How much should I offer to pay for a M4?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Leica Photography : One Thread

Once again I need your good advice, I hope that I soon will be (Leica) experienced enough to give something back to this forum. If you have read my previous questions, you'd know that I am in the marked for a used Leica M w. a 50 mm (on a budget around $1200). Several offers has popped up since my first post, and I would appreciate your experienced input to make the most of them.

These are my options:

1. M2 Chrome (1961) w. Rigid Summicron 50/2 (1961). Asking price $950. Condition was announced mint, but in reality far from so. Shiny marks on top- and buttomplate and by strap holes, 2 smaller chips of vulcanite around base plate. Rusty screws on accessory shoe, hardend grease around the release button and the inside edges on filmcounter disc. Small crack in frameline window, signs of golden droplets in viewfinder. Rangefinder misaligned. Everything else is fine, shutter sounds right and clear finder, never been serviced. Lens looks clear, and cosmetically fine except for a little dirt on focus ring (has been used w. uv filter= no cleaning marks).

2. M3 chrome (1954/55) w. black Summicron 50/2 (1970). Asking price $600. Well used body, brassing by straps. Shiny marks and dent in topplate from wrong removal of Leicameter. Several chips in the vulcanite. Signs of golden droplets in finder. Modified to single stroke, depth of field rangefinder, and frameline preview lever. CLA'ed 4 years ago. Body sounds and feels fine, finder is clear and clean. Except for a missing red dot, the lens is perfect.

3. M4 chrome (1969) no lens. Seller wants me to come w. an offer. I have not seen this, but seller describes it as "shows signs of use, including use w. Leicameter, no dents, CLA'ed 1 year ago"

My prefences: The M3 is ok, but M2 or M4 is better due to my use of glasses. I'd feel better about the newer M4 but this is not critical. I like the lens w. the M3 without infinity lock.
I am thinking about buying either 1) or 2), look at 3) and if the price of the M4 is right, buy it and sell off the body from whichever of 1) or 2) I end up with. If I can't meet the expectation of the M4 seller, I'll keep either the M2 or M3.

My Question: (I hope it is not too abstract): Given the price levels of 1) and 2) what would be reasonable to offer the seller of the M4 -for this purchace to make sense?

I probably have to buy either 1) or 2) before I get the chance to see the M4, if you have an opinion on which is a more attractive offer, please comment.

(Please keep in mind that I cannot expect to sell off the body at ebay price here in Denmark, but maybe you have an idea of body/lens value ratio, eg. "if a body and lens in a given condition = X$ then the value of the lens must be around Y$" )

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), July 04, 2001

Answers

One thing that immediately pops out at me is that if you buy the M3 and lens for $600, you really are paying a fair price for the lens and getting the body for free, so why not start there, and then add the body you _really_ want whenever you find it, whatever it is? If I found an OK M3 and black Summi for $600, I'd buy it immediately, whether I wanted or needed it!

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), July 04, 2001.

I agree--$600 for a user M3 set up with lens never happens these days- -that is the best deal out of anything listed unless the person will take a ridiculously low offer on the M4-like $600.00. Its a freeing experience to shoot will a mechanically good but cosmetically challenged Leica--you'll end up using it more than a pristine example. If you don't go for the M3, maybe you could let people here know the sellers contact info annd someone else will grab it.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), July 04, 2001.

The 1970 50/2 (11817)in mint minus would be about $450 in the US, not $600. A 11819 would fetch $600. Still, that's $250 for an M3 that was serviced 4 years ago, so it's still a great buy. You want it to use, not collect, so there you've got optics 99% of the current version and a camera that's been overhauled recently.

The M2 will need a CLA at the very least and that'll bring you up to that $1200 mark. The 1961 Summicron is a great lens optically but many of them have front coating issues and you can't always see it unless you shine a penlight from the rear and play it around a bit. Even then, if it doesn't have *any* marks (considering the body isn't anywhere near mint), I'd suspect it's been polished and/or recoated and this could play havoc with the performance if it wasn't done by an expert. I'd be tempted to take a pass on the M2 outfit.

The M4 would be my body of choice. It should sell for $1000 or less, depending on just how severe the "signs of use" are, and the owner shouldn't expect to recoup the cost of the CLA, but it's a great advantage to you as a user.

In your shoes I would buy both the M3/50 outfit and the M4 (price at or under $1000), then you could sell the M3 body for about $700 and you'd have a 1-yr serviced M4 and a modern 50/2 for about $900, which would be a really good deal for a daily user outfit.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), July 04, 2001.


A third yes on the M3 combo, which needs nothing done, unless you count the chipped vulcanite, and recovering is no big deal. Determining what an M4 user body is worth in Denmark would require checking "completed auction" prices on eBay and then adjusting downward for what look like at least 25% lower than eBay prices for leicas in general where you are. In fact, if I didn't have to pay both my daughter' college bills I'd jump on a plane for Copenhagen and go shopping!....

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), July 04, 2001.

Thanks, I apologize if the question sounds too ignorant, I have a hard time deciphering the Leica prices in the completed auctions on eBay. There seem to be very great variations on both lens and body prices, probably due to the collecting community, but maybe also due to differences in quality of different generations of lenses and bodies. There are also great price variations at the Copenhagen camera shops, the M4’s I have seen sells for anything between 900 to 2000$.

The M3 seemed a great buy to me as well, but it is first time I buy a 45 years old camera.

The offers mentioned in my question, are all set by private people, not professional dealers, so the camera/lens is not accompanied by the usual 2 month exchange option or 1 year guarantee offered in the Copenhagen shops -and the price should reflect that.

I’ll go and get the M3 today. It will probably be another week before I can exsamine the M4, and by then I’ll know if I am comfortable w. the M3 finder. Thanks for your help.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), July 04, 2001.



Wow, US$ 600 for a M3 plus Summicron is a steal--grab that quickly! In Hong Kong, a user M4 body typically sells for over US$ 1,000. You'll do fine if you offer the M4 seller a starting price of, say, US$ 500 and settle somewhere inbetween that price and US$ 1,000.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 04, 2001.

Hi Niels

I'l say as many others - go for the M3 - and if not - give me the adress - I will pick it up within an hour.

Acouple of months ago I got a M3 with Sumi50f2 (1961 very near mint) and I had to pay US 1650 for it, more than I was prepered to pay but still an OK deal (for me at least) and the M3 is a joy to use!

Go get it!

Kaj

-- Kaj Froling (saluki@mail.tele.dk), July 05, 2001.


Five years ago I paid $680 for my really mongrel M2 with a good black 70's summicron, so the M3 deal you have been offered is a really winner. The lens is great.

-- Mark Wrathall (wrathall@laudaair.com), July 05, 2001.

Just to round this thread off:
I got the M3 and Summicron. Besides the slightly beat up appearance of the body, it works perfect. The lens is great too, judging from the first film, the shutter is right on as well.
I pushed the M4 seller a little to get to see the camera sooner. It sounded and looked great (except for a missing sqr. centimeter of vulcanite). It did need some minor ajustment. My initial offer was 5000 DKK (roughly 600$)and he accepted!
I appreaciate all your help, thanks.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), July 08, 2001.

Congratulations Niels on your Leica-M purchases; I'm damn jealous!!!

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), July 10, 2001.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