholehearted condolence to all of us who had been touched by this tremendous tragedy. Certainly Joel is accurately expressing what we feel at the moment. I add up myself to his praying.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), September 11, 2001.

If Hollywood had produced that footage of that airliner crashing into the World Trade Center, we would have laughed at how unbelievable it looked... and yet it was real. This has to be the saddest day for so many people. There will be very few people in the U.S. and the world that remain unaffected by this day.

To the New York area forum participants, please let us know you are alright.

God Bless!

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), September 11, 2001.

I´m so concern about what is happening in our world now, god bless us all. A black day in the history of our civilization.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

Very thoughtful words posted here. How impossible it is to live life normally today and undoubtedly for a long time to come.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), September 11, 2001.

Unbelievable. I am working because there is nothing else to do and I can't go home. A terrible day for the whole World too, not excluding those who planned and organize such an attack. Thanks for the posting Lutz.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

I remember have read here about the Budas destroied few months ago, now is a contemporary icono of the world economy, it reminds me of Pearl Harbord, what´s next?, what represent us, and what can be the cost of our cultural diferences?, there is a lot to think about, Can you imagine a way to picture it?

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

Thank you all outside of the US for your thoughts. Our mainland was attacked once before- in the War of 1812 with the British. We are now so vulnerable.

It's hard to imagine what good will come out of this at the moment. One can only hope.

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), September 11, 2001.

R. Watson

If it turns out to bin Laden and his cronies (assisted by the Taliban), then your protest was particularly prescient. F15s flying over Manhattan. Can you believe it? It is like a nightmare, but it is real.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

Thanks for the very kind and thoughtful words from those of you outside the United States.

The world is full of so many great people. This forum is my personal door to the rest of the countries on earth. It is heartwarming to hear of the concerns of those for us with such heavy hearts.

Fear not for the people of the USA. We are a great people. We will endure this tragedy. The spirit of this country is indominable.

Special prayers for those in NYC, Washington D.C. and those on the airplanes involved in these attacks. May god bless their families.

David S Smith

-- David S Smith (dssmith3@rmci.net), September 11, 2001.

The whole thing seems like it should be a Hollywood "b" movie. Sadly though, it's all too real.

I find it even more bizarre to be saying things like "When the second plane hit........." The second plane?!?!? What the hell is up with that? There shouldn't have even been one plane. And a total of four planes were taken over and crashed? One terrorist attack on US soil would have been a major story for weeks.

It's all pretty messed up. I feel for those who have lost loved ones. And I especially feel for those who were trapped in the planes or the Trade Towers. What a horrible useless way to die.

Half of me wants to see a resonable response to all of this. But since I can't really think of one, the other half of me wants to be a war-hawk and see those who are responsible destroyed with all the power we have.

What a day.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), September 11, 2001.

The seething anger here is unspeakable.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), September 11, 2001.

What a sad day for the world! There are so many fine people throughout the world. Unfortunately, it only takes a few rotten apples to create tragedy.

A couple of days ago, we were calmly discussing our different opinions of Leica R and M cameras, as reasonable people would. Today we see the cruel actions of uncivilized cowardly terrorists who feel they must strike out and kill innocent people for unfathomable reasons. What a shame that such animals continue to exist in our world. Despite many years of education, my vocabulary contains no words vile enough to describe those terrorists. Perhaps only God knows why they do such horrible things.

I believe we should determine who is responsible for this tragedy and do whatever it takes to punish them appropriately, as we would punish any other criminal(s). Prayers and best wishes to all for your family and friends through this period of trouble! LB

-- Luther Berry (luther.berry@st-systems.com), September 11, 2001.

Dear friends,

this is a very sad evening for us in Berlin also. These televisionpictures with the WTC- towers collapsing I will never forget in my life. I´am an architect and never thought something like this could happen in our times when there is peace, at least in most parts of the world.

I hope the American Government is strong enough n o t to act accordingly against the presumably arabic/ near east terrorists. The world will not be what it used to be after this horror- day.

Hope the best for our LEICA- friends in NY.

K. G. Wolf

-- K. G. Wolf (k.g.wolf@web.de), September 11, 2001.

Just woken up to the news here in New Zealand and my heart goes out to the people of America. As Bush said "freedom was attacked by faceless cowards". Long live freedom, long live democracy and God bless America.

-- sam smith (Ruy_Lopez@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

I work across the Potomac River from the Pentagon. I cannot describe how I felt to see billows of black smoke coming from the Pentagon. Our world will not be the same after this.

-- David Enzel (dhenzel@vei.net), September 11, 2001.

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth be removed. And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea. . .The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved; He uttered his voice, the earth melted.

"Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!" (Psalm 46)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

"Look unto me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:22)

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), September 11, 2001.

Hello Lugers,

I am a photo editor at the Associated Press in San Francisco monitoring the terrible, and disturbing photos coming over the wire and like all of you it seems like some sort of terrible movie. I'm not sure how to respond it's so crazy. I don't think the US will ever be the same.

Regards Tom Gallagher

R\

-- Tom Gallagher (tgallagher10@yahoo.com), September 11, 2001.

Thanks to Lutz and Rwatson and all the others. I'm at work putting out tomorrows Denver newspaper, so I'll just say thanks again.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), September 11, 2001.

I just got home from work having witnessed the whole WTC tragidy from my Jersey City waterfront office. I still can't comprehend what I saw. I came here to try and get back to some sort of normalcy and thank our friends for thier thoughts.

-- Brooks (bvonarx@home.com), September 11, 2001.

How can I respond to this unspeakable act? I consider myself a peaceful man, but today I want to see the blood of those responsible drained into the earth... Thank you for the post, Lutz, and thank you all for your kind words and thoughts. I never would have thought it would be such a great comfort to have this network to reach out to. May God bless the victims and their families; and God bless America.

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), September 11, 2001.

I hope I speak for all Canadians and wish to extend my deepest sympathies to all the people and their families affected by todays cowadly attack on the United States...............

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), September 11, 2001.

To our dear friends in the US.

We in Australia are deeply shocked and offer you our heart-felt sympathy and support.

My church's small gathering at the Wednesday "prayer breakfast" was at prayer for you all this morning. Little enough, but we are thinking of you.

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), September 11, 2001.

Thank you to those from overseas who have sent their condolances.. I know we all appericiate your thought and prays...

-- tom hipple (elizabethmmg@msn.com), September 11, 2001.

Yes, the United States will never be the same again. One change that I will welcome, and which now, more than ever, is obviously needed, is better airport security. That FOUR commercial jets could be hijacked in the same morning, in the same nation, is a sign of serious security problems. You posters from other countries may not know it, if you've never travelled in the U.S., but our airport security is a joke compared to all of the other nations I have visited (Europe, Australia, etc.). Perhaps now we will professionalize our airport security forces, as many other nations have done.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), September 11, 2001.

I called my mother this morning, shortly after I saw the first news report. She didn't answer ... she lives just north of NYC in the suburbs. I wasn't worried for her.

A friend of mine works in DC for the State Department. He's in the State building and in the Pentagon all the time. I dreaded callling. He sent an email around noon, he is safe.

My cousin and his family live in the apartments just west and south of the New York WTC site, about 3 blocks away. Many friends live or work in the neighborhood there. I have no news from any of them.

My mother called me back this afternoon. She'd just seen the news and was crying. "I'm so tired. I've already been through four wars, do I have to suffer another?"

I can think of no answer to that plaintive cry.

Godfrey

The Balance

"Do you see, children, how an act is not, as young men think, like a rock that one picks up and throws, and it hits or misses, and that's the end of it? When the rock is lifted, the earth is lighter; the hand that bears it heavier. When it is thrown the circuits of the stars respond, and where it strikes or fails the universe is changed. On every act the balance of the whole depends. The winds and the seas, the powers of water and earth and light, all that these do, and all that the beasts and green things do, is well done, and rightly done. All these act within the Equilibrium. From the hurricane and the great whale's sounding to the fall of a dry leaf and the gnat's flight, all they do is done within the balance of the whole. But we, insofar as we have the power over the world and over one another, we must learn to do what the leaf and the whale and the wise do of their own nature. We must learn to keep the balance. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice, we must not act without responsibility.

&emdash; Ursula K. LeGuin

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), September 11, 2001.

Neather security or inteligence, neather power or violence, neather in the name of revange, makes us unvulnerable; something reality has insist in putting in my head today.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 11, 2001.

My heart is filled with sadness as I realize the evil that exists in our world today. I believe the human race is capable of peace, but many wish for peace and still, it is not here.

-- Mike DeVoue (karma77@att.net), September 11, 2001.

I haven't cried for a long time but I did last nite. Not that I was there, not that I am in the USA, not that my friends or family members were lost, but just from knowing the pain that was suffered, still being suffered and that may never heal.

These are pics that I wouldn't take. Pure misery.

-- Yip (koklok@krdl.org), September 11, 2001.

