This forum occasionally deals with the larger things in life than just footy. Forgive me if what I say offends.

I worked with the 'peace-keeping' forces in NI 20 years ago. I tried to see both sides. I saw the suffering of the normal folks who wanted nothing do with the bombings/killings/kneecappings. I spoke to a good many who were involved in atrocities, on both sides.

Here's a group of people who will take any and every opportunity to screw up the peace process. I have heard - and argued probably - every side of every disagreement. I have, in my own very small way, tried to make a difference, though I most likely made matters worse.<

I for one have seen too much. At some point we have to say: enough, we're out of here, sort it out yourselves or keep going until the lot of you are dead or have moved away.

For 20-odd years they had my sympathy, my prayers and the lives of some of my closest friends. No more. Fuck them all and the horses they rode in on.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Answers

Alarmist Perhaps but the way I feel.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Some of the people on holiday where I was staying were from NI and I was shocked to see some of the younger lads (teens) gutted to be missing out on the escalation in hostilities. It made me think that they were nostalgic about the bad old days of a couple of back.

I personally believe that the lack of troubles has created openings for druglords and the like which were previously controlled by the hirarchy of groups under the banners of "political activists". The dwindling authority of these groups has left a lot of idle hands who are battling for their market share. In short they have a vested interest to maintain friction on their doorstep. A difficult one to call but I maintain to persist in the peace process (from my armchair) if Britain pulled out there would be mayhem, it needs time & money and a lot of propaganda.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Time, money and propaganda?

How about 30 years, £18 billion and front pages all over the world?

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

there is something to say about a country where children need to be escorted to school, because of their religion, just because they are going through a certain neighbourhood. I have often said to myself how silly is it to fight over religion, but unfortunately it is the main reason for war around the globe. Although you might expect that in third world countries where ignorance reigns supreme, it is a sad state when a so called modern society can not look beyond such things.

It is utterly amazing to me that people can be so selfish and hateful. I sincerely hope that these people can somehow someway find peace....someday.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Sorry Tony - just read me last posting above and it seemed like I was being a bit short with you. Not intended mate. It's hust that we have poured money and men and effort in to NI for the last generation, with no results.

Perhaps we should pull out completely and let the USA take over the peace keeping. I wonder how long they will keep passing round the hat for the IRA when the body bags start arriving home.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

On a flippant note, I thought most modern wars were fought over regional power bases.

NI is a bizarre place - most people are great and a lot of the countryside is beautiful. However, some areas have a constant tension between localities that is clearly demarkated with flags and painted kerbstones: merely being across the road can define your world view differently to your immediate neighbours. It's going to take an awful long time, maybe 2 generations or more, before anything like normality will start to return to the six counties. Remember, it's a conflict that has been bubbling and occasionally boiling over for 100s of years.

I'm afraid that the Holy Cross school violence is only a small flashpoint, terrible as it is. When people can no longer recall that their uncle, brother, father was in the IRA / UVF etc then maybe we'll see some change.

Can't see the USA getting involved, Dubya is hardly interventionist. In other places like Kosovo the UN would be called in. For Britain to see blue berets on its turf would be an international embarassment. Hence we continue to see this kind of crap.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

I must disagree with Sparxx. The fundamental issues of the ongoing trouble in Ireland are not religious but land based. The English invaded, then pulled out of all but a small section where those loyal to the crown predominate. The religous affililiations of the two sides, republican and loyalist are not the cause of the conflict merely easy categories within which to confine the participants.

I cannot think of any war which was solely caused by religion although religion is often used as a tool by leaders to rally their people to fight their cause.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Know what you mean with Dubya. However, he's just thick enough to bulldoze right through the bullshit without the usual 'we must listen to all sides' bollox and get something achieved. Unfortunately it'll be curtains for the Proddies though....

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Dread : "republican and loyalist are not the cause of the conflict merely easy categories within which to confine the participants"

Sorry, they ARE the cause of the conflict. One side has a singular goal of a united Ireland, the other side is just as adamant that they will remain loyal to the UK. That's why it's insoluble; diametrically opposed objectives.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

DREAD _ AN APOLOGY

Buggar me there I go again - I'm worse than them! Dread, I misread your posting, and of course, you're right, it's nothing to do with religion, it's a turf war

I've been too close too long to this NI situation. I don't think about other people's comments, just rush in bang on about my point.

