Hello,

This one is for my education only. Since the question posed plays with a title purloined from a great literary mind I shall use a different great literary mind to pose the essence of my question and the difficulty I am having with it.

Muhammad Ali--the greatest--did quoth, when refering to his upcoming title bout with Liston:

I'm gonna float like a butterfly, and sting like a bee! Cause the haind cain't hit, what the eye cain't see.

My mind's eye is having trouble seeing what the big deal is about frame lines. I can understand the use of the 50 and 90 and narrower lines. But, what's up with the need for the wider angle framelines?

Isn't that why God invented the scissors?

See, if I am a lousy photographer, (and I am) and I take a wide angle picture of which I include material detrimental to the picture; doesn't the obvious solution come via surgery? In the surgical game, "A chance to cut is a chance to cure."

So how is photography any different? Enlarge then crop!

Now I have been know to fall for every trick, sight gag, ruse, deception, joke, or likewise uncertainty foisted upon myself. This must be another one I just don't get.

Where's the value in a "finder" for the 24 and wider lenses? I'd like to hear of specific uses for the 28 and 35mm frameline also.

And if the answers are that obvious I don't mind if you shout to get your point across. My spouse uses this technique to great effect.

-- David S Smith (dssmith3@rmci.net), July 01, 2001

Answers

God invented scissors, and Man defined GRAIN. Why carry multiple lenses when one will do. I want a picture of a mountain. One picture. A picture of a building in a narrow street requires four pictures, scotch tape AND SCISSORS. We like to fill the frame so our enlargements show the detail we would like. A wider angle lens changes the perspective we view from. Put a water pitcher 2 feet in front of you on a table and look at it. What can you see behind it? Now place the pitcher one foot in front of you. What do you see behind it? A 50mm lens has a diagonal view of about 45 degrees and a 90mm about 27 degrees. A 28mm lens has 76 degrees. I feel a 35mm lens is about what we see with both eyes open, and a 50 is what I see with only one eye open. I use a 28 for my scenics, which would be lousy for my smiling kids at their dance recitals on the stage. Now go shoot some pictures, and try using your lenses as scissors, frame the picture as you shoot and you will have better detail in your enlargements.

Aloha

-- Mark A. Johnson (logic@gci.net), July 01, 2001.

The real essence of different focal lengths is perspective. Not wide framing versus tight framing, although that is also an effect of different focal lengths. But rather the relationship of two objects in the frame, one behind the other. A wide lens increases the distance between the two, emphasizing one object over the other. A long lens brings the two objects closer together, blending them into a single or equal subject(s). This "compression" and "expansion" effect offered by different focal lengths is an important part of the rendering.

Let's also not forget that some people prefer slides and slide shows, rather than enlarged prints. I that case scissors are not much of an option.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), July 01, 2001.

When God invented scissors, he invented them specifically for use with 4X5 film. It's a little-known fact that the devil invented 35mm, specifically to reveal the weaknesses in our technique, including any lack of skill in cropping in the camera.

With 4X5 scissors were the traditional way for street photogs (newsmen) to turn a 127mm lens into a 350mm one, and there was more than enough quality left to do so, but when the devil gave us 35mm, he gave us a whole range of tiny lenses that fit in our pocket, including wide angles (snipping a 127mm shot into a 75mm one has always been a bit of a problem for the 4X5 set--as carpenters say, "I cut it twice and it's still too short"), but in return, he made every square mm count--lose one, you lose image quality.

Besides, there are those of us who consider cropping a sign of personal weakness--if a photo needs to be cropped, it means we really didn't know what we were doing when whe pushed the button in the first place--anything we make out of it later is just after-the-fact cheating to try to make a mistake into a picture. That's the origin of the black edge-of-film line around photos--to show that the vision was a coherent one right from the beginning.

