When this forum first started there was several references to being a pagan. Well here's whats on my mind. At the same time I was reading it on her, I took a test on belief net on what religion your beliefs fit into, I came back 100 per cent new age and 95 neo-pagan. I was a raised a babtist quit going to church at about 17 and was just not into anything for several years, thought it was either church or nothing. About 15 years ago I got to studeying metaphysic and finally relized that there was alot more than what I had been told or exposed to and I blossomed , I developed a beautiful spiretul live and put god or whateveer you want to call IT in the center of my life and found my self happier , healthier and kinder.I love the earth and have always since I was a child felt a strong love for nature.More like I'm part of it rather than looking at it. I'd like to know more about paganism and know that I can go to a site and read about it but I'd rather hear from my friends on this. Thanks for listening. Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Answers

Sherry, I don't want to put a label on my religion, I don't think that there is any right or wrong way to the sacred within. I think that it is there in all of us. We just have to take the time to find what is inside of ourselve, to take time to worship. I think that symbols and guides can help us alot though! The most important thing for me is to make myself go to what I call my sacred spot, which is encircled with four stones, one in each directions, There I light a candle towards the East and I lift a feather in thankfullness to the God of the heavens, and I lower the feather in thankfulness to the God of the earth. Then I thank the four directions, and the guardians of my surroundings. Then I pray that those who love me will bless me with their presence and I take deep breaths, concentrating on my breathing, and I listen. Some days I only have time, to do the thanking ritual, but If I don't do it, there is a missing element to my day.

I think that this time of worship is the most important thing, and it grounds me and makes me more able to deal with everyday life.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Sherry... I appreciate your post... but it got me to thinking (and chuckling)... I am "Heinz 57" religion person... and I praise the Creator for loving me!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Yes, Sherri, I know what you mean, I have never felt God in a building either. To me he is out in the wood,and the wild places. I too was raised very Christian. My close Grandfather was a Free Methodist preacher.

Cristian Religion just didn't set right with me, somehow.

I remember sitting in the pews on Sunday morning as a teenager, dreaming about my boyfriend. Some Youth Leader was carrying on about how God had saved him from all his sins. boy he sure had alot of them, all those sinfull things he had gone out and done. Drinking and druggen, and womenizing. I was setting there wondering if I should go out there and do all this bad stuff, so's I could come back and be saved. It just wouln't be as dramatic nor as exciting as his experiance,if I was allready good and then got saved, now would it!

Trouble with my mind is it allways takes things in different directions! Anyhows I really should be cutting up the apples to make em into applesause, before I have to run the girls to things.

Maybe I spurred a comment from somebody.?

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Sherry, I consider myself a pagan, but don't have enough time to get into it right now. Going to my niece's wedding tomorrow and still have lots to do. I'll try to contribute something when I get back on Monday or so. Sherri might have something to say as well, but she's gone to that Herbfest thingie.

Quickie comment though: I have never understood finding a human- wrought cathedral to be more amazing and miraculous than a grove of trees. Nor can man 'create' a grove of trees.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

No Tren, Sherry's thread is about Paganism, and hearing from her friends about it, and I don't think it would be right to start talking about being "saved". That is like major major thread drift honey. Let's respect Sherry's thread OK? Love ya.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Hm Cindy, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was thread drifting. Guess I was trying to let Sherri know that I related with her, and why I worship more pagenly then Christianly. It's so funny how we can try to say one thing, and it comes out to be seen as saying something else.

I sure didn't want to start any discussions about being saved, I was just trying to explain how getting saved didn't reach me. Oh I don't know, maybe I make no sence! I thought maybe she wanted to talk about why we believe what we do?

