Having read so much about the Leica "mystique", I'd like to get a used M body and a 35mm lens.

What do you folks recommend I look for? I know that I would like one with a meter. I'll use it mainly for random street shots in B&W, as a supplement to my Nikon.

I have a Contax G system, but I used to really enjoy using my Nikon FM in the hyperfocal mode. Yes, I know I can do that with the Contax, but it's a pain, and I know I can just get another FM, but I like the smallness of the rangefinder and it's lenses.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), July 19, 2001

Answers

One other thing: In the past I've toyed with the Leicas but always had trouble using the rangefinder focus. However, I just picked up a Hasselblad XPAN and I'm not having any trouble at all focusing that....if they made some faster lenses I'd be in heaven.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), July 19, 2001.

Wouldn't it be great is Hassy would make a 35 or 50 f2? I'd actually be happy if it didn't cover the panorama format, that would keep the size down. With a lens like that, I could use the Xpan as my travel camera. As it is now, it's set aside for special projects.

I would look for:

1. An M6 if money isn't a problem. You'll appriciate having the meter inside. TTL or not is your choice.

2. A Voigtlander Bessa-R if money is a problem. No you won't be able to use the M lenses, but you'll get a feel for the whole "Rangefinder thing"

3. A Leica M2 or M4-P if money is kind of an issue, but you still want a "Leica". You can spend a couple hundred extra later and get the nice Voigtlander meter to put on top.

4. A Konica Hexar RF if you want something that is closer to your G2 (but with M lenses and manual focus).

For lenses, get the summicron 35/2 (latest non-asph), for a very good cost effective lens. If you have more to spend, get the asph or a 35/1.4 summilux. If you have less to spend (or are using the Bessa-r) get the Voigtlander 35/2.5 "classic" lens.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), July 19, 2001.

Hi, Jim: You said "any suggestions" so I feel free to suggest a M3 though I know it has no meter. But I think you are experienced enough to do without it after some practice. The M3 is worth the effort. For a 35 mm lens I use the 35mm with goggles which is small and light and performs extremely well (mine, at least). But though so many expert opinions point that the 35mm is the right lens for street photography I prefer the 50mm f2 Cron. For results see this sample which was quickly scanned for you just now . . . Regards and have fun !

-Iván

-- Ivan Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), July 19, 2001.

You can get a new M6TTL for $1605 and a new 35mm/f2 Summicron ASPH for $1124 from www.DeltaInternational.com (grey market). Used, you can get the body for maybe $1400, and the lens for maybe $950. You can save some $$ by getting an older verison 35mm lens and perhaps a beat-up M6. Naturally, you can spend more and get a faster lens(es) and more goodies.

As someone here said, its not that Leica gear is more expensive, you just have to buy it more slowly :-)

You can save more cost by buying a 50mm Summincron lens instead of a 35mm lens, and manu will urge that that is preferrable.

I'd recommmend buying one lens and shooting it for a few months before adding your second lens.

You mentioned the Leica mystique, and I wholly believe it exists and is a joy to experience, thus I suggest you do not get a brand other than Lieca from the get go.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), July 19, 2001.

Jim:

I will second Dan's recommendations. Delta International's prices are very reasonable for new equipment. I too started with a M6 TTL 0.72 and a 35mm Summicron ASPH lens. This is a perfect (for me) setup for street photography. At f8 and hyperfocal distance setting with 100 or 400 ISO film, the 35mm lens provides more than adequate depth of field. I did later buy 90/f2, 135/f4, 50/f1, 50/f2 and 21/f2.8 ASPH lenses to complete my M system, but that is another story!..............

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), July 19, 2001.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Josh, you're right. I wish Hassy made a 35/2 for the XPAN, just to use in the regular mode. Perhaps someone will make some lenses for the Hassy XPAN mount in the future.

And, you're right also, Dan. I've pretty much tried every other camera available. If I go for one, it will be a Leica.

I can meter myself, without a built-in meter (i've been second guessing them for years), but I always like to campare my estimates with the cameras.

I wish I had remembered Delta International when I bought my XPAN. I could have saved a few hundred dollars. Age really does affect your memory!

Thanks for the suggestions. Any others would be appreciated.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), July 19, 2001.

