THIS THREAD IS CLOSED. NO MORE POSTINGS, PLEASE!

I am asserting my moderator authority here. Starting NOW, I am asking you all to NOT post ANYTHING to any of these threads:

Why chose second-class citizenship?
Spiritual Submission (2nd class citizenship??)
The Double-Edged Sword and Biological Hierarchy

I am also asking for restrictions on the "Paganism" thread, although I will allow it to continue if the restrictions are observed. I'll be posting the requests on each thread.

This is only a request at this point. However, if anyone ignores the request, I remind you that I can delete the thread. Call me draconian, or anything you want, I don't care. Besides, the thread will only be deleted here -- I will copy any deletions to another location where it can still be accessed by administrators or moderators, and could be restored here in the future.

I am, in effect, asking us all to take a time out. At this time, the double-edged sword thread seems to be going along alright, but since I have been proven wrong when I thought that about the other threads, I'm not taking the chance again.

I am the only moderator you have at the current time. Jim is unable to participate except occasionally, and Cindy says she is bowing out. Perhaps we/I should have done this earlier. Well, we/I didn't, so all I can deal with is NOW.

I will attempt to consult with Jim and Cindy on what I've done here.

In the meantime, I am cautiously offering this thread for you all to express your opinions on what we should do to resolve this conflict we've fallen into. You can also express your feelings on what I've done here. Please leave any mention of any religion (by name) out of it!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Answers

Thank you, Joy, I believe you have done the right thing as moderator of this board. Argument that is not productive and positive is not needed here, we get enough of that in real life! :-)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I am floored. I completely respect Joy's request to refrain from posting on those other threads and will do so. However, AM I MISSING SOMETHING? Are we ARGUING???? Is there a fight going on? Are you guys having conversations via email or something that aren't getting posted here????? I don't get it. I really, really, really don't see that we are doing anything "wrong" except maybe beating this subject to death. Is that what's happening? Please, in good faith, I'm asking someone to explain what is happening here...thank you.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

OK by me Joy.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Aye aye, Cap'n!! (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Ok, I'm feeling about as dense as a cement block right now. I just read through the Paganism thread and I can't see where anyone was poking fun at Christians. Can someone please point out the offending passages (you can do it by private email if you wish) It appears that I need to recalibrate my sensitivity meter. My statement that most of the Pagans that I knew came from two particular denominations of Christianity was meant simply as an observation, I was in no way trying to imply any sort of judgement regarding those denominations.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Anyone can email me privately if they would prefer, too. :-)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Well Sherri, I'm living in guilt here, that perhaps it was me, on the pagenism thread relating my past experiances . I want to say again that I am very sorry if I said any thing that sounded like I was putting Christians down. Sheepish talked earlier on Annie Millers thread about the Christian religion being just as sacred as any of them. And altho I am not Christian I would like to say Amen to that.I sure will be more careful in the future.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I think I am probably not a good choice for a moderator (and I am NOT trolling for you all to clamor that I AM -- I'd disagree with you anyway!). I just don't seem suited to it, and I have no practice, since I am not even a parent [very tiny joke].

Sheepish, some members of this forum feel that their beliefs have been criticized and made fun of -- this has been conveyed partially in emails, but also posts on some of the offending threads. It's also felt that their protests aren't being comprehended by most of folks reading them.

To all of us, whether or not we all agree that these things have occurred, it remains a fact that some feel that way. I am hoping this thread will generate some suggestions on how to deal with conflict, on how we can resolve our differences, and whether or not we should make some topics off-limits. Sheepish, if you want to copy some of your comments about dealing with conflict here, that's fine, might be helpful. Please just leave any religious reference out of it.

I don't have the answers. I think I've been perceived as part of the problem, so I don't know what to say. I'm hoping some who have felt discomfort (or worse) will have some suggestions. To them, I say, help us, please. We failed to 'get it', so obviously we need help. I don't know how else to deal with this. We are in danger of losing members. I am feeling very badly that Jim will have to see this mess and that I didn't do a better job for him in his absence. I'm sorry Jim!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Poor Joy! She has to try to keep us goofballs in line all by herself!