Well, you guys talk, Ill go finish those apples! Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Hey Tren I never got it either. Never knew what I was suppose to be getting. I chalk it up to we are all on our own path and I respect anyone who seeks their god thru Christianity, Buddism ,Wicca or whatever. My husband Brian and I tryed to go to church about three years ago, I think I was wanting to go to the pot lucks he he. I wanted to be a part of something and am always open to changeing my mind but it was a no go I felt like something was saying , this is not for you, Brian was relieved, I was too. When I hear something from several places and it's the same thing, I try to take heed. Like the circle of stones that like the fourth or fifth time in a month that someone has said something simular to me and the other times was not connected to this subject. I don't know if that makes since or if I'm rambling. I find the subject of pagism or earth based religion very interresting and real ,and want to know more .so keep the comments coming. Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Cindy I got to thinking, and I think I know where you are coming from and how my comments seemed. I appreciate you girl! I will try again.

Sherry, you talk about hearing the same thing repeated to you from different sources. Yes sometimes I too feel as if little messages are left in our path. Messages that give us direction and help us know which way to go.

OH! I can't believe that you said what you did about trying to go to church , you laugh and say maybe you wanted to go to potlucks, Oh man! I have done the same things! There are some beautiful little churches around here, in meadows, down country lanes, with wonderful people, Our wonderful neighbors have invited us and our children to Summer Bible school and all these wonderful things that they have. And I have thought how wonderful it would be to be a part of such a group, to be one of the ladys, to have a part. Some of the older ladys were so sweet to me, and wanted me to come and do quilting and such, I love the old songs, the hymns. There are a couple of these churches by us, and we have gone to different things that they have invited us to, and I have a longing to be a part of such a nice little group.

But when I sit in on a sermon, I just can't, because I don't believe it, I can't help it. So I would be a hyprocrite if I joined, became a part of , I just don't fit. Oh Sherry, thats so funny, my husband was always relieved when I didn't join too! Bless their hearts, they want us to be happy, don't they.

I think that no matter what religion we follow, ritual is an important thing. Like Christians worship on Sunday, that makes that day Sacred. We need the sacred.

Better go stir those apples. Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Ritual! Maybe that's what I'm longing for, Hum I'll talk to Brian about this later. Thanks Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Joy, I agree with you about wondering how anyone could see more beauty in a cathedral (or any other man made thing) than they could in a grove of trees.

It seems to me that every time we bulldoze something or pave it or otherwise destroy the natural life that is there, that we insult the creator to the utmost degree. We as a species seem to believe that our "creations" are somehow greater or perhaps more advanced than that of the creator. If nothing else one would surely agree that this is extremely rude behavior, if one believes in a supreme being that is.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

I sure agree with Tren about ritual!

Hmm. Nature and man-made stuff: Sometimes people felt so strongly inspired by their faith that they created great art, music, and poetry b/c of it. Christian or otherwise. Look at cathedrals, paintings, or listen to some soaring spiritual music. Stonehendge, Notre Dame, Bach, drums in a drumming circle...

I live in the midst of the beautiful creation of nature. The sea, mountains, rivers, greenery everywhere. I marvel at this work and soak up inspiration and re-creation often. However, the human creations can be pretty wonderful, too, although I think some contemporary religious architecture is about as inspired as anything at a shopping mall these days...

But I worship in a church that's 100 years old. It feels very spiritual in the sanctuary. High ceilings, stained glass windows, organ music, light shining in...and the thought of all those before me who sat in the same pews..

Just my $ .02

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

Cool Sheepish! Your church does sound like a sacred place. I can imagine how you must feel there. Yah, I don't know why we forget that man is nature too, I know I do! But we are just as organic and God made as anything arn't we! So what ever we create must be part nature and part God.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

Lapsed Lutheran here, never could understand the business of "being saved"? Saved from what? Good and evil exist only as a human action or behavior, so we are to be "saved" from ourselves? A confusing and senseless action in futility!

