In world war 2 (75%) of the trained soldiers who came in contact with the enemy could not fire their guns. Source (Men Against Fire). There is this strong internal resistance against killing another human being in NORMAL people.

This caused the military to change their brainwashing technique in the Vietnam war which upped the rate to about 40%. These are trained to kill soldiers!!!

This really makes me wonder how many people who own all those guns for protection would actually shoot someone? I wonder if I would? Do you think you could?

Anyway really makes you think doesn't it? Maybe a lot of those gun folks are fooling themselves.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Answers

Wow Kirk, I have never heard those stats............really raises my faith in human kind to tell you the truth. I have never kept a gun for self protection as I figured if I freeze up trying to kill a critter that is killing my critters that I more than likely wouldn't be able to kill a human and I have never really felt the need for self protection. Maybe it comes from some hard times as a kid but I have often felt like when I was in a really dangerous situation that I became invisible. Crazy huh?? Always worked for me and now I can't even remember the last time I was actually scared of another human. I have walked through some pretty violent situations in Haiti and people just move out of the way. Yes, I think there are a lot of people out there that are fooling themselves...........but that's maybe what they need to do to feel safe.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I love you Kirk!

Thanks for once again bringing up a something that warms my heart....

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Diane: But does it make them feel safe? In my life the people who don't own guns seen more secure because they know how to use other skills like communication. My father and brothers are huge gun people and they are always scared!! I have this hunch that owning guns only make people more afraid.

My father kept a loaded 38 in his night stand for 50 years and everyone in my family was scared to get up and use the bathroom!! Plus he was drunk every nite. Even so, I have a feeling anyone could have walked into our house and killed the whole family while my dad sat there shaking......Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Earthmama: Maybe I should post this on freedom and we could stand back and watch the show!!! HEE HEE...Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Think you hit the nail on the head with that last one, Kirk; seems to me the example from your life demonstrates that people who are gung-ho on guns arent scared cuz of the guns, but are gung-ho on guns cuz they're just plain scared.........

Living a life based on fear.........and funny how those people often bring fearful situations to themselves..........

Could I shoot a human being? No, certainly for 'self protection' I think not..........but if someone was about to hurt one of my girls, and someone else shoved a gun in my hand, I predict I would attempt to do whatever was needed to protect them. But does that mean I think I would be right to do so?

No, I do not. I dont happen to personally think its a good thing to become the thing one despises in others.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I own guns and must admit I was raised respecting guns.Used to hunt as a kid but didnt get off of the killing but sure enjoyed being out in nature and on an adventure. When I did take a life I respected that process and learned a lot about the process of living and dying which we civilized creatures are so seemingly insulated from. Natures way consists of living and dying witnessed in a few minutes of observing things in the garden. Learned a lot just watching animals, sometimes I think much more so than watching fellow humans (including that one in the mirror). I believe it would truely be a better world without guns,but thats not our present reality. I don't know if I would shoot someone in self defense because I'm not that convinced that death is much different, or better or worse than life. However if someone were threatening to do grave harm to my partner, my daughter, or most anyone else, I'm about 99% sure that with gun in hand, I would intervene. I would ask, who could sit by and watch someone get brutalized , if you had the means to stop it? Interesting stats on the war thing Kirk. Especially Viet Nam considering we were in no way threatened. I hate to admit it but I enlisted as a helicopter pilot during the viet nam era. Fortunately I never made it past boot camp and was spared any face to face confrontation with 'the enemy'as well as the killing experience. I think the assholes in power kind of exploit the lack of life experience and the ample testosterone of young adults when they are looking for someone to do some killing. enough rambling on my part.....peace jz

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I've thought about whether I'd be able to kill someone before. I believe if you are going to have a gun in the house that you must have an answer to this question before the situation arises where you would need to use it. Who knows how a person will respond until actually put to the test. But personally I have resolved that if in a situation with no other choice that I would use the gun with an intent to kill. I suspect I would have to make this decision quickly as to not be overpowered and have the gun taken away and used against me.

I feel bad saying what I did because I do value EM opinions and wouldn't want her or anyone else here to think less of me. But at the same time I feel I have to have my plan of action in mind before I need to decide or the outcome could be disastrous.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Gee Kirk, sweet and funny too!!! Yes, would this not make a wonderful "splash" on the freedom forum.