Spot the irony anyone?

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Dread - the religion bit is quite central to the history of Irish conflict, and a lot of wars but it is about power and land too. I'm sure Soft lad will correct me, and I'm sure you know this, but here goes. The British interest in Ireland during the Reformation was because our island nation was Protestent and surrounded on all sides by 'evil papists' in France, Spain and Ireland. Ireland was a bit mixed in the north and around Dublin because of long standing connections with England mostly stemming from the Norman Plantaganets and Lords. So when it came to choosing sides, there was obvious bother.

The history of Europe shows that religion and nation have often been one and the same thing, which is why Henry VIII's declarations were so devestating, and why Thomas More objected unto his death. The politics, law and country was united under the crown and the indivisible rule of the Church.

The thing about No Surrender and the 'London'derry stuff, King Billy etc was part of the 'Glorious Revolution' - basically, a Protestent coup d'etat inviting a Dutch army to invade. Catholic King James was finally overthrown after the Battle of the Boyne (foolishly not just sailing up the river, but trying to storm the gates...twat).

Religion, land, power and war. All quite nicely tied up into one little package. For modern examples look for East Timor, Kosovo, Rwanda, Chechnya...

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Spotted it nick but had a wry smile about how my original reaction to the pictures from Holycross involved buying a flamethrower and getting the lot of them. Can't imagine throwing stones at children and nor would I subject my kid to a walk to school like that. I am delighted to finally find a bunch of maniacs I cannot identify with or understand on some level. Maybe there is a sort of absolute level after all and an end to the grey areas.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Bobby - historically you're right, it WAS all about religion, but for most of this century the purely religious aspect has been ignored by most involved - the numbers of Catholics in NI attanding Mass is tiny . Most of them wouldn't know the difference between the Roman church's theology and the Protestant's.

Therefore what was historically a great religious battle (look what happened here under both Queen Mary and James II - it's not just an 'Irish' thing)is now nothing to do with that. It's a struggle for independence and a Nation State on one side and a sense of belonging to a community on the other. And no-one dares give up the fight.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Softie - same thought went through my mind once or twice!

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Well, Kosovo has come up a couple of times, and as ever I can't resist the lure... I was in Pristina for ten days in June 1999, just after the bombing ended and the Serbs left, thankfully in the excellent company of 1 Para and 25 Para Field Ambulance. It changed me, and specifically my reactions to these situations. Not long afterwards, I wrote something that included the following extracts.

"I do not have a balanced view of the recent events in Kosovo. Nearly all of the people I met were ethnic Albanians, and almost to a person they wished to talk about their experiences, and those they had witnessed. No doubt there is a Serbian point of view, but the cumulative impact of listening to account after account of killing and ill treatment has left me unable to see it. So many episodes were recounted to me that, despite my best intentions, I have lost track of individual details. Regrettably, all that remain are the grisly lowlights: households of three generations killed, leaving one survivor to spread the word, bereft of parents, spouse and children; men stopped in the street and shot if they could not hand over 20DM (about £7); families forced to race each other to leave their house and valuables, the last one out being shot. I lacked the words to say to those who described such horrors to me. Violence to children was particularly distressing to all who witnessed the results, not least the young girl who had survived (with major gunshot trauma) having witnessed the killing of her parents and siblings; as a result, she remained unable or unwilling to utter a single word to anyone.

"Tucked away in cots in the middle of the obstetric department were nine or ten babies aged between about three months and one year. None showed any sign of physical ill health, although they clearly lacked environmental and human stimulation. They were described as abandoned babies, the result (I surmised) of rapes of Albanian women; however, this was an area where, understandably, people felt much less desire to recount their personal experiences. The babies had been given new, ethnic Serbian names under the previous administration. Their ethnic Albanian attendants clearly had highly ambivalent feelings towards them, and it was depressing to see the obvious temptation to revisit the transgressions of the fathers on the next generation at such a tender age.

