Hello there, My wife recently purchased a Leica II from Canada. Not sure if a copy or a fake. All the research I can find on the Luftwaffe versions are Leica IIIc models and robots. This one has the Fl.No38079 and a serial number of No22015. It has the Luftwaffe-Eigentum directly under the viewfinder on the back in gold engraved letters. On top there is the Leica, with D.R.P beneath it. Under that is Ernst Leitz Wetzlar and below that is the 38079 stamp. In the upper left by the LEica is a Nazi Eagle standing on a circle with a swastika in it. Right below that is an uppercase 'M'. Camera is all black with gold on the trim and gold lettering. Lady she bought it from didnt know and thought it may have been a special order model. Any ideas? Thanks!

-- Matt Sanford (sanfordm@bellsouth.net), August 10, 2001

Answers

one of these days someone is going to find a real one of these cameras and not the Russian made copiies. Here are some really good photos of a real one on ebay now that might help you decide. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1262908126

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 11, 2001.

Here is a place that sells just about every Leica fake known to man, and they have photos of most of the copies.

http://www.cameramate.com/lgal.htm

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 11, 2001.

Uh, you feel comfortable buying this Nazi memorabilia?

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), August 11, 2001.

Now there's an interesting point, Mani. I can understand where many people collect almost any kind of Leica thread - screw mounts, pre- war, special editions, gold plated, and on and on. But I've never understood the fascination with Nazi military models. Makes me shudder, though some folks have put huge money into these. I wonder how Leica itself feels about this constant reminder of an era 60 years ago. (I'm doing my best to suppress temptations of political haranguing on this site).

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

On the camera side, I really doubt that it is a real Nazi leica. They are pretty hard to find.

On the moral side, I doubt that I'd ever want to buy a piece of such an evil death machine. I can't imagine soiling my photography with something that holds so much pain and sorrow for millions and millions of people. But that's just my opinion. And if I found one cheap at a garage sale, would I buy it and sell it for a profit, or would I be true enough to my opinions to destroy it? Who can say.

And after all, there are people who collect slave shackles from that sad chapter of America's history. I guess it's a matter of opinion. The nazi artifacts aren't hurting anyone with their existance. So maybe they don't matter. Or do they?

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), August 11, 2001.

The internet certainly seems to bring out the carping moralist in us all.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 11, 2001.

I have a lovely black paint LHSA M6 TTL with matching black paint Rapidwinder from Tom A. This camera is certainly as smooth as my M2. However if the LHSA dissolves congress and invades Poland I would probably sell it (for a profit of course).

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), August 11, 2001.

Does the camera look anything like this? If it does, there're plenty more from this site: http://www.russiansouv enirs.com/luft.htm.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), August 11, 2001.

And here's an example of the real thing. The fake stuff are usually so flashy with their eagles and swastikas that you can spot them from a mile away, like this one here: http://www.cameraquest. com/fakerusk.htm. The genuine ones are usually more subtle in their military markings, but there can be exceptions, like this one here (scroll to the bottom of the page): http://www.cameraquest.co m/rusky2.htm.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), August 11, 2001.

Carping? It did sound fishy to me...

Permission to groan granted, Rob :-)

My question is literal, would you actually feel comfortable buying a genuine wartime Leica, with a Swastika? How about collecting fake Russian WWII Leicas as a specialty? If you are into buying German wartime Leicas, why exactly?

One does not have to fanatically hunt down every whiff of morally questionable motivation, but WWII German military Leicas in particular, are, or should (still) be, something that give rise to thought, if not pause, methinks...

Is it still to soon to be an objective collector of this stuff? Or is it actually impossible to be objective? Or is it that most people who are motivated by fascination for German WWII military stuff, really still awed/moved by the might of the Third Reich etc. etc.

So what does this have to do with photography? Nothing. And it has nothing at all to do with post and pre war Leica enthusiasm.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), August 11, 2001.

Fishy is good Mani ;). I was a bit harsh.

However, the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe was not officially affiliated with the NSDAP, even if they naturally had to wear party (national) insignia such as the swastika. I don't see a genuine moral dilemma here. And I can see that if you're interested in collecting leica stuff, then Hitler's personal Leica, for instance, would be a fascinating item to have.

