The Double-Edged Sword and Biological Hierarchy

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After finally catching up on some past postings here, and wondering where everyone has disapeared to, and reading all the answers to Sheepish's post, "Why chose second class citizenship", I felt that a point should be made.

Freedom of speech carries with it the responsibility of not infringing on another persons freedom of speech, just like your personal freedom to do whatever you please does not get in the way of another persons freedom to do what they want. When the statement is made, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that is why I use Charmin bathroom tissue exclusively.", no one gets upset, or feels belittled in any way, it's a fairly neutral subject. However, when the statement is made, "Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, that is why I am/do/believe______________ ( your religion/political party here), this implies that if the reader is not________________, he/she is somehow number two or lower in the writer's opinion. It is a confrontational statement, eliciting either a positive or negative response, not a discussion or debate.

In addition, if the statement made refers to a religious affiliation/belief at the end of the statement, it is proselytizing.

Much was made about who should/should not be "submissive" in a partnership or marriage, from a strictly biological point of view, the female of just about all species, especially mammalian, is dominant. The female decides exclusively with whom she mates with, not the other way around! I think this says it all, and sums everything up right there. It is the "Alpha Female" that rules the pack, herd, flock, colony, and tribe.

Our words have the power to share emotion and opinion and feelings, but we should try hard not to make confrontational statements, unless such statements have been specifically asked for in a question. We must try harder to not act like bigots, and show more unconditional compassion for one another.

When I came here from CS, I said I would try hard to play nice in the sandbox, and not throw sand, I hope I haven't gotten any in your eyes.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Answers

Well Annie, I guess that I don't have to answer your question to my earlier thread as I guess you went and figured it out. I sure appreciate your thread here, as I really feel that this is a problem that should be addressed. I'm not sure that I understand the Charmin example, but I am going to read it over and keep trying. Hm maybe you could explain more. thanks TRen

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Well...I personally prefer Scott toilet tissue! Love that commercial with everyone walking out of the factory carrying a roll :-)!! Just jokin' with ya, folks. I agree with Annie, so please, everyone, let's all makeup and go back to sitting around the kitchen table with a cup of tea, coffee or maybe what we need here is some of that "pea pod wine"?? I REALLY miss the comraderie!

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Annie, I'm not sure that I'm following your arguement correctly, and if I am following it correctly then I disagree. Are you saying that simple statements of belief are confrontational and proselytizing? One of the things I love about this list is how we can talk about our life experiences and how those experiences have shaped our personal philosophy. I would hate to silence that.

In another thread Sherry has been asking about Paganism. If I make the statement "I discovered that I have an intuitive ability to communicate with plants, and that's one of the reasons why I'm Pagan" I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just stating a fact. If someone reads that statement and thinks "Well I can't talk to plants and I'm not a Pagan, so Sherri must think that I'm stupid", how is that my fault? For the most part I don't think that the problem lies with the statements themselves, but rather with the assumptions being made regarding the statements. Remember the old saying, when you assume you make an ass of u and me.

I hope that I'm misunderstanding your point. I hope that you're not saying that we shouldn't talk about our personal beliefs at all, because as I understand it this forum was formed to provide a safe place where we could do just that.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


Sherri, I was over-simplifying as an example. What I mean is hard to convey in words, I mean we are to consider to whom we are are talking to when we make statements, statements especially that are not an answer to a question asked. Religious statements should be made with the understanding that a completely opposite viewpoint will exist, and does, and how id that different viewpoint and religious belief going to take the gist of your statement.

Most, not all, non-Christian religions do not regard their beliefs as "The Only Way", the only "true" religion; the very nature of Christian belief is that theirs IS the only way, and therein lies the crux of the matter.

That's why when we all are discussing Paganism. or Buddism, and why we believe in these tenets, or not, that tempers do not get tweaked, these religions are accepting of the fact that other beliefs are there and to be accepted also.

