I had a heated arguement in my local about pay per view football .In my view i think it will kill the game by driving away the real fans and only embracing the 'armchairs'. Of course i know that people cannot get to matches for various reasons but my point was based on your forthcoming match against Chelsea.You have only taken 1500 tickets for the game and knocked back the same amount.Nufc could easily sell 3000 yet real fans who would put in the effort to go are being denied the chance.Also the 2pm sunday kick off is in my opinion worse than saturday 3oclock.This is the start of no tickets for away fans!My arguement was met with'times are changing'but will they still accomadate those whos' passion for the game extends beyond the remote control? Oh and finally JONNO, if you are to contribute to this thread,try and keep your hatred for Sunderland out of this arguement that i feel has dire consquences for loyal football fans.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Answers

I can speak from the Canadian/North American view only Kev, (I left the NE in 1980). PPV is a big thing here, for instance you can buy a Hockey or Football(American)season ticket for your TV. Given the exhorbitant prices for going to the stadium, it is a viable alternative for the everyday fan. The passionate fans will still go to the stadium if they can afford it. It's like the chicken and the egg argument. Players get astronomical salaries, mostly paid for by the astronomical TV revenues, what is left is astronomical prices for the "pleasure" of seeing your team in the flesh. Hopefully PPV will make the clubs reduce the stadium prices so the average fan can afford to go. The "also interested" fans will stay at home or watch the game in the pub. The TV networks already govern the schedules. They even govern the commercial breaks. Yes, the players all stand around until the commercial is finished, then off goes the light and play resumes. For the TV fan, it's like the game never stopped. But now a 1 hour hockey game, 1 hour Football game or a 1 hour Basketball game lasts on aveage 3 hours.

It's here to stay, so get used to it. It's not a sport anymore. It's a very lucrative business these days.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

As I've just said on another thread it would appear the Chelsea game is not on in Japan. I would pay to watch it - no doubt about it.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Like I've said before, I'd never dream of sitting home watching the game. Either go to the match or get thee to the pub with yer mates. Pay per view will force people out of their homes and into the pub. You might even get people going to the match more. I don't know what sky are charging, but if it's 15+ squid then I'd expect a few more people to go the whole hog and go to the match proper.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

The average for a "soccer" game here is $19.95, or arond 9 to 10 quid, so either off to the local pub (at 8 o'clock in the morning, or noon on a weekday) or buy the thing at home and have some mates round. That doesn't go over well with the Mrs on a Sunday morning though. Might work well in Ingerlund though.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Havin one ower on the missus on a Sunday morning is the same the world ower man :-) Havin the lads ower too could be deemed good or bad .. depending on what your missus likes ;)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

For me the PPV means extra matches that I can watch - SkySports in New Zealand are showing the PPV games as well as the 4pm games for no extra cost. Nothing beats being there though.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

As somebody who i just about to shell out £60 for the "bargain" of an extra 40 matches or so per season, I suppose I'd be a bit hypocrytical if I criticised it.

The "normal" price is £8:95 per game I think, and seeing as 3 of Toon's first 3 extra appearances are at home when I will be at the match, so I won't get my value for money for those games. However, if I watch 7 additional games over the season, I will be quids in. It won't stop me going to many away matches (I refuse to pay £37 at the Bridge) but will give me an opportunity to watch some additional matches.

However, I do take your point SK (and a very good question - keep going to the pub if it sparks debate like this ;-) Who knows where it will lead? Currently, we are slated to be on 3 times (in what I believe is the first half of the schedule) so presumably my make that 6 in a whole season. If the law of averages applies (clearly itwon't but let me continue anyway) 3 of those will be at home and 3 away. I will go to SJP for the home matches, so it will give me an opportunity to watch my team 3 more times in the season. Yes, it is likely to stop me going to those 3 matches, but it is likely that will allow my budget to take in some others I would have missed previously (but NOT the Bridge).

