OK, lets keep this civil. Lets not insult any country's "type". But what are the main differences between American and English shih tzu? If you have any insight into type in other countries, throw that in too. What do you think are the pros and cons of the various types? Do you think if it becomes easy to travel with dogs into England that we will see a more uniform type?

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Answers

Haven`t forgotten about this discussion.....I`ve been out all day. I`ll respond tomorrow...........it would have been nice if someone from this side of the Big Pond would take part too!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

A topic worthy of debate! (:o)

Shall we go through the standard point by point and see how they differ in wording, and then in practice?

GENERAL APPEARANCE:

BRITISH STANDARD - Sturdy, abundantly coated dog with distincly arrogan carriage and chrysanthemum-like face. I`ll include the following too, which comes at the end of our Breed Standard: SIZE - Height at withers not more than 26.7 cm (ten and a half inches), type and breed characteristics of the utmost importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone. Weight: 4.5 - 8.1 kg (10 - 18 lbs). Ideal weight: 4.5 - 7.3 kg (10 - 16 lbs). FAULTS:

AMERICAN STANDARD - The Shih Tzu is a sturdy, lively, alert Toy dog with long flowing double coat. Befitting his noble Chinese ancestry as a highly valued, prized companion and palace pet, the Shih Tzu is proud of bearing, has a distinctively arrogant carriage with head well up and tail curved over the back. Although there has always been considerable size variation, the Shih Tzu must be compact, solid, carrying good weight and substance.

Even though a Toy dog, the Shih Tzu must be subject to the same requirements of soundness and structure prescribed for all breeds, and any deviation from the ideal described in the standard should be penalized to the extent of the deviation. Structural faults common to all breeds are as undesirable in the Shih Tzu as in any other breed, regardless of whether or not such faults are specifically mentioned in the standard.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

A topic worthy of debate! (:o)

Shall we go through the standard point by point and see how they differ in wording, and then in practice?

GENERAL APPEARANCE:

BRITISH STANDARD - Sturdy, abundantly coated dog with distinctly arrogant carriage and chrysanthemum-like face. I`ll include the following too, which comes at the end of our Breed Standard: SIZE - Height at withers not more than 26.7 cm (ten and a half inches), type and breed characteristics of the utmost importance and on no account to be sacrificed to size alone. Weight: 4.5 - 8.1 kg (10 - 18 lbs). Ideal weight: 4.5 - 7.3 kg (10 - 16 lbs). FAULTS: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.

AMERICAN STANDARD - The Shih Tzu is a sturdy, lively, alert Toy dog with long flowing double coat. Befitting his noble Chinese ancestry as a highly valued, prized companion and palace pet, the Shih Tzu is proud of bearing, has a distinctively arrogant carriage with head well up and tail curved over the back. Although there has always been considerable size variation, the Shih Tzu must be compact, solid, carrying good weight and substance.

Even though a Toy dog, the Shih Tzu must be subject to the same requirements of soundness and structure prescribed for all breeds, and any deviation from the ideal described in the standard should be penalized to the extent of the deviation. Structural faults common to all breeds are as undesirable in the Shih Tzu as in any other breed, regardless of whether or not such faults are specifically mentioned in the standard.

Perhaps someone could let us have the corresponding sections from other countries` Breed Standards? (:o)

Ok - first reactions anyone? (I need more thinking time!) (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

So worthy.....I thought I`d post it twice. Beginning to think that this HRT is not having the desired effect! I know, I know - you can`t regenerate braincells! (;o)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

If the "American type" Shih Tzu starts showing in England I feel it would have a big impact on the English type. What we see in the ring here is not what is shown in England. Our grooming has changed the look from what is was originally and we have lost our heads and substance. Here you see a more refined (or what is called an elegant type) that is higher on leg and less body. With the poodle type top knot (that is what I call it) it makes the head look narrow (even if the dog has a good head)and the neck longer and the dog taller. Don't even get me on the subject of temperment and movement.

Some of the breeders are trying to get back to the correct (large) head and body with substance which is great. I fell in love with this breed back in the 60's because of their look and personality. Some things have changed for the good but some things have not.