Should I FedEx a gallon of my stress-relief tincture up to Wisconsin? :)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

What is it, White Lightning? [she said suspiciously] Thanks for the suggestion, I'll go take some of my homeopathic stress rememdies.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Me too! Oh wait, is gin and lemonade considered homeopathic? (giggles and grins!)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I posted on the pagan thread that I enjoyed the thread. I feel most likely I have been part of the problem rather than part of the solution here. Sorry for that. Way too much empathy for Cindy I guess. Sheepish made some really good points and I have been taking them under consideration myself.Joy, I sure have never considered you part of the problem. Tough deal when people really start hurting, makes it so hard to sort things out. When a limb is wounded you often put it in a sling. Maybe a timeout is the best we can do at this particular time. hugs to all

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Thank you for your reply. I will not make references to my religious beliefs! Whew. That's actually easy!

Even though I try to be respectful of others' viewpoints, I know that I have a lot of work to do...especially when it is apparent to me now that I haven't been particularly sensitive to these other folks' pleas. I haven't really even sensed them that much...sheesh....I'm sorry.

I do know that there are as many ways of communicating as there are people. I know that now. And I want to say something that I hope will not be seen as being anything other than *different*. It's not intended to sound like I'm thinking I'm superior or that I'm judging others, okay? It's just that after umpteen years of college, where these kinds of "conflicting" conversations are encouraged, to almost as many years in a corporate environment, (where while one is expected to tow the corporate line, at least one gets to voice a sort- of strong stance... and has to learn to keep face as the vice president hands you back your head in front of a bunch of colleagues) spirited discussion has been something that I have learned to live with. I even have friends that are attorneys. (I know...) I like conversation from different perspectives. I forget that others don't.

I mentioned on another thread that I grew up with conflict. To this day, my brother would rather "go to his room" and do anything else than get into a disagreement/conflict (whatever you want to call it) with me (or anyone.) In our household, when my dad and I would argue passionately, my mother would first try to get us to stop, and then when she couldn't, she'd just give up. My little brother was very affected by what he saw, and he would just withdraw. I have to remember that other people don't react in the world the same way that I do...that it is incredibly discomforting to them to be around people who argue. Maybe if I can somehow understand that what I see as spirited discussion and sharing of ideas is rather perceived by others as arguing or sparring, then just maybe I can learn a more effective way of communicating.

Maybe I should just try to think of folks on here as my brother, and maybe I can learn a more effective way of "talking."

To the extent that I am liable for the discomfort on here, I humbly offer my apology. I still believe that which I have written, but I wish I had either not said it at all, or that I had said it much more comfortably for others.

Love,

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Anybody care to clue me in on what's going on? Looks like the revolution has begun and I didn't even get a memo...

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

In the complex tapestry of communication that we have woven here, we have some edges that are starting to unravel...

If you read the threads that Joy alluded to, you will get the history. I'm sure Joy can fill you in on her perspective.

I started a thread in response to feelings that I had regarding a post on CS about a woman wanting to join the Amish. It hit some responsive chords, both positive and negative. People responded to either/or the political component of the second-class citizenship perspective or to the personal component. I think feelings about what it means to be a woman, what it means to be in a submitted relationship, and what it means to be of a certain religious faith were discussed. Emotions were pulled along various lines. People, mostly women, responded and some perceived their posts to be taken less than seriously. People's feelings were hurt and Joy has requested us to take a time-out. But that's my take. I have proven myself to be rather unaware. I'm just answering b/c I feel somewhat responsible for creating the problem.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Thanks sheepish,

I'll try to read them this weekend if I have time. I really hope we can get things worked out. I'd hate to see anyone leave the forum over this.

BTW, I hope you had a good time on your vacation.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I guess I understand why you made the decision Joy and I'll cooperate, however I personally would regret seeing the religious/spiritual discussions being banned. And FWIW, I don't recall seeing anything, from anyone, that I'd consider prostheltysing.

I suspect nearly ALL of us here were raised in a Christian home yet nearly all of us here have adopted a different path from mainstream Christianity. It truly makes me wonder why and the discussions here have been instructive in answering that question.

Part of the problem, I think, is the tendency to first generalize, then stereotype, as I suggested in one of the offending threads. When one of us refers to Christianity and Christians it would probably be more appropriate to specify what particular "type" or "version" of Christianity so its not an all-inclusive statement. I think it was Sheepish who commented about the high profile "Christian" leaders painting a false perception of Christianity in general in the publics mind and what we seem to be wittnessing here is "backlash".

