I have an opportunity to buy my Dads' old farm back. He sold it many years ago and it has been out of the family since then. We had a realtor come out today to give us an estimated value of our place but decided the amount of $ they get paid for to sell it is too much to give away. Have any of you guys ever sold your home yourself? How hard is it? I heard there is a "packet" of important papers I could buy at Office Max for $10 or so. Could I get those papers and then pay my attorney a small fee to handle all the final details and make sure it was done right? The $ I would save could easily put up a building for hay. In this case, I need every cent!! Thanks!!!!

-- Pat (mikulptrc@aol.com), August 10, 2001

Answers

I sold our home in the U.P. of Michigan a couple of years ago. It was a snap. I bought a packet of papers at Office depot or Office max and used that for a guideline. I did hire a lawyer to look over the contracts. It was very reasonable and the whole thing went smoothly. We saved a ton of money and I'd do it again in a heart beat. Jean

-- jean (dandrea@duo-county.com), August 10, 2001.

Pat, I was told at our county court house that a person could file all the necessary papers themselves and our lawyer was charging $100.00 to do the filing. You can do it for nothing. I looked at her and said,"You mean to tell me he is getting paid $100.00 to walk across the street to hand you my papers?" Yeah, she said. You should check this out for yourself in your area. Cindy

-- Cindy Herbek (dh40203@navix.net), August 10, 2001.

I've sold houses, and also bare lots. Be careful, as the main purpose I see for realtors is as a buffer against weird comebacks. There are too many things to think about to even list here. I think you're wise to consult a lawyer, if you're not sure about all the ins and outs.

Another possibility is to talk to the director of a Title Company.

Another is to see if Nolo has a book about this. They are great! Nolo.com, I think.

One other option that works here is to do a "non exclusive" listing. This basically gives you the right to negotiate a deal with your realtor, which is different than the standard deal required by multiple listing service.

For instance, I did this with a lot one time. I was checking up on some folks who I thought were trespassing. Turned out they were looking for land, and there was some for sale in my area. But their client fell in love with this lot I was getting ready to build on. The realtor asked if she could get me to list the property. I said, "tell you what. I'll give you $1000 to handle the whole thing if these folks end up buying." She said, "I have to charge you 10%", which would have been almost $4000. I told her she could take it or leave it, since she hadn't had to do anything so far; and she hadn't earned any $4000.I also said I'd just call her customers, if she didn't want to play ball, since I, nor they, had any obligation to use her services at all.

Her broker, after much moaning and groaning, decided $1000 was better than $0

Sorry for all the rambling. I guess my point is that you could work with a realtor, have them help you do all the paper work and such, and find your own buyer.

Good luck, and be very careful. not all realtors, nor all sharks, are honest.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), August 10, 2001.

The regulations associated with the sale of property are increasing at an exponential rate. There are many new ones here in Washington State that the layman would be hard pressed to learn about. It can be done without paying a realtor a huge commission, however, you would be well advised to hire a professional of some sort to make sure you are not violating some obscure real estate law in the transaction that could open you up to law suit later down the road. There are things like giving notice of agricultural activity if the property is within a certain distance of agriculturally zoned land. Most people don't know where to begin to find out if they are required to give such notice. Probably the best place to go for assistance is a title insurance company and their escrow department. They offer many customer services for free, but there are other services that you will have to pay for.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 10, 2001.

I've sold (and bought) many times without a Realtor. No big deal IF you have a good real estate attorney look over everything for you. If you don't know any, call a couple Realtors and ask them. ;o) Then get estimates from the attornies as to what they'll charge. Find out how much of that is for handling the closing and compare that fee to what the title insurance company will charge you. It may not matter as some lenders require the transaction be closed by their people, but, if not, it's another area where you can compare and save. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), August 10, 2001.

Most folks who sell thier own homes usually end up reducing the price by 7-10% to keep from "giving away" 6% to a broker. The more that they reduce the price to save the commission, the easier that they will tell you it was to get the job done.

Then they (the sellers who saved the commission) don't feel at all bad about coughing up 2-4% for a lawyer to finish up the loose ends.