Trendle, the "Charmin" analogy just illustrates the difference between a fairly neutral topic of discussion, and a religion/politics discussion. Far more care is required in a non-neutral topic discussion in the consideration of opposing viewpoints and beliefs. And again, it is very important that we don't get into proselytizing, I which Jim where here to help me explain this point specifically! My best simplified example of proselytizing is when you go on, and on, and on, trying to explain a religious tenet, and folks still don't get it, and you continue to go on about it, and folks still are missing the point, this can be proselytizing. Now if the question asker keeps asking more questions, the situation is different entirely! It is the unsolicited expounding that gets on folks nerves and patience.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


Maybe what all of us should do right now is go over to nearest mirror, stick our tongues out, and say to ourselves three times "Get over it".

Annie, I totally agree with you. Most marriages, mine included, are conducted with the well worn phrase "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". We guys will whine and moan about the way it is, but we have to face it; civilization would probably still be in the stone age if women didn't tell their husbands to get off their duff and get some work done. And no, I'm not blaming what has become of civilization on women; we guys deserved most of the credit on that one.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001



J.r. your too funny.

Annie, I know you have some very valuable ideas here, you are just going over my head. I really want to figure this out tho. So, is there a way that we can say what we feel without infrigeing upon others. OK I'm printing this out, so's I can study on it. It has something to do with Charmin? Ha! Kidding ,Really! Maybe!

Love you guys TRen

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


j.r. you are a brave, but good, man to admit that in public! I give you credit for your honesty and sensitivity!!!

Tren, dear, you got to get beyond the Charmin, honeypie, it's just a figure of speech used for example, tee-hee!

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


Hey guys (and gals!)...just to lighten everything up a bit...have you heard this:

Three Wise Women...

Would have;

Asked directions,

Arrived on time,

Helped deliver the baby,

Cleaned the stables,

Made a casserole,

Brought practical gifts,

AND...There would be Peace on Earth!

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


I can assure you Annie that there will be no more proselytizing from at least two of us.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

[Diane, I think that was aimed at the rest of us, not you! In fact, the whole post. Though I might be wrong . . . ]

Annie, I am just dismayed over the whole thing. I truly believe that no one intended to be rude, or overbearing, or hurtful. But we still ended up in a mess.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001



Joy, this is what I was responding too.....maybe I misunderstood what she was trying to say, but I don't think so.

"Most, not all, non-Christian religions do not regard their beliefs as "The Only Way", the only "true" religion; the very nature of Christian belief is that theirs IS the only way, and therein lies the crux of the matter.

That's why when we all are discussing Paganism. or Buddism, and why we believe in these tenets, or not, that tempers do not get tweaked, these religions are accepting of the fact that other beliefs are there and to be accepted also."

Just what the heck is that supposed to mean??? Seems to me that most everyone that is NOT Christian seems to have a MAJOR attitude about Christianity and I think perhaps that Cindy was very right. What I am wondering in my heart of hearts is why the heck Jim invited Christians anyway..................first mistake in my estimation.

Cindy stood up for the pagans over on CS. We both have taken a bit of heat over this whole thing here and tryed to stay the course, believing in our hearts that all the snide remarks would pass by after a while and we could all just accept each other for who we were.

As far as I am concerned it is a big bunch of hogwash that Christians are the only ones who think their way is "the way". Check out the world people!!!!!!!! Christians are killed and maimed in a lot of Muslum and Islamic countries and I can assure you that you would be to, particularly if you happen to be a gay woman. Then again Christians have been involved in "ethnic cleansing" in a lot of places. This whole forum has shown me how most people never hear or see what other people are saying.

For a few brief moments I thought just maybe we could have a little mini breakthrough here and as a group of people see, accept and love each other just as we are. I can never remember feeling more hopeless in my life as I have since I have really SEEN what is going on here. I am not saying that I am leaving, I really just don't know. I do know that it will never be the same for me here again, and my opinion of how "open" and "liberated" people are here has sure been changed greatly.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the whole "Christians can't stand to hear people talk about other religions" arguement. That sort of thinking may hold true over at CS and Freedom forums, but I have NEVER seen it exibited by any of the Christian folk on this forum. I have never felt threatened or harassed or preached to or looked down upon in this forum, and it breaks my heart that not all of my dear friends here can say the same thing.

I'm alternating between cold fury and tears right now, so I'm going to go to bed before I say something I'd probably regret later.

Love, peace, and clear thoughts to us all...

