I'll start by admitting too much alcohol.

Our senior players, any teams senior players, are there to be the solid dependable backbone for the team, younger players, teenagers for example, will have good games and bad games as they learn their trade.

I had forgotten that two years ago we had generally agreed Robert Lee couldn't play two games in week, proved tonight, beyond all doubt he cannot play weekend/midweek. Where was he ?

Gary Speed is our goal scoring midfielder who does so much work off the ball. Pah. Their midfield took the piss out of ours from 5 minuts to 65 minutes. No tackles, nothing positive, nothing approaching mediocrity from Speed. I screamed when he went to take the penalty. Luckily I was wrong.

Barton. I praised Barton for a wonderful performance at Chelsea, he played well. Tonihgt he was appalling. The goal he gave away was a disgrace. We're not talking about some 17 year old who hasn't had "boot it out" drummed into him for his whole life, we're talking about arguably our most experienced defender, who when it comes down to it hasn't got a flippin clue how to defend.

Who told Dabizas he had the ability to stroll forward ? Time after time he lost it, time after time his wanton weandering played us into danger. When the going gets tough, and we play anyone with wit about them Dabizas looks hopeless.

Dabizas

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Answers

Appalling performances

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Troyes were a really good team though. Don't you think? No excuses though, our first half was a joke. I have said on another thread that Barton, Lee and Speed need to be dropped. Given needs a kick up the arse as well.

BR needs to play Griffin, Bernard, even Acuna before that lot. O'Brien is one of the best defenders at the club and he doesn't even get a full game. Lots of thinking for Bobby.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Comapre and contrast with Shola, say. There's a kid who more than likely will lose his place as soon as a senior player like Shearer is fit. Kid never stops trying. He isn't the finished article but he's only 19 for God's sake. At 19 he's taking players on, using skill, trying to make something of aimless punts forward from seasoned professionals like Lee, Speed, Barton.

Barton surge through midfield and aimless pass out for a goal kick in the first half was disgraceful, never mind the goal he gave away.

If anyone wishes to complain about the booing of Barton which I heard after the goal then just think about our place in the Uefa Cup for next season, think about the joy of European football, think how long we've put up with such rubbish, be plased you defended him, you applauding him all these years is why he's still here. But he plays in black and white so we have to applaud him, and support him, cos it makes him feel better and we'd hate to upset his feelings. Oh by the way at the end of the month he'll be geting his paycheque, out of our season ticket sales, of at least £40,000 for the month. Sound investment that one, give him a new conrtact for his loyalty.

Pah, more whisky please.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

AND

Harper MUST get a start

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Macbeth - can you really see BR dropping Barton and Given? I can't although it is blindingly obvious that Barton is rubbish and Given is totally lacking in confidence since his big error on Sunday.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

I think everyone is thinking the same macbeth.

Although I don't agree with the booing of Barton, I equally don't agree with the cheering of him. In fact that was probably worse. At least booing makes him realise that his mistake was bloody stupid.

Cheering him makes him think that all is forgiven.

I really really really REALLY hope that Sunderland experience the backlash of all this on Sunday.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Right now I don't really want to try to analyse it all - perhaps tomorrow I will feel differently.

You can bash the senior players all you want - there were undoubtedly some dismal performances tonight - but we were also organisationally and tactically inept, and while it pains me to say it, technically very much 2nd best for the second time against a good Troyes side who thoroughly deserved to go forward.

Frankly, it was only when we abandoned whatever our game plan was that continually placed Aaron Hughes at the hub of what was happening in central m/f (and I'm certainly not criticising Aaron here), that we finally took the game to the French and created some chances.

I simply don't know what we do for Sunday, but I am genuinely concerned that after tonights performance Alan Shearer is almost certain to insist he is fit to play. I fear for the possible consequences.

Finally, the only thing worse than the Toon's performance tonight was a shameful, spiteful SJP crowd who - after booing Marcelino's introduction in the last game - booed our team off at half time, and booed and jeered both Warren Barton and Shay Given following their errors. I never, ever thought I'd say this, but I felt ashamed to be a Geordie tonight.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Well, I dunno which thread to start posting on, but this one seems as good (or bad) as any other. Tonight's performance confirmed my worst fears after the away leg. Make no mistake, in both matches, Troyes oozed class in midfield. What did surprise me was how easily we overran them tonight in the first 5-10 mins. We won every ball in midfield and Troes looked distinctly ordinary.

But then we sat back, relaxed and thought the game was won. How many times do we have to do it before somebody in charge realises we simply can't defend a 1-0 lead - indeed no team should be so arrogant to think they are comfortable at 1-0 up. From that point on, the tie was lost.