The Buddist philosophy of being compassionate to all of Earth's beings and creatures makes more sense to me.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

Compassion! Back a few month ago when Earthmama went to see Dali Lami and the subject was compassion, that was one of those things that had been coming to me from several places. I had always thought I was a compassinate person but reallized when we want to be a certain way the lessons will be put before us. Hurry back Joy, I want to hear what you say on this subject. Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

I'm back, Sherry, but this is going to have to wait until tomorrow or so. I am past making much sense anymore tonight. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

Sherry, I took that same quiz over at Beliefnet and my results said that they couldn't figure out what I was! hehehe I'm not quite sure what your question is, do you want me to explain more about Paganism or do you want me to explain my own Pagan spiritual path? I can do either, or both, but as I said to Diane during one of our visits "I'm not exactly your typical Pagan." :)

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

Sherri , Your own path would be very interesting to hear about. How does one decide to call themself pagan. Did you have "pagan " teachers? Hope you had fun at the herbfest, I'd like to hear about that too. Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

I just took the test over at Beliefnet. I guess I am a typical pagan as my result was 100% neo pagan with new age following at 88%. Sherri what DID your result say? You have me very curious! I know you asked Sherri, but paganism is nature or earth centered. That includes a multitude of different paths. Sort of like Christianity has many different denominations. There are Druids, Asatru, Wiccans, eclectics, and even Native American beliefs would be considered pagan. Well that's just a start. I can't wait for Sherri to tell us more! She has a gift for this sort of thing :)

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

Paganism was the first religion, isn't that what they say. It was just natural for a person who had no preconceptions to walk around and wonder up at the sky, and the storms, and the snows, and to be in awe at the power of the skys and the earth, and to worship them.

That's how I feel when I am in Nature. I am in awe of the creator of nature.

When I came here ,(to this life), there was already a religion set down for me to follow, all the tiles were in place, but I don't really know why but unlike my sister and brother, I rebelled against the tiles lined up for me.

Instead, I ran off to the the woods and the valleys, the hilltop, and the meadow, it was there that I glimped God.

The path that seems most dear to my heart, is Native American teachings, when I hear the voices of the elders, it is like they are playing back a part of my heart. I believe that the native american Indian had more spirituality in his little finger then the European man had any idea of.

There is a funny thing, since I have sort of adopted Native American Beliefs as mine, although I wear no Indian stuff, my hair is now long and straight and dark, and a few people have asked me if I have Indian in me! I find this shocking as I have blue eyes and fair skin. There must be something of the spirit an American Indian that they see!?

I think that the pagens of Europe and other countries worshiped with much the same background as the Indians. It's interesting that Christianity even adopted some of the pagen practices, changing them to fit their way of thinking, which is what we all do, such as the Christmas tree.

I love the idea of so many people getting in touch with nature.

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

I went out and worked in my garden for a while to organize my thoughts, but my thoughts are stubbornly refusing to become orgainzed today! So my apologies if this comes out too rambling or disjointed.

I don't remember exactly what the beliefnet quiz said, something to the effect that they were unable to calculate an answer for me based on my responses to the quiz. Then when I tried to retake the quiz I got a message that their server was down, so guess I gave it a headache! :)

My own particular little path is based upon reverence for the spirits of nature and for my ancestors. I believe that everything in nature contains a divine essence and a unique personality. I believe that anyone can communicate with these spirits, it just takes a quiet mind and patience (two things I'm not very good at!) I am of mixed English, Cornish, and Scottish ancestry with a dash of German for flavor, but I have always been very drawn to my Scottish ancestry. I have constructed my own personal spiritual practice by studying the folklore of Scotland and other Celtic countries, and using the clues found there to reconstruct a pre-Christian belief system that can exist in a modern context. Boy, that was a big, confusing, pretentious mouthfull, wasn't it! hehehe Maybe an example will help. In my reading I found out that it was a common practice to leave a small triangular section of a field uncultivated so that the fairy folk would have a place to rest as they travelled from place to place. Disturbing these areas would bring all sorts of bad luck. So I do the same thing in my backyard. I have a small wooded strip that borders my back property line which I have left untouched. The only time I go in there is to pick up trash that has been blown in there from the neighboring construction sites, and I always announce myself and ask permission before entering. I also have a small stone altar set up at the boundary where I leave offerings. I believe that all things are connected, so by honoring this small wild patch in my yard I am honoring wilderness everywhere. It also serves as a reminder that we all exist as a part of Nature, and that it's due to her power that my garden grows.