However, if it was to extend to every match (and the technology is there to do it) then it might be a different matter. At that stage, I may well change my view.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Kegsy, You can try checking if ESPN is carrying it on their channel. I have check the listings for Malaysia and it will be live on ESPN for the local cable subscribers. Go to www.espnstar.com - click on tv listings and key in your country and network blah,blah to check. The same goes for all you exiles. It might just be on ESPN as they seem to have the rights this season. They will be showing the Mackem match as well.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I'll throw in my sixpence worth, although my circumstances are probably a bit different to the vast majority of fans. I've got 2 problems with ppv, one personal, and the other as it affects the clubs incomes. I live in West London, but I've got 2 season tickets, one for me and one for the lad. We drive up on Saturday mornings very early for home games, sometimes travelling back on near empty roads Saturday evenings or sometimes Sunday mornings (stay over with folks in Rowlands Gill). The point is, ppv as announced so far this season, plus games moved to accomodate EUFA cup/Champions League/Internationals mean that there are very few Toon home games on Saturday before Christmas. And driving back Sunday evening is a mare. So if I don't travel I've got 2 unused season tickets, and the option to pay a further £8 to watch a game at home instead of live. I don't have a problem with ppv in principle - if you don't want to pay no- one is forcing you to - but it's the effect on Saturdays games I object to, and the fact that the best games that used to be on SKY subscription will be moved to ppv, and only the crap will be left at the normal 4:00pm Sunday slot. (which makes me consider scrapping my SKY Sports 1 contract). Why not have ppv on Saturday if support is so strong. If the trend to play ppv games on Sundays continues I doubt I will renew my season tickets next time around. In fact, if they had announced the ppv induced fixture changes before ST renewal this year, I doubt I would be sitting on 2 STs now. Not because I prefer ppv, but because I prefer Saturday 3:00pm footy. I also think that as ppv increases, the clubs will suffer, as fans at the margin gradually switch over from STs to ppv. There's only so much that the average fan has available to spend, and whilst the market may not yet be at saturation point, it's pretty damn close. And I don't go along with the "there's nothing you/we can do about it, change is bound to happen" guff that gets spouted by SKY payrolled journo's like Brian Wool... whatever his name is. For him and his mates it's a living, for us its a way of life. Assuming that each of us only has so much to spend on footy after kids, mortgages, bills and stuff, something has got to give. And if it's not ppv, then it will be STs, or replica tops, or travel to away games, or something else that wil affect club income.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Thanks Gene, but no joy - ESPN Japan has NHL and something else on it. I've spoken to the customer disatisfaction centre and they have said that they are showing every Arsenal and Bolton game live. And the only other game this w/e is the Man U game.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

finally JONNO, if you are to contribute to this thread,try and keep your hatred for Sunderland out of this arguement

SK - I'm sick and tired of being misrepresented on this board (by Toon fans as well as yourself). PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

Once again I challenge you to WITHDRAW or APOLOGISE. If you can point to ONE SINGLE POSTING OF MINE that indicates a hatred for Sunderland I'll accept what you say. If you READ WHAT I SAY instead of coming out with your prejudices you will find I have promoted friendship between Mackem and Magpie for at least the past 12 months. (I have to say I have been disappointed with the standard of Mackem posts on here with only ML3 entering into the spirit of things.) What will it be SK - an abject apology (or a squirming one like the last one you were forced to offer me), or will you perpetuate your prejudice?

Oh and you're a bit late with this theme. I've already expressed my total opposition to PPV.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

No need to get so snotty about it Jonno....the lad is trying to join in constructively....

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Gav - I have been misrepresented. The man is telling LIES about me. I will not stand for that.

I'm disappointed not to be supported in this - if anyone agrees with what SK said about me then the challenge goes out to you as well. Support the lies with evidence or support me.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I don't think you're wrong and i'm certain that you don't have a hatred of Sunderland...I just think you're maybe over-reacting a little bit....it's one of the only times he's tried to start off a decent discussion, it'd be a bit of shame to turn it into yet another slagging match....

I'll just keep my mouth shut and keep out of it I think....

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Agree with Gav. This constant bitching gets boring. We all have a choice. If we see a Mackem posting we don't have to read it. If we do, we shouldn't be surprised if it's vitriolic. That's why the Mackems post here, not'cos they love us and the Toon and would rather chat with us than their mates on their own board (which I have never had the inclinitation to visit, BTW, even out of morbid curiosity). And if they accuse us of something we/you haven't done/said, so what. Although, on this occassion SK was just making a general footy point as it happens, and one with which I agree. Save the bitching for match day.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

PPV has its pros & cons but the biggest kick in the teeth is that a lot of punters have already handed over a wedge for the sports on the assumption that includes the top games, now we find out that this is not the case. The away ticket allocation always does my head in, they never get it right.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Afraid I'm with Jonno on this one. SK did try to bring a reasonable discussion point to this BBS but then he spoilt it by making a totally unnecessary jibe at jonno. He just couldn't help himself :-(( I guess a makem cannot change his stripes!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

But just as we try and encourage SK and others to rise above it, and he nearly makes it, an "abject" or "squirming" apology is required.