To our neighbours in the USA, our thoughts & prayers are with you this evening. I spent the afternoon with our Emergency Measures Group, preparing for flights redirected and to ensure that people arriving on cruise ship from States arriving in our harbour would be met by people trained to assist in such grief. This evening my family attended church and offered our prayers to the families affected by such horrible events. All peoples are affected by such terrible events. We must strive to make the world better for our children.

-- Peter J. Hanlon (peter.hanlon@3web.net), September 11, 2001.

To all our international users of this list so shocked by these acts, I ask this serious question. Considering the magnitude of the attack, the kinetic and chemical expended by the crashing aircraft and the kinetic energy expended as the towers collapsed, would you be shocked if the us government decided that this act had crossed the nuclear threshold. Will you be equally shocked with the dead women and children seen on international television after a US retaliatory attack or will you say that it's terrible but they deserved it. We are all shocked with terrorism and loss of life. Does your shock extend to the point where you will see massive retalliation as justified.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), September 11, 2001.

Thank you for the sentiments.

I grew up in New Jersey, in sight of New York City, and watched the World Trade Center complex go up over a few years. Today I watched it come down in a matter of seconds.

-Nick

-- Nicholas Wybolt (nwybolt@earthlink.net), September 11, 2001.

I was shaken as I watched the events unfold this morning and have no other words to explain this. May God be with all the families involved and may He give your government leaders the patience and forthought to do what is right in a timely fashion. I have two small children and I can't shake the thought of how many children in New York don't have a mother or father coming home tonight. How absolutely cowardly can humans get? My prayers are with you in the USA.

-- Collin Orthner (corthner@home.com), September 11, 2001.

What a horrible day this has been for all humanity! Thanks for the concern expressed here by all. Let's keep the faith!!!

-- KL Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), September 11, 2001.

Thank you Lutz, Roberto, Robin, et. al. I can't talk any Leica talk today. Somehow I knew we would exchange thoughts on today's tragedy. I'm too shocked to collect my thoughts. I haven't been a very good counselor today. I could use some myself.

Stan Tamarkin is close to the target area. I think I'll try to check if they're OK.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), September 11, 2001.

"Will you be equally shocked with the dead women and children seen on international television after a US retaliatory attack or will you say that it's terrible but they deserved it... Does your shock extend to the point where you will see massive retalliation as justified."

I see "massive retaliation" as justified if it is targeted at those who have committed this act and those who aided and abetted them. But violence is rarely precise, there is often "collateral damage" (to borrow a military term), and I believe that revenge, prevention, justice -- whatever you wish to call it -- is not worth the sacrifice of innocent lives. So yes, I would be shocked, and disappointed, at pictures of "dead women and children" and any other innocents, for that matter, and I believe many other Americans feel the same way. To bad it is not a universal sentiment.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), September 12, 2001.

I wish to thank all of the international contributers for thier sympathy and compasion for the victims of this tragic event. Words cannot describe the emotions I have experianced today. So much horror, grief and anguish caused for so many innocent people, and for what? It is encouriging to see people pulling together in this time of need, but I can't for the life of me see anything good coming out of this. No cause will be advanced, and certainly more destruction is on the way. God help us all in the upcoming weeks.

Steve

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@tds.net), September 12, 2001.

Oh God let our sorrow wash with tears the blood and the dust, and when calm help us find the ligth tomorrow, sorrow, so deeply sorrow.

I´ll go to bed now and just pray for tomorrow to be a new day.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 12, 2001.

A new day has broken. It's still quiet in the house and quiet outside - quieter than on other days, it seems. I'm sitting in front of the screen, reading your posts with tears in my eyes. When I looked into my teenage daughters bedroom to wake her, she was lying awake, hadn't slept after the news we have been watching yesterday. I wish I could make this world more liveable for her and for those to come.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 12, 2001.

Lutz,

Thank you.

Though I am far away in Singapore, I had a niece and a sister-in-law in the next building over who are safe, as are other immediate family in NYC. Those were long hours yesterday.

My deepest sympathies to all affected in any way, or who bear any loss...

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), September 12, 2001.

I share your feeling of pain, friends. My family and friends here in Russia and Ukraine are shocked and commiserate to the act of terrorism.

-- Victor Randin (ved@enran.com.ua), September 12, 2001.

Well what can anybody say, I feel what every sane compassionate person feels in such a situation, but lack of true comprehension and lack of words disable me. It makes everything I am passionate about seem so trivial.

-- Richard (richard@designblue.co.uk), September 12, 2001.

Me too. I don't even know how to put it. I am at a loss for words. I am so sorry for anybody/everybody involved. For them and their families and friends.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), September 12, 2001.

From New Zealand too my heartfelt prayers to all Americans and to all peace and freedom-loving people throughout the world who have been so deeply shocked by this unspeakable tragedy. I remember standing on the top of the World Trade Center in March with my wife and my cousin, who lives in New Jersey. How we admired the view and waited until the sun went down to watch and photograph this magic city sparkling at night. The utter horror of what has happened is almost unbelievable. It puts so many other trivial things into perspective. Let us just pray that the forces of goodness and peace triumph. God bless!

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), September 12, 2001.

I also am far away, a Brit/Aussie living in Indonesia. I had no access to TV news last night so the first I heard of the tragedy was this morning. My feelings were, firstly, disbelief, then shock, then sympathy for the innocent, then anger toward the guilty and, right now, disgust at the futility of it all. For all those who have undergone a most terrible experience, through no fault of their own, victims and their loved ones, I feel very sad.

There is bound to be a strong response to these terrorist actions, though it will be difficult to focus on the real enemy, who hides behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity. In any event, I believe the people of the USA will rise to the occasion, as always, with nobility, dignity and honour.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.

I'm from Italy. We now have seen the horror, but We must continue to believe in life and freedom. Un fraterno saluto a tutti voi.

-- Domenico (giannantonio@comune.re.it), September 12, 2001.

My colleagues, friends and I wish to convey our deepest sympathies to the families and friends of all those killed and injured in yesterdays horrific acts of terrorism.

Those who planned and perpetrated these barbaric acts are truly insane.

-- Jeremy lewis (JeremyB.Lewis@gbr.xerox.com), September 12, 2001.

Mixed emotions and scrambled thoughts here in London. Its senseless and so waistful. Human kind may be the most developed and supposedly 'intelligent' species on this planet. But I really wonder sometimes. I feel deep compassion for those that lost their lives completely innocent of this act. To all fellow Leica users in the US my thoughts are with you and I know you will spring back, sometime, when you are ready.

-- Sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), September 12, 2001.

At our church in England this morning we prayed for America and the victims and relatives and friends of all those affected by this indescribable disaster. Words simply cannot rise to the occasion, but I just want to express sympathy, solidarity and support to all Americans - our loved and respected allies in so many difficulties and dangers. You will come through all this.

God Bless America!

-- James Harper (drjh@btinternet.com), September 12, 2001.

My prayers, too, are with the Americans. I learned about the attacks in the evening; we all gathered in the house's TV room and watched, silently, as the terrorist attacks' consequences were unfolding... I don't have words for what I felt.

About 60 per cent of the members of my parish are U.S. citizens. (It's one of the foreign language missions in Munich, Bavaria.) So far no-one seems to have lost relatives, but there's plenty of tension. Yesterday evening services, and all services today in Bavaria, remembered the dead, and we prayed for the injured. There's a special Mass for the Sick in one Munich church every third Saturday of a Month; you can be sure I'll include all the victims of the attacks in the prayers on the 15th.

Lord, let the dead see Your light; heal the injured; help their families, and be with the helpers, with all who witnessed the tragedy and its consequences. I also pray for the U.S. Government: that it may have the strength to not retaliate; and for those responsible for the attacks: that they may understand what they have actually done, and act accordingly.

Pax et bonum,

-- Oliver Schrinner (teresius@web.de), September 12, 2001.

Thanks, Lutz, and all our friends around the world. The hate in this world is sickening. The last words of the murderers: "God is great."

-- John Fleetwood (johnfleetwood@hotmail.com), September 12, 2001.

Perhaps my prayer that the U.S. may not retaliate may lead to misunderstandings. Punishment of whoever is responsible, yes. Responding in a similar way, by hardly checked violence, no.

If it's fundamentalist Moslems, what an interpretation of the Quran is that that enables people to believe that killing innocent others is OK under certain circumstances?

I continue to pray for all the victims of the attacks, and for their families. We may be used to occasional bombs in Europe, but 'New York' is a synonym for a new dimension of terror now. I feel the wish to strike back surge in me, too. In Europe, we are so trained to not show grief that it turns into aggression. I admire this forum's participants' peacefulness, in that they remember the victims and pray for them, instead to call for revenge.

Pax et bonum,

-- Oliver Schrinner (teresius@web.de), September 12, 2001.