Well, nobody has mentioned it so I guess I will...check out an M5 before you buy an M6. It's bigger, yes, but the ergonomics are better (in that the shutter speed is in the finder and the speed dial is easily altered while looking through the finder) and it has a good built-in meter. You may be pleasantly surprised after hearing all the negative impressions that people have that it is a fine camera, built to last a lifetime, and feels good in the hand particularly if you do not have small hands. Arguably, it is a better match (balance-wise) to the latest, larger lenses. The pre-asph 35mm Summicron is a lens to consider, as others have mentioned.

-- Dan Kreithen (dkreithen@mindspring.com), July 19, 2001.

Jim:

Josh, you're right. I wish Hassy made a 35/2 for the XPAN, just to use in the regular mode. Perhaps someone will make some lenses for the Hassy XPAN mount in the future.

If I am not mistaken [could be] the XPAN lenses are medium format lenses with coverage greater than 6 x 6 lenses. A 35mm f/2 would probably be a bear and cost a fortune [a Hasselblad tradition].

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), July 19, 2001.

Had a Hassleblad X-pan and thought that compared to the Leica it was a monster. Hated the feel. Loved the 90mm lens. Hated the pano feature (?). Don't screw around, just get the M6 that best suits your shooting style. For me its the .85 with a 50mm lens plunked onto the front. Which 50? just get the Summicron, its so good. Then stop and shoot a couple hundred rolls of film before posting the inevitable next question: Which lens next? Just my opinion and I'm sure after seeing the response to my review on the M6 here on Photo.net that I'll be flamed for each word above. That's okay, Austin in the Summer already has me fried........

-- kirk r. tuck (kirktuck@kirktuck.com), July 19, 2001.

Kirk,

Thanks for your review. I found it very interesting as an M6 owner and very useful to refer people to when they say "Why a Leica?".

I think you're right about the Summicron. Thirty minutes ago, I just bought one! I'd recently picked up a Tri-Elmar (which I'm delighted with - fantastic hiking lens) and have been using the 50mm setting a lot. I was tempted by the 50mm Summilux but the 'Cron is a great deal ($670 with the Leica Days & the $200 rebate) and I like the feel of the aperture ring more than the Summilux.

Anyway, thanks again for the review.

Fergus

P.S. Unrelated but I put some put scans from my street photography class up on www.dingoboy.com. Comments from anyone? I'm still mostly concentrating on stealthy focusing & metering techniques.

-- Fergus Hammond (fhammond@adobe.com), July 19, 2001.

Thanks guys. I'll check out the M5, but I must say I generally go smaller.

Read, and commented, on your fine review, Kirk. In fact it got me to check out the Leicas yet again.

I bought the XPAN because I've always loved the panoramic look, but didn't want to deal with the pano-only cameras, and didn't want to go to a larger format. I love it. It shouldn't really be compared to the Leicas, but it's from the same mould.

Anyway, I've been shooting for over 30 years. I learned photography on a totally manual system, using one prime lens at a time...no zooms. I'm just so tired of all the matrix this and that, vibration reduction, multiple focusing points, etc...

After all, it still all comes down to f-stops and shutter speeds. I've spent all this money on this stuff only to discover the first camera I had (Minolta SRT) was probably all I ever needed.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), July 19, 2001.

The problem with the M5 (it's a great camera), is that it seems to have gone up in value 100% from two years ago. You just can't find one in great shape for less than a new M6. The minty versions seem to be selling for two grand.

Ah well...Collectors.

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), July 19, 2001.

Get a Leica CL with the 40mm f=2 and a Leica Tri-Elmar with a 28mm BL finder. The 40/f2 lens is a fine general purpose lens and the tri-elmar is good for everything else. The 40 frame line in the leica CL range finder is actually a better 35 frame than the 35 is on an M6. The CL is very small, has TTL and is relatively inexpensive by Leica standards.

-- mark (mramra@qwest.net), July 19, 2001.

I would personally handle any of these cameras before you put your money down on one. Basically, people have suggested every Leica and Leica compatible body that has a meter! I found the CL to be very small and fiddly, and they just plain don't have the "Leica" feel, since they were consumer cameras and were built to a different standard. I'm sort of surprised after having one (and selling it eventually) that there are so many still around in working order. The CL meter, although ostensibly similar to the M5 (CDS photocell) is just not in the same league as far as accuracy. I find my M5 to be very accurate, even under incandescent lighting, conditions for which the CDS photocell (due to its spectral response, which is somewhat different than film) usually reads fast. Don't ask me how they managed it, but it works very well.

