Bobby Robson's dedication

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According to NUFC.COM etc, Bobby almost never misses a reserves game and doesn't miss the bairns playing unless they clash with the first team's games. I note in today's papers that Greening is still slagging off Ferguson for always buying in these days and never looking at the kids and that Tony Hackworth of Leeds says that O'Leary is even worse, never having gone to a reserves team match in his life. Dunno about you lot, but I find this strangely cheering as it suggests that Bobby will be there to unearth the great players in our youth teams. How long is it since NUFC had this sort of approach?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Answers

Is nufc.com back up, then?

I'm still getting "Document not found".

(If anyone's thinking of getting Telewest's cable internet service - the above is fairly typical because their webcache is utter, utter cr@p.)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001


Disregard that response (except for the whinge about Telewest which still holds true).

I didn't read it properly - "NUFC.COM etc, i.e. you were talking in general terms.



-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Shagspeare, surprised to hear your Telewest comments. I got Blueyonder installed 2 months ago, first 4 weeks a nightmare. Then I used our researchers to get the mobile telephone number of the Customer Relations Director. Result, serious internal arse kicking of the "fix it 'cos I don't want some scruffy customer ringing me on my mobile night and day" variety, and since then it's been a dream. If you want his mobile number, email me (and give him my regards!)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

It was noted that TSM did the same after his predecessors complete and utter failure to at least recognise it as a MAJOR part for the future of the club. The fact that we had to sacrifice it to begin with is one of the biggest crimes against toondom I could possibly imagine.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

.......and who was responsible for that, sparxx?? (just for Mackems who migt not remember).

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001


For all the enhusiasm for youth team development, we could have 20 years of good young lads but none actually make the grade.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

"listen... he said blessed are the meek....isn't that lovely, they really do need to be blessed" - woman upon seeing the messiah in the wonderful film Life of Brian...

Whenever I think of the messiah, I think of that movie... I wonder why?

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001


Do I detect an attack on Keegan's youth policy here? :-)

Of the youth players signed during KK's reign, Hughes, Harper and Ameobi are all important members of the first team squad. I suspect Chopra was also signed during this period but can't be sure.

Keegan correctly recognised that the first team is by far the most important thing at the club. Consequently he strengthened it and :-
Saved us from Division 3
Won promotion to the Premier
Achieved our highest league placing in nearly 70 years
Got us back into Europe
Increased the club turnover more than TEN-fold
etc etc

This DWARFS the achievement of any of his predecessors or successors (only St Joe Harvey comes close). Nothing we have seen since comes remotely near in terms of success or entertainment. Despite a perceived shift in emphasis on youth.

Youth is important but is not the be-all, end-all. Despite the vast amounts ploughed into Heath's youth development, they have seen fit to spend £47m on 2 players this summer. That with their VAST scouting network, and feeder clubs all over the place. And their most important player is still Keane (according to Ferguson) who cost a British record fee. Arsenal have spent loads on transfers. Blackburn won the title after a huge spending spree and just one home grown player in the squad.

I welcome youth development, but to criticise KK for ignoring it is churlish when you can see his youth players coming through and see his massive achievements in addition. Without KK there would not be a fraction of the resources we have available now for youth development.



-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

I'm sorry this thread got hung up on Keegan. I do think that Bobby's approach to young players is very good. Some at least do seem to have made progress in the sense of becoming better players. Its unlikly that a club could ever produce a complete team through the youth policy/reserves - but Mr. Robson is strengthening that side of the club. I said in another thread on "What do you hope for this season?" that further development of youngsters coming through is the main thing. I suspect that we may have to achieve that way before we can expect players to fall over themselves to come to NUFC. I'm VERY pleased that Robert did come - but there may not be many of his type for a while.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Sparxx - "Blessed are the cheese makers." "He obviously doesn't just mean cheese makers, it's anyone connected in dairy produce"

To take a different tone, I fear that YBR's interest in the youth and reserve squads is more of having to mend and make do. I don't think we'll see another serious money / talent purchase this season.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001



mend and make do. I don't think we'll see another serious money / talent purchase this season.

Mend and make do? He's now spent over £30m! :-) You might be right there'll be no more this season (we already have the 5th largest Summer spend in the Premier) but IF any further progress is made in Europe the extra income might yet finance more transfer activity.