Oliver:

It is unfortunate that fundamentalist Muslims give all muslims a bad name. Equally it is unfortunate when fundamentalist Christians give all Christians a bad name in the United States.

What is interesting however to consider is that Islam is the only major monotheostic religion which advocates killing non-believers. Many muslims will tell you this is not true, but a study of their religeon reveals otherwise.

Muslims believe in the Jihad. However, they speak of two different Jihads. The greater Jihad is the battle one fights within his own self to follow the faith and totally dedicate his life to his god. The lesser Jihad is the battle against those forces and entities which stand as a threat to Islam. This is given far lesser significance in mainline Islam but it exists nonetheless. Both Christianity and Judiism have a history of religeous war but both religeons have evolved beyond this. They probably both would respond with deadly force if there were an outright threat to the foundations of the religeon but most would use nonviolent means for all lesser threats. Most of Islam has not evolved much since the 8th century, about 100 years after Muhamad walked the earth. During the 8th century, killing nonbelievers was legitimate. In most of Islam, it still is.

The big difference between Islamic terrorists and most the rest the world is the use of innocents to make the attack and the total targeting of innocent people.

I find it hard to believe that Islam, Christianity and Judiism all worship the same God, the God of Abraham. How we have all diverged from a more or less common origin.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), September 12, 2001.

How insignificant anything else seems compared to the events of the past 24 hours in the United States. I have sat glued to the images of devestation on my television screen, unable on occasions to hold back tears. The feeling of sorrow today over London is like the darkest cloud, my thoughts are with all in the US.

-- Gary Yeowell (gary@yeowell.fsnt.co.uk), September 12, 2001.

A tragedy of this magnitude really puts life into perspective, doesn't it? I was feeling sorry for myself because I have just been diagnosed with an eye problem which may permanently impair visual acuity in my right eye. Since my hobbies are photography, birding, and target shooting with pistols, I was depressed. But the tragic events of yesterday shows that my problems are so minuscule and that I am indeed VERY BLESSED by God!

I don't believe my God approves of the senseless slaughter of innocent victims by such terrorist attacks as we say yesterday. These are truly despicable acts by despicable animals of the homo sapiens tribe. (I refuse to call them people.) Let us concentrate on our points of agreement and agree to disagree when we differ. May God bless us all in this time of tribulation, especially those who have suffered loss or injury to family or friends. LB

-- Luther Berry (luther.berry@st-systems.com), September 12, 2001.

Terrible tragedy-I know no words to describe it. The worst part of this is knowing it could happen again, and that any steps taken to prevent it will not likely be successful and will only instead take away some of the personal freedom we enjoy here in the states. I will not be surprised to see a military presence in airports in the future. I also feel for those Americans of Arab decent living in the US who may become misdirected targets for the widespead anger present here now. It is my deepest hope that the citizens and goverment of the US uses wisdom in dealing with this situation.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 12, 2001.

There is no way to put into words the feelings and emotions of the last 24 hours. Like thousands of families in the USA and around the world, I had to wait many anxious hours for news of loved ones. My brother who was working in the Pentagon, and a brother-in-law whose office was at the WTC, are alright. We were fortunate. My heart goes out to the families of the those killed. We will pray for you.

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 12, 2001.

What a sad day. The entire world is shocked by what happened yesterday and all my prays go the the family of the victims, the countless children that have lost a father or a mother. I am shocked, sad, and will never forget that day.

Mark, you cannot say that "The big difference between Islamic terrorists and most the rest the world is the use of innocents to make the attack and the total targeting of innocent people". It is not the place and the time to be provocative but note that extremists all over the world do act the same way, and in that respect your fellow Timothy McVeigh is not different that those you planned and executed these terrible attacks. Terrorists in Europe, in Asia, in the Middle East, .... did use innocents and did target innocent people. So please do not post unfunded statement and let us work alltogether for a better world where or children and grandchildren enjoy peace and serenity in a world of jjustice... and we photographers, each in its on way, will pass on to our children pictures of our world as we see it: a wonderful, but fragile, world. Washington, DC.

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 12, 2001.

Mark:

I think you have completely forgotten about the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. You also should think twice before slandering a religion you obviously know very little about.....

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 12, 2001.

Everyone in my office has been walking around stunned since yesterday. I quail at the thought of the bloodshed to follow. The U.S. must respond, and who knows how long the killing will go on? I think I'm most concerned for the innocent Muslims the world wide who will suffer discrimination and possibly death because of the actions of a fanatic few. Many of us have had a great deal of sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, for instance, and have not been happy with recent events in the Middle East, but the sight of Palestinians dancing in the streets, celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans, will harden the hearts of even the most sympathetic of our citizens. Arafat condemned the attacks, because he knows well that it bodes ill for his people.

As a U.S. citizen, I truly appreciate the condolences of the many people around the world who have posted here. Now the sleeping American giant has been awakened, and woe to the enemies of the United States--they'll be hunted down and killed like the dogs they are, and nothing can stop it now.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edb@unblinkingeye.com), September 12, 2001.

My condolences to all the people who have been directly affected by this horrendous series of events. All America must stand together and be strong and say in one voice, No more terrorism! Those responsible for these events must be held accountable.

-- John Alfred Tropiano (jat18@psu.edu), September 12, 2001.

Please, no I have not forgotten about Oklahoma City. That was an act of terrorism committed by an American against Americans. His target was citizens but he did not use citizens as weapons in that action. If you all will remember, the one most closely linked to that act was at the time a professed nonbeliever. True he was raised Catholic Christian but in his own words, he held no beliefs at that time. Also, I did mention that Fundamentalist Christians give all Christians a bad name. There is probably a somewhat general statement there that any radical fundamentalists will give their respective larger group a bad name.

To clearify my previous point, regardless of what anyone might think about Oklahoma City etc., modern Christianity does not allow killing and does not advocate killing non believers. Modern Judiism in the United States similarly does not allow killing. Modern Islam is basically the same as Islam was in the years 632 - 800 (Christian calander - sorry, I do not know the equivalent dates on the Muslim calander). Modern Islam still believes in the lesser Jihad and believes it is right and necessary to kill those who stand in the way of Islam.

Since I have evidently struck a nerve with some Islamic readers, I am deeply troubled as the Koran mentions that Christians and Jews are also "people of the book" and should be tolerated with no forced conversions.

This quickly gets to be much too broad and deep of a topic for a Leica photographs forum. I have many such conversations with my Muslim friends at a local university. Two are from Iran (Shiites I think) and two others from Saudi Arabia (Suni's I think). These are wonderful people who I am proud to call friends but they are clear on the point that the lesser Jihad is taught as a part of their religeon.

Hopefully, those with tastes sufficiently refined to be drawn to Leica cameras would never be involved with such acts and would equally deplore them.

I think we as rational people on this earth need to stamp out such acts of violence directed against peace loving citizens everywhere. We also need the millions of rational Muslims the world over to pressure their political and religeous leaders to abandon the teachings of the lesser Jihad.

Please, none of this is directed towards Muslims in general. We have Christian terrorists active in Northern Ireland and some in rural areas of the United States. We need to stamp these radicals everywhere.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), September 12, 2001.

The debate about Islam vs. Christianity vs. Judaism is a long one. A religion is more than its texts, but also how people interpret those texts. Let's not let killers off the hook by condemning their religion- condemn their acts, often made in the name of a religion or an idea.

I don't claim to be an expert of the Middle East, but I would imagine that in addition to the difference of religions, you have differences in how the religions are followed and the cultural context of the conflict: liberal secular vs. fundamentalist medieval; European vs. Semitic; global capitalism vs. tribal cultures, imperialism vs. self- determination.

Violent acts tend to polarize- let's not give the killers more power by coming apart.

-- Tse-Sung Wu (tsesung@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.

I feel compelled to contribute again. Acts of violence tend to polarize people, divide them, rather than bring them together.

This has been such a wonderful forum because people from all over the world with a particular photographic interest, aesthetic, vision, can come together. Compared to other places in cyberspace, we have shown ourselves to be passionate about the subject, always helpful, and ever civil. Perhaps Leica users tend to be more interested in the human condition. We all share that interest, and a passion for documenting it. We could all now become our own subjects, as we struggle to come to grips with this tragedy.

Who knows what good will come out of these attacks? We must find it- for the memory of the dead and for all those who will be physically and psychically wounded the rest of their lives.

I think most people believe that, regardless of our religion, culture, history, etc., we want similar things in a civilization. If we allow the acts of these criminals to further divide the living, then they will have done even more damage than they have already done.

I was fortunate enough to spend yesterday evening with my family and close family friends. I hope everyone here can do the same in the days that come. My sister works across from the Pentagon in DC, and is safe.

They have committed a heinous crime. Let's not add to their power by becoming filled with hate, becoming like one of them. These killers lived and died by the idea that differences only lead to tragedy and suffering. At the moment, it may seem so. But let's rise to the challenge and prove them wrong.

Let's stay together.

