From Slate.com:

""I know what wages beauty gives," said the poet William Butler Yeats about a century ago. Modern econometricians know more precisely. In their published research, Professors Daniel Hamermesh and Jeff Biddle estimate that if you're perceived as beautiful, you probably earn about 5 percent more than your ordinary-looking counterparts.

As beauty is rewarded, so ugliness is penalized. Ugly women earn about 5 percent less than other women, and ugly men earn about 10 percent less than other men. That's right; the market punishes men more than women for being unattractive. Moreover, men's looks haunt them at every stage of their careers: Better-looking men get more job offers, higher starting salaries, and better raises. For women, good looks will get you better raises but usually not better job offers or starting salaries."

So, do you make an effort to take advantage of this phenomenon, or you just sit in your cubicle all day being bitter while stuffing the ho-ho's?

(Full article at http://slate.msn.com/Economics/01-07-09/Economics.asp)

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Answers

It's odd to think that having geometrically proportionate features can land you a better job and result in you getting more than your fair share of life's perks. However, I think everything is relatively ok when you consider the starving children in Africa.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I'm sorry, Curtis. "Ugly" automatically equals "fat" why exactly? I don't see "fat" as a synonym anywhere in the article.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Never made it into a synonym. But the article covers the disadvantages of both ugliness *and* being fat:

"But while men suffer more for being ugly, women—and specifically white women—suffer more for being fat. In a paper from last year, Professor John Cawley found that an extra 65 pounds typically cost a white woman 7 percent of her wages. To put this another way, if you're a seriously overweight white woman, losing 65 pounds is likely to be as lucrative as an extra year of college or three extra years of work experience."

So don't be thick (hah)- If you're just trying to pick a fight (as I suspect), come with something better than that.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

cubicle

bitterness

Though, with the phrasing you just used, I could be compelled to leave the cube for a jog. Or at least a brisk walk.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

The title of the article is "Hey, Gorgeous, Here's a Raise! As for you fatties, we're cutting your salaries."

Anyway... I don't doubt at all that some of that is in play, but I always am curious about methodology - in this case it sounds like they used a group viewing photos to determine 'beauty' (and the group must have higher expectations that attractive white women should be thin?) and match up that group's assessment with the subject's job history.

I have a problem with that - I want to know 1) who hired them? Would a heavy black female boss assess me according to the same criteria as a young white male boss? Etc, etc, etc. Who was the group that studied still shots composed of? And most importantly, attractiveness is about a lot more that what is revealed in a still photo, and presumably employers would see a person in a far more animated state, which would alter their perception of their attractiveness, wouldnt' it?

It's an interesting article, and there is no doubt a grain of truth there in general, but in specific I think it's naive to think that a facelift of weightloss program or whatever is going to translate into x% of improved earnings.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I only skimmed the article, as that sort of study's been done before, and I've read the basics elsewhere. I didn't catch the bit about being overweight. And I wasn't attempting to pick a fight. I got annoyed at what I perceived as a casual disparaging remark, and, well, it's not important anyway.

I guess I'm in the bitter and cubicle-sitting camp.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I agree, Lynda (tho' I think there's more than a grain of truth in the article). The authors address your concerns somewhat- it's admitted that being attractive often results in being more confident, outgoing, etc. Y'know, the other things that inspire people to hire (beyond small factors like competence, of course . . .).

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I would think the self-confidence thing would come into play in a huge way.

I'd be interested to see what the results would be if, instead of strangers assessing stills, the ones deciding if a person was 'attractive' was the person being judged, and then finding out how ones perception of their own attractiveness plays out in job success.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

This is horrible, horrible news. To think that people might earn less money due to genetic factors beyond their control, well, it breaks my heart. Can there be anything sadder or more heart wrenching than a statistical wage disparity?

I have a solution, though. The government should start some programs aimed at funneling the less attractive and the pleasantly plumper people into higher paying jobs. We could have scholarships that are only available to the unattractive or persons whose clothing sizes meet stringent criteria. We could reserve spots in university for them, or allow them lower admission standards.