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Sherri, I do not mean or imply that "Christians can't stand to hear people talk about other religions" at all. That is not the point I am trying to make.

It does not have to be religion, it can be ANYTHING that folks feel very strongly about, politics, or world over-population, but religion is definitly the most strongly held belief most folks have and are sensitive about.

When you put yourself in a position that allows you only ONE CHOICE or ONE WAY of believing, you shut out all other choices, not consciously perhaps, but subconsciously, and this affects your perception of other's beliefs, and most importantly, your perception of other's opinions of your beliefs. Kind of makes you hyper- sensitive. This is the cause of the mess happening in the Middle East, with the Muslims and the Jews, in a nut shell.

To put religions, good and bad, in perspective, remember that Christians, Muslims, and Jews are not the majority in type of religious beliefs practiced in the world, and the problems that they have are not shared with the predominate religions of the world, for the most part.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Diane, Sheepish, and others who feel slighted or hurt by the current discussions, please understand that the whole purpose of this post is to try to enable us to better understand each other, and why we say the things we do, and how these things we say affect others, good and bad. I am not concerned about the subject being discussed, but the EFFECT it has on us.

The pain and confusion you are feeling Diane, deeply affects me, and I have a great sorrow in my heart for you to have to experience it, and would like us to learn from this experience, as to not feel this hurt again. We can only prevent this from happening by better understanding how we all think, and why we think, about things, anything! We must have true empathy, and empathy is very hard to learn, and even harder to practice in day-to-day discourse.

But we must try.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Annie, I really appreciate the fact that you are trying, as I was really hoping that we could find our way through this and have all our members comfortable and back amoung us. But now I just don't know, maybe it is really broke and unfixable. Bless you for trying. Tren

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Annie, not trying to be touchy here but just for the record I am NOT confused or feeling confused, nor have I put myself in the position to believe that my way is the only way. In fact, I think it would be safe to say, unless you believe that you chose your birth as some religions do, that NO ONE puts themself in that position. BUT, almost all belief systems do believe that there way is the best way or right way or whatever. IMHO what is happening in the Middle East has far more to do with power and land ownership than with religion. Religion is the excuse for one group to feel o.k. about battering the other group.

What I AM is disappointed, dismayed, and indecisive as to what I want to do about this forum. At the risk of sounding like Martin Luther King, I had a dream, a very long standing dream as a matter of fact, that peace could break out among all people as we all laid down our own little mind sets and personal experience and talked among ourselves. Don't see it happening here, in fact, quite the opposite.

I personally struggle frequently with whether to answer something or not. Am I answering because I have some big need to be RIGHT??? Am I willing to STOMP ALL OVER someone kind, decent and loving like Cindy just to prove MY point??? In the greater scheme of things how important is my opinion really?? Like Cindy said, a lot of horses have been let out of the barn here and I am spending a great deal of time in prayer and meditation to try and center myself and determine where to put my energy.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Oh my goodness! This is a computer forum! And nothing is unfixable unless you decide it is. This just gets more and more redundant by the hour. No one can feel hurt unless they allow themselves to feel hurt. And it seems that just when we get to the point of getting on with things, it all gets dredged up again. I don't know why, but it seems that whenever I make comments about something on these controversial topics it gets completely ignored. My comments are usually conciliatory and pointing out that we have differences, let's realize it, and get on with things. Do we each really have to be completely understood to get along and love each other? I don't think so. It's not going to happen! I just have to believe you all don't really want to get along.

Personally I care for the Christians just as much as the Pagans no matter what! And that's that! Now how about those positive thoughts, vibrations, prayers, etc. that were mentioned in another thread?

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Grandpa had a saying, "When in doubt, let the other person be right, you know your right in your own mind, and that is all that matters." Remenbering this one thing at times would sure make the world a better, and more pleasant, place.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Come on, folks...all we need is Love, ya know :-)! I hate to hear or see people fighting and arguing. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I don't want to lose the support that this forum has provided for me.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I guess we could send some people to time out! :-) That's what happens here at my house when we need to get things calmed down. Or better yet when 2 of my kids had been arguing all day and couldn't resolve the problem, I had them go to time out together and hold hands. They thought it was pretty funny! And it cleared the air.