My spiritual beliefs are what led me to homesteading. It just seems to silly to me to say that I practice a nature-based spirituality and yet have no real contact with nature. Right now I'm living in the city, so I'm only in contact with Urban Pagans. August 1st was the festival of Lughlasadh, which is the celebration of the grain harvest. It also is the time where you thank the sun for it's warmth and light to help the crops grow, but to also ask her to please start toning it down a bit because if it keeps on getting hotter everything is going to dry up. Folks here in the city have no concept of a grain harvest, they just run to the store and buy a loaf of bread. They don't understand that when you're living from the land just how crucial that good grain harvest is to keep you from starving over the winter, and just how ecstatic you would feel to know that the harvest was safely home. They still celebrate the holidays, but the deep emotional connection has been lost. I need to have that connection. Just having my little 2-bed garden out back has been such a spiritual deepening for me. My dream for my homestead is that it can be a place where my city buddies can come out and really experience what the holidays mean; to harvest the grain at Lughnasadh, to slaughter the animals at Samhain, to bless the seeds at Beltaine. According to numerology, my karmic lesson for this life is to be a bridge between worlds. I just do what I can. :)

There's lots more I could say, but I'll let somebody else talk for a while. Ask me questions if there's anything else you want me to babble on about! :)

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

Oops, Sherry, I just reread this thread and saw that you asked me two questions and I didn't answer either one! I told you I was scattered today. :) My pat answer is that I've been a Pagan all my life, I just didn't realize it until about 10 years ago. I was raised Methodist, but I used to sit in the back of church and read Tolkein during the sermon. I've always been interested in the supernatural and the occult (I'm a Scorpio, can't help it)I used to do Ouja board seances and stuff like that. In the course of my reading I discovered Paganism, and it fit.

I have been blessed with some wonderful people who have given me advice from time to time, but I've never formally studied under a teacher. When I was new to the path I did take a couple of Intro to Wicca classes given at a local occult bookstore. That's how I figured out that I wasn't Wiccan, but the instructor is still one of my trusted advisors. I've even been known to ask some of the folks on this forum for advice from time to time. :) I have a wonderful group of friends that I worship with, and I've now got to the point in the local community where people are starting to see me as a teacher, which is a very strange feeling! :)

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

I’m not sure where to start either .. . . . . Maybe by sending you to a site: http://www.circlesanctuary.org/aboutpagan/Guide2NaSpiTerms.html

When I began to search for “something more”, Christianity was the first place for to look, having been theoretically raised as a Christian. But I could never feel a connection. I was seriously turned off, too, by the seeming hordes of “Christians” absolutely certain that THEIR denomination was the only right one.

I finally decided that the closest “fit” I could find was being an agnostic. I define that as believing that the Divine is unknown and unknowable. I realize that not everyone believes that is the definition of agnostic, but it was the one I used. I figured there was “something” but I couldn’t get any closer than that.

In the meantime, my awareness of ecological interconnectedness, the web of life, had been growing. Those words attributed to Chief Seattle, “whatever we do to the earth we do to ourselves” really resonated with me. I came to a belief that every being and every “thing” was all part of a greater whole, and as such, nothing and no one was inherently better, more worthy, etc. All of the “natural world” was sacred (in this instance, sacred is defined as entitled to reverence and respect) – the Divine is IMMANENT in all of Nature, not something outside. [These are MY beliefs, not trying to make anyone else agree]

Then, through a series of coincidences, I “discovered” Wicca and other Pagan (Neo-Pagan, really) religions and practices. Mama, I was home! (This is a commonly reported feeling of people who have “found” Paganism). That, and as Sherri said, I was one for years, I just didn’t know it (paraphrasing here). In a way, I still have the agnostic viewpoint, and I am very fond of that “story” that John so often uses, of the blind men ‘examining’ the elephant and coming to different conclusions. But I have chosen to celebrate the aspects that I CAN detect.

I, too, have been drawn to “homesteading” or more self-sufficiency anyway, by my connections to nature. I’m not where I want to be yet, but it’s good to have goals, right? :-D I am lucky in that many of the gatherings I attend are outdoors. There are a number of Pagans or Pagan groups with land in the country where we can do things, and Unitarian Churches where there are other things (brrrrr, winter!)