-- TSW (tsesung@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.

Tse,

I live in DC and all my family is safe. Yesterday afternoon, I took my two sons (1 and 3 year old) for a walk downtown DC because we should not allowed these acts change our way of live, and think. I find your words right and rich. I browsed other forum for a few minutes and was appalled by how shocking some comments can be. Iff one acts or thinks like those terrorists an fanatics, we would just be like them. Really, this forum stands above.

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 12, 2001.

... and we photographers, each in its on way, will pass on to our children pictures of our world as we see it: a wonderful, but fragile, world.

Thank you, Angelique. You have expressed what I have been thinking the whole day. We need to counterweigh the horror we and our children were forced to witness for the past hours. I will feel committed to this goal more than ever before.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 12, 2001.

Joan Baez wrote a song about how various people have committed atrocities, all the while claiming to have "God on our side." This song came to mind for me while reading today's posts. Anyone can rationalize giving in to instincts for aggression, revenge, etc. by deciding they have God on their side. I am glad to hear the president say that we will have to take our time before we will know what to do. We have to get over the initial rage reaction first. It was Joseph Stalin who said "Revenge is best served cold." Meaning, you can't make rational decisions while still in a rage. I don't think the U.S. will do anything stupid, or act without U.N. approval.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), September 12, 2001.

Terrorists like to use religion as their excuse. Despotic rulers claim that they are simply enforcing their religion when they enslave and cruelly persecute their unfortunate subjects. However, truly religious people do not victimize other human beings, they are not murderous cowards consumed with hatred, neither are they sadistic dictators. To associate acts of terror with any religion is a mistake, IMHO, and is an insult to the religion in question. Bigotry is not religion.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.

All this talk of God and prayers. Here is my prayer:

Dear God, Thanks for the universe, it is really cool.

We have a problem here on Earth because we have these different books which all claim to contain Your thoughts and wishes, and these books make one guy want to kill his neighbor and it is getting pretty nasty.

So, God, Lord, could you please let us know which book it is You endorse? Sorry if I'm imposing, but time is sort of the essence, because we're torching some pricey real estate.

If You are too busy, etc., we understand. What's another human catastrophy to a diety like Yourself? But, if we don't hear from You by Friday, could we possibly assume responsibility for our own future? I know, we're children and all, but give us this chance, whadayay say God?

Personal request: if You do show up and there's a photo op I have a Leica. Let me know where?

Thanks, Your pal, Jeff

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), September 13, 2001.

<>

Thank you Ray for putting into words my sentiments. There are fundamentalists and extremists among all of the major religious groups of the world. But they are a tiny minority, and certainly are not representative of the majority by definition. They distort and use religious icons and beliefs to achieve their ends. Their actions should not be used to judge or condemn that relig

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 13, 2001.

Jeff, excellent prayer, I've glued it to the back of my camera.

Ray. truly religious people...? Religion is only a small part of life, along with paying the mortgage, buying weetabix and beating the wife. Saying that truly religious people don't go to war or whatever is like saying that true cyclists don't shout at their kids, or money isn't really important. Truly religious people have always gone to war and for the most indefensible reasons. That is the reality.

Someone said that the perpetrators of this crime are animals not people? So there's hope for the human race after all.

I'm just as shocked as anyone by what happened here, but we have to accept the variety of people's motivations and think historically if we want to live decently rather than exult over the bombing of some ME city next week. Although the script's already written, as far as I can see.

R.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 13, 2001.

Robert,

I had hoped that what I said was clear enough but, just in case it wasn't, I'll try to make it clearer. I was trying to say that people who really believe in and follow a religion are not terrorists. No religion preaches or supports terrorism. A terrorist who claims to be acting in pursuance of a religion is seriously misguided, suffering from delusions or a liar. Religion and terrorism are mutually exclusive. A 'religious terrorist' is an oxymoron.

I'm not saying religious people don't go to war. That's a different issue, IMHO, although I realise we could argue all day about definitions of terrorism. And I envy you being able to get Weetabix; I can only get Weetbix, which is an Australian breakfast cereal that I like but is no substitute for the real thing.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), September 13, 2001.

I'm an Oz, a sometime contributor to this site and a Leica user. I'm a human who has seen the face of lunacy this week and I grieve for our loss of innocence. Not just the awakening to danger but awakening to the world where individual life is irrelevant. I grieve with my family for all of your families and I ask the same as the rest of the civilized world:"God Bless America" and God have mercy on us all. Peter Phillips

-- Peter Phillips (peterph@senet.com.au), September 13, 2001.

Despite being so far away here in New Zealand, I extend my hand and heart out to any and all affected by this weeks tragedy. My thoughts are with you all. Let us pray for wise decisions and warm hearts.

God speed and luck to all rescue workers who are now faced with the reality of this nightmare.

Peace to us all.

Wayne

-- Wayne Haag (wayne@wetafx.co.nz), September 13, 2001.

I'm still in a state of disbelief regarding the terror we all have seen on Television for the last two days. I have a hard time to accept that it has happened, it feels unreal. I feel sorry for all who were killed or hurt or knew people that were.

I lived in New York state for two years and is now back in my homecountry, Sweden. Also here people are people are shocked.

I have to say something about the media coverage. All in all I think it has been done very well, and quite sensible. In order to understand that this horror has actually occured we need to see the pictures again and again. However, there have also been examples of what I suspect is speculation in tragedy. I speak mainly of the photage of celebrating people on the street in palestinian refugee camps. I believe, from listening to radioreporters, that the photographers/newsteams were actively searching for people celebrating the terror-attack. Listening to radio the impression is that the "celebration" was quite rare. Amongst the millions of people who live in the middle-east the newsteams searched out the very few that went out on the streets and did "their stunts" in front of a TV- camera. If this indeed were as rare as the radiobroadcasts have hinted on, it is a very sad thing to give it the coverage it has recieved. Also, the words (as I remember them) of a palestinian professor who was devastated about the terror attack stuck in my mind; "The Street may have in some cases reacted with demonstrations of happiness about this terrorist attack, but the people anywhere should never be judged by how the Street reacts. The Street is never subtle, the Street is not thinking, the Street is not a mirror of the people in the country". Or something to that effect he said.

The Americans are as a whole strong people and I believe that they will overcome this act of terrorism in time, but these are truly sad days.

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), September 13, 2001.

Yestarday declarations of US President Bush, about tuesday incidents, saing those were not acts of terrorism, but acts of war, and the constant spectations in the news of the monumental strong back response of united states to this attacks, leaves my mind blank of future solutions to our civilisation´s development of agrees acording to our cultural diferences.

Lutz; thanks for the oportunity you gave to this forum in this posting, we have had the oportunity to share feeling of anger and pain as well as love and compasion.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 13, 2001.

I can't believe the one guy on the LUG who pleaded with the list to stop the "terrorism thread!" How impersonal and clinical can one be. The world is shocked, and the Leica Forum has open arms for discussion. Leica Photography means a hell of a lot more than pressing a stupid button.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), September 13, 2001.

Tony,

Again I want to say how happy I am to have found this site a year and a half ago. This single thread, with messages from all over the world, from people of many different religions is the most civil and cathartic that I have seen. The Leica Customer forum in contrast is being used as a sounding board for radical thinkers, pointing blame and using contrived logic to show why the attacks were warranted. I shall delete that site from my "favorites" list.

To everyone here: Thank you all for the adult, level headed dialog. Even when we disagree, it is in a civil manner. We are not sheep, we have our own minds. A closed mind is like a full cup... it is useless because you can't put anything else in it. As I read through this thread, (and the many others about cameras), I will keep an open mind and hopefully learn something.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), September 13, 2001.

Another heart-felt thanks to all of those who sent condolences to us Yanks.

But don't grieve just for us. Among the dead and missing (WTC and airliners both) 100+ British, 100 +/- Japanese, 50-100 Canadian, 50 Bangladeshi, 90+ Aussie, 20+ Korean, 11 Mexican, 6 Colombian, 2 Swiss, 8 Italian, 3 Lebanese, 2 El Salvadoran, and an untold number of others. 5 entire Chinese firms from the Towers haven't checked in yet.

Whoever it was may have thought they were attacking a symbol of the U.S. But it was the World they killed.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), September 13, 2001.

I was unable to log on till now. I wanted to add something while it is still daytime in Europe, but nuts, I missed it. Over the last few days I have found it more and more difficult to turn on the TV, those images, those planes, over and over now they penetrate and explode right inside my head.

But late last night I turned on the TV anyway, and saw the amazing sight of the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, the band playing our anthem, The Star Spangled Banner. It took me by surprize, I recognized the setting, but not the melody right away, though I've heard it thousands of times.

The ceremony, the gesture and symbolism were sublime, reassuring, perfect. Thank you.

We should do more of this. We should play each others' anthems, maybe even learn the words. We are clearly all in this together, one way or the other.