So maybe just visualize holding hands in time out with the person you are having difficulty with. Kind of a funny scene, don't you think? :-)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Good idea, Denise. I'd like to send them all out to clean my barn and work together :-)!!!!! Just joking around with ya, people!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Well, I'm fine, personally. I just don't know what to write or how to say anything anymore! I can't control how people will react to what I write and now I'm concerned that I somehow should be, outside of just trying to be polite...(and apologizing when I'm not.)

I was out running errands yesterday, and thinking about what's going on here. I was thinking about how we all have different experiences with not only the topics discussed here, but also with how we deal with CONFLICT. I imagine some of us, while not happy to have conflict, certainly feel more at home with it than others. There are others of us who may feel extremely uncomfortable with it and either want it to go away, or else fix it. I know we all want everyone to be comfortable, but it may be that it's just not in the cards all the time.

I grew up in conflict....lots of arguing, etc. I don't like it, but I learned that eventually it gets over with. Sometimes we learn something; sometimes we become more entrenched in our beliefs.

Just one small point that I would like to make. Christianity is not all about keeping within a tightly-held belief system. The current version of Christianity that is repeatedly held to represent all Christians is merely a highly-marketed version of what a very vocal and visible group of Christians would have you think. This gets a lot of airplay as this group gets either loved by right-wing politicos or hated by left-wing press folk who don't know anything about Christianity, and get marketing benefit by demonizing the Christians.

Christianity is a loving, holy, mystical belief and way of life, which gets bashed by just about everybody. (I'm glad I grew up in conflict! LOL) It is just as special, esoteric, full of symbols, peaceful, and wonderful as those of you feel about your spirituality in other areas. The model that I follow is Jesus, and not the current group of leaders that want to represent all Christians.

I hope I can say this all without sounding prosylitizing or getting anyone in a huff. This is the only thing that I ever get defensive about.

But like I said, I'm fine. I hope everyone else is, or will be soon. Peace to you all.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


I never took any of it as prosylitizing. I think you brought up a good point which I hadn't thought about. That is: people handle conflict differently. When I was thinking differences, I was thinking more about past experiences and philosophies. That could explain alot! You have me thinking about exactly what my style of handling conflict is. I don't avoid it, but I don't go out of my way to be involved in it either. Interesting!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Denise, You are absolutely right, sorry I gave up in dispair there for a minute. Sheepish is so right too, I am one of those who always want to fix things, make everything OK.

Gosh yesterday , my food mill fell apart while I was in the middle of using it, and I got burned, and made a big mess on the floor, and a jar of our precious peach pie filling got jiggled during the commotion and fell, It was like I was watching it in slow motion as it rolled across the table,(I couldn't catch it, I had the dislocated food mill in my arms,) and in slow motion it reached the edge of the table and crashed to the floor. Well I sure didn't want to clean up that mess. I wanted to drop everything then and there and bolt for the door. But it was almost supper time, and Jim would be hungry and ready for a safe, uncomlicated shelter after his long day. The kids could run in any minute and get hurt on the glass, So I just cleaned , and cleaned and swept and washed, and soon you couldn't tell that trouble had reigned just moments before. And I made it. I have been fighting a cold,and haven't been having enough energy to get everything done. I made it thorugh and made it to bed, and today, I can face a clean kitchen and without any evidence of yesterdays failure I can go out and gather more apples and more peaches and I can try again.

Don't ask me what I'm trying to say, sometimes by writing I find my way to understanding. I guess I'm still on the cleaning up the glass part. Maybe I need to get past that , and get on with sleeping and waking to the new day?

I love you guys and I hope that you don't think that I am being callous by saying that. You have added soemthing to my life. someone's to think with.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


This thread seems to have taken a turn for the better, but I've been proven wrong on such thoughts before.

Therefore, I refer you to this thread for an explanation of why I am asking you to no longer post anything to this thread. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


ssssshhhhhhh........only in a placid pool can the moon be reflected in all it's perfect glory......jz

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2001

SHHHHHHH. NO POSTING HERE -- please see my last post here.

-- Anonymous, August 25, 2001

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