The way I think about it, the M5, in actual use (with the meter) is more of an "aperture priority" camera, whereas the M6 is "shutter priority". By this, I mean that with the M5, you set the aperture, look through the viewfinder, and read the meter. Then you adjust the very easily accessible shutter dial to the proper speed...which is visible in the viewfinder. With the M6 (although I have not used the M6TTL, which has a larger dial), you set the aperture, then read the meter. If you want to adjust the shutter speed dial (on the classic M6), you then must remove the camera from your eye, so that you can turn the fiddly thing - maybe some people are better at turning that little dial than I am. The easier thing to do is to grab the aperture ring, and adjust that for proper exposure. For me, this is the opposite of what I want - I want to set an aperture so I know my approximate depth of field, and adjust the shutter.

Anyway, a long-winded explanation of why I think the M5 setup is better (for me, anyway). In addition, the M5 doesn't suffer as badly from the notorious rangefinder flare problem (under certain conditions) which was exacerbated, from what I understand, by the removal of a condensing lens in the rangefinder assembly, no doubt from cost-cutting considerations. Anyway, both the M5 and M6 are very good cameras, but they are different. You should try before you buy.

And yes, collectors have pushed the prices up, unfortunately. But you ARE going to buy a user, right?

-- Dan Kreithen (dkreithen@mindspring.com), July 19, 2001.

"Smallness - lenses - meter - mystique - 35"

I only see one solution, kiddo. A .72x-viewfinder M6 with a pre-ASPH 35 Summicron f/2. The M5 is big; the V'lander doesn't have the lenses, the silence or the mystique*; the M2/3/4/-2/-P don't have the meter. A 35 'Cron from 1980-1996(?) will give you the best image FOR THE BUCK in that focal length as well as smallest possible size and most "Leica look" both cosmetically and in the photographs.

(I know "f/2" and "Summicron" are redundant, but this is for a Leica novice who may not know the mystical mumbo-jumbo of Leicadom yet)

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), July 20, 2001.

I absolutely agree with Andy, get a used M6 .72 classic and a 35/2 preasph, if it is cosmeticaly ugly and cheaper you can always send it to leica and get it back renewed, if you want to save money, if you like the feel and use of a FM2 you will for sure be VERY PLEASE with this combination, but you bettre go and check first, no better camera for street photo.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), July 20, 2001.

Art,

"If I am not mistaken [could be] the XPAN lenses are medium format lenses with coverage greater than 6 x 6 lenses. A 35mm f/2 would probably be a bear and cost a fortune [a Hasselblad tradition].

Both Jim and I were saying that we wished there was a 35/2 that only covered the 35mm frame. Not the panorama format. A 35/2 that would do that would be very large and pricey indeed.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), July 20, 2001.

Get an M2. And don't sweat the lack of a meter -- hand held is better anyway.

-- Russell Brooks (russell@ebrooks.org), July 20, 2001.

I would advise the purchase of an M2 if you intend to use the 35mm lense most often. The M3 is also an excellent camera but you need to use "eyes" with the 35mm lense which degrades the viewing of the subject, even though the 35mm Summaron is an excellent. I have used both and prefer the 35 without the "eyes".

-- John Alfred Tropiano (jat18@psu.edu), July 20, 2001.

It sounds like what I want is the M6 .72, with the 35/2 preasph. My research points me in that direction also. Sadly, I'll have to wait a couple of months for that. I can't go too crazy with the cedit cards.

I can't see buying used as oppossed to grey market, especially if it's just a couple of hundred dollars difference.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), July 20, 2001.

I can't see buying used as oppossed to grey market, especially if it's just a couple of hundred dollars difference.

Couple hundred dollars here, couple hundred dollars there and pretty soon you're halfway to a (used) lens. (e.g., 50/f2's seem to go for around $650 used).

I bought a .72 TTL demo model for $1400 off eBay from a dealer. With a 1 yr warranty. Was spotless. Box, papers, the whole nine yards.