"No Kosovar that I spoke to believed that the two peoples could live together again. Examples abounded to underline this view, but one was particularly personal. An ethnic Albanian woman working in the Paediatric Clinic begged me to guarantee the safety of her son. Her husband, now dead, was an ethnic Hungarian from Voivodina, and their son had therefore been called up into the Serbian army. Badly injured and burnt when his tank was hit by a NATO plane, he was about to be discharged from hospital in Belgrade, and had nowhere else to go to recover but to his mother’s home in Pristina. The informal security man beside me, who styled himself KLA, intervened. “God”, he said, pointing skyward, “only God can guarantee his safety if he comes here”. I persuaded him with some difficulty to modify this by adding, “… if he has harmed any Albanians”, but he would relent no further. The mother remained desolate.

...

"The newspapers and bulletins carry less on Kosovo with each passing week. What coverage there is now highlights the revenge attacks on remaining Serbs (the results of which had already started to appear in the mortuary when I was there). I cannot judge the people who do this, although I know that I should condemn such behaviour. The distressing truth is that I do not know that I would not feel as they do, if I had experienced what they have.

When so much clearly remained to be done to restore the hospital to a basic level of safe operation, letting go proved to be remarkably difficult: I was sad to leave, and still find the unfinished business difficult to forget, even though I know that others better qualified have taken it on. Some of the memories have proved remarkably persistent, particularly images of piles of bloodstained, shot and stabbed bodies, in many ways reminiscent of photographs of World War 2 concentration camp victims. Finally, like the Ancient Mariner contrasting his ordeal with the familiarity of the wedding-feast, I am learning to live with two competing versions of reality. In one, life is with few exceptions safe, well ordered and predictable. In the other reality, human beings may be killed for lack of 20DM, children with the wrong name are “legitimate targets”, and unknowing babies can be punished for the sins of their fathers.

He went like one that hath been stunned, /And is of sense forlorn: /A sadder and a wiser man, /He rose the morrow morn"

Actually, you know that Coleridge wrote the last bit. But if I can't bring myself to condemn people driven to commit revenge attacks on Serbians, am I not just as bad as them?

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Bill, we saw the pictures, read and listened to the news, and were horrified at the attrosities in Kosovo. But hearing it from someone that we know ...... who was there and whitnised it with his own eyes, makes it sink in so much more.

Brought a tear to my eye mate.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Dr Bill, you would be as bad as them if you joined in. For me it is the same as understanding why refugees want to come here, but not wanting them to.

Sorry if this in any way triviallises, it is not meant to. Being so far away and not privy to all the facts, I have a somewhat different view of the situation in the Balkans.

The Serbs went way way OTT, no further explanation required on that point. I can understand though as it looks to me as if the Albanians, naturally wanting to have a better life move to another country. They then want to set up their own Government and make their own country. Now this to me is not acceptable. It is what a large amount of trouble all over the world is still trying to be sorted out of. (If that makes sense.)

All countries that were colonised are now going through their own court system to provide reparation to the people that were in possession of the land they took over.

So I can understand the Albanians wanting a better life and the Serbs not wanting to give up their own land. It does not mean that I agree or support what they did. (Either party)

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Bill, it just makes you human. I doubt anybody can have seen the sights you describe can remain unchanged or feel sympathy for the victims of such attrocities. It reads like a Nazi Ghetto clearance in the 1940s. The only thing I can think of is to consider what would improve life for all. Such revenge just adds to misery and rarely solves anything, but that is a view taken from a comfy chair. No answers, Bill. You can only rely on your own judgement on what is the right thing and trust it.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Bill, I know what you mean by there being two worlds out there. Ours, where the biggest disaster is to lose to Sunderland, and theirs, where getting food and staying alive is a great victory. I was in NI when the Paras got blown up then machine gunned at Warrenpoint (1979/80?)- I'm sure they talked about it to you Bill. We flew in, sorted out the living from the dead, and flew the injured to hospital. Now there was a 'two world' siuation - site of a massacre, then 15 mins later back to normal in a nice civvy hospital where all around people were living normally, just like anywhere else in the UK.

But right then, at that moment, I would have gladly put the IRA bastards against a wall and shot them. Not in the head, but through the guts so they suffered for two hours before dying. And laughed while I did it. I'm dreadfully embarrassed admitting that now. Does that make me as bad as them? Perhaps.