I am very passionate about this breed and have strong feelings about what has happened in the states. Canada seems to still have the nice big heads and body with substance. I hope I did not offend anyone, but this is my opinon.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Well, from what I can tell, most other countries either follow the English type or the American type and these seem to be the two most definitive types within our breed. I think there are pros and cons to both types. These are just my opinions of course! I am a head freak and do think American shih tzu IN GENERAL have lost good head type, of course in any generalization there are outstanding individuals that go beyond this. I also agree with Shelia that there are too many that lack substance. I want to feel BODY underneath the coat. That to me doesnt necessarily mean a bigger dog. I have a nine lb bitch that I adore. She is definitely little, I mean barely nine lbs. But she has good substance. She has a good body. She's solid. I think a big thing that has hurt American shih tzu is the numbers game. By this I mean breeders/handlers who want to above all have X number of champions, X number of wins, finish X number from a litter, and so on. I hear alot complaining about the big pro handlers who'll finish a three legged blind dog, but the blame soley doesnt land on them. What about these breeders sending them these dogs to finish? Surely these breeders/owners KNOW this isnt a worthy dog. And then there are the breeders who sell EVERY puppy they breed, often to unsuspecting novices, as show quality. Then say a poor quality dog is sent to a big name handler and starts winning big, then you have the breeders who'll run out and breed to whatever the "hot" dog is at the moment and the problem continues. Now dont go thinking I'm going to let you Brits off the hook LOL! I think the problems I see within the English shih tzu are many are too big and too coarse. I like a nice 10-12 lb sturdy shih tzu. I also dont like the long and low look alot of the English shih tzu have. I guess we have a different definition of SLIGHTLY longer than tall. I think alot of the Canadian dogs are getting too leggy, I dont like a real leggy dog, but I dont like them looking like midgets either. I think maybe if getting dogs to and from England were easier, maybe we could find that happy medium. But honestly who knows? I'd like to see a happy medium in the grooming styles too. Obviously no one can deny here in the states that shih tzu are way over groomed, but I have to confess when I saw that shih tzu on TV on Crufts, I cringed at the coat. I will say last year or maybe it was later than that, we had a lovely English import bitch being shown here. I thought she was great. She came from the Harropines kennel.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Susan, I agree with the size. I also have a 9lb bitch that has body. I do not want to feel ribs. I want to feel meat that is hard as a rock. With the dogs living in pens to preserve the coat they have no muscle tone. It is to bad.

We are also loosing those big beautiful dark solid eyes that go with the big head.

It sure would be nice to find a nice happy medium. I personaly have never like anything excessive.

Sheila (Windsor)

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Damn! Did it again - forgot to put my other e mail address in so that my reply appears in sequence and not up at the top! Doh!

Back to the subject in hand.........well, later this morning, when I am fully awake. (:o)

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Yes, Shelia, I'm seeing alot of small almond shaped eyes set fairly close together. I've got a boy with according to one judge "perfect round shih tzu eyes". He seems to be reproducing them too which is nice. I just think the small almond eyes ruin the whole expression.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Do you know, I have given this question a great deal of thought - the more you think about it, the more complicated it becomes! Having been lucky enough to attend a few Nationals in the States, I have the benefit of seeing dogs from both sides of the Atlantic in the flesh, so to speak.

My initial reactions on my first visit to the National were that the dogs were much smaller and finer. That was quickly dispelled when I was given the opportunity to go over some of the dogs. In fact, there is quite a wide variation in size and substance.

Length of leg does seem to make the most difference to the overall look of the dogs, and I had to make an effort to ignore super-high topnot creations as I found they were quite damaging to the overall balanced picture of a lot of the dogs. Personally I do not like legs to be too short, and I particularly like them to be straight. It is possible to have a sufficiently broad chest AND straight legs. I have a particular aversion to Queen Ann fronts when `broad` turns into `barrel`!

I have seen more fronts that I don`t like in the UK than in the States, and I saw very few dogs who `rolled` a la Pekinese on the move in the US - but then there is also more of a tendancy to string dogs up and move them much faster in the States.

I would say that on the whole the UK dogs have good bone, but I have also been over plenty dogs in the States with good bone too.