I think it's a bit of a leap from that to having a collection of exclusively Nazi paraphernalia.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 11, 2001.

I'm afraid I just have to pose this question: to all who are concerned about the 'Nazi' Leicas - how many are also the same people who bemoan the fact that some Leica product is now made in Japan, and so is 'inferior'?

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

Huh? I don't understand your point, Bob. I'm not worried about either the Leica product made in Germany or Japan. They could be made in Outer Slobonia for all I care. Swastikas and Nazi reminiscence make me shudder. The fascination with such escapes me.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

"However, the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe was not officially affiliated with the NSDAP, even if they naturally had to wear party (national) insignia such as the swastika."

This made me think for a minute. Because, yeah technically it was true. But then again the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe were the ones killing a lot of people. Hitler became the leader "Der Fúhrer" of all Germany in 1933. In 1935 he declared the creation of a national german military (breaking the treaty of XXX), and shortly thereafter began his anti-Semitism campaign. Then in 1936 he invaded the Rhineland. Starting what we all know would become "WWII".

So to say that the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe had nothing to do with the Nazis isn't exactly true. Since Hitler and his political party were the ones who decided to militarize Germany again with an eye towards regional (global?) domination. And the Leicas that made for the Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe were in use from the beginning of Hitler's reign of terror.

Again, this is just my opinion. And really, there may be nothing wrong with collecting pieces of history. Even if they are part of a particularly ugly history. I just call it how I see it. But I, myself, could never be proud of owning a camera with such a heritage.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), August 11, 2001.

Versailles. The treaty of Versailles. Germany was banned from having an air force as part of it. I meant to replace the "XXX" with it, but I somehow forgot.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), August 11, 2001.

I think what Bob was saying is that there is still a subtle "German superiority" thinking in Leica circles-the same mentality that Hitler whipped into his evil empire. If the exact same lens was made in Canada and Germany, guess which one is usually more valuable to Leica owners. How about a Japanese R zoom compared to a German one?

To me, pretending that 1940's Germany didn't happen by destroying any reminders of it is probably as bad of an idea as obsessively collecting all things Nazi. History is history, and hopefully mankind can learn from its mistakes. The current state of the world hasn't convinced me this is happening, unfortunately.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 11, 2001.

My point exactly - thank you Andrew. I personally have no interest in the Leicas from Nazi Germany - but denigrating their existance becasue of when they were made seems like hiding our heads in the sand about a part of history that is no worse than...say the Crusades (and please...both were periods of history of which we should be ashamed). Yet if any of ran across a Crusades era sword (no matter how many victims it claimed), we'd probably consider it to be a great find. Maybe as with the Crusades we need a couple of centuries distance before we can approach it as what it is...history. As Andrew points out there is still subtle racism (though in this instance that is too harsh a word, and excuse me Andrew if you want no part of my wording, I would understand). I recently purchased a 35-70 F3.5 German made R lens, which normally goes for 3 times the price of the Japanese made version, though everyone I've spoken to says their is no optical difference ( got a deal, didn't pay near the going price). Why the price difference? And all too often I see on this site, as well as others, statements like 'Jap crap', and so on. Now before you hang me, I'm not accussing anyone of racism, but considering how easy it is to fall into the German is better (or Canadian, or Brit, etc), the Nazi memoribilia has a place in history, even if to remind us what can happen to people if prideful thinking gets out of control. END OF DIATRIBE!!

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

I hope we're not confusing the superiority of Leica the product, with the mythical geneological superiority that led to the rise of the Third Reich. That Leica produces a superior product has nothing to do with swastikas. That Germany has an historical tradition of engineering excellence is coincidental. That German made lenses are more valuable to collectors relates mainly to the fact that Germany is the home land to the inventor of the Leica and the corporation itself. These values are *not* based in the same mentality that Hitler espoused, which was racially motivated.