Legitimate disagreement can be a good thing as long as we play nice and at least respect anothers right to make their own decisions even tho we may not agree with the decision itself. Worse case scenario is we don't and the offended should be able to get over it just as the "offender" shoul maybe try a little harder to be sensitive to anothers POV. It seemed to me any way that for the most part that respect was shown.

I do hope that things will return to amiable-normal and that Cindy will not stay away long. (You listening Cindy?)

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

well spoken john, IMHO it is the sterotyping and generalizations that are the greatest difficulty. On the pagan thread it was mentioned that 20 pagans could get together and represent 24 pagan beliefs. I propose that NO ONE PERSON can grasp the diversity of any particular people group or religion. I really regret that I was reacting so to some of what was said, and do not like the idea that people think that they have to walk on egg shells. I also found it informative to see why various people chose to leave their Christian roots and was not offended by it at all. What offends me and probably always will are the broad generalizations and stereotyping that occurs when anyone THINKS that they have the answers. There is a very big difference, IMO, between stating your own opinion and stating something as fact that you really don't know. No one can really get into someone else's mind, at least the last I knew, and know what that person's collective experience is and how they perceive reality.

I personally would hate to see religious discussions ended here as IMO it was one of the things we had hoped to be able to do without ANYONE being persecuted for their beliefs.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

geesh john, we both just broke what joy requested and mentioned a specific religion!!! Sorry joy, you can put little xxxxxx's where I mentioned specifics. Did it without even thinking.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

another little two cents worth from me. While I was out in the garden picking I was still thinking about this and what IMO was going on. Of course since i am only in MY head it can get pretty wierd. Then when I got back into the house and checked e-mail I got further conformation of my thoughts so here it goes. Denise said on one of the threads this was just a "forum". For me it has been a life line through a very bad time in my life and I ASSUMED that people knew me and that I knew them. This was a SAFE place that I could be me.

After all has been said and done, I can only speak for myself here. This is not a slam against anyone please, but..........we really don't know each other as well as we think we do. Letting people into your being tends to give them power to nurture or hurt you. Why would the same thing said over on CS not touch me but here it would hurt??? Assumption of knowledge would........that you would know that saying something like that would hurt intensifies the hurt. I assumed that because I had shared about the Amish that people would know that they were particularly dear to my heart. When someone said oh please.........go ask Little Bit and get the answers there, it really intensifed for me and things just disintegrated from there.

In the future I plan to ask myself a lot of questions before I respond to something that triggers emotion. Do I really know that person or do I just think I do??? Could they just be having a bad day and therefore being insensitive at this moment or do they routinely stomp all over those who don't believe as they do?? Am I offering something helpful or am I just lashing out?? as usual, I have lots more questions than answers.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Legitimate disagreement can be a good thing as long as we play nice and at least respect anothers right to make their own decisions even tho we may not agree with the decision itself. Worse case scenario is we don't and the offended should be able to get over it just as the "offender" shoul maybe try a little harder to be sensitive to anothers POV. It seemed to me any way that for the most part that respect was shown.

I would agree with the above but with the following qualifier. I think that we need to keep an eye out be be sure that one person/viewpoint/belief system/etc. isn't consistently told to "get over it" more than the rest. Even if it's done with gentleness and love it could start to wear down on a person after a while.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Oops, I tried to do something fancy and I screwed up the code. Help!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Diane is absolutley right, we far to often just blurt out what immediately comes to mind with no thoughts at how other folks are going to take it, or the effects it could have on a person having serious emotionally or personal problems at the time, or jus the effect it might have on a sensitive person.

We don't need to "walk on eggshells", but please have enough resposibility to guage the effect your words will have on us ALL.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Wow, very neat Sherri!!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I am living proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Warning: Salty language, sarcasm and bitching.

Well, ditto on the safe place where I could be me thing. Sarcasm intended. My e-mail confirms that others on this board are afraid to post what they feel, for fear of upsetting certain others. I didn't particularly like being dumped on for what I said about PK and support groups - note I said "didn't like" not "got my feelings hurt" - but I didn't go cry in my saurkraut and try to make others feel guilty about it either, I just shrugged my shoulders and got over it; and without anybody telling me I needed to, then went and posted a perky little story somewhre else. Yup, more sarcasm. And no, I'm not having a bad day, or PMSing, or feeling emotionally fragile - I'm just fed up to the gills with the whining. Whining - my opinion and my opinion only; feel free to bash away - I'm a big girl, I can take it - without a support group.