By the way, the old song sounded wonderful, played with dignity, weight and purpose. We have developed this unfortunate custom over here of mangling the tune. Performers, for some reason, feel obliged to sing out of tune, out of time, and to embellish the melody till she comes off like a tricked out whore. Thanks for the good example.

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), September 14, 2001.

I want to thank all of my international friends for their kinds words. I heard part of Tony Blair's address to Parliment and it brought tears to my eyes. It is a small world and we must cooperate for the better of all. Peace and God bless you all.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), September 14, 2001.

My deepest sympathies from Greece to all people and their families affected by the attack on the United States. I wish this was the last criminal act all over the world causing the life of innocent people. I like this dialogue. I believe that now we learn more about the life and the world, the people, the religions, the terrorists. I agree with Al and I believe that in order to make better pictures or simply to make photography we do not need only information about cameras and lenses but also information about the people, the life and the world.

-- Dimitris Kioseoglou (kosefoto@otenet.gr), September 14, 2001.

I haven't checked this forum for a few days. I am shocked and saddened by the events of this week, but I'm almost equally shocked and saddened by the hate and bigotry and bellicose reactions that I've seen over the last few days in other places on the web. I feel so much better having read this thread.

THANK YOU TONY for the Leica forum!

Joe

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), September 14, 2001.

I was doing some development work for UNESCO in a remote part of the northern Philippines when I heard the news. We rushed to the local mayor's office and crowded around a TV watching the CNN and BBC. Quoting Yasir Arafat's words, it was unbelievable; we couldn't believe what we saw on TV. My colleagues and I, controlling our anger and disbelief, reached for our cellphones and frantically called people who had friends and relatives working in New York to see if they were all right (thank God they were). One local Filipino guy was supposed to report to work on the fateful day in the restaurant on the top floor of the World Trade Centre, but he got a call from his colleagues two days earlier telling him to stay put for a couple of days as the restaurant's renovation wasn't ready. That poor guy was so shocked by the news (with implications on the lives of his friends and colleagues) that he wasn't sure he could return to New York any more. Watching the newsclips of the unfolding disaster brought out the extremes of emotions in me--I found myself quietly praying for the innocent victims even though I wasn't a religious person, and I found myself cursing the people responsible even though I'm not a hateful person. My consolation is that the world has seemed to stand united against the terrorist bastards responsible, and they are not going to get away with what they have done.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), September 15, 2001.

The problem with getting back at the "terrorist bastards" is that there are only two weapons against terror: prosperity and justice for the oppressed on the one hand, and terror on the other. Unfortunately the west's response seems to be to choose the latter. The war against terrorism cannot be won. Terrorism is the weapon of the disposessed and does not present conventional military targets. I'm afraid that the US response to this atrocity will be no more than a string of similar atrocities, which will only raise the stakes. Good business for arms manufacturers and no doubt the markets will rally briefly before the real cost of this conflict becomes apparent.

This event is a historical opportunity for the west to review its interventionist and anti-people policies of the last five decades, to realise that their (our) actions have consequences. In the heat of the moment, the opportunity will be missed and we will enter a new era of global conflict.

I'm not optimistic.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 16, 2001.

With very close relatives who were far too close for comfort to the horror, I am not sure I agree, Rob, if you are talking about the terrorists who planned the plane crashes (aside from the suicides). Only violence against them might prevent them from taking life again.

But I do agree with the general proposition.

On the web, the playwright August Wilson and a playwright have a conversation.

I paraphrase heavily, and shall provide a link when I find it...

The critic says-of the terrorists and the societies they are from- that "now we are forced to live in their dream".

Wilson nails it on the head when he replies "no, it is that are being forced to live in our dream", a dream which leaves them no room to live in their own dream.

At a gut level, this is very hard to argue with. And at a gut level, no matter how great my shock at a personal level, assertions of "pure evil", "destruction of civilization" (something that you could equally assert about the Rwanda killings or bombings of Cambodia, as someone else pointed out), and "madmen" do not ring true...

There were just too many terrorists, well trained, purposeful, with families, living in America, but willing to give up their lives, for that explanation to hold true, as it might for a Ted Kaczynski. These are the lashings out of extreme segments of whole peoples who feel inexorably cornered, with their civilisation coming to an end for no good reason.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), September 16, 2001.

Mani, no doubt violence is a necessary tool against certain people, but that is a police matter, military intervention is not a suitable response in such a situation, that was my point. Of course I agree with you - I generally do ;-).

The Wilson quote is excellent, mail me the url if you find it.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 16, 2001.

Rob,

Thanx for your clear words. After days of trying to grasp where these tremendous acts sprang from I can only fully agree with what you say. There sure is a much deeper motivation to the extremists' terror than our establishment's rethoric wants us to believe. The terroristic acts have fully succeeded at least in one sense so far: there is plenty of background information available these days, if you carefully select the sources. And I rub my eyes in disbelieve - how could I, how could the western world underestimate the menace of international terrorism to such an extent - and, moreover, ignore the obvious reasons for it. Religious fanatism is a mere means for rebellion to manifest itself in the most extreme of all forms - while humiliation and despair (for as subjective as they may be experienced) as well as exploitation are widespread and common at its source.

The past days I have been thinking about my own state of depression and that of people around me. All of us are living in a very privileged world. Problems of any kind suddenly seem ridiculous compared to not only those of the thousands' of last week's victims and their relatives - but also compared to those of the vast majority of the global population.

Talking photography, leave alone Leica, doesn't feel quite right for me these days...

Just as you, Rob, I'm not optimistic, either. When I see and hear the president of the United States I see a person with limited gifts and limited options under pressure. Just another slave to a warlord's rethoric and a narrow logic that doesn't permit real apprehension of what is at stake, globally speaking. And his allies aren`t much of an alternative - how could they possibly be.

If I was religious, I would pray now. For wisdom.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 16, 2001.

My thanks to all of the posters on this forum! I never met any of you personally and yet I have felt a closeness to you this week. Sharing our grief, anger, frustration, disbelief, and hope has helped me try to deal with this unbelievable act of terrorism. I keep waiting to hear some newsperson say "And this concludes Orson Welles's latest thriller from Hollywood". But this is REAL, although I still have difficulty grasping the truth of that. Thanks again to all. I look forward to sharing better times and happier thoughts with you. LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), September 16, 2001.

After seeing that plane crashing against the twin towers hundreds of times, and searching into the news hopping to find a GOOD new out of all this, I spent this last weekend with loved ones, now reading your last coments on this posting by our friend Lutz, and coments by Rob and Mani; I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?; here in Mexico we are so worried about the economic disaster this may bring, and of course the war, we may feel far from this phisicaly, but how far can any one be, I just don´t know what to think now, every thing seems to be up to, but up to who? and up to what? Shall I go to bed now? and I´ve been having this strange dreams lately? I don´t like the images that medias bring us to see this days, they are humanly poor, but I know this is also a work of edition, not just photographers. well good nigth; here in Mazatlán Mexico time is 12:39 a.m. monday 17th

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 17, 2001.

I received a mail today, some thoughts on western options from the viewpoint of an Afghan emigrant. Read it if you care, I think it's worthwhile.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 17, 2001.

Lutz,

I care, and it certainly is worthwhile. Thanks.

Mike

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), September 17, 2001.

I appreciate the truth and pathos of that link.

It's so tempting to want clear cut answers with clear cut action - NOW! As with most worthwhile endeavours however we know in our hearts that it's never that simple. The contents of that link make that plain

The maturity of response demanded of the US by this aweful tragedy is enormous (and correspondingly painful) and in my opinion will be the difference between revenge and justice. The response of the US will indicate whether we are condemned to repeating the mistakes of history or transcending them.

The USA is a great nation and that greatness is now being put to the test.

Pray for wisdom.

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushomw.com.au), September 17, 2001.

ARGENTINA said five of its nationals were missing.

AUSTRALIA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead. Another 69 who were in the vicinity of the World Trade Center at the time of the attacks were unaccounted for.

BANGLADESH said at least 50 Bangladeshis were killed in the carnage at the World Trade Center, where many worked in restaurants and offices.

BELGIUM said 60 of its nationals present in New York at the time of the attack, including four workers in the WTC, were still missing.

BRAZIL said 26 of its nationals were missing.

BRITAIN said nearly 100 of its citizens were confirmed dead. Prime Minister Tony Blair said Sunday that the death toll of Britons, probably 200 to 300, would be the highest in any attack since the end of World War II.

CANADA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead and between 50 and 100 others were still missing.

CHINA said that three Chinese nationals died and another was missing. A man and woman, both in their 60s, died aboard the plane that was sent into the side of the Pentagon. A 41-year-old Chinese person was missing.

DENMARK'S foreign ministry said around 20 of its nationals were unaccounted for.

EGYPT said one of its nationals was confirmed dead and at least three others were missing.

FRANCE said a small number of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said no French dead have yet been confirmed.