Personally, having seen the meekest and honourable of men being pushed beyond their abilities to keep perspective - usually at the murder of a loved one - I think that it is within all of us to carry out revenge attacks. Those of us who have never been put in the position can pontificate on their own possible actions, I cannot say that I would be different. Now that I'm older, maybe I could keep the veneer of respectable society and human dignity, but when I was in my late teens/20's, well that's another story.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Several years, I wrote a paper entitled Ireland -The Thorn on the Crown. It was an attempt to enlighten some of my American friends on the historical background to the problems in Northern Ireland. Obviuosly it would be impossible to condense that paper into a couple of paragraphs. Let me make one point -- about religion. Until the Reformation Engglish and Scottish settlers had always been absorbed by the local population -- not always with the approval of Westminster -- hence the Statutes of Kilkenny. Thereafter, religion became the defining factor. Catholics were encouraged by Rome to rise up against the heretical Elizabeth and began to be regarded as traitors and enemies of England. My considered view is that an English Parliament -- or an American Congress -- cannot find a modus vivendi. The people of Ireland are going to have to do that themselves -- and in so doing they will create unimaginable chaos. There is no other solution. Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Cromwell, Pitt, Gladstone, Asquith, Lloyd George and Major all failed. History does not favor Mr Blair. There is an old Belfast saying -- those who understand the problems of Northern Ireland have been badly misinformed.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

My point about religion is that it is not a people's religious beliefs that cause conflict but rather the way those beliefs are set against others by self-seeking individuals who desire power and land. Catholicism and Protestantism are not diametrically opposed but republicanism and loyalism are.

On the subject of revenge, I feel the same is true. Individuals who witness atrocities will often seek their own individual revenge but it takes a power hungry bastard like Milosevic to make a war out of it.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Nick, you said it. I felt just the same, I feel equally ashamed, but I can't blame it on intemperate youth. I was 50 at the time.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

the real point here to be considered is that throughout the world the majority of peoples seem to struggle with the idea of freedom of self expression and the practice that it leads us to without repercussion. The individual freedoms we enjoy are a gift. The fact that we can co- exist in multi-cultural and ethnic societies (and still have nutters like the KKK, neo-nazis or whoever)is a credit to us all. The fact that the Irish can not co-exist is not a matter of pride, it's prejudice... plain and simple. I wonder what they see when they look in a mirror....

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Dread, you are quite right. What happened in Ireland was that Catholicism came to be synonimous with Nationalism/Republicanism and Protestantism with Loyalism/British. And I believe that the Northern Irish Protestants use both as a cloak for being non-Irish. Having an Anglo-Irish background myself,I believe I am being reasonably objective.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Unfortunately, Sparxx, they see the righteous upholders of a just cause!

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Puts some of my spats with you lot in the shade somewhat! Shouting abuse at 4 year old girls is quite simply the work of a c**t.Misguidance has lead me in the past to 'be on the side' of the unionists.This was not based on anything but ignorance of the true facts.Stupid really as i have always had a soft spot for Rangers(got the shirt when i was 8)but the events of the last week has seen me withdraw my'support' for any of these wankers.These people want to be British.We do not behave like that,we are civilised(even some Newcastle fans!) and this lot can go and piss off.What i have posted here must not be mistaken. The furthest i have gone i my 'support' for the unionists is to prefer Rangers in the Old Firm clashes,nowt more. Let the lot of them rot!

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Having not been 'on-line' so far today, I left this thread until last, expecting to be depressed. This is not in any meant to diminish the quality of the posts: this kind of subject brings out the very best in this wonderful forum, and this thread is certainly no exception - it's just that NI depresses me. Nick's angst, based on bitter personal experience, come across immediately and forcefully, but thoughtfully: Dr Bill's reflections are predictably dramatic and illuminating.

Northern Ireland is simultaneously an anachronism and a lost cause. No external solution can be imposed, and we must come to understand that. The people, all of the people, on both sides of this unfathomable divide, need to want peace - and want it much more intently than they wish to scream outdated bigotry at five-year old children.

I fear it may require much more wanton bloodshed and carnage before they feel the need strongly enough to do something meaningful to achieve a lasting peace, before they can truly see the way forward.

In his book 'The Invention of Peace', Michael Howard says "Throughout history the overwhelming majority of human societies have taken war for granted, and made it the basis for their legal and social structure. Not until the Enlightenment of the 18th century did war come to be regarded as an umitigated evil and one that could be abolished by rational social organisation, and only after the massive slaughter of two world wars did this become the objective of 'civilised' states".

