I saw an ad for an EOS 3000, but searching through Canon.com showed nothing about it? Is this another internationalized version of a camera?

Also, I've discovered that my son (13) has composed some phenomenal shots using a decent APS point-and-shoot, and I want to bring him into more advanced work, where he can learn some manual photography, but also switch over to auto for simpler stuff.

I've been hearing good things about the Rebel 2000/EOS300, but is this a good place to start? I want to be able to leverage the large number of EF lenses that I already have for my Elan IIe...

Thanks for the help.

-- doug (dsc@iscweb.com), September 05, 2001

Answers

Yes the EOS 3000 is a European Canon model. And yes the Rebel 2000 is an excellent place to start. It's small, light, well-featured, and he can use all the EF lenses that you have. I have a Rebel X that I started with years ago, and it still works like a champ. I sometimes still stick this $150 body on my $1600 100-400L IS and if you only looked at the photos you would never know.

-- Peter Phan (PPHAN01@YAHOO.COM), September 05, 2001.

The Rebel 2000 lacks durability, speed, and pro features, but Peter is right - it is an excellent place to start. The trick will be getting your son to use it as a manual camera - the R2K takes fine photographs in auto modes. And as you may already know, don't buy the kit lens. Loan him yours, or buy him a 50mm - the best lens, IMO, to start with.

Derrick

-- Derrick Morin (dmorin@oasisol.com), September 05, 2001.

The EOS 3000, just replaced with the EOS 3000N, is the model down from the EOS 300/Rebel 2000. Basically the EOS 3000 was the EOS 500 by another name. The newer camera is a little more capable. The EOS 300 is a great place to start. I started when I was 10 with a Canon EOS 1000FN (Rebel IIS), and now own an EOS 5 with L series lenses. The EOS 300 will indeed act as you want for him. Go for it.

-- Isaac Sibson (isibson@hotmail.com), September 05, 2001.

Doug,

You can find information on the EOS 300, 3000 & 3000N at the Canon Australia website.

From my reading, it seems that the 3000N is actually a step backward from the 3000 in some ways. I don't know how much money you save with the 3000/3000N over the 300 (Rebel 2000 here in the US) which is available from places such as B&H Photo-Video for about $250 US body only. The 300 is a fine entry level camera.

I'm not sure you can find many used EOS bodies in good enough shape to be an alternative -- but you might check that avenue. My concern with such old bodies is repairs (at least with a new camera you have a warranty).

Good for you for encouraging your son!

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 05, 2001.

I also agree that a 50mm f/1.8 for $80 new is a far better option than going with a kit zoom lens.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 05, 2001.

I'm hearing that the f1.8/50mm is a better choice. Is this because of the exposure lattitude given by a faster lens? I can see not giving my son a lot to think about regarding zoom and all, but I was curious about the 50mm.

I happened to have learned on a Canon FTB with a 50mm and still have many of the (incredible) photographs that I took with it. I think I eventually picked up a 2x macro converter, and that thing lasted me forever.

-- doug (dsc@iscweb.com), September 05, 2001.

Doug,

There are many arguments for the 50mm f/1.8 as a first lens:

1. It is one of the sharpest non-L lenses around. Nothing beats it by price point. It is far sharper than most (if not all) your affordable zooms.

2. A lot of people believe it is better to learn photographic discipline by being forced to move yourself in order to compose an image, rather than relying on a zoom to do the cropping for you.

3. None of the zooms will be as good or as fast in low light applications. It will auto-focus faster, and in dimmer light. It will be easier to manual focus, when the lighting does not permit AF. Many photographers have an f/1.8 in their arsenal for this reason alone.

4. The cost of a new EF 50mm f/1.8 mk II lens is $80 US -- pretty darn expensive. Used mk I's in good condition would cost about the same & are slightly better build quality (although about the same optical quality. The 50mm f/1.4 USM is a much better lens, build & ergonomically speaking, but 4 times more expensive -- with concerns of theft, loss or damage...it may not be the best choice for your son.

Besides...you state that you already have a large arsenal of EF lenses that your son could draw from! :-)

I wish my dad had been an avid photographer! Your son is very fortunate, if his interests parallel yours

A note about the EOS 300/Rebel 2000, tying in to the low photography point brought out above -- it has a mirror box "prism" design rather than a true pentaprism, and so the viewfinder is not as bright as you will find in more expensive models. But what did you expect in an entry level camera? You can't have everything!

I would also recommend you encourage your son to explore the manual capabilities of the camera, so that he can better understand the effect of shutter speed and apertures.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

To add even more benefits to the EOS 300/50mm f/1.8 combination -- it makes for a very compact & therefore portable package. Your son may be more likely to cary it everywhere he goes. Of course, a point & shoot would be even more compact, but wouldn't give him the quality of pictures or the breadth of control an EOS SLR would.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

I am so glad I came here to ask the questions. It seems that the eos 300 with a 50mm 1.8 is the way to go. What are the trade-offs between MkI and MkII lenses?

As for getting him to shoot in manual and priority modes, before I had said anything to him, he had pointed out some DoF differences in the Masters of Photography website. He asked how you can "make part of the picture blurry, and the rest in focus?". HE even started pointing out lines of convergence, and how some pictures "divide the photograph in thirds".. It's around that time that I decided that he needed more than his APS point-and-shoot. I'm anxious for him to have a real tool in his hands, and I can't wait to begin to see the world through his eyes!