It seems to me that some kind of affirmative action should be taken until everything is niiiice and even.

'Cause, it's only fair.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Since when is appearance a genetic factor beyond one's control?

Genes indubitably play some role in appearance (as they do in virtually every human trait) but it is certainly less than the 100% they play in determining race and gender.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I've lost mucho weight and kept it off, but I did that for my health and self-esteem, not for a raise. But I wouldn't say no to one. Nosirree bob.

For my money-making efforts, I concentrate on being assertive, taking my sister's advice on salary and (once a year, minimum) raise negotiations (she worked as a consultant in executive placement), switching jobs when I'm not getting what I want, telling my bosses when the head hunters call, and not taking no for an answer. I am utterly shameless. But no one seems to mind.

Now that I know about the attractiveness/fat thing though, well, clearly, it's time to talk turkey with the head honchos again...

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I -am- Charles Schwaab... and Yeats looked like a butt with a beard.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

From the article Cory pointed us to: "They won't whistle at a perfectly healthy and fecund 20-year-old."

And this is a problem?

I don't know if I'd whistle at Julianna Moore either, I just think whistling at strange women is kinda crappy. I wouldn't, however, kick her out of bed.

Anyhoo, I hate this biological determinist crap. Last I checked most men I know didn't want tons of children. We're not exactly in danger of having our young one's carried off by coyotes here (which may be bad news for some of the parents on this list).

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Genes indubitably play some role in appearance (as they do in virtually every human trait) but it is certainly less than the 100% they play in determining race and gender.

that word is just as hard to say mentally as it is out loud.

I don't think you'll find many women complaining about appearance and its detremining role in society. Seems that the more sensitive, understanding, enlightened gender of the human race can be quite shallow. However, they prefer mates that can walk in the deep.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Hate me because I make more than you.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Jen, have you ever looked at identical twins? Same genes, same looks. Case closed.

Given the same effort, a person's looks are 100% determined by their genes. Why should a person whose genes make them less attractive have to work harder than somebody with "better" genes? Clearly the government needs to get involved here.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I was going to post something intelligent and incisive into this thread, but then I read Morpheus's use of the phrase "butt with a beard" and now I'm laughing too hard to think of anything.

....

OK, calming down now ... I too would want to have a full understanding of the study's methodology before forming any solid opinions of it, but in general I can see a certain logic in the conclusion. Decisions on pay raises and promotions are made by human beings and are affected by their own biases. People get passed over for promotions and shafted on raises (or conversely, given promotions and large raises) for all kinds of intangible reasons that aren't directly tied to competence. I can easily imagine a supervisor, even if wholly unconsciously, being affected by the employee's weight, or degree of self-confidence, or neatness or any of a dozen other factors.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I'd certainly consider self confidence and neatness in almost any capacity.

As to attractiveness, I think Jen is right- barring a few truly ugly people on this planet (bless 'em), attractiveness is not largely a function of genetics.

So drop the cheesecake and brush your hair, folks.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Dave, haven't you ever seen pictures of Michael and Janet Jackson? Clearly, more effort is not always better.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Dave, haven't you ever seen pictures of Michael and Janet Jackson? Clearly, more effort is not always better.

Ah, geez. Now I'm going to have nightmares about all those freaky Jacksons.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

As coincidence would have it, Janet Jackson had a concert in Vancouver last night. The interesting story is that she pulled a random guy from the audience, strapped him to a torture bed, and rubbed him all over with her body. (The guy was on the radio this morning swearing it wasn't a plant.)

Frankly, that would be pretty scary.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Oh, and Mr. Grenier wrote: We're not exactly in danger of having our young one's carried off by coyotes here

Here's a story about the second coyote attack this month.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Janet Jackson is fine! It's not her fault Micheal wants her looks thereby causing her to resemble him. Janet is soooo fine. Her voice is fine, her booty is fine, her skin is fine, her dancing is fine, her thighs are fine, her lips are fine, her eyes are fine, the way her chastity chain hangs across her naked hip is fine... Janet Jackson is so damb fine.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Janet Jackson is fine!