You might blame the defence but IMHO, the main fault lay in midfield. Yes, Barton made a cock-up of huge proportions, but he didn't need the "home supporters" to remind him of it. Given made a weak clearance and I couldn't really tell whose fault it was for their first goal. Shola fouled in midfield (why did he have to drop back that far?) and they scored from the tap-on. We had no midfeld and left the defence exposed for their second (and although Given gave them the ball after a decent save from a long range shot, why was the guy given so much room to shoot in the first place?

I actually thought Barton didn't have a bad game with the exception of the goal. Yes, inexcusable and he should have hoofed it out. Despite his appaling pass that Mac referred to, at least h was making a driving run, which is more than the m/f did.

I thought Bellamy ran well and his pace caused them a lot of problems - but he should have scored in the first half when out thru. Ameobi looked unfit and quite rightly (IMHO) will not make the starting line up when Shearer and Cort are fit. Had it been up to me, I'd have subbed him at half time (so we'd not have scored 2 of our four goals.

When Bobby eventually made the substitutions (and what a cock-up that was - 3 announced and only one came on) the transformation was remarkable. At last sme passion (thank you Olivier) and some skill (Lua x2). However, to me, entertaining that it may have been, there was more farce than in a Brian Rix play (and no doubt more skill in a Brian Rix farce). It was good to see some passion, but no plan. Lua x2 at RWB and Olivier Bernard on the right wing. I bet (nay, hope) they've never practiced that before.

OK - I've had my say. Perhaps I'll be a little more reaslistic about it all tomorrow. Just about to watch the Ch 5 replay - if I can bear it.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Without blaming anyone (apart from YBR I suppose)....why on earth do we defend so deep? one of their players gets the ball on the half way line and is allowed to run unchecked until he gets to the edge of the area, someone needs to get to these men and make them pass the ball (or hopefully make a hash of the pass!)...we just aren't putting any pressure on the ball at all and it's shocking....

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Should we sign Batty?

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I've read through all the match views, and had time to try and calm down, but I haven't !!

Given .... two schools of thought, we have to pick him again cos his confidence will be shot if he's dropped, or we drop him. I can't believe his confidence is high anyway. Two shots from outside the box have passed him by in the last two games. I could never separate Given and Harper on skill level, Given was in possession of the jersey and proved himself to be great last season so he remained in possession. If Given is picked for Sunday then what about Steve Harper's confidence. He will know that even if Given lets in sloppy goals he is guaranteed to be first choice, far more demoralising than for Given, and if I was Harper probably time to question why I'm at the club ??

Lee and Speed are just not mobile enough to play together against a team who have pace. In particular Robert Lee doesn't have the stamina any more to play more than once a week. They both cannot play on Sunday, Speed has more chance of recovery so it has to be a rest for Lee. I wouldn't pick Speed either, but we need to be realistic about what Robson will do.

Dabizas had one of his performances of old, that we all fear he has inside of him. He has played okay for a while now but that has been because he really hasn't tried to be Beckenbauer for a while. He has a propensity to take the ball just a little too far, get tackled, collapse to the ground feigning injury, while the oppostion gallop away into the gaping chasm that is our defence. I know he doesn't do this very often but last night was one of those nights he does. If he is to be in our defence then he needs to be a defender, there are plenty other players who can do the clever stuff.

I saw a comment from someone that Barton needs to learn how to clear and then things would be better. What ? What ? Like Given needs to learn to catch the ball sort of thing. Someone else defended him passing the ball sideways or back to the goalie, but didn't criticise him for not doing that, or booting the ball into the crowd when he gave them the ball for the goal. It may have been that it was a highly visible cock up so everyone saw and that is why he is getting so much stick, but if he hadn't done it it wouldn't have been high profile. The second goal also raised question marks about Warren. The guy ran around him, to score, I haven't seen that mentioned on here, maybe it wasn't as bad as the 3rd goal but doesn't mean it wasn't poor defending. Just as Harper will be questioning his future if he doesn't get picked ahead of Given on Sunday then Andy Griffin must start to look elsewhere if Barton is picked. Somone said Barton was good when he came here. No he wasn't, he's never been good, until last Sunday, which now looks like being remembered as the "Barton game", just like the "Matthews Cup Final", sort of.

< Sarcasm alert>

I was appalled at the crowd booing Barton. When people come in to support the club they lose all rights to criticise players. When Barton made his worst cock up the crowd should have stood as one and chanted "there's only one Warren Barton". To boo him will only knock his confidence. We should stand up and be proud of our players, we should stand and tell the world what a wonderful right back we have.