Made in Germany and Made in Japan are not relevant to products that bear a swastika. An Apple computer or a Ford Explorer with a swastika on it would make me shudder as well.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

Ken, this is the last thing I'll say on this topic, because it is so fraught with emotion. As I said, I'm not accusing anyone of racism. I'm just disturbed by the sense that Matt (and other collectors) was being chastised for collecting these cameras. I doubt he champions Hitlers cause anymore than the rest of us...but my anology to the Crusades sword holds. These are historical items, and to deny the existance of them because they were 'bad' leads us down to that old road whereby we doom ourselves to repeat the past. The Nazi regime was horrific, but to deny their existance and pretend it didn't exist (which is what has happened to a degree), just allows future generations to repeat the errors because we've hidden that from which they can learn.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

The crusade sword is a very good example. As would be a gun used in the massacre of Native Americans at Wounded Knee. And as you mentioned, I think time helps put it all in perspective. Saying "would I destroy it?" if I found a nazi leica was too harsh of a statement. History is very important, and swords, guns, and cameras help us know and remember the past. Both good and bad. Absolutely I would be interested in seeing all of them in a museum.

But for me, I would never own a Nazi Leica. There is just too much bad history behind such a thing for me to want it around. Especially involved with something as important to me a photography. For that matter I wouldn't own a crusade sword or a "Indian wars" gun. But if others are more comfortable with it, more power to them I guess. It is a pretty big step from Leica collector to get to Nazi fetishist.

And to me, none of this reflects much on the Leica company of today. Leica probably made military cameras for one of two reasons: 1. It was a sweet government contract, and good for the bottom line. (we all fly in Boeing jets, how many people has that company helped kill?). Or 2. they were essentially forced to by a very strong government. There may have been some horrible Nazi type people running Leica at one time, and I suppose there could still be. But I really doubt it. That absolutely wouldn't be good for the bottom line in this day and age.

Germany/Japan/Canada? I've never cared. The photos all look good to me.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), August 11, 2001.

As I just mentioned in a reply to someone, sorry to create such a fuss. The camera was a gift from my wife. She didnt know. She bought it while visiting a friend in Canada. She only told me about the LEica part. I am not interested in nazi stuff at all. And really want to price it correctly if it indeed is authentic, so I can sell it. The WW2 era was indeed bad and had its share of evil. As did Ghenghis Khan, the Romans, and hundreds of other governments during the human history. this one is just the most recent and hence we still feel it. As I told another, Stalin killed more of his own countrymen during that war than did Hitler kill of all the Allies. His was just much more inhumane than Stalin simply shooting them.

Sorry to create such a fuss over a piece of history.

-- Matthew (sanfordm@bellsouth.net), August 11, 2001.

Not at all Matt, I'm the one who started the fuss :-) But I think the whole of this thread is useful and pertinent to a Leica forum. It touches on a topic that is pretty central to Leica collecting, though not Leica use.

Ken Shipman nails the issue on the head when he says "I hope we're not confusing the superiority of Leica the product, with the mythical geneological superiority that led to the rise of the Third Reich. "

You do not confuse the two-the thrust of my indirect question-and nobody else in thread does, as is made amply clear by the straighforwardness and tone of the replies.

But some people do confuse the two and the existence of military WWII Leicas just excites that sensibility.

IMHO, I steer clear, like Ken. And I don't quite agree with the parallel of the crusades. It is still too soon for time to have healed this particular wound-there are a lot of older generation folk around who lived through (and sometimes suffered) all that and for me that means it is not yet just old history.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), August 11, 2001.

Do cameras kill people? Are they evil? I don't think so. If Hitler had concentrated on producing Leicas and VWs and building Autobahns instead of invading Poland and launching WWII the world would have been a far better place. Even so, I agree the symbolism of the memorabilia is disturbing. I would personally prefer a camera without that inscription. It is interesting to note that the Allies themselves had no qualms about usinig Leicas themselves during the war.

-- David Killick (Dalex@inet.net.nz), August 11, 2001.

Matthew, I think you've begun one of the most interesting threads we have in the forum. I highly appreciate everyone's comments here, and And I think this thread is entirely appropriate for this forum.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), August 11, 2001.

Bob, I am not chastising Matt. I said I don't understand the fascination with this particular emblem. It escapes me.

I don't deny the existance of these cameras or wish to destroy them. I just don't want one in my collection, or anywhere on my property.

I don't deny the existance of the Nazi regime or pretend it didn't exist. I abhor its existance.

