After many years using Nikon mechanical cameras, I am ready for my first Leica M. Money is a consideration and it seems that most sources do not seem to sell much in the way of "user" grade equipment.I would prefer to buy an M6 with a 50mm Summicron and I have limited myself to $1500 max [the cost of a new gray market F3HP with a new 50mm!]. Can anyone advise as to reliable sources of good but well used Leica M's and lenses at reasonable prices? BTW, I live in NJ and have access to the NYC market. Thanks, John

-- John Myers (mymacv@aol.com), August 23, 2001

Answers

Tough call. From my limited experience I've never seen any M6's worth using going for any cheaper than $1200. At any given moment you'll find several user 50mm-M's on that auction site. Most of them will be quite old however, and you might instead want to consider purchasing a recent off-brand 50mm. Check out Cameraquest for a review. You could get an old user Elmar 50 in your price range but coming from the Nikon side you'll probably find the aperture ring not to your liking.

-- JM Woo (wooismyid@yahoo.com), August 23, 2001.

Most people only bother to advertise the mint stuff so phone and ask if they have any scratched up user gear. Don Chatterton and KEH regularly have user or bargin gear. Usually it is only cosmetic damage. Caveat emptor.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), August 23, 2001.

Since money is an issue, and you want a 50, you might pick up an M3 with 50mm Summicron. The body goes for $800 or less, depending on condition. The 50 "cron tends to stay a a fairly reasonable price.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), August 23, 2001.

I just bought a user SS M3 with an MC meter and 3 lenses all for under $1200: 50mm f/2 Summitar, 85mm f/2 Canon Serenar, 135mm f/4.5 Hektor. Should you prefer a Summicron, the DR version is relatively inexpensive. If you live near NYC you are the proverbial pig in sh*t. Good luck.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), August 23, 2001.

From what I have seen, there are 3 different types of M6's on the market: 1) Near new cameras that sell for near the price of a new gray market camera--why not just get a new one in the box? 2) nice shape older M6's, (maybe needing a tune up?) for a few hundred dollars less, and 3) well used cameras of unknown mechanical condition also selling for a little less than the cleaner ones. If a user M6 cost 1/2 of what a new one went for, I could see the logic, but they don't. So you end up with a worn camera that may need service and save a couple hundred bucks--doesn't seem like it is worth it to me.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 23, 2001.

Right now, with the price of new M6's so low, you can get a very clean used one for a good price; KEH camera brokers is a very trustworthy outfit, and last time I looked, they were selling M6's in EX+ condition (which for them means very little sign of use) for under $1300. As Andrew stated, buying a beater, if you can find it, will at most save you only another one to two hundred bucks, so it probably doesn't make sense to do it. And buying an old M2 or M3 will still run you $800 to $900 if it's in good condition, but I think it makes more sense to spend a bit more for a MUCH newer camera (M6) with a built-in meter.

You'll have difficulty finding a decent Leitz 50mm for only $200-$300, though. Perhaps you should consider a new Voigtlander 50mm f1.5, which is only slightly higher. You may spend a little more than $1500, but you'll have a nice rig.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), August 23, 2001.

You may want to try in Europe. Leica stuff is cheaper here than in the US.

-- Haim Toeg (haim_toeg@bmc.com), August 23, 2001.

A few years ago I purchased a Leica M3 camera with a collapsible 50mm Summicron lens. I paid $695.00 for the M3 (double stroke) and $495.00 for the lens. The camera had a few meter marks on the top plate and Vulcanite repair on the rear door. The lens was in spotless condition.I don't know if most would consider this a bargain but I never had any problems with either the camera body or lens. I had the body checked out at a Leica counter set up at Tamarkin in NYC and everything was working perfectly. My point: look around. There are nice pieces out there.Your patience will eventually pay off as mine did.

-- John Alfred Tropiano (jat18@psu.edu), August 23, 2001.