GERMANY has compiled a provisional list of more than 700 nationals missing since the attacks, but a foreign ministry spokesman said the actual number was much lower and the list of missing persons was rapidly shrinking by the hour.

HONG KONG said 17 people were missing, four of them working in New York and 12 living there. One was visiting the city.

INDONESIA said one of its citizens died on one of the four hijacked planes and another of its citizens was missing.

ITALY said 57 Italians were missing on the basis of data supplied by its consulate in New York. Most worked in the World Trade Center or lived in the area. The foreign ministry said 29 people with Italian names were among the injured in hospital, but their nationality had not been confirmed.

JAPAN said two Japanese died on the hijacked planes, and that another 22 who were in the World Trade Center were missing.

MALAYSIA said seven of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were missing.

PAKISTAN said only one Pakistani has been confirmed dead in the attacks but that figure is certain to rise. A government spokesman said around 650 Pakistani nationals worked in the World Trade Center.

THE PHILIPPINES said two Filipinos were confirmed dead and 115 were missing.

SOUTH AFRICA said at least one South African was presumed dead: businessman Edmund Glazer, a 41-year-old immigrant to the United States who telephoned his wife from aboard the first aircraft flown into the World Trade Center.

The Pretoria government said it was investigating reports of eight South Africans who may have been inside the World Trade Center, in the areas immediately surrounding it, or aboard the flights that destroyed the twin towers, and of a further 16 South Africans reported to have been in the areas near the disaster sites in New York and suburban Washington.

SPAIN said it was without news of nine of its citizens, but declined to describe them as officially missing. Press reports said they were seven people living in New York and two tourists.

SOUTH KOREA said 19 of its nationals were missing.

SWEDEN said one of its citizens was missing.

SWITZERLAND said four of its citizens were killed: two on board one of the planes that smashed into the World Trade Center, and two who were in the towers. Another two who were in the vicinity were missing.

TURKEY said it was tracking 131 people still unaccounted for. A total of 326 Turks had been traced alive out of 457 reported missing. Around 500 Turks worked in the World Trade Center.

TAIWAN said nine Taiwanese were missing.......................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 17, 2001.

Dear Muhammad, here in Mexico we are counting hundreds among travelers on the crashed planes and workers in the twin towers, we still don´t know the exact number, and I belive we´ll never know, for sure we are all involved in this tragedy.

Lutz; thank´s again for linking us to that letter, always fundamental to see all the points of view, let´s hope this war goes to whom deserve to pay for it and not inocent people, there were already a lot of inocent people that had paid, for free.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 17, 2001.

After the shock, after the sadness, after all these great exchanges we had on this thread I am getting scared. As a European living in the US, I am shocked by the lack of analyses and historical perspectives in the US Media. I encourage all to read some very good articles on The Economist, The Financial Times, or, for those who know a bit of French, Le Monde. For example I have not seen a single US Newspapers exploring the role the CIA played in financing and training the Taliban and Bin Laden. A Belgian weekly magazine has on its front page "Bin Laden: ex-CIA Agent". It is a crucial time to scrutinize 20, 30 years of US Foreign policy and see how it may have contributed to the rise of Islamic extremism. For many decades, the US has supported non-democratic governments, first in the fight against the Soviet Union, then to secure Oil supply, and these governments have been known to support and harbor terrorists organisations. A word we hear a lot is "War", "America will strike back". America has to strike back but without a deep reflection on its foreign policy and a change of attitude, any military action will throw more people in the arms of terrorists organizations the like of Bin Laden ... In the past months, the leaders of Jordan and Egypt have sent messages to Bush to be more involved in the conflict in the Middle East and there is a mounting radicalisation in the Streets of Amman or Cairo. We do not want the stability of these moderate countries to be endangered by a few who would take advantage of the situation. These are some reflections...and I don t know what other people here think about it, but the American responses should have many facets (military, political, economical,...)

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 17, 2001.

"I wander how you fellows from Europe feel about it?"

Obviously everyone in Europe is shocked by the scale of the loss of life. But many people see it as something that has been coming for a long time.

Despite the opportunistic attempts to jump into the breach by the Italians and British (who have always been America's stooges in Europe anyway (I am a British citizen living in Italy myself)), I think many people here are worried by the prospect of an unaccountable, belligerent US taking unilateral action against civilians in some of the poorest countries in the world, which can only lead to an escalation of conflict worldwide. The US has repeatedly shown its contempt for the UN and its readiness to resort to violence, and this does not augur well.

I think many Europeans see the seemingly uncritical US support for Israel as being at the root of this conflict (alongside its interventions in nearly all the Middle Eastern "rogue" states) and want to see a change in policy in this area.

I suspect that if you were to poll Europeans about what should be the response to this event, they would come down more on the side of mediation and negotiation than military intervention. But of course, no-one believes that that is going to happen.

As for myself, I was planning to emigrate to India myself early next year but I believe the whole region will be destabilised by the almost certain prospect of US bombardment of Afghanistan. So the travel plans are indefinitely postponed...

As a disclaimer, I would just say that I'm not particularly anti- American, but as a European I'm open to both sides of the argument, while deploring _all_ intemperate violence. It is worrying to me that America combines its vast power with the provincialism of its policy makers. This couldn't have happened at a worse time.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 18, 2001.

Incidentally, I'm very impressed by how moderate the comment on this list has been. It's hard to have a non-American perspective on the internet and I think this forum is remarkable for the balance of opinions that come up on it. It's a tribute to Tony and to all participants.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), September 18, 2001.

Last night I had a thought - what if the US (instead of investing billions of $ in what is likely to become a Third World War) "bombed" Afganistan and all nations where they suspect and/or identify terrorists' coves with food, medical supplies, humanitarian and non- profit economical help - while still banning and prosecuting terrorism with political and legal means. This would save millions of bucks and souls and it would definitely eradicate the terrorism it presently evokes and will multiply with a war.

Could anybody please point out the downsides...?!

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 18, 2001.

Hmmm, Lutz, definitely a good question. This is the 100th answer here, give me another 2000 years and maybe I'll come up with a good comment to your last contribution.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), September 18, 2001.

Lutz,

There is not a civilized society on earth that hasn't already "banned" and made illegal the hijacking of innocents on airplanes, crashing them into innocent people in buildings, and committing mass murder. It is against all laws everywhere. I'm not sure what other legal and political remedies remain.

A "Marshall Plan" for the middle east is a terrific idea. The main problem is the corrupt and despotic leadership in many of these countries. Getting the goods to the people in need is very difficult in such militaristic regimes. Many of these countries are fabulously wealthy already. They "won't" allow political opposition and would see an aid package to their people as subservsive to their governments.

Finally, those international naysayers about the patience and temperance of the USA and it's allies should acknowledge the restraint already shown. Israel would have already used massive force.

As has been pointed out above, people from all over the world were murdered. I hope the large casualty count doesn't numb use to the reality that every person killed was a father, son, mother, daughter. The war to be waged is on those responsible, and those who aid and abet them. The media in the USA has overstated nature of the enemy. But remember, their job is to sell ad's, not necessarily present all sides of the "truth."

-- David S Smith (dssmith3@rmci.net), September 18, 2001.

Bombing afghanistan now is useless as there is nothing left to be bombed: The Soviets did a good job in the past. Bombing the training camps of Bin Laden has already been done by the US...and it was easy as the US knew exactly where they were, because they were build by the CIA. A ground war from Pakistan is unlikely as it would destabilize Pakistan and weakened its border with India...and you could expect troubles, to say the least, in Kasmir. And do not forget that Pakistan and India are nuclear power! The only wise military solution would be to precisely locate Bin Laden, send a limited number of highly trained soldiers to capture him and leave Afghanistan immediately...but that is not likely this will happen that way. So the retrained of the US shows that the options are limited, that there are so far no evidence that Bin Laden is guilty, and even less evidence that a government is behind the attacks. So Lutz proposal make plenty of sense: help the people overcome their despair, their sense of no-future, and their feeling they have nothing to lose. We should have no illusion, responding to violence by violence will lead to more violence. Ariel Sharon wanted security before peace ... he got none of them.

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 18, 2001.

My list of missing (see above) is of course incomplete. My apologies to citizens of countries accidentally omitted from that report. Recent news reports now indicate citizens of at least 62 countries present in the list of 5,500+ missing persons. This is a tragedy for the entire world. Like many others, I too am heartened by the mostly moderate tone of the postings on this list. There is no reason why we should not all be able to live together in peace as citizens of Planet Earth. Amen!.......

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 18, 2001.

Amen, Amen Amen.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 18, 2001.

Lieut. Ronald Kerwin NYFD Squad 288 is among the missing firefighters. Kerwin is also the Chief of the Levittown Volunteer Fire Department on Long Island. Please pray for his safe return. As of Sept.18, they have found signs of life in the rubble and hopefully more people will be found alive. Please pray for a miracle.