Lastly, I don't want anyone to forget what happened or what that swastika stood for. I don't need one sitting on my shelf to remind me of that.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

A better example than a crusade sword is actually Japanese swords that American servicemen confiscated from Japanese soldiers as a sign of their defeat. Those swords were used to behead many Australian, American and British POW's inc woman in South East Asia. They seem very higly prized by American collectors when they were instruments of torture. Cameras just take pictures! Remember buying a secondand camera doesnt fund the Nazi Party. Besides all the guy asked was if it was genuine or not.

-- Joel Matherson (joel_2000@hotmail.com), August 12, 2001.

Those swords are equally hideous. Regardless of the innocence of the original question, the topic was raised. That's the nature of discussion forums.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

O.K., I would like to look at this from a diffrent angle. How about if the Leica in question was previously owned by a veteran who "liberated" it? At what point does it go from being a "bad" object to a "good" object? Is a Leica used by the RAF a "bad" or "good" thing? I don't know. I think everyone needs to make their own peace and collect what they feel comfortable with.

Eric Platt St. Paul, MN

-- Eric Platt (ericplatt@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Eric has a good point. We sit debating the value of a Nazi era item, feeling it came from a horrendous background. But how about someone who comes up with a part from a Lancaster or B-17 shot down during one of the firestorm raids over Dresden. I'm sure the average citizen of that city would think this would be a terrible thing...to venerate such an object of wanton destruction and killing. Again...Hitler was an evil man and all that...but it depends on whose side the history is being told.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), August 12, 2001.

Aaaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhh! What's going out there?

An otherwise identical RAF Leica has nowhere the value of the Nazi equivalent. Why is that so? Is it the value of the swastika? Why is that so? And I find that repugnant because of what the swastika represents.

Now if some of you don't understand the innate difference between the symbolism of the crown and the swastika, then we truely are in trouble already.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 12, 2001.

Its not the intrinsic morality of the object itself-which is largely a product of its individual history, if that history known to buyer and seller.

Its the symbolism of wartime Leicas and what people make of it.

The fact that the Luftwaffe Eigentums have both swastikas and eagles engraved is what excites some people.

To repeat what Ken Shipman stated ""I hope we're not confusing the superiority of Leica the product, with the mythical geneological superiority that led to the rise of the Third Reich. "

But some people, either secretly or overtly do confuse the two. For them, presumbly, a Leica with a Swastika is a sort of double bonanza.

Japanese swords, or those from the crusades are not as overtly linkable with the discredited philosophies that underlay the societies that used them in war.

A Leica symbolizes a lot of things, even in the modern day M6 context- precision, effectiveness, efficiency. So does a Mercedes. So did the Wermacht and Luftwaffe. So far, so good. But so did the Waffen SS and Gestapo and Nazi ideology. German superiority, mechanical and technological excellence, Aryanism were all intertwined in Nazi ideology. A Leica with a swastika and eagle engraved on it, even if an innocuous object in terms of its actual history, is nevertheless is a much more directly powerful symbol of the evil Nazi philosophy than any bushido sword. Hey, I love and use 'em every day. I have two M Leicas, in fact. But a Luftwaffe Eigentum, even if likely used by some humdrum staff or aerial survey sargeant interested only in photography and caught up in the war, is a strong symbol. And some misguided and/or nasty people trade it or desire to own it for that symbolic value still. And many of the wartime victims still live. So I, for one, steer clear.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@Pacific.net.sg), August 12, 2001.

Just got back from being out of town, and was curious how this particualar thread finally wound itself down. One thing I have noticed about most people in general is that we have a great desire to not only express our opinion on things we feel strongly about, but also to try and convince others our way of seeing them is the only and right way. If someone else appreciates such items as a rare piece of Leica history, that's their business no matter if I have a personal ethical problem with it. Its not a black and white thing to me at least (no pun intended). If I feel I don't want these symbols around, I don't have to buy an old military Leica (or a fake copy) or other objects from that era. I don't remember anyone asking here if any of us wanted to buy one of the Nazi cameras in this thread, however. Interesting subject, and I just noticed another posting about these military cameras just landed here 6 questions above this one.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 13, 2001.

Apathy and laissez-faire are understandable where the merits of a UV filter are concerned. Regarding the badges of Nazism, very sad.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

Andrew, this is veering well off-topic, but do you think that trying to convince others of a moral position you strongly feel is right is a symptom of intolerance?