There is plenty of American/Canadian influences showing through in the dogs here now. Much as I suspect UK imports to the States in years gone by have influenced the development of the Shih-Tzu over there, the same is happening here - to a degree. Some of the best examples of successful Anglo/American alliances seem to have been when a dog has been brought in, used in a breeding programme, then the resulting offspring bred to an all English line.

What I can`t seem to get my head around is the fact that our Breed Standards are pretty similar in the main (yours being slightly more detailed), and yet, on both sides of the Atlantic there is such a huge variation in size and type. Even within the variations in height and weight allowed in the Breed Standards, if you take the rest of the Breed Standard into consideration, and breed to achieve it, there is actually very little leaway as to what shape the dog would need to be to meet these requirements. So how have we ended up with such a wide and variable range in reality?

More ramblings later.....(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

ps. It would be really nice if someone, with a lot more knowledge and experience of breeding Shih-Tzu here in the UK than myself, would take up this discussion. I`m doing the best I can, but it is only my personal opinion, and I am not qualified to pass judgement on such matters! (:o|

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

Well Roz, I'm by far no "expert" either, but I do definitely have my opinions LOL! You are right, the standards are not that different. But I read somewhere where they took a few breed standards to an artist who was not a "dog person", the standards were complete except in every incidence the dogs breed name was omitted and the artist had to use the standard to draw what he thought the dog should look like based on the standard. None of the sketches looked anything like the breeds! Interesting, huh? I guess standards are useless without hands on experience and living examples. So I guess that shows how easily a breed being developed in different areas can come about differently. You are right about many handlers here stringing up the dogs. I've seen some poor shih tzu who were so strung up that I didnt even think their front feet ever touched the ground! I think thats horrible. And too many handlers think that faster movement is better movement so they RUN the dogs around the ring. I had a problem with this when my Louie was showing. Louie has good movement, but Louie liked to take his time about EVERYTHING. Louie doesnt hurry for anything except a treat LOL. So we had many handlers who'd run their dogs up on him. But the day he finished was great. He of course was moving at his own leisurely pace, but the handler of the dog in front of us was literally RUNNING around the ring. We won (a five pt major) and the judge said "THANK YOU for moving him at his natural pace!". That is what our standard says, they should move at a natural pace. The boy I'm showing now doesnt take his time and likes to really move out. And sure, I could run like a fool and he'd keep up nicely. But I think that just looks bad. I always figure that when a handler is running a dog around the ring, they are running it so no one has time to catch faults in the movement. And here in the US, probably more so than in England, there are differences in different regions of the country. For example if you have a very small shih tzu, it may be easier to get its CH in one area of the country versus another. And competition is harder in different regions. There are more pro handlers in certain areas than others which can make it tough. I havent had the opportunity to travel to England, as Roz has to come here. But obviously we all have pictures of dogs from other countries that we can plainly see the differences in type. And we are a bit spoiled here in the US where we not only get TV coverage of Westminster and in recent years other larger US shows, but we also get TV coverage of Crufts and the World dog show so we atleast can see some in motion.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

Speaking as a novice, The main differences i see are Heads, Height and pressentaion,the backcombed topnot is creeping in here everytime i go to a show it is more in evidence,[I ONLY WISH I KNEW HOW TO DO IT, i NEVER HAVE BEEN MUCH GOOD AT TOPNOTS} the American dogs seem to have more top not than head sometimes,they are groomed to perfection,you dont see any staining of faces there, but dont allways look as if they have been allowed to be a dog, if you saw mine chasing around the garden tugging on each others top knots and tails you would probably have a fit,they also seem to be higher on the legs which i also see here i dont like a dog to be so short legged as to be peke like but i dont expect my dog to be able to shelter underneath one either. Certain people here in England seem to have a nack for grooming and have started to present their dogs towards the American style and i must say they look beautifull, but I wonder if too much emphasis is put on presentation if the dog isnt sound underneath that lovely coat then what future is there for the breed.I also notice here that breeders are starting to handle for novice owner/exhibitors and i wonder if they are doing them any favours,

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

If a dog isn't sound then however well groomed or how much coat he/she has no judge worth their salt should put it up. No amount of coat and good grooming will either cover up or disguise an unsound dog, as soon as they move it will become apparent. I think that competitors have become more proficient with their grooming over the past 10 years - showing dogs has become less of a hobby and more of a science!