The fundamental point Howard makes in this treatise is that War, not Peace is, or has been, the natural order of things - peacful order needs to be consciously worked towards, it will not just happen in of itself.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

10pm Thursday. I've just re-read this thread, as it was difficult to follow every nuance when trying to work too. I know we never comment on a thread as a whole, a sort of summing-up if you will, but I feel I need to say something.

Well said Clarky for the above. In fact, everyone was on top form today. Dr Bill as eloquent as I've ever read, Floridian, Dread, Gus and Bobby pointing out the historical backdrop to this issue, Softie and others being to the point and perceptive as ever.

You may have guessed when I started this thread that I have been depressed, disillutioned and downright angry about Northern Ireland. Like always, we think we'd bettter not say how we feel in case it offends, but I couldn't bottle it up any longer, so thanks for letting me babble on, and for making me see other sides too. Catharsis was not the reason for posting, but it is the result.

We're Geordies, we don't 'gush' as a rule, quite rightly, but I doubt that I would find a more knowledgeable, intelligent and concerned bunch of individuals anywhere.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2001

Studied in NI for 3 years + just come back from a holiday there. Bobby is quite correct, the countryside is extremely beautiful (espec Co. Antrim) and the locals are very hospitable.

It has never been a 'normal' state, at peace however. The Unionist community have a deep rooted feeling of vulnerability, a siege mentality, thats 300+ years old, ever since their forefathers were invited over to colonise the north by the English from the rebellious native-Irish. To make it worse post-partition in a 'Protestant State for Protestant People' they were lead to believe they were superior to the Catholics.

The anger and resentment felt by the the later has had no difficulty being kept alive particularly after they found themselves on the wrong side of the border.

North Belfast is a veritable patchwork of predominantly Loyalist + Nationalist areas with intense fear + loathing between them. Despite the ceasefire paint-bombs, pipe-bombs, shootings, occur on a daily basis. Loyalists recently planted a huge car bomb in the middle of the Auld Lammas fair in Ballycastle which could have easily lead to Omagh levels of fatalities.

Whilst increasing amounts of Britons share nicks support of withdrawal I'm afraid given the role Britain has played in creating the problem in the first place I can't (Westminster ignored Storment's abuse of power against the nationalists until it was to late). Simple withdrawal (without alternative security forces in place) would lead to a civil war that would rapidly descend into Bosnian levels of barbarity and communal violence. Though the GFA is staggering from crisis to crisis it is the only basis, agreed on by a clear majority north and south, for a peace deal. I still hope it can be made to work.

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

Stevo,

There were 2 bombs in 2 days at Auld Lammas.....

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

Re-reading the thread is a sobering experience, isn't it? So much so that it brings back to me the unerring ability of human beings to find a lighter side in (almost) any situation. Two examples, maybe familiar to those of you with military experience, but they were new to me.

Working one sweltering afternon with a couple of Canuck engineers to repair the diesel generator on a refrigerated container we were using as a temporary mortuary, the system had failed the previous day, and conditions were... unpleasant. I asked them how long they had been away from Canada and their wives. "Long enough to become ambidextrous" they chorused, lugubriously.

The outfit responsible for security of the hospital site was 25 Para Field Ambulance. Its second in command and my main point of contact was a man universally known as "Major Tam" (despite not resembling remotely a Scottish version of David Bowie). He had been in the army since being a young private. One day, a visitor pulled a gun on a hospital worker who he thought was a Serb responsible for the death of his family. The area was crowded, and if weapons had been pointed at the man toting the gun, others could have easily been shot. Major Tam walked straight up to the guy, told him "don't be so f*cking stupid, son," and took the gun from him - just like that. I heard him recount the story afterwards, very straightforwardly and modestly, ending with "aye, that was when I found out that adrenaline was brown..."

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

Cross referencing the thread about the nation with the worst record for atrocities etc. NI is part of the same scenario in which there's a natural tendancy towards disorder. This, as far as I understand it, exists universally - living creatures tend towards the 'disorder' of death, plants similarly. All elements oxidise, vapourise, whatever. And so too with human behaviour. There's an inherant tendancy towards the turmoil that's dogged human developement for the whole of our history.

The point I'm trying to make is that all we're trying to do by means of the trappings of civilisation is to delay the effects of this tendancy, and while the population of the world continues to increase, probably exponentially, it'll be more and more difficult to counter what's really just another law of nature. It seems to me that where ever it's happening in the world, it's all part of the same thing.