Denise, why would any of us think less of you because you had a plan?? I think if you are going to have a gun for self defense you most certainly should have a plan. I just have a plan for not having a gun in my hand. That is what works for me. :>)

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

That's a good one and I really don't know the answer.

When I was a kid and in HS I was one of those who seemed to attract the attention of the bullies and got pushed around alot. I started lifting weights and eventually got into a scuffle with one of the bullies and prevailed. Another of the bullies who was absolutely brutal in a fight was bothering me too and I publically challenged him to a wrestling match, HS rules, and he backed down and never bothered me again.

The point I'm trying to make is there's some validity to the idea that a strong defense is a good deterrant to agression. I think this applies to guns too. The real meat of the issue is exactly what Kirk asked but in between is the PERCEPTION of the would-be aggressors. If an assailant is faced with a 12 Ga. shotgun, he might be wondering if you'd really use it too but would likely not have the guts to push the issue.

I was raised with guns. Liked to spend time in the woods and hunted. For most of my life I've considered myself as a pacifistic anarchist but have come to the conclusion that I will defend myself or loved ones if required to do so.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I really don't know if I could actually shoot another human being. But I think that the instinct for self preservation or protection of one's own family is a very strong one! Probably no one really knows til they are in a situation to make that decision. We have several guns in our home...shotguns, rifles and handguns, but all have been accumulated either through inheritance or purchased specifically to take down certain animals. But I feel LOTS more nervous in a crowd of strangers than I do around those guns!! Does owning all these guns make us "gun fanatics" :-)??

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Fascinating info Kirk!!! Yes, I firmly believe handguns are a giant form of "compensation", much like old guys and their affinity for Corvettes and other sports cars!!!

Everyone I know that has a handgun at all has other mental "quirks", from just a little "off" to down right paranoid, and the nuttier they are, the more handguns they have. Handguns serve ONE perpose only, to shoot and kill people, rifles are for critter protection and hunting. Who in their right mind would even think of fending off a grizzly bear with a handgun? Or dropping a horse with a hopelessly mangled leg with a handgun, these are jobs that require large bore lead slugs with the powder behind them to kill instantly, a shotgun is required!

We have a variety of rifles here, and Dad had taught me from a very young age to properly use and operate rifles, but we don't hunt, the rifles are for protection only, from critters, two-legged and four- legged, and yes, if confronted with a situation of "gravest extreme" I could blast someone with the shotgun, and have a nuch better chance of dropping them on the first shot with a load of buckshot. Dad taught me to shoot to kill, and to shoot ONLY if the situation WARRANTS the killing of someone.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Annie, I don't think that handguns are only for shooting people. Hubby bought himself a 38 "special" handgun specifically to kill our pigs with. In a pen with a couple of nervous pigs, he is much more accurate with the 38 than he ever was with a large bore shotgun. With the handgun the pigs go down and stay down...with the shotguns sometimes the slug just "mushes out" against the bone and the poor pig gets quite frantic!! And so does DH :-)!! By the way, NONE of our guns are kept loaded in the house!!

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Maybe I should go over to the Freedom forum for this topic. I'm a member of the Second Amendment Sisters. Guess that makes me one of the looney gun nuts. I must just be compensating for the fact that I don't have a penis.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

ROTFLMAO at some of these replies!! Not a member of SAS, only 'cause I don't know where to send the dues - Help me out here, Sherri!!

I don't believe my little Ruger .22 qualifies as much a of phallic symbol (besides, I DO have a penis; I just have my husband tote it around for me ;o)!) Living just down the road from a methamphetamine lab (currently out of business; until they get out of jail again), you bet your bippy we're armed. Working around meth freaks, I know what kind of strength and morals they have - yes, I would shoot and I would shoot to kill if any of those morons came in my door. I wouldn't waste time with my .22 either - they'd get hit with the 12 gauge. Having been married to a gun dealer and being close friends with a collector and my husbands deceased father being a collector also, and hanging out at the gun club watching the shooting matches - I've been around a LOT of gun owners. Yeah, there are some folks out there who have guns because they are scared; probably some of them need to be. But there are a whole lot of folks out there who simply enjoy shooting, enjoy the workmanship of guns, enjoy the challenges to skill - and at least it's a USEFUL skill, unlike say...Golf. (Yeah, by golly I got that coyote that was bothering my chickens - got him with a nine iron at 150 yards - yeah, right!) I don't hunt, but it is nice to know that if I needed to, I wouldn't have to run down my game with a club. Also, I've never seen anyone put down any animal with a shotgun, unless you count deer season.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Polly, it's your fault that there is spit all over my computer screen! What'll I do, I don't have anyone to tote around a penis for me! ROTFLMAO! If anyone has one to spare, I might be able to get the dog to carry it around for me -- unless she decided it was a toy . . . Maybe not a good idea!