-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

not to argue with you Jonno, but most of those players you mentioned were products of TSM... not KK.

The purpose of the thread was to recognise what a good job YBR has done with the youth/reserve system and who was the last manager to show such an interest. I think if you check the facts it was TSM... not KK.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


"we already have the 5th largest summer spend in the Premier..."

And the gap widens between us and the 4 who spent more. You want success Jonno? Remember that we are supposedly the 2nd largest club in England. How much money should we have spent? Who knows? But the last thing we need to do is start counting pennies.

It is imperative we keep developing the youth system, get a youth academy as Sir John wanted, and more important than that, keep top quality football alive in the Northeast for the years to come. We should be the measuring stick. Not trying to measure up to others.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


Dave - that's the risk all clubs must take, partly for the good of the game and partly for the chance that they may uncover the next Gazza. Bobby Robson wouldn't sign for us because we had a crap youth policy, Jackie Milburn told Bobby Charlton not to sign for us because our youth policy was so bad, Alan Shearer went as far away from our youth set up as he possibly could and so did Michael Carrick. This is why clubs like NUFC must have good youth policies and why it is heartening that YBR doesn't neglect it.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Jonno, you make it sound like Keegan personally signed those lads for the academy: apart possibly from Hughes, I'd be amazed if he'd heard of any of them. Are you prepared to heap praise on Dalglish for unearthing the Caldwells ;)?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


The purpose of the thread was to recognise what a good job YBR has done with the youth/reserve system

That's what I thought but someone hijacked it to have a go at Keegan!! :-) A right of reply exists surely?

I think if you check the facts

I always do. I'm subject to error or dubious sources like anyone else but I'm pretty sure that Ameobi, Hughes and Harper were all signed prior to TSM. Chopra I'm not sure of, as I said earlier. I stand to be corrected if someone knows different.

I agree with you that it's important to pursue the youth system and I made my points to defend what I felt was a largely unjustified swipe at KK's effort in this area, namely complete and utter failure to at least recognise it as a MAJOR part for the future of the club. The fact that we had to sacrifice it to begin with I honestly feel this is very wide of the mark. The youth system was, as far as I know, never scrapped - the reserves were for a particular and definite reason - the state of the pitch.

As regards the money spent I was challenging the assertion that YBR has had to "make do and mend". I made no comparison to the other clubs as that was not related to the "make do and mend" issue. We will compete with anyone on transfers as soon as we can get back into regular European football (like Keegan delivered.)

I've never understood your constant critique of Keegan but you're entitled to your view which I always find interesting. No-one is beyond criticism, of course. In the final analysis we both want the same end-result (which KK, came closest to delivering).



-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

I spent many miserable nights freezing my balls off in the presence of a certain Dutch manager. You know the chap, brought Dalglish, Robinson, Brady, McClen, Saha and Beharrall into the first team and continued to play Hughes, Glass, Griffin and Serrant. It seems a little odd that people who consider him a complete horse's arse are congratulating Bobby for doing exactly the same thing as though it is some "new direction".

The bottom line at NUFC these days is that we are taking such a keen interest in the youngsters because we simply can't afford to buy enough players without them. The people who brag about spending 100mil a year would doubtless do so if they had it. Might do us a world of good in the long run, but they have only done anything about building the academy now we have had to start financing purchases through sales.

Incidentally, we wouldn't have scrapped the reserves (didn't effect anyone else) if we could have played our reserve games elsewhere. Funny how they changed the rules after we pulled out: not like the FA to make a decision until they are backed into a corner, is it? Was everyone else threatening to pull out as well?

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


Are you prepared to heap praise on Dalglish for unearthing the Caldwells ;)?

Why wouldn't I? I've given TSM praise for the signings of Speed (although he didn't know how to use him), Solano, Hamman, Dabizas, Given, Ketsbaia and defended the purchase of Guivarch because he cost us nothing. I've also castigated TSM for destroying the team while he was here.