Diane, why on earth did it hurt your feelings for me to say Go ask Little Bit? That woman was the main reasons I left Countryside. Anyone who's read her stuff knows what her opinion would be on the subject. No, Diane - I obviously DON'T know you if that hurt your feelings. And you sure as heck don't know me if you didn't recognize that statement for the sarcasm that it was.

Y'all want to read back through my posts, I think you'll find that 98% of them have been sweetness and light. I think that's a pretty good record. For now, I'll state flat out and for the record that I plan to post what I think and feel as I have in the past; y'all want me to go do it elsewhere, I reckon I'll be happy to oblige. Doesn't mean I plan to be flat out obnoxious like I am in this post, or trample the tender hearted under hobnail boots - just means I'll stay the hell off threads that I know are going to piss me off. Suggest the rest of you do the same.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Party pooper that I am, I fixed your post, Sherri! ;-) You just left out the / when you were trying to turn off the italics.

I'm not going to XXXXX out the references above, as Diane suggested. So far, I don't see that they are offensive. If someone finds them to be offensive, please email me, so that I can change it. If you do, explain please why they ARE offensive -- I can't learn to change my sensitivity meter if I don't understand.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I knew what I did as soon as I saw the post, but I didn't know how to get back into the post so I could fix it. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Diane, I didn't realize that the forum had been a lifeline to you. I'm sorry if I sounded insensitive. Truly. It's another example of difference in perception. I enjoy the forum, it's my favorite forum, and as far as forums go I believe we're a family. But it's not the same as my immediate family that I live with and really know. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know all of you well enough to always respond with exactly what I'm thinking. That's why I don't always respond to some threads because I know that what I think will definitely rub someone the wrong way. Or I sit here scripting what I say trying to make my content as palatable as possible. I don't mean to make it sound like drudgery but I do mean I do it out of respect because I don't know you all intimately. If there was a ever a group I could be one on one with it would be this group of people. I try to base my responses on how I would word things if I had to say it to you face to face. I think it's easier to sort of spout off if you don't have to see the reaction first hand. I think we can all say what we want to if we just really think about it before we hit that submit button. As a matter of fact I just read this to my daughter to see if she thought it sounded OK. It's not because I am trying to avoid conflict or be a perfectionist, it's because I really care.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Denise, obviously I didn't communicate what I intended. I was just quoting you as an example of the differences between how we viewed things. It certainly was not intended to point out to you any insensitivity on your part. I have always appreciated your posts and found them to be very thoughtful and sensitive.

Polly, whining??? Trying to make people feel guilty??? Last time I looked you hadn't left CS...........my granny always said "If the shoe fits, wear it" I am not going to wear that shoe today. If you can not see how that statement re. little bit might be demeaning, than I am sure not going to try and show you.

MY reference to e-mail was in regards to someone sharing how "I" had hurt them by what "I" said here. My perception of them and what would hurt them was wrong. This just keeps getting worse all the time and I am just not going to respond anymore. I may have been sarcastic and bitchy in the past, but not deliberately and not deliberately to hurt.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Diane, I just want you to know how highly I regard you. I didn't feel you were pointing me out. I just like you alot and want you to know that!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

All of the e-mails I have gotten so far regarding this latest teapot tempest have been positive and supportive. Doesn't make me feel vindicated. Doesn't make me feel that I am wrong in this latest thread either though. I don't like it that I hurt Cindy; but the apology I need to say to her will go to her in a private e-mail.

I stick by my whining and trying to make people feel guilty statements, I work around that crap every day and can spot manipulative behavior a mile away.

Diane, I said little bit was the main reason I left Countryside; which I did, for a good long while. Nope, still don't see why the statement about little bit was demeaning to YOU; her, yes - you, no. Doubt very much that you could explain it to the point I could understand it, because you and I don't speak the same spiritual language.

You said: "I may have been sarcastic and bitchy in the past, but not deliberately and not deliberately to hurt." I, personally, can tell before I hit the submit key when I am being sarcastic and bitchy. Did I aim to hurt anyone with my references in the previous threads? No more than you did. There are a lot of times that I sit here at the computer reading posts with my eyebrows raised to the sky, thinking "What in the heck are they talking about"; difference being - I don't type it out and send it in. I don't have to agree with you to enjoy you.