Kirk, if you have a URL or book source for your information, I would say go ahead and post it over at Freedom. I think they would enjoy having something to post about. Seriously. But just post it as info that they might find interesting and might like to discuss.

I saw a program within the last year or so (PBS, I think), about the Vietnam War, interviewing men who had participated. One really stuck in my mind. The man was talking about growing up with the "cowboy code" -- that backshooters or bushwhackers were the lowest of the low. Then going into the military and being taught to BE a bushwhacker. It upset him a lot. But maybe he fastened on that as the source of his distress -- maybe it was really just about killing people, period.

I've always thought that I WOULD be able to shoot someone threatening me or mine, but since I don't have a gun, it isn't very likely! Our family always had guns. All the men and some of the women were hunters. We were taught to respect guns from an early age, and to NEVER point a real gun at anyone, even if we were POSITIVE it was empty (many people have been killed by 'empty' guns!).

I think a safety course, with a test at the end, and the only 'passing' grade being 100%, should be a requirement to obtaining and/or using a gun. Maybe that just comes from seeing too many stupid people with guns . . .

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Here is what happened to me some years ago . . . First, some background information:

To get onto our property, you must first cross another ranch (locked gate)from the farm market road to our gate. Also is the fact that our ranch is located in a part of the country (deep south Texas) where a lot of illegal traffic (drugs, theft and illegal alien crossings) occur. Hence, there is some 'real world' concerns on our property of guns for protection. And now the rest of the story . . .

I was deer hunting by myself for about a week when several days into the trip, my cousin joined me for a 'day hunt'. He arrived about 5:00 a.m. and was ready to get out there. The morning and afternoon hunts passed by and he left. He had neglected to tell me that he did not have ranch keys. He had neglected to tell me that both gates were left unlocked by the caretaker of our ranch, who had anticipated my cousin showing up with no keys.

He had driven off, leaving me alone, and had found the gate to the outside ranch locked. Knowing I had a key, he came back to get me to open the gate. It was dark already.

Knowing that I was alone, I was preparing my supper when I heard a thumping outside. My thought was someone was trying to break into my truck and steal it. I ran to the light switch, and switched it off (so that no one could see me from the dark outside through a lighted window), put my hand on my holstered .41 Magnum revolver and jerked the door open ready to take them on . . .

My cousin, stomping the mud from his boots on the sidewalk, walked around the back of the cabin and reached for the cabin door . . .

where I saw a dark figure of a person three feet away from me reaching for the door!

I drew the pistol, cocked the single action revolver and pointed it at the figure . . .

when at the last second realized who it was and pointed the pistol away from him. (okay, you can start breathing again.)

Both of us were scared as hell at what could have happened; he was a split second away from the other world and we knew it. It was a near fatal mistake, one only stopped by what my father teachings were. 'Never shoot until you identify your target'.

One lesson learned: You arrive at the ranch with someone already there, give a hoot, yelp or truck honk to let them know someone has just arrived without scaring them. Lesson two: Yeah, I didn't freeze at the thought of hostile engagement. Years of the mindset of 'condition yellow' doesn't allow me that option. I don't consider it paranoia, it is just being ready for what can and does happen.

That is my story.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Joy: I was just thumbing through this book at the library. Admittedly I didn't read the whole book but just copied the statistics. I found this in a web search.

http://www.ou.edu/oupress/mars3280.htm

This is not a lot of info but at least it shows I didn't make it up.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Polly, you are so bad! Here's the link for the Second Amendment Sisters website: SAS

I don't even own a handgun, but I don't like people trying to tell me that I can't own one if I want. I honestly don't know if I could shoot someone, and I pray that I never find out.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Sherri, I didn't mean to say that folks shouldn't own a handgun if they want one, I am a stauch supportor of the Second Amendment. But, of the folks I know personally, the ones with the most guns are the same ones who are a slight bit "off", to put it politely, and the more handguns they own, the more "off" they get.