So, that’s how I got to Paganism. My beliefs are closest to the Nature Spirituality paragraph in the link I gave above. Sherry, or anyone else, please post if you want any elaboration or have questions. I’m not sure what you want to know, or what else I should say. And I think this is LONG ENOUGH for one post! ;-)

BTW, Sherri, how WOULD you define a "typical Pagan"? ;-) Around the circles where I've been, its sort of a standard joke that if you have 20 Pagans, you probably have 25 or more religions represented . . . Pagan is a VERY broad term, covers a whole lot of different beliefs . . .

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Darn, I meant to comment on this from Trendle: I believe that the native american Indian had more spirituality in his little finger then the European man had any idea of.

Tren, all of Europe was Pagan at one time, with it's own spiritual practices and connections to nature, but Paganism there has been suppressed for about 8 times as long as the Native American spirituality has been. Which means there are far fewer remnants of the European Pagan beliefs, though some are known. I think the (we) Europeans had it, but a lot is lost. :-(

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Yes, Joy you are right, I was thinking about my ancesters who tried to convert the Native American Indian. Glad you cleared that up a bit.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Gosh you know I got to thinking and considering what is going on , on another thread,I sure hope that my comments dont sound like I am putting Christianity down. I don't want to do that. I have some very good friends who are born again Christians, who get their inspiration from the Bible and from books such as Streams in the Desert. Now, we are still friends and we can relate. And I believe that their religion is very good for them, very helpful, and that they are better people because of it. Now, if my saying that the Native American had more spirituality then the white man who tried to convert him is offensive to anyone, please remember that I am speaking from the perspective that us white people tried to force our religion unto the Native because we believed that only our way was right. I think that all ways can be right, each person should find his or her own way. And what feels right for you is right for you. Said too little or said too much? TRen

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Joy, around here there is a very strong Pagan=Wiccan mindset. I'm constantly having to educate folks that not everyone believes in The Lord and The Lady, and that the Wiccan Rede is not a universal Pagan belief. What makes me even less "typical" is that I really don't worship any Gods or Goddesses. I honor the Gods that my ancestors honored, but I'm not really sure that they "exist" as anything other than a human construct. I do believe in the spirits of nature because I can feel and work with that energy, I just choose not to anthropomorphize (sp?) that divinity into human form. That's why I ususally refer to myself as a Pagan Agnostic.

Sherry, are there any Unitarian Universalist churches in your area? Many of them have Pagan groups, it may be something to look into to help satisfy your longing for ritual and community.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Yes Sherri there is Unitarian church about 75 miles from where i live, not to close but somewhere to start.Joy I went to the sight you suggested. I printed off a bunch of stuff to read later, thanks. Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Here's a couple of other sites that might help

Modern Paganism

Modern Witchcraft

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Here's one more :)

Pagan Paths

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

I used to say I was a Born-Again Pagan, but when I said that people looked at me funny. (Like I really care?!) I seem to sense a common bond between the posters here. So many of us have the same feelings of being more comfortable out in the woods than sitting in a man-made church. The building isn't what makes me uncomfortable because I've visited many "little brown churches in the vale" (was married in one) and the huge catherdals in Europe are truly spectacular. What makes me uncomfortable are humans preaching hell-fire and brimstone telling me if I don't live to their standards I'm going to hell.

I was baptized a Methodist, have studied the Catholic religion, gotten involved Wiccan, have been "adopted" into a Native American group and find that many religious rituals are very similar. I agree with Tren that rituals are a very significant part of my religious beliefs. I believe in a Creator who made everything we could possibly need and our job is to take care of the gifts given us. For me, that's done through my care of the land and the creatures of the land most often in a natural setting. Thanks for listening.

Wishing you enough.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

It seems like every Pagan I meet is either a former Catholic or a former Methodist. Has anyone else noticed this trend? Maybe I just notice it more than other denominations because I was raised Methodist and married to a Catholic.