Real estate commission is not a give away, and generally the only way to save it is to give it away to someone else; usually the buyer. Often the happy seller who saved the commission by giving it to the buyer will also be happy to pay the closing costs.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), August 10, 2001.

We actually RAISED the price to sell the home ourselves, but then it WAS in a prime location. I arranged for a lawyer to draw up the initial contract (one fee and I could xerox as many copies as I wanted/needed) and she also handled the title paperwork. All together it was less than $200. Well worth the piece of mind. No outrageous filing fees (under $10--the actual fee). But be prepared to show the house often and answer lots of 'sort of' interested calls. If you have the time then it can work. It took less than 4 months for us, but the location was the key.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), August 10, 2001.

See if there are any "realtor" education classes in your area. Sometimes you can get a realtor's liscense (depending on your local regs) with very little training and money. If this is the case where you are, take the classes and consider the money well spent. Then not only will you be in a better position to sell your own place, you ca also earn money selling for others.

-- Soni Pitts (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 11, 2001.

Ed, you wouldn't happen to be a Realtor, would you? ;o)

Anne, we did the very same thing with our first home. According to our Realtor we were doing everything wrong. We bought our new house without even having ours listed. He wanted to get ours listed and sold first (thus making us more desperate as buyers). Much to his chagrin, we didn't even list it with him when our offer was accepted. We advertised it ourselves for 20% more than the Realtor told us it was worth, showed it three times over that weekend & had three offers. We didn't even take the highest one (one for $500 less came from stronger buyers) and still got 15% more than the Realtor told us it was worth.

Pat, at least give it a shot yourself. You can always list it later. You have my best wishes for a quick and profitable transaction. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

A guy I work with ended up going FSBO after he got fed up with dealing with incompetent realtors. He got all the paperwork for free from the title company. He also found a realtor who listed it on MLS for a flat $400 fee. Of course, he had to pay the 3% commission to the selling realtor, but that was 1/2 of what it would have cost had he used a realtor for both halves of the transaction.

-- Steve - TX (steve.beckman@compaq.com), August 11, 2001.

Here's another hint on selecting a real estate attorney. Ask several title insurance officers who they recommend. Being in the title insurance business they work with all the local real estate attorneys and know who is good and who isn't.

-- Skip in Western WA (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), August 11, 2001.

Thanks guys for all the advice !! Think I'm gonna contact my attorney on Monday and see what he has to say. I sure would like to eliminate anyone who I can do without. I talked to the owner of the old farm and gave him my price as to what we would be willing to pay. I'll let yas know how it turns out.

-- Pat (mikulptrc@aol.com), August 11, 2001.

Here's a link for you to check out, Pat: http://www.forsalebyowner.com/

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), August 11, 2001.

We recently sold our house while at the same time buying another FSBO piece of property. We figured the property's value thru a friend in real estate and then we ran a larger ad in the local paper with a picture and the first person who looked at it bought it at our asking price. It was so nice to be able to just sit and talk with the potential buyer and come up with an agreement. We used standard purchase agreements obtained at Office Depot. The rest of the work was done by the title company and the buyers mortgage company. Our buyer had been working with a real estate and had become very discouraged, so was doubly happy to be working with us and also finding a house that was perfect for her. Working with the seller of the property we bought was equally easy. We talked over price and financing options, signed the same standard forms and again the rest was handled by our bank and the title company. We have bought and sold several properties in the past so were familiar with the procedure and both contracts were very simple and straightforward. I wouldn't hesitate to do it ourselves again. Best of luck and hope it goes smoothly for you.

-- Sherry (natmatters@mail.istal.com), August 11, 2001.

Just to address the question that Gary asked; NO I am not a Realtor, but most people do not know what that means. That would include a lot of folks posting on this board as well as a lot of folks in the real estate business.

When someone mentions a Realtors license, then you know that you are conversing with an uninformed person. The word Realtor indicates that the person is a "member" of a board of Realtors; a club if you will. The way you become a member of the club is with your checkbook, you pay your dues. This membership is not required to sell real estate, but a license issued by the state is a requirement.