Now remember, I live in the boonies and the nearest town of 600 people reminds me strongly of "Mayberry RFD", so I have very little to be afraid of at night except an adventuresome black bear looking for goodies, we moved from the nasties of America (used to live 20 minutes from Akron and all the drug dealers it has, dead bodies turned up on our road at least once a year) to down here in peaceful SE Ohio in a county that for the past 7 years had no violent crime at all!!!

If we still lived up North, yes, I would have a handgun, ONE of them, and a license to carry it on me at all times.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

You know, you all really need to move down here in our county!!!

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

Gee, Kirk, I HOPE you didn't think I was implying that you made it up, because I sure wasn't! I just thought that if you posted it at Freedom, they'd want to see some evidence.

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I've been thinking about why Hubby and I have so many guns in the house. Don't know why really. Like I said before, most were acquired through inheritance. After all, my state of Maine only had about 11 stranger-to-stranger murders during all of 2000. Most of the violence here is domestically related. But...I sure am glad for the right to have whatever I want for guns in my home!!

-- Anonymous, July 30, 2001

I swear this is sooo funny! In our little town paper today was a story of a guy that slept with his rifle and accidently shot himself in the leg!!!! Now thats embarrasing!!

Thanks for all your responses. This is a really heavy topic and a lot of people really feel strongly one way or the other. I value other points of view but lets face it??? I'm right on this one. Hee hee hee...Much love....Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

I've given this one some thought in the past, especially when we were threatened a nighttime visit by the KKK last year! What I came up with is that I could probably kill if I was really mad, but probably not purely in self defense. I also decided that I didn't have enough faith in my judgement or the legal system, and would probably not shoot for fear of 20+ years in jail.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Kirk...Years ago in one of our local newspapers, there was a story of a guy who tucked a small 22 cal. pistol in the front of his jeans. Well, guess what. The gun went off! The bullit just grazed a "certain area" and imbedded itself in his thigh. Good thing he was a rather "small" man :-)!!

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Yep, Polly, yer alright. Ditto her answer. Different areas have different cultures.That's critical to understanding where someone is coming from on alot of issues,including this one. When I lived back in PA I didn't worry abt having a weapon or not,althoug I did.Much more of a peacable kingdom there. I did, I can use them and I would shoot a person with no problem. Already faced that demon. You know I shoot deer, and I like deer a whole lot better than I like two legged coyotes. Think about it.

Here, you best be armed and dangerous. Just the way it is. When I walked in the house of a lovely and kindly older couple we'd met,retired schoolteachers,there was a loaded 44mag on the TV. Uh...it wasn't there for show and tell,either. And,they aren't gun nuts.

Most people are fine,but there is always a bad apple,like the example Polly used. Don't count on anyone to protect you when you live this far out. Be prepared to take care of your own,or don't live here. The neighbor lady lives abt two miles back from me.I'm her closest neighbor.She's there alone alot 'cause her husband works odd hours. She put a pistol to the sneak thief neighbor's nose (who was telling her he wasn't afraid of no woman) and left him know that she's been hunting since she was 12,knew how to use it, and was ready to pull the trigger. He got quite a bit more respectful of her,after that. Some people require that kind of attitude adjustment. Only language they understand. You will do what you have to do to survive.Natural instinct for most people.

We have pistols,rifles,shotguns,spears,knives,clubs,cleavers (heeheehee),and the occassional pencil(hahaha).So sorry to dissapoint,but none are phallic.Just another tool. I know how to use most of them to defend myself or provide food,and Nick really knows how to use what's on hand. Including his...well,you know....

I'd love to make a smart remark abt.penises,but I don't think I can top Polly's. We'll just let that one stand up on it's own. Tee hee.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

I think you might have come close to topping it Sharon with the "stand up" remark :-)!!!

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Oh dear, I guess I am a gun-waving nutcase. I've got two handguns, but one is a .22, so is that one-and-a-half?

As Joy mentioned, we grew up around guns, there was a full gun cabinet in the living room, and we knew for certain that we'd be killed (by parents, not the guns) if we took one out. Even so, we used to sneak the key -- so we could unlock the drawer down below where the duck calls were stored. Now, THAT was entertainment!!!

