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-- (ScoutmasterBob@PupTent.party), June 26, 2001

Answers

Our Mission Statement:

NAMBLA's goal is to end the extreme oppression of men and boys in mutually consensual relationships by:

1)-building understanding and support for such relationships; educating the general public on the benevolent nature of man/boy love; 2)-cooperating with lesbian, gay, feminist, and other liberation movements;

3)-supporting the liberation of persons of all ages from sexual prejudice and oppression.

Our membership is open to everyone sympathetic to man/boy love and personal freedom.

NAMBLA calls for the empowerment of youth in all areas, not just the sexual. We support greater economic, political and social opportunities for young people and denounce the rampant ageism that segregates and isolates them in fear and mistrust. We believe sexual feelings are a positive life force. We support the rights of youth as well as adults to choose the partners with whom they wish to share and enjoy their bodies.

We condemn sexual abuse and all forms of coercion. Freely-chosen relationships differ from unwanted sex. Present laws, which focus only on the age of the participants, ignore the quality of their relationships. We know that differences in age do not preclude mutual, loving interaction between persons. NAMBLA is strongly opposed to age-of-consent laws and all other restrictions which deny men and boys the full enjoyment of their bodies and control over their own lives.

NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts. NAMBLA does not engage in any activities that violate the law.

We call for fundamental reform of the laws regarding relations between youths and adults. Today, many thousands of men and boys are unjustly ground into the disfunctional criminal justice system. Blindly, this system condemns consensual, loving relationships between younger and older people. NAMBLA's Prisoner Program, with limited resources, works to provide a modicum of humanity to some of these people. Click here to find out more.

NAMBLA is a political, civil rights, and educational organization. We provide factual information and help educate society about the positive and beneficial nature of man/boy love. Become an active member! You can help in this historic struggle!

Copyright © NAMBLA, 1999. All rights reserved.

-- (ScoutmasterBob@sleeping_bags.for_two), June 26, 2001.

“NAMBLA does not provide encouragement, referrals or assistance for people seeking sexual contacts.”

No shit Bobby, you fooled the hell out of me. Nice disclaimer that it is, I doubt that the neighborhood rednecks will pay it much heed as they are cutting off your nuts and ramming em’ down your throat.

Your membership drives must be a real hoot!

-- Telinet (like@it.is), June 26, 2001.

I am in a bad mood. I didn't sleep well last night. There was a death in the immediate family last week. I feel like kicking up some shit. So here it is...

The ancient Greeks had ideas about sexual relationships between young men that would set almost any modern American frothing at the mouth. In fact, I expect to see a bit of said frothing or it wouldn't be worthwhile playing the devil's advocate here.

To sum it up in a nutshell, the ancient Greeks figured that young men of about "sweet" 16 were a hell of a lot better off getting involved with a young man of about 22 or 23, or even older, than to be chasing after the young ladies. Sexual congress between the young man and the older companion was definitely part of the mix.

The Greeks had some pretty clear social guidelines around such relationships that simply don't exist today. It was the responsibility of the older partner to inculcate the "manly" virtues of honor and courage, indifference to discomfort and hunger for glory into his young protege.

The sexual component of the relationship was meant to reinforce the affection of the two for one another and to reinforce the submissive role of the younger man to the guidance and wisdom of the elder (who was, after all, not very old himself). The younger man was never coerced into the partnership, but was coaxed and seduced. A really "comely" young man could have his choice of many suitors and could exercise a fair bit of power in the relationship - choosing a smitten suitor and witholding favors or trading them like any woman who chooses to dally with her admirers.

The Greeks also happen to be the culture that packed more intellectual firepower and progress into a shorter period of time than any culture in the history of the earth. They defined and then advanced every component of Western culture faster and farther than ever before, on a per capita basis. They practically invented drama, more than doubled mathematical knowledge and put it on a soound theoretical basis, invented systematic philosophy, provided the models for European poetry for the next 2000 years. And so on.

They weren't fools.

Now, granted, the Greek ideals of "man-boy love" didn't include child abuse. They set a limit on how young a man could be "introduced" like a debutante. But they had this wholly alien set of moral precepts and still managed to out-think, out-fight, out-argue and out-innovate just about every culture you would care to name.

Explantions, anyone?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 26, 2001.