I went through this at the beginning of the summer. After searching hard, I found a guy in the Philly suburbs with an absolutely mint Leitz (not Leica) M6. I coupled this with a new (if your call seven years old new, although I did get the Leica rebate) Elmar-M 50mm/f2.8. I spent a good hour examining the equipment. I don't think your going to find a M6 "shooter" around for one very good reason, most people get their Leica's and keep them. Someone with a 15 year old M6 "shooter" probably has so much confidence in it, they're not going to get rid of it unless something is wrong. What you are going to find, is someone that never shoots and wants to sell an M6 so he can either get something else, or something that will stay in a box. This is the Leica owner to look for. Leica shooters tend to be very serious about photography, and their equipment, and they hold on to it for years. Why, you may ask? Because they've taken "Leica" photos and have been amazed at what they've got. You'll also find many, many shooters that only use one or two lenses and yet, create a huge volumn of work. Realisticallly, although I may be mistaken, either look at M4's or M3's or start thinking about #2k.

-- Leicaddict (leicaddict@hotmail.com), August 23, 2001.

You need patience to buy a cheaper-user condition M, but not M6 for your price, I bought a Ex- M2 just CLAed, with a Mint- 3rd generation 50 Summicron for around 1.2k last year.

-- Fred Ouyang (yo54@columbia.edu), August 23, 2001.

At this point I would look for a nice M6 non-TTL through a reputable dealer who offers a 10-15 day no-hassle return period followed by a 60 or 90 day warranty, and be prepared to pay around $1300 give or take. Buying a "mint" M from someone who has taken it out of the box once a year for 10 years is asking for trouble as Leicas need to be worked regularly to keep them from needing a premature service. For the lens, except for little-used focal lengths (different for each individual)I wouldn't pay for an M6 and then use aftermarket lenses on it. After all it's not the M6 that will give you Leica images, it's the lenses. A nice 11817 (1969-1979) 50/2 will run around $450. That's about as little as you're *safely* going to get away with. It is probably better to contintue to save for at least that outfit rather than to saddle yourself with equipment that will disappoint you, then lose money trading-up or selling out.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), August 23, 2001.

When I saw your note, I thought "M4-2, M4-P body, not an M6 body." Just looked at Don Chatterton's website and I see he has an M4-2 for $895 and 50mm Summicrons/Elmar-M lenses that would fit in your $1500 price bracket. He might have some lower end equipment as well that he's not advertising.

You might also call Tamarkin NY to see what they have, and B&H of course. Ebay is another place to look. I bought my first M4-P body from the for sale listings on AOL, and my second one I traded a Rolleiflex 3.5F Xenotar Whiteface for. Both were valued at about $900. M6s generally run $300-500 more.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey DiGiorgi (ramarren@bayarea.net), August 23, 2001.

Hi John,

even here in Europe an m6 about 1100 us$ right now. Since the Euro is raising over the last months I don't see that it'll be cheaper in future. But do you really need the meter in the M6 ? An M4-2 or M4-P might fit your needs as well as stated above - and they're much cheaper: You pay around US$1300 für an ok M4-X with a summicron here in Germany. These are the advertised prices, a user Leica is even cheaper: Paying about US$600 for an M3 is not unusual, but you have to find one - seems like leica users keep an eye on their gear. I just got my first Leica after toying around with some 70s rangefinders, but only because of the price: Paying US$700 for a recently CLA'ed M2, a 2.8 /35 Summaron and a 90 C-Elmar is where I couldn't resist ;-). What about a CL if your budget is so limited ? They run for about US$ 700 in ex+ condition over here including the summicron 40/2 and they have a meter if you really need one. But it is no M ... Keep looking, maybe try a search on google for the following subjects: 'leica DM M summicron' and try to convert the currency: 1 DM is about 45 cents. Traders usually ship to the us if you ask them.

Hope you're lucky finding one - Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), August 24, 2001.

Type "user leica" into eBay's search engine...
I bought a banged- up M2 for around $750 from a dealer in NYC earlier this year. But the finder was clean and the shutter and everything sounded good, so I was happy to pay the $750. Then I made the mistake of sending it to Leica for a checkup. They recommended a "revsion" which means takign everything apart and replacing all the small springs, etc... To be honest it was working fine and I shouldnt have let them touch it. In the meantime I paid and extra $400 for all the work/parts including putting a new rubberized eyepiece in. Another mistake was that if I am having them take it apart anyway I should go ahead and order a new shutter curtain. As far as I understand it a new curtain plus a "revision" = basically a brand lew Leica good for another 40 years.

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), August 24, 2001.

Hi John,

another source for user leicas might be www.leicashop.at in vienna. I've never dealt with them, but they seem ok. They have prices in us$, and also have some pictures on the web. Prices start from 750 for a user M2/3, so there might be enough space in your budget to fit in the lens you want.