But why raise the question? If the price of signing the Caldwells was losing our status as a top 6 side, losing our status as European qualifiers, losing our "Entertainers" tag, then I wish I'd never heard of them OR TSM. No disrespect to the Caldwells of course. I won't damn them by association with the man who signed them and authored these disasters. I hope for great things of the Caldwells and if they make the grade praise will be directed in TSM's direction. I've always been fair to TSM (more fair than he was to us) and it's fair to say he was a disaster.

you make it sound like Keegan personally signed those lads for the academy

I didn't think I made it sound like that at all. Sorry if my words are misleading. I said "signed during his reign". I wrote what I did to rebut the idea that we ever scrapped the youth strategy and stressed that we did have a youth strategy while he was here. (It did take a lesser priority - there were important things like relegation to avoid - promotion to be achieved etc). Those signings, I contend, are evidence of a youth strategy. I don't expect that KK signed any of the players or trained them - but then I wouldn't expect the first team coach to do so.

I suspect that we invest more in youth today than what the total turnover was when KK arrived. He is the one mainly responsible for that huge boost in turnover. He delivered the Premiership and a Worldwide fanbase which successors have come close to losing.



-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Softie, since I started this thread, I assume it's me you're talking about although I'm not sure I have ever called Gullit a horse's arse :) Gullit bought two expensive centre halves when the club was full of centre halves so, IMHO, he wasn't as wedded to youth development as you suggest. He played the bairns when others got injured (eg. Griffin, Hughes and Beharall). Serrant didn't get a game for almost a year and he dropped Dalglish pretty much as soon as he picked him. Yes, he gave McClen a new contract (although it looks like he isn't good enough) and gave Paul Robinson a go although he has proven that he isn't even good enough for the first division. It's not just about us not having money: it's about being sensible and realising that the very best teams have homegrown elements and sustainable growth is always based on good youth policies (which is why, in recent seasons, teams like Ipswich and West Ham have, by and large, left us for dead despite having almost no money) - WH were poor last season but had been 9th twice and fifth once in the past three seasons. Of the top 5 sides, only Chelsea have no discernible youth policy at all and they are the shakiest of them all.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Jonno, I am not sure I agree that two players (Hughes and Ameobi) graduating to the first team is evidence of a youth strategy - I mean, in the same period, West Ham have had Carrick, Cole and Lampard come through, Liverpool have had Owen, Carragher, Gerrard and others, Man Utd have had Chadwick, Brown and the Nevilles, Ipswich have had Titus Bramble, Kieron Dyer and most of their first team..the point I'm trying to make (badly ;)) is that I think any lads who have come through from the Keegan era have done so more through good luck than good management. Obviously we'll never know, and while we may have lost Michael Carrick to West Ham, the Hammers offered Aaron a contract and he chose us so there was obviously something there to impress). Regarding TSM and destruction of a top 6 team, I firmly believe that he wouldn't have found it so easy to destroy if there'd been any substance to what had been built. Which is not a critcism of KK - he had a brief: to create a winning first team.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

i'll argue with the notion that BR is a champion of the youth system.

ameobi and hughes were foisted on him when everybody else was injured, we have several "promising" players in the reserves, green, kerr, mcmenamin, caldwells etc.who can't get a game in the 1st team. meanwhile, we are still offering a new contracts to the likes of lee and barton. if any of those young players are any f***ing good at all they should be using the likes of lee and barton as dummies for target practice, if not they should be let go (they're in their 20's not kids any more)

which brings me to my point, BR has a history of being conservative in introducing young players, gazza would not have played in italia 90 had neil webb not sprung his achillies a few months before. i can't believe the young players at sjp would do any worse than lee, speed and barton if given a chance, and who knows one or two might even be stars, but we'll probably never know.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


"BR has a history of being conservative in introducing young players..."

Anybody check Shola's Birth Certificate? What about young Caldwell who had a run out in the side last year?