Hmph. Says YOU.

Actually, I'll admit that she's the most human-looking of the Jacksons, but still seems a tad plastic for my taste.

Not that she cares what *I* think.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Apparently some people do find her attractive. Not me. She's scary looking at the best of times, and that giant perma-smile she has in all her videos just freaks me out.

Okay, back on topic now before I get another smackdown.

How about this: less attractive people don't actually make less money because of their looks. Perhaps there is a correlation between how well a person looks after themselves and how well they look after their work? Huh? Huh?

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

In that case, -I- am Martha Stewart, and Dave looks like a butt with a beard.

Seriously, folks, (hey look, -I'm- Paula Poundstone) if this whole beauty = increased success thing is true, is it on a bell curve? Because if not, could someone explain away Bill Gates to me?

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

oh well, that's the typical nerdy stereotype -- I program but shaving and washing can wait, eh?

He's CEO something or other now though, and doesn't have to hang out in his garage, and can hire someone else to remind him to bathe.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

oh, wait, you were speaking strictly of his good looks, nevermind.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Billy the genius boy didn't have to climb the corporate ladder -- he built his own!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Well, stole his own. He didn't invent DOS, it was already around. That's what Microsoft was built on.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

does the homeowner persecute the builder? does the builder persecute the tree? does the tree persecute the seed? Without one you cannot have the other. And so it was with Bill and his software evolution.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Rudie,

Lets just pretend for a second that the following scenerio is plausible.

I take all of the posts from the Xeney.com forum and put them into a book. For some reason the book sells millions. I become a millionare selling this book and hailed as a genius for writing it.

At some point wouldn't at least one person on here say, "uh, he didn't write it, and where's my fuckin' money?"

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Um ... actually David, Gates and his associates didn't steal DOS, they bought it from another small company called Seattle Computer. And they did so because IBM wanted Microsoft to develop an operating system for the PC, and the first company IBM had approached hadn't been interested.

Gates was being opportunistic -- all successful businesses are. But in this instance at least, there wasn't anything deceptive. He bought the rights to the product legally, and then did all he could to create a market for it, including building a partnership with a big, established company. Which is an extremely common and normal thing for a small business with ambitions to do.



-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

... so to adjust your analogy, let's say Beth agrees to sell you the rights to the posts for $100,000. It's a legal deal, mutually agreed to, signed, notarized. She's decided for whatever reason that she doesn't want to try to commercialize the material, but she's willing to take your money to allow you the chance to. You're taking a risk -- you're out $100,000 if you fail. But you succeed, and very well and make a killing.

Did you steal the intellectual property?



-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

[Snoozing during this thread.]

Huh? What? Someone wants to give me $100K for all of you guys? Sold, baby.

KIDDING.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

On a related topic ... I sometimes wonder how actors and actresses feel when they're cast in roles where they're supposed to be unattractive ... like the commercial where a heavy, balding man and a thin, plain-faced woman meet online and trade pictures of sexy models purporting themselves to be the ones pictured, or the movie "Dogfight" where some guys competed to see who could get a date with the ugliest woman. I'd think you have to have tremendous self- confidence to not be affected by knowing that's the kind of person an audience will believe you as.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Michael,

Ever see Kingpin? I remember watching that and wondering the same thing about the gross woman who Woody Harrelson sleeps with. For some reason my roommate and I got into this big discussion about how that might affect her self-esteem. I think maybe because he'd seen the same actress playing similar roles in other movies.

I actually have a friend who grew up in some small coaltown outside of Scranton who can't watch Kingpin because she finds those scenes so depressing... but that's a whole different story.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

All I know is, if Beth gets a hundred g, I'm asking her to marry me.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001