I'm a bit upset, but would like to cry on someone's shoulder! Brought an R4 SL Mot on e-bay for $250.00 It was advertized as "as is: anyway, it will cost me close to 400.00 to get it CLA'd by Kindermann. Should I just assume that an R4 CLA'd is as good as new? Bit surprised at an Elmarit-R 28mm I sent in along with the body. That's going to cost 156.00! Makes you wonder if buying new is the only way to go! I really enjoy reading all the expertize on the Group. Please, I'm not mad at Kindermann, I think they are being very reasonable. Lens will be re collimated, plus lubed and cleaned. Just wondering how far you can stretch a description. Pete Harvey

-- Pete Harvey (nnn0lmt@worldnet.att.net), September 10, 2001

Answers

As a piece of advice I would simply say never buy nothing which is advertised 'as is'. This description is designed deliberately to mislead since if there are faults then they can simply be described - or - if the owner genuinely doesn't know what is wrong find out how long he has owned it. Then ask him why he is describing it with 'as is' and not fully explaining its condition. CAVEAT EMPTOR.

-- Tony Brookes (gdz00@lineone.net), September 10, 2001.

Pete: First off I do not think it advisible to purchase anything unseen, especially a Leica camera or lens. "As is" is very misleading. To purchase the camera for $250.00 then spend another $400.00 to CLA it, you could have paid about the same amount of money and purchased a camera in much better condition! Not only that, but now you have to wait for who knows how long before it comes back from the shop.I learned the hard way a few years ago when I purchased a camera through the mail. It arrived in much worse condition than advertised. CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!

-- John Alfred Tropiano (jat18@psu.edu), September 10, 2001.

Sorry ! I forgot to check my typing:

I meant "never buy anything"

-- Tony Brookes (gdz00@lineone.net), September 10, 2001.

Pete:

I feel your pain! I had to do the same thing with a M3 purchased on EBAY. Leica USA charged $300 for a CLA and shutter curtain repairs. But now the M3 looks and feels as good as my new M6 TTL. The M3 should be good for another 20 years of service before needing a CLA!

Kindermann has a very good reputation, so I assume your R4 SL MOT and 28mm lens will be returned to you in perfect mechanical condition. Servicing Leica equipment is very expensive, but I hope you knew that before taking the plunge!

Anyway, you will enjoy using Leica cameras and lenses. The prints and slides I get with my M and R equipment are stunning!.......................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), September 10, 2001.

Speaking for myself, I'd rather buy a camera cheap, with room in the price for a CLA, after which I'll know for sure that everything is perfect, right from that moment, than buy something more expensive, in apparently better shape, which hasn't been cleaned for 25 years and might break down tomorrow, needing the exact same expensive CLA, costing me even more money in the long run. In fact, I've done both of those things, unintentionally, and the first plan hurt me a lot less, in the long run.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), September 10, 2001.

"As is" on ebay almost always means it IS broken. I often inquire about equipment with thin descriptions, and if I get no answer or "I am not a camera person" I do not bid anymore unless the item is give it away cheap.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 10, 2001.

You didn't say what work was done by Kindermann but when I buy used Leica lenses from ebay I always add on roughly $80 for CLA. Typically any used Leica M lens from the 50's to the 70's would be fogged and the mount will need to be repacked to get it smooth again. I use an independant repairman else it would be twice as costly. Regarding R bodies I have had enough bad experiences to just stick to the R8 and not look back!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), September 10, 2001.

Pete:

I bought an R4 on Ebay and had to have it serviced. It was stated in good condition with all functions working. I wound up with about $500.00 into the body, but it works well now. I have purchased several lenses on Ebay and not been burned. One seller advertised mint condition, and it wasn't. He refunded my money and didn't offer the lens on Ebay again. My best buys from a money and quality standpoint are ones I purchased from individuals in Germany. Even allowing for the money orders, exchange fees and shipping, the quality is better and the sellers appear more honest about their equipment. I would not purchase another body on Ebay. I say cut your losses and learn.

Good luck.

Mark J.

-- Mark A. Johnson (logic@gci.net), September 10, 2001.

Bodies have more moving parts, and more to go wrong. If a lens has clear glass and smooth focus, with clean aperture blades, it's probably ok. So I am much more comfortable buying used lenses than bodies. A very reputable seller will often give a right of return. Someone trying to peddle a dog won't. The look and feel of the add, and the feedback record (which really should be pristine) should give you a sense of whether or not you really want to get involved. I also recommend some correspondence with the seller well before the end of the auction, just to get all your questions answered, and see how responsive the seller is. Ebay is a great marketplace, but caveat emptor remains the rule.

-- Phil Stiles (Stiles@metrocast.net), September 10, 2001.

Wow, 400 bones! I guess I'll let the R4sp go until it absolutely needs it!

-- Dave Doyle (soilsouth@home.com), September 11, 2001.