Check Please!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


sparxx: he didn't have any choice with shola or caldwell -everybody else was injured- when he does have a choce he always opts for the experienced players, which may be the right thing to do, although it implies that the younger squad are all lacking the potential to play ahead of WB GS and RL - in other words they're crap.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Got to stop this annoying habit of calling some of our squad members, bairns or kids , i agree with gb on this one , they are young men for hells sake and at 18 should be able to be look after themselves,all they require if they can play is the nous that goes with regular games in the Premier. Did anyone years ago when Duncan Edwards bestrode the field like a colusses,exclaim `he was classed as a fine young player, like the 18 year old in midfield for Ajax, great player if your good enough, your old enough , the problem in football terms is that to encourage the nous , one must have a sprinkling of good seasoned pro`s around you , in Newcastle`s case we have none and who we have are past their sell by date

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Thanks for your points Dougal. You mention some clubs there with excellent youth systems - fine. I was never arguing that we had the best academy in place. All I did was contend the assumption of KK's complete and utter failure to at least recognise it as a MAJOR part for the future of the club. The fact that we had to sacrifice it . I have demonstrated that we always had an academy under KK, it was never scrapped, and during his era FOUR current members (3 good ones!) of the first team squad were signed, and I've got their signing dates now from "United Front" a new Chronicle publication, (Harper July93, Hughes July95, McClen July94 and Ameobi July95). Ameobi would be instrumental in getting cousin Offiong in. I have no signing date for Offiong or Chopra as they are not yet registered in the first team squad. Four players, therefore, the youth system was never scrapped.

Your examples are interesting. Man Utd and Liverpool have won lots and produced very good players although both are far from shy in the transfer market. WHU and Ipswich have to have youth as a means of survival. They cannot compete in the transfer stakes with a club the size of Newcastle (that's not arrogance for the benefit of the lurkers - just a fact - look at attendance figures).

Going back to your first post on this thread it's interesting that Ferguson and O Dreary (who manage clubs with very successful academies in recent years) both come in for criticism. Obviously the academy is something that is delegated by the manager but it's good to hear YBR is in close touch.

In "The Gates of Eden" Dylan writes he weeps to wicked birds of prey Who pick up on his bread crumb sins . Any shortcomings in KK's youth policy are "bread crumb sins" in comparison to his vast achievement. It is ludicrous, IMHO, to blame him for what happened since he left. Managing to get Carrick would have been no guarantee of success. He's not a left back and he's so good he'd have been shipped out with Tino and Ginola most likely! :-)

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


Jonno, that is how I was hoping this thread would end: with the hope that Man utd and Leeds are going the way Liverpool went a decade ago - buying in and buying in and basically sowing the seeds of their own destruction ;) Buff, I half agree with you - we have about ten players who are in their twenties who never see first team football and who should be got rid of: they aren't bairns. However, I think you have to treat younger players with some caution..I read with interest Alex Ferguson's views on why Michael Owen has taken three years to recover from France 98 etc (too much first team football too soon).

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

so Michael Owen has spent the last three years recovering, oh my god are we in trouble then !!!!

Shola would never have got a start last year if either Cort or Shearer had stayed fit. He got 10 minutes against Chelsea at home and qarter of an hour away at Soton the next week (16th Sept). His next appearance was Boxing Day. The game before Shearer played up front on his own on cortisone, Cordone came on as sub.

I'm with GB and Buff on this (can I buy you a drink George, maybe you can come along to Bay Horse and meet SK too !!). Speed, Lee and Barton (and Shearer ?) should be the old hands helping younger players in, not old has-beens blocking younger ones from getting in.

I know I slag off Barton and Speed and it upsets some people, but I wouldn't do it if i felt they were either making some great contribution themselves, or if they were aiding development. Speed's mouth is a disgrace and you could make a case for saying Shola is learnign from him. Barton gives 100% and that is something to pass on, but it doesn't compensate for lack of basic talent. None of Lee/Speed/Barton can be seriously viewed as McAllister or Sheringham or Stuart Pearce in either their performance or inspiration. If we are to have senior pros they need to be good ones, not just players who "don't let the manager down".

On a brighter note at the end of last season in The Mag there was an interview with Alan Irvine. He explained that the u-19s had let a forward go (Gall maybe?) because he was blocking the progression route that Offiong and Chopra needed to go through. A damn good read The Mag sometimes, even if it isn't the C&SA.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001


Of course he's been recovering, MacB. How many goals has he scored in the past three seasons? He has just worked out the knack of penetrating our defence.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

21 year old Owen has struggled to get 46 league goals in just over 80 league appearances since he exhausted himself at the 98 World Cup

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

And at least 7 of those were against us, weren't they? MacBeth, you're right, he scores when he's fit but he spent most of the first two seasons after the World Cup on crutches (almost always hamstrung).

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

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