Kai

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), August 24, 2001.

Hi John

Foto-C (www.ftoc.dk)in Copenhagen have a nice M2 for something like US$ 550 and if you live outside the EU they don't have to add 25% VAT. I only took a brief look at it when being there last thursday, but it looked nice, and was mounted with an Elmar 50f2,8 and I think that this have a price of US$ 200 but don't hang me on this last price.

This is well within your budget!

-- Kaj Froling (kf@draupnir.dk), August 24, 2001.

Thankyou all for your excellent feed back on the pros and cons of user Leicas. I suppose that I could sell my lovely Rollie 3.5 which has been kept sealed in a ziplock with silica gel for years simply because it is too pretty to use and then buy a new M6. I'm afraid, though, that the M6 would end up sealed in a ziplock bag because it's just too pretty to use. I really don't need an integral meter and I have given thought to the M4-2 but I've heard a number of negative things regarding their reliability including a warning from a highly respected Leica repair person. I've ruled out the M3 because I prefer the eye relief [for the 50mm] afforded by the frame lines of the M4,M6 viewfinders. Anyway,you have made me much better educated than I was a day ago. Thankyou. John

-- John Myers (mymacv@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

The M4-2 is a fine camera that had teething troubles in the production line (see 1980 PopPhoto review for an in depth analysis). A late number camera or one that has been CLAed by a good Leica tech will be as good as any other M camera out there. I know because I had one. It is getting old though and you should budget for a CLA when comparing prices. That also goes for any older M camera.

Cheers,

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), August 24, 2001.

I think it is tough to get any real deal on any Leica M - everyone knows they are expensive and desirable and worth real money. If you are prepared to risk buying a real beat up user then you have also to run the risk that it will need a major CLA by which time you might be up to the price it would cost new. In the UK Leicas are not cheaper. Lenses are about the same and bodies are the same number in pounds as they are in dollars - i.e. they are more expensive. When and if the dollar declines in value (quite likely I think in the near future) then this situation will change. I think there is no real answer but to save your pennies.....

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), August 24, 2001.

John - I live in NYC and there are two big sources of used cameras: B&H and Adorama. B&H has fewer but won't oversell you - I've been talked down a few times. Their website is usually up-to-date, and they're honest about quality. Adorama is a bit more hard-sell and it would be essential (rather than wise, re B&H) to examine first, not just call & order. Adorama has more used cameras & lenses to sell than B&H. Also, their website listings may not be current: They sold a camera on the weekend and still had it listed on Tuesday. After I bought a camera from B&H, they had it off the website within a couple of hours.

-- m bloxsom (penhelice@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

John,

Spend a few hundred dollars more and you will get what you want in great condition. It'll take some hunting, but a classic M6 for 1300 and a tabbed summicron for 500 will come up if you are patient.

I bought new and was very nervous about marking the gear. On the 4th day of my ownership I dropped my camera, marked it and now I don't worry anymore. :-)

If you spend a little more again you can buy with the Passport warranty and it's bullet proof for 3 years. You pay a few hundred dollars more, but it really does buy peace of mind.

It might seem like a whole lot of folding stuff for a really basic piece of kit, but use it and if it suits you, you'll understand what it's true value really is.

The best thing is if you don't cut too many corners in your initial purchase then it's highly unlikely you will loose on resale.

Cheers.

-- Simon Wong (drsimonwong@hotmail.com), August 25, 2001.

Simon's right, in my opinion. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't think you'll have any problem finding a very clean M6 for under $1300, and yesterday on eBay a mint 50mm Summicron (the version most people seem to favor, which is the model just prior to the current version) went for just under $500. You'll spend a few hundred bucks more than planned, but you'll get a pretty reliable rig.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), August 25, 2001.

I am currently using an M4-2 that developed a problem because it was foolishly in the area of a carpet cleaner! The chemical got inside and created some real havoc. One of the shutter curtains was damaged and patched by the previous owner, so it was due for repair, anyway. I shipped it off to DAG. He replaced the curtains, and he had to replace the focussing screan, as he could not clean off that residue. It was several hundred dollars - don't recall the amount. Ouch! Anyway, it's really a nice camera - after Don Goldberg CLA'd it. The camera got a bad rap, but mine is nice - now. John

-- John H Osterholm (barjo4@attbi.com), May 03, 2002.