So the answer to the question is NO, I am not a member of the club, however I am licensed as a Real Estate broker in my state which is Ohio. If you are ever in my town, McArthur (Ohio) look me up. ED COPP REALTY is at 107 S. Sugar, st. There is a property about 4 miles from the office that just sold (by owner, he saved the commission). It was purchased for all cash by a good friend of mine. The cost was $60,000. No realtor involved (I did not get involved either). I do know of two people who would have paid $100,000 cash, and that does not include tha man who bought it he also would have paid $100,000. The seller would not even quote me a price, he was so afraid that he would have to pay a commission. He saved the commission, it cost him $40,000 but he is a happy camper.

I have seen hundreds of examples of the same thing over and over again since I became licensed as a Real Estate Broker in 1970, this story is pretty common spend $20 to save $8 it happens all the time.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), August 11, 2001.

Have to throw in my two cents also. Having bought and sold property both with and without a realtor, excuse me, licenced real estate broker, I have to say that Ed is blowing smoke up your skirt. When it came to the legal aspects, it always seemed to me that the title company is the one that did all the work. If you know a good lawyer that will walk you thru without charging an arm and a leg it's not a bad idea to use them to double check the title company is not making any mistakes but if you don't have a clue, I'd be careful putting your trust in a "Real Estate Professional". Per capita I've met more bozos in the real estate profession than at the circus. And even if Ed is not one, he'd probably have to blushingly admit I'm right about that. In fairness to Ed, there are a lot of good realtors that can provide highly qualified marketing services to sellers, get the job done and earn their commission by getting you the best price, but when it comes to buyers agents and dual agents, I get pretty wary. For the informed buyer they seem more like parasites that just add to the cost of doing business. If you can do your homework, and figure out what the property is worth then you don't need a realtor to hold your hand for 7%. If you are confident you know what your buying and what it's worth, then all you need is a standard contract and a title company.

Think about Ed's example of the seller who left 40k on the table, there was a buyer that kept that 40K in his pocket, and he didn't need a real estate professional to do it. Some of the games we play in life can be rough, and there are often winners and losers. Don't play the game if you haven't learned the rules or you'll most likely be a loser. If your a novice then read some books, you can learn.

There are often unforseen pitfalls in the real estate game, even for the seasoned player, but a good real estate lawyer is usually a much better team mate than a realtor. There's nothing wrong with using a realtor, sometimes they really earn their commissions, but don't believe for a minute that you're doing a foolish thing not using one.

-- Carter (chucky@usit.net), August 11, 2001.

I, too, have a real estate license in the State of Illinois. I think it's great (honest!) when someone can sell their own home. I have nothing against it. But the people who cautioned you to be INFORMED were right on the money. In IL, there are certain state forms that MUST be filled out and presented to any potential buyer - that's the law, and failure to do so could possibly lead to a lawsuit afterward if the buyer chose.

One possible advantage of an agent showing your home is pre- qualification, and the listing broker stands the costs of all the advertising. I personally would be apprehensive about letting a lot of "lookers" into my home - there have been cases where people were just "casing the joint", so to speak, to see what goodies the "for sale by owner" had in the house. Later they came back and robbed the place. This doesn't happen frequently, of course, but occasionally does happen - probably more often in cities.

If you have the time, and the extra bucks to advertise, I'd go for it. And I agree that the title company is very important, and can really help you with what you need to know and do. Lawyers, on the other hand.........but that's another story.....

-- Bonnie (chilton@stateline-isp.com), August 12, 2001.

When we sold a house and acreage in Wisconsin 12 years ago or so, we did it ourselves, and got some help and advice from our banker. They had all necessary paperwork etc., that we had to fill out. No sense paying a realtor unless you need their experitise to advertise the place and find a buyer or seller. That is what they do best.

Jim

-- Jim (jiminwis@yahoo.com), August 14, 2001.

Our advertisement cost was about $1.29 for the sign we hung on the fence. Still sold it in four months and could have sold it sooner (waited for a dear friends child to decide and lost that buyer).

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), August 15, 2001.