You say (my italics) "One thing I have noticed about most people in general is that we have a great desire to not only express our opinion on things we feel strongly about, but also to try and convince others our way of seeing them is the only and right way.

What if you don't feel it is the only way, but it is the right way? Should I keep mum? Why? To relieve the other person of the nuisance of human discourse? Or to possibly avoid the dismaying pain of being convinced by someone else, rather than coming to conclusion by one's own self?

Sorry to have put it this bluntly-don't know how else I can put it- advocacy of a point of view is not bad in and of itself, it is bad only when coupled with intolerance and pressure i.e. prosleytization. Seems like we hardly notice the difference anymore...

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@Pacific.net.sg), August 13, 2001.

In Leicaland itself, it's fashionable among young people to be "right" (politically), and in some areas you will be insulted within three hours after arrival and attacked in intention to kill you within three days unless you're white, speak German flawlessly, and agree that all non-whites are ****. While owning symbols of the NSDAP and related organisations, denying the Holocaust, and similar actions are outlawed, few people care about it. In a sense, the swastika is a symbol of a current discourse that includes the approval of dictatorship, the denial of human rights, and the justification of mass murder. How do you feel now about Luftwaffeneigentum Leicas, whether fake or real?

BTW, the Wehrmacht participated in the crimes usually ascribed to the SS; e.g., the first mass murders in occupied areas were committed by the Wehrmacht. Germans still think the Wehrmacht was a honorable organisation, with just a few pitiful, criminal individuals. Well, they praise Hitler for the autobahns as well.

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), August 13, 2001.

Oliver, you may be right. I know that in the Crimea the Wehrmacht was an active participant in such crimes, maybe also elsewhere.

My feeling about this thread is that it's so banal. The Nazis are such an easy target and I often feel there is some unconscious motivation for this kind of moralising. Some kind of bad faith, bad conscience.

Another thread about green Leicas mentioned the existence of the KS- 17 (I think) US military issue model, manufactured in 1968. Well, we know what the US military were up to in the '60s, don't we. Around 2 million civilians dead for absolutely no discernible reason whatever.

Personally, I think the internet is such a easy place to spout off about big subjects and create a righteous persona. It's crowded with pundits and saints. I don't buy it myself.

No doubt the shit will now hit the fan.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 13, 2001.

Rob, you are absolutely right.

It has become banal-myself partly to blame!

I'm not sure about whether it is good or bad that the internet allows people to create righteous personas. As for the automatic assumption of morality-means-something to hide...That is probably the oldest, most banal construct of the modern era, thanks to Sigmund Freud.

Funny thing is, once you get into that banal pit, you can't help digging deeper, as I seem to be right now :-)

Getting this back on track, why can't those clever Russian fakers produce some nice Leica script engraved M6s? Or inexpensive black paint versions? I might actually be moved to buy one.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@Pacific.net.sg), August 13, 2001.

My comments weren't talking about just this thread specifically. Yes, I do think there's a big difference between expressing an opinion, which I am definately in favor of 100%, and implying that anyone who doesn't believe the same way as you is either ignorant, apathetic, or a bad person. That's my definition of intolerance, what is yours? Again, no one is being asked to accept that Nazi mentality was a great thing here, my point is that some people are able to seperate the historical stuff from a mere physical object and don't have the same take on it as you do, and I feel they have a right to do that.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), August 13, 2001.

In the context of this thread, some might regard separating the historical stuff from the physical object as an ability. Others might regard it as an inability to make the connection.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), August 13, 2001.

Mani, if they produce a cheap M6 copy that works I'll buy it, no problem.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 13, 2001.

Life is simple. Hitler was a curse on humanity. Leica's are not. If certain Leica's trouble you, perhaps you should send them to me for safe keeping.

-- Jim Newman (jcnewman@cheqnet.net), January 21, 2002.

This board initially was very helpful in obtaining information I was looking for, but has now become a page of politics. How in the hell did a forum for a russian Leica copy turn into a political anit-nazi forum. For those who wrote in for the first four or five replies, my hats off to you. You stuck to the subject and I thank you. As for the rest of you, I wasn't interested in really buying a nazi replica, but now I think I will just to spite you that turned this forum into a political debate. All of that over a little engraving. My God!!

-- (lapua_sniper@yahoo.com), November 04, 2002.