Hi, I'm intending to get an L39 body (most probably a IIIc or IIIf) and a collapsible Elmar, and would appreciate any advice for the first-time buyer. I've looked at cameraquest.com, so I already know to look out for damaged shutter curtains, sticky slow speeds, a dim RF image, and cloudy lens elements. Is there anything else I should specifically check for? In particular, are fakes (excepting outrageous gold & lizardskin bodies, or 'genuine Luftwaffe' markings!) much of a problem? To the untrained eye, things like this:

http://www.russiansouvenirs.com/web/camera/ccl120.htm

look quite convincing. Any tips for spotting them?

-- Richard Williams (richardw@icr.ac.uk), September 03, 2001

Answers

All of the fakes are based on the same basic model, with no slow speeds. I also believe none of them have a moving roller to link the RF to the back of the lens--a metal triangle that can be rotated for adjustment is common.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

I have owned a few different types of Soviet cameras and lenses. Even though the stuff is inexpensive, its still not that great of a deal. The lenses are more useable than the bodies, but the fit can be poor to where they won't mount on the camera without something grinding, and often the focus/aperture controlls are really rough. Their camera bodies in general are poorly machined, so there are problems with frame overlap, shutter curtains that bounce, light leaks (very very common on many Soviet camera), sticky feeling release buttons, etc. The internet has been a boom to the sale of this stuff. Sight unseen except for a photo, they look really nice. At the camera shows I used to attend, the Russian equipment folks always had very little action at their tables. In person and in your hands, the stuff is much less impressive.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 03, 2001.

My advice would be to go to a reputable shop that deals in Leica and handle some of the screw-mount bodies. Once you've done this it will be impossible not to tell a Russian fake straight away. In any case I would strongly suggest to anyone to look at the feedback profile of any e-Bay seller on whose merchandise you are tempted to bid. However one must remember that screw-mount Leicas (and many M's as well) are many decades old and the most honest and knowledgeable seller can't be expected to know how many more shots a camera "has left in it" before something breaks that requires service.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), September 03, 2001.

I realized I mis-understood your question (I think). You are trying to make sure you DON'T end up with a fake at the price of the real thing, correct? Sorry I thought you were interrested in buying a copy like the link you had in your question. (it does look pretty good in the photo, doesn't it?) Buy one from one of the half dozen reputable sellers in Shutterbug--they wouldn't ever try to pawn off a fake as the real thing. Now some e-bay sellers...

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), September 03, 2001.

Thanks for the replies, & sorry if I wasn't clear about the Russian fakes. Yes, I am looking for a genuine Leica rather than a fake, though I agree the one I linked to looks pretty good! But information about the general quality of the Soviet equipment is still welcome - I was wondering if getting hold of a Russina lens or two at some stage would be a good idea, but I don't like the sound of 'something grinding'...

Handling the genuine article at a reputable specialist dealer sounds like a good idea (& is something I've done briefly). In fact, I may end up buying one from this sort of place - paying a bit more may well be worth it for better advice & service in the long run. However, being able to spot a fake will be useful if I come across a 'bargain' being sold by a non-specialist.

Thanks for the tip about the RF roller - I'll hopefully be able to spot that. Looking at images of all the fakes I can find with Google confirms that they lack slow speeds, and have non-adjacent RF and viewfinder windows like the earlier Leicas. The accessory shoe on the model I linked to looks suspicious, though! The Cameraquest site does mention a fake 'Black Leica IIIf Swedish, complete with Swedish crowns' (no image). Were there any later Soviet RFs that could have been modified to look like a IIIf, or was this more likely to be just superficial decoration of the same base model, still lacking the slow speed dial and the adjacent finders?

-- Richard Williams (richardw@icr.ac.uk), September 03, 2001.

The other common thing the Russians missed, I just remembered, is that Leica shutter releases don't have modern cable release holes in them--when they do the fakes they leave the original Russian knurled- top release with the release socket in it. You can see it in the one in the link you posted.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

Richard:

I am a veteran/victim of more than a few Russian and E German cameras. Generally, the lenses are great. The sharpest lens I have is a crappy looking oxidised aluminum Industar 50mm/3.5. which I got with a Zorki body for 25 Pounds Sterling in England.

All teh problem mentioned above ARE REAL. I now have a pentacon 6x6 with amazing E German Zeiss Jena lenses, but teh mirror shake and winding problems make the setup almost unusable. IOf I could find adapters to use teh lenses on other 6x6 or 35mm cameras I would be very happy. If you want to play around with them and learn a bit about camera manufacture, and to compare dray horses to thorobreds, get a Russian or Ukranian(Kiev) camera and you may stike it lucky.

Dosve Dyenye

-- RICHARD ILOMAKI (richardjx@hotmail.com), September 03, 2001.

Once you know what to look for, detecting the vast majority of Feds and Zorkis in Leica clothing isn't hard. The Zorkis have a black band around the top and bottom of the vulcanite that is an immediate tip off. Also the rangfinder/viewfinder windows in the front are also different for Feds and Zorkis from Leicas. The shutter release is also usually different.

I got mine with a bad film transport gear and no clearance between the body and the internal works. You couldn't even fit film in that space to load it! After some tech support it did work well and the lens is suprisingly good.

IIIf black dials and IIIc's are pretty well priced, and so are Canon 7's (great screwmount bodies by the way). Don't overlook the M2 or M3 as screwmount bodies either (with adapters).

-- David W. Griffin (carbon_dragon@yahoo.com), September 12, 2001.