More to the point, if you can see the sense of a good finder for 90mm, I don't get how 21mm is any different at all. It sounds like you're saying that you think it's not OK to be sloppy with a tele but with a W/A taking sloppy pix is fine. Personally, I find framing much more important with a W/A because of all the extra chances you get to include stuff you don't want in the picture (if you mess up the background with a 90, often the lack depth of field edits out the mess for you), and usually work much harder to make my W/A photos neat and to the point, so that's where I appreciate a good finder the most.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), July 01, 2001.

Another thing about the frame lines that has not been mentioned... they "float". The rangefinder already is behind the SLR as far as accurate framing, and the gap would be even more so if the viewfinder were simply an open window to view through. With the floating frame lines, the view changes as you go from infinity to the minimum focusing distance. No it is not perfect, but it does work. I used an old Summaron 35mm lens on an M3 years ago. The M3 not supporting the 35mm lens, I was forced to use the whole frame, out to the edge of the metal. It was pretty close at infinity, but since the metal frame was fixed, my close-ups suffered by quite a bit of parallax error. The elimination of the floating frame lines would turn the Leica M into just another P&S, as far as framing goes.

One additional thing I like is the ability to see outside of the frame line. When I first read about this point, I though it was so much fluff. But it is a very useful tool. You can anticipate a person entering into a frame, instantly see a better composition while viewing, and know that your "perfect shot" is about to be encroached on. I find myself panning around more with the SLR, often wishing I was using my Leica M during fast changing situations.

And lastly as has already been mentioned... scissors and slides don't get along very well. It is better to get it right during the taking stage of the process.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), July 01, 2001.

Al:

The elimination of the floating frame lines would turn the Leica M into just another P&S, as far as framing goes.

While I agree with most of what you say, when you get down to it, the M is really another P&S. One with great optics and accurate focusing [if you don't zone focus], but a P&S, none-the-less. Also, one that I like and use all of the time.

In my experience, I don't need the 35 mm lines [although your point about problems a close range is well taken]. I have used 35mm for years with my M3 [that 35mm asph is great]. I don't use the M6 with the lines because I haven't become used to the clutter in the window. Of course, I won't sell the M6 since I never sell anything. The wife considers my camera cabinet a black hole.:)

Now, I wouldn't try anything wider than 35mm without some type of finder. Then, you really have trouble with quality. Have any of you tried the Blad 40mm FLE? Very good.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), July 01, 2001.

David, Leica master Ralph Gibson said that he has used Leica rangefinder for forty years, you can read about RG's opinion on why Leica rangefinder frame line is important inRalph Gibson interview

These days, all compact camera has frame lines, though not as sophisticated as Leica M6, which has a parallax corrected frame line.

Parallax corrected frame line was invented by Walter Zapp in 1938 for the Riga Minox camera. You know, Minox is a very small camera,the frame is only 8mm x 11mm, yet, Walter Zapp not only put in a frame line, but also a parallax corrected frame line, that shows how important frame line is.

I am trained to use every bit of negative space on Minox camera, therefore seldom crop, and this practice is carried through to my 35mm and MF. That is one main reason I like use zoom lens for 35mm camera (Leica and Contax ).

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), July 01, 2001.

The franelines of the M6 are so inaccurate it doesn't matter anyhow.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), July 01, 2001.

Hi, all ! I can't help feeling it's funny how the answers to David's question show to how great an extent Leica Ms are tools easily adapted to anybody's photographic needs. In fact, the answers posted show how (frames or no frames) each of us experienced enough with the system has adapted the way the frames objectively work to the way we subjectively have learned to choose what to take in and out of our images, be it composing carefully from the very begining or resourcing to scissors later on. Good point for the Leica Ms I think . . . And the point concerning slides vs. scissors is not to be forgotten. I shoot slides and B&W but had never really noticed why I take so much work in order to frame only what I really think is meaningful in my intended images. That is why . . .

Cheers.

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), July 01, 2001.

Before the advent of APS camera, tight frame line means cropping on the fly, and no cropping later on.

APS means croping film, even if you tightly framed.

-- martin tai (martin.tai@capcanada.com), July 02, 2001.