Jonno I know we have disagreements but the general contribution from Sunderland supporters is improving. To try and hammer the guy down for getting a personal comment badly wrong is daft. You didn't ask me to give you grovelling apologies when I misquoted you, you shouldn't really ask the same of someone just because he has a speech impediment.

Kev, you were wrong to pick on Jonno, he and Clarky have stood out as the people who have not been anti-Sunderland. Bad choice.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Jonno,i have looked through past threads but the one i was looking for is not there.Your quote was something like"its people like you that make me hate Sunderland" Maybe someone with better pc skills can retrieve the aforementioned vitriol but please ,please do NOT hold your breath for an apology.You recieved an apology from me regarding a toungue in cheek 'throw away comment'yet the way you have recieved it suggests that you are nothing but a *******. Put up or shut up?????? Ulterior motives behind this? If i upset you so much ,divent respond! Oh and try having the full board against you then see what that is like.No matter what i say ,anti -sunderland feelings to varying degrees dictate that my views will never be fully considered although i feel that sometimes i reach over 90% in the acceptance stakes.Sorry if anyone else feels insulted but i suppose thats the way it is.'never the twain shall meet'

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

To try and hammer the guy down for getting a personal comment badly wrong is daft.

So I'm to allow people to misquote and misrepresent me and get "personal comments badly wrong" without challenge? Well - roll up Mackems - you can call me whatever you like apparently and I'm wrong to say you're a liar.

My integrity is the thing I value most about myself and I will ALWAYS defend it. I was singled out for attack and ridicule here and I have completely turned the tables on my accuser. That is the second stupid mistake he has made about me in a week. He will NOT be back to confirm his accusation because as you know he could not have been further from the truth (something I care deeply about).

If my defence of my integrity is unwelcome here then so am I.

Thanks for the support Cliff.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Soops - 90% acceptance rate?? Hell man, that's more than most of us get :-( You're bound to get polarisation on any club's BBS. This is an NUFC board, but our past record has shown that we welcome lively debate from other (less enlightened!) fans - witness the almost cult-like acceptance (did I spell that right??) that LR gets on here. You've raised a good point wrt PPV - also something which is likely to get polarised opinions.

BTW - mine is bigger than yours ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Can I suggest that my new initiative of PPI (Pay Per Insult) will dramatically improve the quality of insults and slagging matches enjoyed by the BBS viewing public.

No longer will you have to trudge along to the same old web page, log in when the boss isn't looking and spend ages looking for a decent Mag vs makem argy. No, fair surfer, because with the launch of B-Sky- BS you will be able to view your favourite insulting postings anywhere and at any time.

Also, with our Interative Postings you can check out the various angles from which the contributors are slagging from. Imagine, inside the head of your favourite Mag poster or seeing what the makem arguing back really thinks! The possibilities are limited! (Ed - surely limitless?)

And with our special offline deal you can view the insults moments after they have been posted. Review old insults and comment on the OPTWAT statistics in our specially archived Slag-Bank.

Apply now and receive our special introductory offer - 1 hour of free slagging matches and a discount for the next 3 months! That's right, FREE SLAGGING MATCHES! That's not all, get a friend to sign up and have enjoy insults on the move with our WAP enabled slagging mobiles. You need never miss out on a decent jibe, dig or taunt again!

Special introductory offer £20.00 initial set up fee, and £10.00 PPI. Thereafter we will charge you what the hell we like, 'cos you will have already created the precedent.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

"its people like you that make me hate Sunderland"

LIAR. You can't find it because I never said it

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Jonno,the simple fact is that the posting is not now on the new answers list.What do you suggest i do? Copy all of your posts for future referance? Completely turned the tables?? What an arrogant man! Maybe in your own mind.Can you prove that you did NOT post what i say you did? Try Macbeth,see if he can dig it out.Completely turned the tables?I think that you are making yourself look stupid with these boasts and i suggest that the measly show of support shows that some of your comrades are not in agreement with you.Not against you,but not with you either,and i know that this will bother you as it appears that you thrive on being 'cyberloved!' As i am on late shift i am unable to respond to any further accusations of being in the wrong until about 12-30 am wednesday.Again apologies if anyone else feels misrepresented by this posting,this as far as i am concerned is about Jonno and myself.I have ALWAYS hated arrogance but hey thats just me!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

For the record, Jonno has consistently argued the point that there is little difference between those of us who support NUFC and those who support SAFC (and indeed, those who support nobody at all or in particular).