< /Sarcasm alert>

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Oh bollocks! Must have nodded off again. Nobody told me we were winning the game when Barton screwed up. There was me thinking we were losing already and chasing the game leving it very sparse at the back. I had no idea that the other goals they had already scored didn't count. After all that it turns out that the new bbs scale rates any goal attributable to Warren Barton at four times the value of the others. So we actually won 4-1 but the Barton ruling made it 4- 4 on the night. Calamitous.

Why is it only written in the NUFC tactics book that when you lose the ball out on the wing every player must stand absolutely motionless until the other team has the ball in the back of the net? It's a bloody team sport. If you want to pick on individuals then watch bloody golf.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Macbeth, myself and (I think it was Bake) have 'blamed' WB for goals 2,3 & 4 + I criticised his potential as a coach, on another thread (sarcasm included).

I think WB should be a bench member and only used for the last 2-3 mins, (if we have at least a two-goal cushion!), at least that way he'll get the chance to coach the rest of the team his real forte, applauding the fans.

;7) One swallow does not make a summer! :-(

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Yeah, the Ryder Cup's next month ;-)

I think we should all start scouting for another player that looks like you, I was once in a bar in....

;7)

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Sorry, in case some people didn't realise, 'you' was a reference to Mr. Softie!

Softie, how's Nicola by the way, I haven't seen her name mentioned since she came out of hospital, I hope she's fast recovering?

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

"It's a bloody team sport - if you want to pick on individuals then watch bloody golf".

Thank you Softie for giving me the line I've been searching for. I have no problem with fans debating/criticising individual players in the pub, real and virtual, because that's part of the genre, and has no possible impact on team performance. However, 'spectators' who actually boo/jeer individual players during the course of a game frankly have no real understanding or appreciation of the game.

I say this because they cannot possibly understand the potential negative impact this has on the individual, and thereby on the team. Such blind indifference to the possible effects - ie. 'negative supporting' - in my mind totally disqualifies them as "fans" - and I desperately wish these 'spectators' would all sod off and take a course in car mechanics or home brewing rather than attending SJP.

Let's be perfectly clear, these 'spectators' - people who will vigorously defend their right to boo our players just because they've paid their admission money - and who are increasingly proliferating in the game, are not "FANS" of Newcastle United, or any other Club for that matter. Genuine "fans" have a real and important role to play - 'spectators' should just shut TFU, or don't bloody well go.

[/rant]

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

The amazing power of healing, Bud, out for a week and I have to go out to avoid putting her back in there (not to be taken seriously). Nag nag nag. Fetch this fetch that can you scratch my nose please? Bah!

Delighted to have her home :-)

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Someone else defended him passing the ball sideways or back to the goalie, but didn't criticise him for not doing that

Well friends this story's true, I was that deck of cards "someone". Except that I did say the Barton error was appalling. I don't think I can say fairer than that.

As for goal 2, I've only seen it once, live, but my recollection is that it came from left of centre with Barton chasing across desparately from the right.

Hell, lets say they were all Barton's fault and be done with it. I think he was to blame for Sunday as well when the sun caught his flaxen locks and distracted Given who was trying to imitate the Barton "clap" as the Zenden back-pass came in.

At least Griffen should get a fair bit of lattitude from the fans (one hopes) when he does get a game. Whenever he does make a mistake we can say that at least he's not Barton.

Barton didn't lose the tie last night. Bobby Robson did.

IMHO

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Well said Jonno, as usual.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

For the second goal Jonno, Barton was in the middle of the penalty area and marking his man who had drifted in from the right. As the ball dropped from Dabs head he moved forward to tackle his man who was about to receive the ball fatal error no. one.

He then hesitated about going for the ball and as we know he who hesitates etc. The ball reached the rousse lad and because WB was on the front foot the lad skipped past him as Barton was now too close to stop him and too SLOW to get back and Rousse beat Given with a well placed albeit scuffed shot.

Still agree about YBR losing us the match.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

For me their first goal was a shot from well outside the box, that ended up, after swerving, going maybe a yard to the right of the centre of the goal, at ptich level. Not top corner, but on the ground just off centre.

The second goal came from shortage of defenders on our side, and ultimately was from Barton not having the pace, or positioning to match their player.

The third goal came from their winger hassling Barton. Barton had time to pass back to Given ( but maybe didn't have confidence in him ), so he turned and looked as though he was going to put it into the crowd, instead, as last man, he tried to beat the opponent. The opponent beat him, had time to centre and they scored.

4th goal came from poor Given clearance that went to one of their midfield in our half. They quickly got the ball wide left, their winger centred superbly and the guy headed it in. The centre was excellent, curling away from the goalie and not really giving him the chance to stop it.

Of these four goals 1,3 and 4 were absolutely down to individual defensive errors, and 2 could be argued to be poor defending but I'd guess Troyes would say it was superior player skill.

Our goals.