Thanks to everyone for all of the advice.

-- doug (dsc@iscweb.com), September 06, 2001.

Another point of clarification: The 300 is a more advanced platform than the 3000, is that correct? I thought that someone said the rebel 2000 is the same as the eos 3000, but that the eos 300 is a better camera? COuld someone clarify? I'm willing to spend a littel more to get my son a good body, and I want him to feel the difference.

thanks again guys.

-- doug (dsc@iscweb.com), September 06, 2001.

Doug,

All of these 30/33/300/3000/3000N EOS's can get quite confusing! In some ways, I prefer the American "Rebel's," & "Elan's," though the semi-consistent numbering system is more eloquent.

Back to your point! The EOS 300 is the Rebel 2000 -- the more sophisticated entry level, up from the EOS 3000 or EOS 3000N. I've not checked pricing on the two lower end models, but unless they are drastically less expensive than the EOS 300, I'd recommend going with that for your son.

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

Just a quick thought on the bargain/used issue: Given the cost of a new Rebel 2000 (about $250), I would not even look for a used, older model. $250 is an excellent price for the features/capability - warranty - you get in the Rebel. From one father to another, this is more than just a thing you buy for your kid - he could enjoy this hobby for a long time. Just my opinion - buy new!

-- Derrick Morin (dmorin@oasisol.com), September 06, 2001.

In the european/japanese/rest of world apart from US EOS numbering system, the lower the number on a body, the better it is, with the EOS 1V and EOS 3 being top of the pile, EOS 3000N at the bottom. This doesn't really work outside of like numbered ranges though (eg EOS 30 (Elan 7) is better than the EOS 5 (In my opinion), EOS 30 is definately better than the EOS 10)). Basically you can see the system as being 5 tiers. EOS 1/1N/1V at the top, then the EOS 3/5, then the EOS 30/50, then EOS 300/500N/500 then EOS 3000/3000N/5000 at the bottom. Models get replaced from time to time, and it's usually clear where they stand. The EOS 3000 was the same as the EOS 500, as this was a cheap way to upgrade the 5000 without designing a new camera.

As for 50mm F1.8s, the Mk I was made from metal, and the mk II from plastic. They are both very light, although obviously the mk II is lighter. I don't think the plastic construction would prove a problem on this light a lens anyway. Are zooms such a bad place to start though? I started on an EOS 1000FN with a 35-80 USM (yes, the horrible kit lens), and progressed on from there. It would give him more flexibility and creative freedom, and I think if he starts to see the optical defects of such a lens, then you can place the upgrade in his hands, and possibly lend a few of your primes. :-). I used to borrow my parent's lenses (have a full complement of my own now), so you are wise to look at maintaining compatibility.

-- Isaac Sibson (isibson@hotmail.com), September 07, 2001.

Isaac - You may have lit the fuse on another debate:

"Are zooms such a bad place to start though...It would give him more flexibility and creative freedom."

Photography is a personal thing - each to his own. But I disagree with part of this statement. I think although the zoom will offer greater flexibility and freedom, a prime lens will better encourage photographic creativity. The photographer is forced to put more thought into the composition of the photo. I'll leave it at that. I started with zooms and have switched to primes. I think my technique would have improved more quickly had I started with a 50.

Doug - Did you get more than you bargained for with your question? While the zoom would better suit someone who wanted flexibility and freedom, I get the impression that you are more interested in developing your son's skills as a photographer. My opinion is go with the prime.

-- Derrick Morin (dmorin@oasisol.com), September 07, 2001.

Doug stated in his original post that he had a large number of EF lenses already -- I assumed that that included zoom lenses. That reflects more on me than on him, doesn't it? :-)

In any case, the decision on zooms for himself or his son is entirely up to him, and we've all given Doug our excellent (IMHO) advice! ;-)

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

While I didn't mean to spark a controversy, I agree with the opinion that someone had about my son learning to move himself, rather than rely on zoom to compose and frame a shot. After all, in my experience, the 'where' is as (or more) important than the what at his level.

I do have some good alternate EF lenses for him to work with occasionally, some zoom, some wide angle, and even a tilt/swing for down the road. But as someone suggestted, I'd like him to focus on exposure, compsition, and relating to the subject. I imagine he'll sneak out and shoot some 'unauthorized' stuff, which I would secretly encourage...

You guys have been tremendously helpful. Another hing that I'll be introducint him to is this message board. You guys are a phenomenal resource.

Thanks again. Doug

-- doug (dsc@iscweb.com), September 07, 2001.

Fair enough....my point was just that zooms aren't the devil's work that some would portray them as. There are of course good zooms, and bad zooms. There are people who are good at using them, and those who are not. It purely depends on the person and lens in question.

I have always had zooms, and so I think that I know how to handle them to a good effect (I won't say best, because there's always room for improvement), but I do have a prime (with teleconverter, so two primes, in a way), and I am learning all the time how to handle that to good effect also.

-- Isaac Sibson (Isibson@hotmail.com), September 07, 2001.

I love zooms! A wonderfully handy invention! (I wonder who invented it, and if they ever saw any money out of it) A marvel of modern engineering, design & manufacturing -- especially those oh, so lovely L series big heavy white thingies ()! ;-)

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 08, 2001.

All with a light heart and in good fun! :-)

-- Hung James Wasson (HJWasson@aol.com), September 12, 2001.