To me, it's a pity that you and I are at loggerheads about this, because we have a lot in common; and we can talk and enjoy talking about everything, except, apparently, spiritual matters.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I am taking OFF the moderator's hat now, and putting on my just a member of the forum hat, okay?

Polly, I do not want you to leave this forum. I don't want anyone to leave!

Diane, I can't prove it, but my memory says that Polly HASN'T posted at CS in months. Perhaps you are thinking of Sojourner's forum, I think Polly has posted a few times there. You wrote: If you can not see how that statement re. little bit might be demeaning, than I am sure not going to try and show you." Um, what? If someone doesn't get your point, you won't explain it? That has been one of my major frustrations with these threads. Someone says something offensive, but then the offended one won't explain HOW it's offensive. Why won't you explain? I'm not trying to pick on you, really I'm not. But I'm in agreement with Polly -- I don't see how her comment about Little Bit was offensive to YOU. It's a fact, I don't understand. Given that fact, how CAN I ever understand if you won't explain?

You know, we all bring baggage from previous experiences, and that baggage can (and frequently does) color our emotional responses to things, even things that were never intended to be controversial. Some of my past baggage, for instance, that probably none of you know about me, is that when I was young, I was frequently told (none too pleasantly) that I was 'too bossy'. So, I try not jump in and manage things, to bend over backwards to let things play out here and to try to do things as Jim would want (no mean feat in itself, because really, I don't KNOW Jim either!). Because of that, I let things go along a LOT farther than I should have, when I should have done something a lot earlier. There, now you know a little bit more about me. I ask all of you to think about what baggage you're carrying around, how it's affecting your perceptions and your actions.

Please, everyone, if I say my experience is with XXXXX is positive and yours is negative (or vice versa), neither experience makes the other untrue nor an insult to anyone whose experience is different. Unless someone is flat out lying, and if we start making assumptions that someone is lying, we're just doomed to fall apart!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Whoops, Joy - I've been cheating on the forum - I have posted a few times at CS recently. I did stay away for a long time, but most of the trolls seemed to have gone away; so I answered a few posts there. Nothin like the good old days when I was up near the top of the active poster list!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Try August 18th on the "What are we doing to ourselves" thread. Was sure not trying to accuse anyone of lying. With all the crap going on over there I guess I didn't realize Polly wasn't posting. As far as manipulative crap, yup I can spot it to. Seems that what I told EM in my return post to her applies here also. Did not mean to hurt anyone, make anyone feel guilty, manipulated etc. etc.

I am so glad Polly that you have had so much supportive mail. I think that I clearly stated that I was a fundamentalist Christian when I introduced myself to this forum. I also think that there is a great big different between myself and little bit, but now I question even that.

Now if this is manipulative behavior..........so sorry, I don't see it. Had one of these little pissing matches back in 6th grade. Didn't even see it coming but somehow I had stomped on people's feet without even knowing it. Since it would appear that I am REALLY a big part of the problem here and people are soooo distressed and having to walk on egg shells. I AM OUT OF HERE!!!! And I will say it publicly Joy............you don't have to change the password cause I won't even lurk.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Oh dear, what a mess! Isn't there an old proverb that says "When you find yourself at the bottom of a hole, stop digging!" It just seems like the more we try to clarify and pacify, the worse things get. I suggest that we have Joy close this thread too, and that we all just post on the noninflammitory "normal" threads for a while. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I need to take a step back from all of this.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

I made my last post just before running out the door to an appointment. On the way, I was thinking, oh phooey, I need to correct part of that post. So here it is -- I wrote: That has been one of my major frustrations with these threads. Someone says something offensive, but then the offended one won't explain HOW it's offensive. Why won't you explain? I'm not trying to pick on you, really I'm not. But I'm in agreement with Polly -- I don't see how her comment about Little Bit was offensive to YOU. It's a fact, I don't understand. Given that fact, how CAN I ever understand if you won't explain?

What I wanted to add was, that last question is the crux for me, HOW can I understand something I don't understand (anything! Not just the question here.) if no one will EXPLAIN? I am far more interested in getting that answered than the other question.

I will be emailing Diane to see if I can change her mind about leaving.

THIS THREAD IS CLOSED. NO MORE POSTINGS, PLEASE!!

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001