Our family were all trained in what not to do with a gun. My grandmother demanded that the hole blown in the dining room wall be left just as it was (it did get painted over a few times), from the 'unloaded' gun that someone pulled the trigger on, as a constant reminder -- and she pointed it out often.

We also had the constant reminder of one of our gradeschool classmates (8 grades, 70 students...) who is on crutches to this day from having snuck a gun out of the house for fun.

But I do have guns. I didn't, but then the local mongrels that the Indians let run started coming after my horses. One day I ran out to shoo them off (all the other local curs would act guilty and run), and THIS time, they didn't run. They turned on me, and started coming after me, hackles up, stiff legged. Fortunately, my dad saw that happening and came running out yelling, and carrying a handgun in case we needed it. With two of us, the dogs scarpered off, but they were running loose in the neighborhood, and about three days later, my dad presented me with my own handgun, bullets, and an injunction not to go out to scare off dogs without it anymore.

Fortunately, I never had to use it on those dogs. The indian family moved, and left the dogs behind to fend for themselves, and that meant the DNR had to come deal with them. (chasing down deer)

However, altho we live in a little tiny town too, like Annie, and it was a great place to grow up as a kid, today I am less certain. I don't know half the people who have moved in, or any background on them. Some appear to be fine, I enjoy pushing extra garden produce on them when they walk their dog by; others --? Well, I just don't know. One winter morning I woke up and opened the curtains to discover large human tracks in fresh snow, going all the way around the house, with stops by doors and windows. I called up my brother and my cousin and asked them if they'd been over for some reason. Neither one had.

If someone had needed help, they would have come to the front door and rung the bell. I would LIKE to think that it was perhaps a new meter reader for the electric company who didn't know where the meter was and went the wrong way around, but why the stops at windows and doors? (you could tell by the tracks)

Oh, you bet I've got a gun. If someone were threatening my 'children' (my animals) they would be in serious trouble (I have run into burning barns to rescue them, as well as run out the door unarmed and in socks in winter to defend them against a marauding bear. The good news is, it wasn't my barn that was on fire, it was the next one over, and the bear turned out to be a Newfoundland, who ran off looking very guilty and didn't come back. But the spirit is there.). But I might be so flapped that I forgot the gun. I've had the forethought to go get it in a couple of instances, but haven't needed it.

Shortly after the prowling incident, I'd taken to locking my bedroom door at night with me and the dogs inside it. I figured that if anyone broke into the house looking for valuables, the Tv, VCR, and anything else worth money was out in the other end of the house. The only things in the bedroom were me and my dogs, and if they decided to try coming through that locked door, they were up to no good and I didn't particularly have any compunctions about shooting through the door.

Not long after that, someone did get into the house, and was prowling stealthily around. I could hear them and so could the dogs (growling).I got out the gun. Not too long after that, I heard a pill bottle hit the floor and pills go everywhere. It was my dumb brother, probably with a hangover, and probably out of aspirin himself. I didn't come anywhere near as close to shooting him as j.r. did, and I would have warned anyone in that event (while dialing the cops) that shooting was about to commence anyway, but it is important if you've got a gun that you know how to use it and how to do so calmly.

If I'd had the gun with me during the two bear incidents, I don't think that I would have shot them (for one thing, it was out of season, and they really weren't threatening me) unless it had escalated quite a bit and I was in fear of my life. A human....well...I hope that I never have occasion to find out what I'd do.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Marcia: I wonder what kinda person would shove a loaded pistol into his pants pointing at his ding-a-ling!!!!!! Someone should slap his mother!! Really funny.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2001

Oh yeah, I was going to comment on that same little shooting incident Kirk mentioned. Urban Legend has it that at one time in the old west, this is how all the men carried their guns. It was known as a 'Front Arm', until some unknown man bellied up to the bar and fired off what has become known as 'The Shot Heard Round The World'.

Within days, everyone now went with a 'Side Arm' instead.

(I SAID it was an Urban Legend! It was created by a man named Paul Wooldrige, but I thought it was funny...)

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Hey, about that 'penis' statement folks. A point to be made:

Why would so many 'snub' (2 in. barrels)guns be sold when a 'Buntline' special (12 in. barrels) is available? What kinda logic is that, guys? hee hee hee . . .

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001

Interesting statement, j.r.!!!! I shall "ponder" it further.

-- Anonymous, August 01, 2001