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Isnt funny how we see things differently? I can tell more about structure on American shih tzu than on English shih tzu generally. Generally American dogs are blow dried straight and often have their coats ironned. But alot of the English dogs I've seen on the move have wavey coats that just dont lie flat good and I cant make out the body. I mean, when it moves, I can tell whether or not it moves well, but you know what I mean. As far as dogs being dogs, mine are. Yes, they have restrictions due to coat, like I dont allow them on carpet. Thats fine, I ripped up the carpet in my home and now have ceramic tile floors. But they romp and play and do doggy things.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I do have to comment on the breeders handling for novice owners. I think it can be a good or bad thing. Let me say, I'm not very objective on this as my first was handled by his breeders. I found the way we did it invaluable! My dog lived with me. I kept him in coat. Occasionally, when I couldnt make it, his breeders took him to shows and showed him. But alot of the times I traveled with them and played handlers assistant and they showed my dog. I was right there watching and learning. I learned SO MUCH this way. It was like having a tutor with you all through the show. I watched them do show topknots, I listened to their opinions about the other exhibits and they would point out that a certain dog had a bad rear or another dog had a really nice front, etc. It was a GREAT experience! However I do think when a novice buys a show prospect and then sends it back to the breeder or another pro handler for that matter and dont see it again until its finished, they dont get the learning experience. A friend of mine said she was in a similar situation when she started. She sent her puppy off to a handler and kept being told it was a great dog, and got phone calls of all his wins, but never knew what about her dog was so nice and what he had that was making him win these wins.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

a lot of judges we see at open shows in particular,are not allways as familiar with the breed as perhaps we would like, particullarly those people judging the breed early in their judging career,and clever grooming can disguise a particular fault [or so im told,] and if they see a dog that is beautifully presented, along side a dog that is not put down quite so well then im sure the temptation must be to give the first prize to the dog that is well presented,for example you can alter the look of a dog by the way you do his top knot,if you take up too much nose hair it gives a totally different expression and if we look at novices like myself they can often be taken in by clever grooming.and so they start with a mediocre dog themselves, because no one is going to sell them their best dog, not to a novice,and they start their breeding programme, befor long you have a number of mediocre dogs, with various faults. so perhaps unsound was the wrong expression to use, but do you see where im comming from Pat

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I think it takes a very experienced judge, either side of the Atlantic, to be aware of all the little tricks of the trade. As Gloria said, `any judge worth their salt would be able to pick up bad movement`. But to be fair, not all judges are worth their salt. Some are `learners` just beginning their judging careers, and it takes time to gain experience and confidence.

From the point of view of grooming....well, I envy the high standard of presentation in the States (though not the over the top topknots). I am beginning to think that there is actually a difference in coat texture between American and English breeding. I used to think that it was simply a question of the amount of conditioning the American coat gets, but I`m not so sure now. Do you think that American dogs have been systematically bred for finer straighter coats? They certainly look more glamourous that way (and personally I don`t have a problem with that). The English coat seems to have more natural spring in it.(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I do agree that with the bigger (or at least thats the way it looks) coat which is often not as straight as the American counterpart the English coats can appear to "kick out" as the dog moves towards you,which can give a wrong impression of the front movement. But when such a dog is on the table you can feel the legs and how much bend there is. This seems to be more apparent when you watch a puppy who's coat is at a length which seems to enhance the coat swing. Could the American dogs have been originally crossed into Apso lines more? This would give a straighter coat. Whilst I do not like the overdone American top knot, there is a lot to learn about presentation from seeing these dogs shown. I would not like to see our dogs turned into "manicured, must'nt play to preserve the coat" breed. Shih Tzu at their best are crazy, happy clowns, this should never be changed just to have a winning dog. I also think that when selling a puppy for show, although with the best will in the world no-one can predict it's future, you should only sell for show a dog that you yourself would be happy to take in the ring, it does no kennel any good for dogs who are pet quality to be shown by anyone. (I have to say I really hate the "pet quality, show quality" thing - they are all sweet little dogs and deserve the best kind of life, it is one of the sad reflections on the hobby that we have to be so choosy). As to open show judges, if more show committees made use of the clubs judging lists and stopped selecting non-breed judges then they might not have lost so many entries. A few years ago at an open show, we were approached by a lady who said she was judging the breed the following week and could she look at a companions dogs, apparently to get an idea of what to look for, she had no idea whether these dogs were good or otherwise, I think that says it all.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I would still have to say Pat that however glamorous and well groomed a dog might look if when a judge examines the exhibit it doesn't match up to what is required but a less well put down dog does, then that dog has to stand before the well groomed but not correct dog. When you judge you are judging to the breed standard and that is what you have to keep in the forefront of your mind. This is why you can't judge from the ringside, I know we all do it, but you need to go over the dogs to make a good assesment.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Some very valid points on this thread about `judging` - enough I think to warrant a thread all of its own.(:o)