However, I also find that dragging discussions down to a very personal level is of no benefit to the rest on here. If you want to continue the "debate", why don't you do it via e-mail? Sorry Bobby if I have just suggested pulling the plug on your very worthwhile initiative but suggesting that one of the best spectacles be played behind closed doors. How much did yuo say? £20? Make it a tenner and I might reconsider ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

All the posts are still there SK. Just go to the bottom of the front page and they are all there sorted by category. You cannot ask a man to prove he did not say something. You claim I said it - you have to supply the evidence. If you do look you will probably find several (very pleasant and amusing) appeals from myself for you to moderate your abusive tone. I'm pleased you have now largely taken this on board.

You've got me all wrong SK. I'll be pleased when you can realise your mistake.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Kev, I do believe Jonno wouldn't have said that....as MacBeth pointed out, him and Clarky have been fairest to all your folk...

It really isn't worth this slagging match...

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I was accused in public - I will defend myself on public.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Spasmodically entertaining though these Geordie v Mackem debates can be (liar, liar, pants on fire)wouldn't it be best to have a separate thread where you lot can just rip the piss out of each other in peace, and leave the rest of us to get on with the footy bit, rather than hijacking every thread that doesn't start "my teams better than yours." You never know, you might even get to respect each other, if not actually kiss and make up. I knew a Mackem once, he was a chippy, did a really good job on my kitchen and bathroom. Thing is, I didn't realise he was a Mackem until he'd finished the work, and I have to admit it looked every bit as good after he owned up. He knew I was a Geordie all along (pictures of Big Al and Tino everywhere) but he still had his heart set on doing a good job. Now about that ppv. Still with SK, and still against it

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

getting a tad bit out of hand and slightly boring!!

Roll on the weekend when we can argue about which team is better and why we dislike the MANCS. All this in house bickering is merely a symptom of excitement and anticipation of the new season. Either that or we are all becoming a bunch of arses!!!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Ok, tenner a time. That's my last offer. PPI will succeed!

SK - with apologies, Jonno has a long history of saying the North East football fans are united by their small differences and greater commonalities. However, it's the differences that make it worthwhile (i.e. you follow some small Sunday league pub outfit, we follow a leading and masssively supported Premiership team).

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

All right Bobby. In light of your reduced offer, I have reconsidered it. And I still consider it a rip off. You're a money-grabbing little $hit who is trying to rip off the good Geordie nation. You're all the same, "you Johnny come latelies" you. Where is your filanthrowpey? Hah - don't know what O@m on about. F***in' typical. You're scum and you know you are. You come on here trying to liven up the debate, but you just can't resist the opportunity to rip us off. Well, I for one have had enough. That's it. Hoy you (yes you laddie) over there. Can you please give me back my dummy. It appears to have left my mouth and been propelled across the floor. A fiver????

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Jonno if you are looking for support from me - forget it - jeez man you should not have to ask anyone on here for that , it goes without saying. Kev IMHO that Jonno apart from a few journo`s hates nobody, the word hate is not in his dictionary , his undying support and unrequited love for his team , his area , his people is an example to us all , but may be mispresented to others or not understood.

BTW Jonno , you did not hate Dagleish did you ? or my argument is blown sky high , PPV out of the water!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

It's not a sides thing! I just think Jonno shouldn't have taken the comments so seriously and left the thread as it was, SK's attempt at serious debate....

I don't for a second believe that Jonno said he hates anyone...I know better than that....

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I think Jonno is the most wonderfulest person in the whole world and should be Pope. ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Papist bastard!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Yes, the players all stand around until the commercial is finished, then off goes the light and play resumes.

Or in the case of soccer it's "Get the teams out NOW we're going live!" Only to rush the players out and then ahve them standing around while the commentators babble while running footage shot during the warm ups...that took place BEFORE the broadcast started!

And they wonder why it's like pulling teeth to get them out sometimes? ;-))

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

As for other issues on this thread. Sk appears to be doing his usual 1 step forward and 10 steps backwards. Silly boy.