On the subject of church buildings, they just finished up a HUGE addition onto my parent's church. The cool thing about it is that it was done entirely with materials and labor donated by the community.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Did I stir up something with my comments about a grove of trees versus anything manmade (from little brown church in the vale to Chartres Cathedral)? I totally understand feeling love and affection for a building for what it represents to it's people (and certainly understand the need for shelter to the less pleasant weather). I just don't like the exalting of human-made things over the 'natural' world. This is difficult to explain further without going into many paragraphs . . . .

Hmmmmm, my Christian upbringing included a small community church (non-denominational), Methodist, Presbyterian, and MOSTLY Lutheran. My best friend, also Pagan, was a Lutheran. Does that screw up your theory, Sherri?

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Joy you are screwing up my statistics. I'm going to have to revoke your tree hugging license! :)

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Please see this thread thread for a further explanation of the following request.

I am asking you all (including myself in this) to refrain from any mention of any Christian religion, Christianity, anything pertaining, in any further posts on this thread. It has been brought to my attention that some feel that there are instances of "poking fun" at Christians or Christianity here.

To be safe, let's just confine ourselves to things like how we "discovered" Paganism, Pagan beliefs, what practices we follow, etc.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I have been enjoying this thread and reading what people believe and how they came to it. Thank you all for sharing. It is impossible for me to separate my spirituality from nature because in nature I most often am able to feel touched by what I believe to be my creator. I found an amazing amount of strength in the customs and tribal music of the native Americans when we were introducing my children to their tribal heritage. I have often been sorry that, after their father and I were divorced, I didn't continue taking them to the tribal gatherings.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

So your ex was a Native? What tribe? Do your kids think about that part of their heritage much?

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Hey everybody, when I first posted this I hadn't read "the other post" except when it was first posted and didn't realize the controvercy going on. I reread it shortly afterwards and thought then "gee I could have picked another time to post this subject". Most of the people that I love most are Christians, it's been hard at times and gave me a feeling of being dishonest to keep my belief and curiousity to myself. I appreciate everyones inpute and also the respect shown by those that disagreed with it. Love to all Sherry

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Denise, ex was half native....Potowatomi, a small hunting and gathering tribe indigenous to southwestern Michigan. Have a great great grandmother who by all appearances was 1/2 Seneca, but, we don't talk about that. ;>) Children were young when they were called "little indian bastards" and we had to deal with it the best we could. Took them to a lot of tribal gatherings and they all remember it but have no real interest in pursuing it. The ex and I are still in touch, marriage was distroyed by drugs and alcohol but we still care about what happens to each other. What is the big laugh with both of us is that while he was exploring his tribal roots and I was pursuing the eclectic journey I was on, we managed to come up with THREE out of three fundimentalists. We are talking one son would be a Little Bit Farm fan big time. Neither of us have much access to his children because we would "pollute" them. So you see, keeping an open mind can have a big price tag attached to it.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Sherry, have to mess with your statistics too, I am a lapsed Lutheran who has mostly Pagan beliefs, with some Buddism thrown in for good measure, that and the fact that I have had a terrible time in my past dealing with frustration and achieving "patience". It has helped tremendously!

My great-grandmother was a white witch, that is what they called it in rural western MD 50 years ago for the want of a better term. My uncle, and I, are said to have her powers, passed to us when she passed on. I used to practice white witch craft as an adolescent, got messed up with a bit of bad witch craft, hexed too many people, one died. After hexing someone, I would have the awfullest luck and bad things would happen to me, usually in three-fold to what I caused to the person I hexed. So I gave that up, and concentrate on the healing powers we are supposed to have, and have studied alternative medicine and herbalism for seven years now.

But, like I said, I try to find my inspiration in the Dali Lama, and try to live by his suggestions in finding the path to "enlightenment".

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Sorry, I meant Sherri C, not Sherry!

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Oh Diane, that's horrible. Who was calling your children that? That's terrible. Shame on them :o( That is quite ironic that the kids turned out so different. I often wonder about how my own will turn out! You've had a very intersting life so far. I'm familiar with the Potawatomi and the Seneca (Not first hand mind you, but from study).

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001