Believing that doesn't mean I'm completely fatalistic about why we're here. I wish with all of my being that we'd get it sorted, but I see very little that encourages me to believe that we have the capability.

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

Gav,

the morons responsible could have easily killed dozens from both sides, as I'm told the fair also thousands of protestant visiters. Incredibly callous. Stopped in Ballycastle a few weeks ago. The nearby Causeway Coastline + the Glens have to be amongst the most beautiful parts of Europe.

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

Hmmm, I've always felt, perhaps naively, that most human beings seek to co-exist against all the odds. On travelling to different countries (including NI) I've experienced so much unsolicited goodwill and find that strangers will strive to find similarities rather than differences in order to get on. How many of us have found ourselves deep in conversation about football with a complete stranger even when you don't speak the same language?

Perhaps it's the herd instinct or a throwback to the stone age when communities had to co-exist to survive, I don't know. However I find it hard to accept that warfare is our natural state, quite the opposite. I just don't believe that whole peoples naturally rise up to attack others. It takes a leader ,usually with an entirely different self-seeking agenda, to make war happen.

Outside of the hardline working-class estates in Northern Ireland, people do co-exist. There are mixed schools, there would be many more but for terrorist threats, but every time the terror lets up people start to mix again, work together, go out together because that is what most of them want.

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001

16 years ago today I got married in Belfast, and it pissed it down ! Our wedding photos which were supposed to have Stormont grandly in the background ended up being taken inside the Stormony hotel. Lots of great memories of a great wedding day, the celebrations generally being agreed by all my friends as being the best at any of our weddings.

Another event from that day still sticks with me, and worries me.

The night before I had to be farmed out to a frind of my wife's family, a former neighbour, schoolteacher and her husband. A lovely warm couple.

I was given lunch and sat with the husband, a great guy in his late 50s I'd guess. We chatted about football, Tommy Cassidy, Jackie Milburn, David McCreery etc. I then asked him about what his job had been. He told me then said he had also been in the police reserve, which wasn't really a reserve through the 70s-80s.

He told tale of how he came to leave it. He realised one night that he'd pulled his gun and pushed it close up to a catholic kid who had been winding him up. He still seemed shocked at himself doing it even though it was few years earlier.

I really felt for him, clearly he was just you or me but put into that stress situation he had been dragged across the the dark side and only just pulled back.

We chatted on. I had only been to Belfast a few times, to arrange the wedding and things, so he was more than happy to tell me more. He expalined that everything was okay as far as troubles went in the area we were in. This was because it was 99+% Protestant, and any area whether Protestant or Catholic that had that high a proportion was fairly free from conflict. It was only the interface points that had problems. I asked if there were any Catholics around where we were, and did he know how they felt about being so out numbered. He then explained that everybody knew who they were, and nobody ever talked to them because realy you just can't trust catholics at all.

I was stunned. Suddenly this Mr Average guy, and he was, was telling of catholics being untrustworthy. Is that what even the normal people think ?

I have never raised the issue of the troubles when I've been with my in-laws as I was never realy sure how strong their feelings were, although they seemed very unaffected. About 5 years after getting married (so 1990-ish)it was raised in conversation for the first time. I didn't really try to offer too much as I was an outsider and felt wahtever I said would be dismissed as an outsiders view. My wife and her two brothers (all born in the 60s) were unbelievably (to me) vehement in their hatred of the violence, of the politicians who kept propogating it, and of their desire for the poltical/community leaders to just sit down and talk. This had my ma-in-law in tears as her instinct was that I mentioned earlier that catholics couldn't be trusted and were to blame for it all.

The difference between the older generation who didn't trust and the next generation who wanted it to end, was marked. The progression to the next generation must be as big.

Now this family is a well-off Protestant group on the edge of East Belfast. Maybe it's that their economic well-being softens their fears, maybe it's just that the younger generation is seeing that conflict doesn't work. Dunno.

I feel the Holy Cross thing is just like the tail on the Foot and Mouth epidemic. There is no way that the thing will die out overnight the problem has been too big for too long. There will always be a flare up every once in a while but what the politicians have to do is work at it, and stay with it, and stamp out the disease at it's roots. It will take a while.

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2001