-- Donald Wansor (wansor@opltonline.net), September 18, 2001.

In case you want to sign a petition for peace - I just did.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 19, 2001.

Thanks Lutz, so did I. "give peace a chance"

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), September 19, 2001.

Me too. Thanks again for everything you have managed to do, Lutz.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), September 19, 2001.

Well done Lutz! thank´z!

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 19, 2001.

I have done it too. Thanks, Lutz!

-- Victor Randin (ved@enran.com.ua), September 19, 2001.

I signed too, thanks for the link.

Now to some rather amazing news. The scenes with celebrating Palestinians were discussed above. Now the German magazine Stern have found out that the pictures were fabricated by a news team. Well, you may ask, was this an Israelic news team? No, it was a Palestinian news team! The Palestinian news team (who must have been complete idiots in this case) for some reason decided to fabricate news of celebrating Palestinians. So they handed out candy ("Kanafe") to people (kids, a woman who had walked 11 km to sell grapes, and others) and asked them to show signs of celebration. The journalist at Stern magazine was able to track down the woman in her rural village and asked her what she was celebrating in front of the camera. The answer: "I celebrated that I had been given Kanafe". She did at the time not know of the terror in USA.

The question now is, why did a Palestinian news team feel that it was a good idea to fabricate something like this (and draw Arafats rage upon themselves and the worlds astonished eyes on the Palestinian people)? The damage they did to their own people is huge, the images will remain in our minds for generations.

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), September 20, 2001.

Thanks for the insight provided, Peter! I had been wondering all the time why the cheerful "Palestinian" reaction that has been reproposed by television over and over again (re-echoing in the print media!) consisted of so little footage of just a handful of children. A dreadful lesson in the demagogic use and abuse of images. History teaches us that more than once wars were built upon lies and propaganda.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 20, 2001.

First news I have of this fake; I just can´t belive this could happend, at the same time it is such a surprise.

One of the most shocking imagen of that day was an hospital like hall, with a big tv screen showing this images of people celebrating and beside this beds with injured people; and this in the news on CNN, enough reasons to demand a war and the strongest revange.

>History teaches us than more than once wars were build upon lies and propaganda< on this I can only agree with you Lutz.

Again what is the cost of a healthy economy, cultural diferences or economical similitudes*, this can explains me why here at a leica forum, where discusions are based on a basic system and the personal posibilities of each one on this small universe, makes us free into a media. Well hope I can explain my thougths.

*not sure if an english word or only spanish.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

First line should read >at the same time it is NOT such a surprise<

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001.

"Similitudes" is indeed an English word. Have misplaced my Spanish dictionary and do not know if it is also a Spanish word. In English, it means "image, likeness, counterpart, etc.". It is an appropriate word for a Leica photographer to use. I think we, as photographers, share many common similitudes, no matter that we may live in different parts of the world. LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), September 20, 2001.

Regarding the footage of palestinian joy, I heard that CNN used 1991 footage. See http://www.chicago.indymedia.org/front.php3? article_id=4395&group=webcast.

Less credible is a story in a newspaper in Finland that Israeli secret serive may have been involved in the attacks. I do not believe that but if we have some friends from Finland, they can tell us more about this newspaper. The link is : http://www.vaikuttava.net/article.php?sid=1112. I signed the petition. Thanks Lutz.

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 20, 2001.

The footage of the Palestinian celebration appears to be genuine. The rumour that it was a hoax is a hoax itself...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101aa.htm

-- Paul Chefurka (paul_chefurka@pmc-sierra.com), September 20, 2001.

Angelique,

Thanks for keeping this thread alive. In my Swiss newspaper I read about the recent edition of The New Yorker, said to be most interesting as it publishes Magnum photos of the desaster and aftermath along with articles by American writers and intellectuals. Although the photos are critizied as being too beautiful for the occasion I would love to judge by myself. (This could even start a most interesting thread on the beauty of horror in news photography...) Since it seems to be most difficult to get hold of a copy here, could you try to get and save one for me? I would gladly cover the expense and shipment.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 20, 2001.

Lutz: Sure. I will get a copy for you. On top, there is a great article by Susan Sontag that was first published in Le Monde. Here is the French text for those familiar with :

• MIS A JOUR LE 17.09.01 | 18h23 POINT DE VUE Regardons la réalité en face, par Susan Sontag Pour une Américaine et New-Yorkaise épouvantée et triste, l'Amérique n'a jamais semblé être plus éloignée de la reconnaissance de la réalité qu'en face de la monstrueuse dose de réalité du mardi 11 septembre.

Le fossé qui sépare ce qui s'est passé et ce qu'on doit en comprendre, d'une part, et la véritable duperie et les radotages satisfaits colportés par pratiquement tous les personnages de la vie publique américaine et les commentateurs de télévision, d'autre part, cette séparation est stupéfiante et déprimante.

Les voix autorisées à suivre les événements semblent s'être associées dans une campagne destinée à infantiliser le public. Qui a reconnu qu'il ne s'agissait pas d'une "lâche" agression contre la "civilisation" ou la "liberté", ou l'"humanité", ou encore le "monde libre", mais d'une agression contre les Etats-Unis, la superpuissance mondiale autoproclamée, une agression qui est la conséquence de certaines actions et de certains intérêts américains ? Combien d'Américains sont au courant de la poursuite des bombarde- ments américains en Irak ? Et puisque l'on emploie le mot "lâchement", ne devrait-on pas l'appliquer à ceux qui tuent hors du cadre des représailles, du haut du ciel, plutôt qu'à ceux qui acceptent de mourir pour en tuer d'autres ?

Quant au courage - une vertu moralement neutre -, quoi qu'on puisse dire de ceux qui ont perpétré le massacre de mardi, ce n'étaient pas des lâches.

Les dirigeants américains veulent absolument nous faire croire que tout va bien. L'Amérique n'a pas peur. Notre résolution n'est pas brisée. "Ils" seront pourchassés et punis (qui que soit ce "ils"). Nous avons un président-robot qui nous assure que l'Amérique a toujours la tête haute.

Tout un éventail de personnages publics, violemment opposés à la politique menée à l'étranger par cette administration, se sent apparemment libre de ne rien dire d'autre que : nous sommes tous unis derrière le président Bush.

On nous a affirmé que tout allait bien ou presque, même s'il s'agissait d'un jour qui resterait marqué par le sceau de l'infamie, et même si l'Amérique était maintenant en guerre. Pourtant, tout ne va pas bien. Et ce n'est pas Pearl Harbor. Il va falloir beaucoup réfléchir, peut-être le fait-on à Washington et ailleurs, sur le colossal échec de l'espionnage et du contre-espionnage américains, sur les choix possibles de la politique étrangère américaine, en particulier au Moyen-Orient, et sur ce qui constitue un programme de défense militaire intelligent.

Mais ceux qui occupent des fonctions officielles, ceux qui y aspirent et ceux qui en ont occupé autrefois ont décidé - avec la complicité volontaire des principaux médias - qu'on ne demanderait pas au public de porter une trop grande part du fardeau de la réalité. Les platitudes satisfaites et unanimement applaudies du Congrès d'un parti soviétique semblaient méprisables. L'unanimité de la rhétorique moralisatrice, destinée à masquer la réalité, débitée par les responsables américains et les médias au cours de ces derniers jours, est indigne d'une démocratie adulte.

Les responsables américains, et ceux qui voudraient le devenir, nous ont fait savoir qu'ils considèrent que leur tâche n'est qu'une manipulation : donner confiance et gérer la douleur. La politique, la politique d'une démocratie - qui entraîne des désaccords et qui encourage la sincérité - a été remplacée par la psychothérapie. Souffrons ensemble. Mais ne soyons pas stupides ensemble. Un peu de conscience historique peut nous aider à comprendre ce qui s'est exactement passé, et ce qui peut continuer à se passer.

"Notre pays est fort", ne cesse- t-on de nous répéter. Pour ma part, cela ne me console pas vraiment. Qui peut douter que l'Amérique soit forte ? Mais l'Amérique ne doit pas être que cela.

Susan Sontag est écrivain.Traduit de l'anglais (Etats-Unis) par Jean Guiloineau. © Susan Sontag.

• ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 18.09.01

You can access it also via www.lemonde.fr. The New York Times appreciates Susan Sontag and she publishes a lot in there. I was told the New York Times refused to publish this article (but again is it true, is it rumor?).

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 20, 2001.

The New Yorker : Unfortunately the New Yorker does not have a well developed web site and you will not find their articles and pictures.

-- abischop (abischop@earthlink.net), September 20, 2001.

Ca fait presque 10 ans que je lis un article en francais. Et ecrit par Susan Sontag, en plus!

If you'd like Sontag and others' thoughts in the NYer, click here

BTW, the Mary Anne Weaver article on Bin Laden is quite interesting.

A number of alternative websites and news outlets can be found on one of our local alternative weeklies.