PPV....like the concept and really don't think it will affect crowds at the matches. It doesn't in the US anyhow. Don't like the ridiculous prices that are charged, nor the fact that they don't repeat the show at least once or twice for that kind of money...especially when the cable company screws up and doesn't turn your broadcast on in time. :-/

PPI...not to sure, but if it were cheaper. Like a pound or two, I might consider it. ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Nah this time i'd say it's 9 steps forward and 1 back....it's a pretty big one but heopfully he'll learn not to cross Jonno....at least not until he's certain he's right....

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

If it's backing you need Johno count me in, SK singled you out in capital letters. The very same capital letters which until recently could not be found on his posts, that must mean something, probably.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I've been resisting the urge to contribute to this thread since the original issue has long gone. SK, you singled out jonno with intentional malice as a forethought, bad move IMO. Of course Jonno didn't have to respond, but when integrity is questioned who wouldn't? I gotta back jonno on this one since he is/was only doing what everyone else would do. Keep with the good posts kev, leave the baggage at home;-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

To make myself clear - my argument with SK is NOT Magpies vs Mackems and anyone who thinks it is hasn't read what I've been saying. (That always disappoints as I do choose my words very carefully.) I don't want words put into my mouth that I have never said. THAT is what SK did. To accuse me of hatred for the Mackems when I have written more than anyone except possibly Clarky on the subject of getting rid of hatred is very galling. It's an outright LIBEL and I won't allow it to stand, unchallenged. The ball is still in SK's court. Unless he comes back with evidence to the contrary, or apologises and withdraws his libellous remark, then we can assume he is a charlatan. He has subsequently accused me of arrogance. Again - wide of the mark - it would be arrogance SK if I was wrong - the onus is on you to prove I am and you cannot do that.

(You can cut and paste this next bit SK. It will help you to understand my position which has been stated here before, and should lead to no more mistakes on your part.)

The people of Newcastle and Sunderland share the same region, the same cultural, economic and social history. They follow their football teams fanatically. Sharing the same region, the people have been subjected to the worst ravages of Thatcherism and are to some extent bouncing back although our best people are still often forced to move South to pursue their careers.

There is much more that unites us than divides us. The sight of Mackem fans trudging to SJP surrounded by police and looking like a convoy of POW's is an abhorrent sight to me. It is disgusting that we fans have allowed the situation to come to this. I say kick out the thugs who have brought us to this, not kick out at the Mackems.

To this end, I'd like to see, for future derbies, one or two pubs where Mags and Mackems who share my views could drink together before and after the game. Light hearted banter, the odd p1ss-take and zero abuse. We could invite the papers, national and local, to show just how advanced we people of the North are. :-) Of course, we'd probably need police protection from the barbarians outside (Mackems and Mags) who have a vested interest in the aggro continuing! I despise being herded like an animal at matches, searched for weapons, etc etc. All because of the few thugs with their hatred who we should chase out of our beautiful game.

The people of this sorely disadvantaged region should be looking outwards not fighting each other.

During the last 5 years I have lost everything I have. All that remains is my integrity and I will hold onto it and defend it to the end. My opinions might be (probably are!) rubbish, but I'm rarely far away on facts.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Kev, Jonno

I have the ability to see all postings made by Jonno (yawn !!) and I have looked back through them all in an attempt to find anything from him that would match the words, or the sentiment of the words, that Kev claims. As I expected there is none, I can fine lots of "we're all the same people ....I'll be your friend if you'll be mine" type missives but nothing abusive, not even on the spur of the moment.

Sorry Kev, Jonno was the wrong one to pick on, and you had so many to aim at too !!

Everyone, if any of you would like me to pull together a composite of all of Jonno's postings then sorry, I'm busy at the moment.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Many thanks Mac. Much appreciated. ALL my posts you say? Above and beyond the call of duty that surely....? :-)

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

you cannot imagine

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

I've changed my mind. Macbeth should be Pope and also get the Nobel Peace Prize!

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001

Jonno. I've been off line for a while and have taken the opportunity tonight to catch up on recent postings. I've got a lot of time for SK & MLs (and I'm not being patronising) and have seen a growth in the general discussions that have taken place on here. At times it's been childish and vulgar to put it mildly. There have also been times when it has been productive, informative and very funny. Like others, I would put a lot of this down to the lead taken by yourself and the much revered Clarky. I can understand your bitterness, and support what you've done and the way you have said it. I haven't always agreed with whats been said, but that doesn't just apply to you. I read the start of this thread and thought WE were getting somewhere, but...... Keep it going comrade.

-- Anonymous, August 14, 2001