Then my 90/2.8 was practically new too, in the box. For a little over $900. Pretty sure I paid too much, from Don Chatterton. But it's practially new too. Now I'm just trying to figure out how wide to with my next lens. 35 is just right for the .72, esp. when I wear glasses (50% of the time); 28 is what I generally liked to see on my SLR, and 50mm seems like a great all arounder too. Also, f-stop for f-stop, the 50 is cheaper than the 35 than the 28.

There have been other threads for people about to take the plunge. Note that what you see in the M viewfinder is quite different from an SLR or the Contax G (AFAIK).

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), July 20, 2001.

If you're willing to plunk down $1600 for a new, gray-market M6TTL, what would you be willing to pay for a new, USA 3-year Passport Warranty model? How about $1650? New York Camera & Video (www.nycv.com) sells new, USA M6TTL's (all flavors and colors) for $1850. With the current $200 rebate, that price drops to $1650. And no, they won't charge you $50 in shipping, either. I don't work for them, I just buy from them. ;-) Check out their feedback on photo.net.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), July 20, 2001.

I prefer the M6TTL and the M4-P bodies. Both have the same .72x viewfinder magnification.

My most used lenses are a 35/2 ASPH and a 24/2.8 ASPH. Right after them comes a 50/2, then a Heliar 15 and an Elmarit M 90/ 2.8.

Keep it simple when you start. A Leica with one or two lenses, widely spaced in focal length, is what I usually carry when I'm out shooting seriously.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), July 20, 2001.

Jim: M-6. The meter is a handy thing. The CLE is also a wonderful camera if you can find one. But for Leica a used M-6. Lens: Either 50/f2 or 35/f2. And stick a Rapidwinder on it. Then you are in Heaven.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4u.or.jp), July 21, 2001.

Hi,

I just have a quick question;

I see people suggesting the M6, M5, M2 and M4-P but not the M4. Is that because price is a little high as they were no made in great numbers or are they not regarded as highly??

Just wondering...

Mark

-- Mark Griffin (gripper@mark-griffin.com), July 22, 2001.

There were only 58,000 M4's made, and their prices have been bid up significantly due to their rarity and "original Leica quality" mystique. They are significantly more expensive than an M6 in the same condition. I've had two of them, and much as I loved their elegance and buttery smoothness, I much prefer an M6 as a camera to bring home pictures.

-- Paul Chefurka (chefurka@home.com), July 22, 2001.

Ah the M-4! Back in 1987 I bought one at K & S in Palo Alto for $400. Slight dent on the edge of the body and one ding on the baseplate. It is a nice little camera. Its frames go 35 / 135, 50, 90. You can imagine a 28mm frame at 90. No frame for 75mm. Cannot motorize it or stick a Rapidwinder on it (though it can be modified for the latter). Many people say that Leica craftsmanship went down after the M-4. I don't know. It is a lovely camera but a bit limited. I would frankly choose the now cheaper M-2 over the M-4. It is possible to put a special Rapidwinder on an M-2 (which also works on the M-1 and MD). But if you happen to see a good deal on an M-4 and you don't mind its limitations, for it.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4u.or.jp), July 25, 2001.

Help my new m6 is so nice i cannot use it.It makes my f100 feel really crude and cheap.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), February 14, 2002.

Help my new m6 is so nice i cannot use it

If that's the case, then you should return it.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

how can i return a work of art which i love,i will save fore a secondhand one.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), February 14, 2002.

how can i return a work of art which i love,i will save for a secondhand one.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), February 14, 2002.

The M6 is a piece of History.built like now other Camera by far.In addition it encourages you to be part of the photo not sitting with a zoom missing the real world,and it is a pleasure ,in it self to use.If you want the best in every way, sorry, you have to pay.There are plenty of snap shots around and digital for the herded lemmings.Be a photo artist do not compremise go for the best, do not waste money on the rest.A m6 will last a life time, and still be worth a lot of money.will your digital.Go for it, be happy, when you know you have the best who needs the rest. Or buy a contax g2 a spend your time justify it,been there got the tea shirt you can have it free.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), February 14, 2002.

Enjoy the best ,now you have tried the rest, you will never look back.Good combo with 35mm for street photos.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 02, 2002.