I certainly appreciate the non-US perspectives!

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), September 20, 2001.

Dear Forum Participants,

It was inevitable, the seeping into our forum of differing political belief regarding the tragedy. Expressing sorrow, anger, or fear because of the tragedy is one thing, but expressing your belief in what to do about it is completely different and should not be posted to this forum. I don't mean to say that one way of thinking is correct and one is not because it's not my job to do that. The best thing I can do is repeat the words of one person who wrote to me privately: "This forum should be about Leica Photography...Enough is enough." and I really have to agree with that person.

So while I do appreciate that everyone is angry, sad, nervous, and generally quite upset at this tragedy, I really do have to insist that we keep the topic on photography from now on.

I really really really hope that you understand my position. If in case you do not and are angry at me for this, PLEASE write to me at rowlett@alaska.net and tell me.

Thank you.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), September 20, 2001.

Tony,

I don't know if you want to allow this post to be added to the thread I started ten days ago and which for obvious reasons appears to have been the one with the most active (and presumably passive) resonance so far.

I, too, have been contacted privately by the same member and if it is because of his intervention that the thread is to be closed down, I would like to answer him before that.

Dear fellow Leicaist,

I didn't mean to offend. I didn't mean to be "crude, stupid" nor did I mean to "dishonor the memories" of the victims of September 11th's attack.

When I started the thread minutes after the first news trickled into my conciousness it was because I was deeply shocked, as I wrote. I was reaching out across the ocean to grasp what was going on there, in the heads and hearts of fellow forum members in the States and all over the world. The thread has provided some sort of relief to me. And if my English is good enough for that to understand, it seems that I'm not the only one in this.

But with the shock still present, the political implications have started to become more evident and imminent. And, as sad as it is, their prospected consequences are going far beyond the lifes wasted last week. The revenge declared by president Bush and more or less heavy-heartedly supported by his allies is likely to cost much more souls - among allied as well as Eastern troops and civilians. And it would be amazingly naiv to hold that the upcoming military conflict was a purely national and not an international matter. 09/11th's death toll listed by one of the members clearly underlines that the attack inevitably meant and was looking for international conflict.

I agree that the nature of the inherent concern is not a Leica matter in the first degree, as I pointed out from the very start. Nevertheless, I highly appreciate the highly educated and informed level at which this thread has been evolving, maybe due to the generally more sophisticated knowledge and taste of Leicaists. Nobody is forced to read on and follow it, while everybody is free to contribute even the most contradictory informations, beliefs, concerns. Therefore I would regret if it was banned or closed down now. And on this occasion I wish to thank Tony and all of the forum members who have taken active and passive interest so far.

BTW, contributing a link to a petition that is imploring the heads of several national as well as international entities not to throw bombs on civilians, risking a nuclear war, but try to find more precise means to eradicate terrorism is not my definition of a "far left" political position, as you suggest.

Call it nonsense. But I strongly believe that whoever calls him- or herself a photographer should not close his eyes now. Nor ears, nor mouth.

Yours, Lutz

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), September 21, 2001.

I respectfully submit that:

1. No body is stopping conversation about photography.

2. The freedom we cherish encourages intelligent and respectful expression of different views and beliefs. This is what we have seen in good measure here.

3. This thread has addressed moderately and I believe respectfully one of the most important and tragic events in recent history in which many of my own countrymen died and which now involves the world community. It's sad if there are some who, for whatever reason, don't want others to "think beyond the square" of Leica photography in this forum at such a time.

5. I do not intend making any 'political' contributions but have been interested in the contributions of others. I would prefer we err on the side of allowing rather than limiting discussion.

6. In Tony Rowlett's rather well chosen and understandably emotional words: "Leica photography means a hell of a lot more than pressing a stupid button"

-- Tim Gee (twg@optushome.com.au), September 21, 2001.

Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing. Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago. Where have all the flowers gone? Young girls picked them, every one. Oh, when will they ever learn? Oh, when will they ever learn?

-- Pete Seeger

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), September 21, 2001.

I must respond to Lutz, since he has chosen to make my private communication public. This will be my first and last comment on this particular thread.

Yes, I definitiely believe that you didn't mean to offend or dishonor. Perhaps the term "naive" would have been better. And Angelique, who quotes the work of Susan Sontag, surely does represent the extreme left. Make no mistake, Susan Sontag hates the USA and what it represents, but chooses to live here. Read up on her background. First of all, no one up to and including President Bush are suggesting targeting civilians with bombs. You are misrepresenting the position of the President, the Congress, the Department of Defense, and the vast vast majority of Americans. That would being us down to the level of the terrorists. However, these terrorists live among civilian populations purposely to avoid reprisals. Everything will be done to avoid civilian casualties, there will be a small number that is unavoidable. The governments that knowingly sponsor these terrorists, offer them support aid and comfort, and hide them among their own people should be the ones you address your letters to, not President Bush. Osama Bin Laden already has several outstanding indictments and international fugitive warrants (legal documents) for previous terrorist acts. The country that hides him (Afghanistan) has failed to honor these documents. Your idea about sending food and medical supplies to these countries in order to stop future terrorist acts is truly offensive, and very naive, though you probably didn't mean it that way. Now we know that over 6300 individuals were killed in the WTC attack. It greatly troubles and offends that you say we should bribe others not to become people that are purely evil. That is not the job of Americans or the US goverment. Providing for the needs of those people is the responsibility of their governments, who instead choose to support and enable terrorism. By the way, America sends out more foreign aid each year than every other nation in the world combined. It dishonors the memories of those that died in this horrendous attack to say that our response should be to send aid to the places fromwhen they came. I for one would absolutely refuse to have my tax dollars sent to governments that sponsor and hide terrorists. I believe that the vast majority of Americans think the same way. And it is naive in the extreme to believe that these attacks occurred simply because other peoples are poor. Osama Bin Laden himself is a billionaire former Saudi prince The information is now coming out that many of the people in the US involved in these attacks were middle class Americans. No, we were attacked not because of poverty, but because the people who did this hate America, hate Western values, and hate the freedom we enjoy here. It is hatred of the US and the Western world in general that is the basis for the attacks. These terrorists (at least the planners) are truly cowards. They hide among innocent civilians to avoid reprisals. They attack innocent people who can't defend themselves. Notice that they do not attack our military forces, who can and will fight back, but they instead attack buildingsof helpless people. When they did attack a military target, it was a barracks of sleeping soldiers.

Finally, President Bush never used the term "revenge" as you state. he has used words like "justice" and "freedom will be defended". How dare you put words into the President's mouth. If you must describe what he said, do it correctly.

This is precisely the reason I believe this thread should be shut off. People have very strong views about this subject, which has absoultely nothing to do with Leica.

-- Eliot M. Rosen (erosen@lij.edu), September 21, 2001.

My concern comes from the fact that after a while it is nearly impossible to keep from expressing ONLY sadness, anger, and all of our necessary emotions. Political views are simply bound to enter the discussion. The possibility of such views driving away participants who might become deeply offended on account of them, but who might otherwise be active with - and helpful to - the forum, I think is too immediate.

The title of the thread is "I'm Deeply Shocked." I think it is appropriate to discuss ones emotions on the forum, but I feel that offering a "route" for the world or for the United States to take is not appropriate no matter how obscure any such reference is (in only one thread, for example) and no matter how politically "correct" it may seem.

As has been pointed out, the Leica Photography culture is diverse and extends into many nations. A forum called "The U.S. Military" or "Republicans for Response" or even "I Love Barbie Dolls," would be better for political discussion.

What I'm trying to prevent from happening has happened in the past to an ugly degree in many other forums and lists on a variety of subjects, not just our recent tragedy.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), September 21, 2001.

Eliot, If having a open and critical attitude towards this "war" is considered to be far left then so be it, but then even conservative newspapers or magazines (Financial Times and The Economist to cite two ) have become far left publication. Their editorial, as in many subjects they cover, offer a wider and historical perspective to these tragic and disgusting events. It is far too easy to dismiss others' viewpoint as far left, communist or whatever, just because you disagree. Susan's article offers her own perspective and quoting it foster reactions and new ideas. We came on Susan s paper when discussing some pictures published in the latest New Yorker (which is certainly a far left magazine...) but I could give other links to critical articles in the above mentioned magazines (on the role of the US in the development and support of Islamic regimes like the Taliban, on how best to respond to these terrorists, on the geo political consequences of any military actions, etc...). To respect Tony's wishes this is my last post on this thread. Eliot, before making bold public statement on other members (and on myself) of this forum, try to know them better. Your desire to shut off the discussion is excessive: if you care and disagree let us know, if you do not care, do not read it.

-- Angelique (abischop@earthlink.net), September 21, 2001.

For the last ten days we haven´t seen other thing on the news, and this has been for me the most interesting place to talk about it; for this I thank Lutz and Tony again; and I´m with you Angelique. Nice politics talk folks, thank´s.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.