On the `differences` theme, there is one thing which the Americans do which I can never understand. Why do so many push the tail flat to the back, both when stacking their dogs, and particularly when photographing them? It completely destroys the `balance` of the dog. I wish more people in the UK had the opportunity to see these same dogs when they are `off duty` so to speak. Scooting up and down the hotel corridors, with their hair down, tails wagging and skirts flying - they don`t look so very different then!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Talking of the different texture of the coats in america and here in England i dont think it is just applied to dogs and may well have something to do with the weather over here. My Daughter sings Barbershop, and has been to America on a number of occassions to represent the U.K. and they have American judges who come over here every year to judge the competitions, and coach the winners, and something they allways comment on is that the english girls need to grow 'big hair' they think that it may have something to do with the damp weather over here because their own hair is never as big when in England so:- further food for thought. Pat

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

I think alot of the difference in the look of the coat is the coat care here versus elsewhere. Over here any of the coated breeds that are being shown are not allowed to romp and play. They spend their show life in a pen and are wrapped, oiled and whatever else they do to save the coat. The only time the dog is on the ground is when it is in the show ring. (really sad way to live)

Then you add the conditioners and ironing it changes the look of the coat. You can do all this and change the look of a cotton coat to look silkier. Unless a judge is familer with the shih tzu coats they will never know the difference.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001

Hmm? I`d forgotten about the `ironing` thing. When I was a young trendy thing, many moons ago, in order to combat the `home perm` my Mum had insisted on giving me, I used to iron my hair using a laundry iron and brown paper! Doesn`t bare thinking about now - it`s a wonder I didn`t scar myself for life!(:o)

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Well, I cant say its the "living in a cage" thing either that makes the difference as mine romp and play and go outside and all those things and their coat doesnt look "English". I think our coats look alot more fragile than they are for the most part. I personally dont tolerate an unsturdy coat. I had a lovely boy last year that I placed as a pet as his hair was fragile and I didnt want that AT ALL in my breedings. Sure for those who do pen their dogs 24/7 can keep a fragile coat, but I am hard enough on my dogs coats as is, I couldnt deal with that. I dont use oil or wraps either. Their topknots and mustaches are banded, but thats it. I wouldnt have a dog if it couldnt be my pet too. I think it ruins their personality if they dont have lots of human interaction and play time. As for the pressing the tail down flat on the back. I hate that too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldnt say that all of us do that, but I would guess about half over here do. Their tail set should be like a teacup handle. Sadly though, I've seen more than a few that the handlers hand had no play in it, the dogs tails WERE flat on the back, I'm seeing that more this year and last than in the couple of years before that.

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

What do you mean when you say a fragil or unsturdy coat? What type of coat is that?

As for holding the tail down in pictures, etc. Alot of the dogs have tails that have a tight curl and lay flat on the topline. Almost like a pug but not so tight.

Sheila (Windsor)

-- Anonymous, August 24, 2001

Fragile and Unsturdy. Let me try and explain what I mean, I am generally not good at describing things in words. I mean the coats, sometimes cottony, that break easily, that are thin, that have a hard time growing any length as it keeps breaking. As I said, my dogs, show dogs or not, are all pets. I cant live with a dog that has to be penned 24/7 in order to have a decent coat!

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001

I find that the coat texture is heriditary. If the bloodline has cotton coats you will have cotton coats. If it has a nice silkie coat you will have those. The cotton coats are to much work. If a dog has the correct silkie double coat it is almost indistructable.

-- Anonymous, August 27, 2001