1 Good Lee tackle, excellent Solano shot, our aggression, our skill. 2 Good centre, Shola attacked the ball better than their defender. More our skill than their failings. 3 Shola ran at their defenders, beating two, getting into the box for a clear penalty. Speed tried to miss the pen but scored. Our skill being superior to theirs, or their defenders being crap, difficult one, I'd prefer to praise Shola. 4. Goalie error

I seem to be seeing our players' contributions rather than the opositions but that is normal.

Solano and Shola contributed positively, and I see that as worthy of praise. (They may not have had 90 minutes of briliance but it's a team game !) Shay and Warren contributed negatively. I feel Shay is culpable in two of their goals, and Warren definitely in one of them, and not clever in a second.

Maybe it's a confidence thing with Warren. On Sunday he played superbly, no one doubts that. Suddenly he has a bottle of champagne for the first time in his life, and he's reading in the papers that he's a good player. He is desrevedly brimming with confidence. He knows that he's a good player, he knows can beat a winger, he suddenly tries the hard thing rather than the easy thing. I was away on holiday so I didn't see the Lokeren game but he did the same in that game too I believe. So it looks like one appalling mistake every 5 games, and one fantastic game every 3 years.

But it's YBR's fault for picking him, and Given, and Lee and Speed and Quinn.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Another first for Greenspun & NUFC - "Gary Speed gets criticised for scoring a goal".
Jeez, Alan Shearer may as well retire now. The vultures are circling - he has no chance whatsoever.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

My only gripe against the senior players is that not one of them is a leader (and I include Shearer in that). We so badly need someone to take responsibility.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Although it would be usual for me to knock Mr Barton, I'm not going to. He wasn't solely to blame, neither was Given or Dabizas, or Lee, or Elliot or Solano or Speed, who all underperformed.

We lost last night because Troyes are a good football team .

IMHO we perhaps could have won if we'd played some of the younger players from the start to match their superior pace, but We wern't too bad, they were just quicker than us on the nigh and made less mistakes.

I just hope that BR can learn the lessons from this game, and hope that he'll take a chance with some of the youngsters during the next few games rather than relying on the senior players who looked lehtaric last night.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Do you remember the selection policy of a Manager called Osvaldo Ardiles Rik by any chance?

If BR were to follow your suggestion we would inevitably find ourselves in the same position as we were when Mr Ardiles was blessedly 'released' - playing fairly attractive, attacking football and bottom of the league.

Btw - Robbie Elliott was neat & tidy last night in the midst of utter shambles swirling around him. Clearly you didn't notice.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Good point Clarky. When this point about young players was made earlier today the thought of dear old Ardiles came to my mind also.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Ardiles had nothing but youth to pick.

I sometimes wonder if any of Howey, Elliot, Clark, Watson, Thompson, Appleby, Neilson, Roche, Makel would ever have managed to get a game if it hadn't been forced upon Ardiles by the lack of cash. Compare them with any other group, including our Youth team from 85, and I think there are more of them who made it into professionals ranks than at any other time. Difficult to say whether it was them being blooded young, or whether they just all coincidentally came together at the same time.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

i harped on about this senior players thing a week or so ago and nobody took much notice.

fact is with the seniors (lee, speed, barton etc) you know what you're getting -i.e. mid table dross - YBR seems more comfortable with that vs. young players who could turn out to be stars or could make a few mistakes that cost us a few extra points.

i can't believe that the young uns (they're in their early 20's for fox sake) can't do better than the old guard -albeit with a few howlers along the way- and i think its time to let them prove their worth or get out, the alternative is as depressing as it is predictable.

p.s given is shite as well

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Not get much sympathy on here George, but I'm with you.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Gullit had the right idea, I couldn't believe the bloke next to me at the match actually agreed. Had Gullit had his way we would have recouped £15m+ from sales of senior pro's. Has Bobby just putoff the day by reintating the senior clique. The starting line up said a lot.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

No D-l-F. YBR saved us from humiliation. Whether he can return us to glory (of which only he and Jonno can remember), God (YBR again??) only knows.

PS. Was "the bloke next to you" the one who use the other ticket? ;-))

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

..... you forgot the bit about saving us from the Nationwide, Screacher - the 'achievement' that Gullit and Ardiles would have had in common if they'd been allowed to stay in the job for any longer and continue to screw things up. The same place BR would take us if he followed much of the Ardilesesque advice he is offered on here.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Sorry Al_K, that was the humiliation I was referring to. I think I need a drink. Did I tell you, I'm off to the pub???

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Ruud Gullit should always be remembered by football supporters when ever some one says "it took Alex Ferguson 5 years to win win something, we should stick with this manager"

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

..... yeh, I'm told you get some really exciting games in The Conference these days.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001