I don't have any explanations for you, LN, but I'm thinking of a young girl I know who is now splitting up with the father of her child. She was 17 and HE was 38 when she became pregnant. She'll soon be 22 and the man had accepted the fatherhood role for several years before deciding he wanted to move on. He's going to give her the house they live in and pay child support and all that, but doing the math, he was 21 when she was born. He was 31 when she was 10.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Q - How do they separate the men from the boys in the Greek army?

A - With a crowbar

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 26, 2001.

Going to that site might get you a new file. Don't recommend it.

-- KoFE (your@town.USSA), June 26, 2001.

LN, I'm very sorry for your loss.

The Greeks allowed personal freedom and apparently freer access to information. Geo/politically they had to be decentralized because of the terrain and seafaring because the land was poor. Seafaring cultures usually run into other cultures and mix ideas (and genes).

Many cultures encouraged sexual relationships between older and younger males. I'm not sure that particular component of Greek society is all that important to their achievements. I can't imagine what good it could have done their society to keep women out of the camps. >;)

-- helen (not@real.address), June 27, 2001.

LN--

I too extend my condolences.

That was an interesting review of Greek behaviors of those times. I have had the same understanding.

Coupla things. You are tha master logician around here---are you saying that Greek intellectual productivity was caused by the man/boy relationships? (I am not referring to homosexuality between adults)? I doubt if that is what you would claim since that must be represent some type of logical fallacy involving cause and effect. After all, Greeks also maintained slaves at that time and no one would argue that Greek intellectual accomplishments were due to the ownership of slaves. So I guess your point is that man/boy "love" did not prevent the magnificent Greek output of that era.

A few other random thoughts: Man/boy "love" is the issue here. NAMBLA likes to talk about "consenting" relationships. What about the legal concept of Age of Consent? Boys are not men. They do not have the maturity to make such consent (likewise with girls). So man/boy "love" is really statutory rape, is it not?

You detail some of the potential advantages to a boy of having a close relationship with an adult male. Mentoring, fathering, big-brothering is crucial to the maturaturation of a boy; I couldn't agree more. Absentee fathers, whether caused by out-of-wedlock births or divorce is one of the modern social tragedies. Boys need heroes, teachers, role-models. I disagree that sexual exploitation by a man provides these things. More likely it provides permanent psychological and/or physical damage.

The "love" that NAMBLA represents is that of a pervert exploiting a weaker person for the pervert's pleasure. It is not agape love of the boy for the boy's best interest.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

Lars: "... are you saying that Greek intellectual productivity was caused by the man/boy relationships?"

Nope. Good on you, Lars. You caught on quick.

About the only reasonable argument you can apply from my little oratorical exercise is that allowing such relationships didn't actively prevent the Greeks from succeeding in those other endeavors.

Logically, you can't even conclude that Greek sexual mores did not weaken their culture, since is no way of knowing what they might have accomplished under a different set of mores. Who knows, if the Greeks had been strict Puritans, maybe they would have conquered Rome instead of the other way around?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 27, 2001.

About the only reasonable argument you can apply from my little oratorical exercise is that allowing such relationships didn't actively prevent the Greeks from succeeding in those other endeavors.

Yes, "good on me". That is why I said: "So I guess your point is that man/boy "love" did not prevent the magnificent Greek output of that era"

Where's the beef?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

Mr. Nipper sir, are you familiar with the word ‘myth’, as in Greek Myths? By definition these ‘tales’ or ‘fables’ if you wish, are nothing but fabricated parables that will never be proven. Who would expect the truth of 2400 hundred years ago to hold up to the ravages of time during the dark ages in the recordable history of man? I myself preferred the company of beautiful young females but then, I am a Republican.

-- So (cr@t.es), June 27, 2001.

2400 hundred? I'm not that damned old.

-- So (cr@t.es), June 27, 2001.

I'm so pleased to report that I have recruited 11 men to NAMBLA by way of this thread. Don't worry, I won't reveal anyone's name, but I was very surprised at who responded.

I do so anticipate the day when we will all come together; the day we will camp at the ole mill pond, giving each other baths, rubby dubby dubby; the day we make one grand daisy chain.

Opa!

-- (ScoutmasterBob@obscene.weenies), June 27, 2001.

So-crates, you look pretty damn good for your age.

L.N., very sorry for your loss. The pain does pass, though it doesn't feel like it will. It gets replaced with Fond Memories.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 27, 2001.