Independant Catholic Churches

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Due to the length of the last thread, I thought I should start a new one --

From the posts I've made in the past, a person can probably tell that I'm very ecumenical by nature and pretty progressive. But ... since by definition the Roman Catholic Church is the Church established by the authority given to St. Peter, how on Earth can you have an "independant Catholic Church"?

Catholic means universal. I believe that there are trully faithful people in each denomination but we, as Catholics, should be doing all that we can to educate and evangalize -- not seperate.

I'm sorry, but the last thing that we need is mini-reformations.

And for the life of me, I can not understand the backlash against Vatican II. Authority was given to St. Peter and his successors to keep the Church alive and functioning through changing times.

God bless.

-- john placette (johnplacette@yahoo.com), June 26, 2001

Answers

Dear John Placette--
You're right to ask the question. If we take a chance and dispute with some one the incongruous notion of an ''independent'' yet Catholic Church, the reaction will surely be negative. That cuts off any useful discussion. Notice that when the young lady said she was ''looking for an independent Catholic church,'' and asked for adivice, immediately a number of posts followed encouraging her. One or two made charges against the mother Church; and their need to separate from her. To have made objections in the face of such bias would have turned the thread into a very painful discussion.

Instead of going counter to the flow, I suggested to Gina (was that her name?) -- that she make a decision based on the eternal characteristics of the Church; and not become involved with a merely temporal organisation. Very quickly the reply came, saying yes; because holy orders were valid in these ''independent'' branches we could be assured Christ would be with them to the end. This despite their differences with our Holy Father.

I have to disagree with these people. But I wanted to remain outside the controversy, in order that Gina should not take it she was being mistreated by Catholics. She yet may remain in communion with our Catholic Church. I hope so, but I'm apprehensive of the intense competition these days for the many people just like her, willing to listen to every false doctrine. Even full-blown lies against the Catholic Church. Our society's worship of liberty and equality has resulted in millions of young people particularly --who will do anything but conform. It's sad sometimes.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 27, 2001.


Eugene, Very well said. Thank you!! God Bless.

-- john placette (johnplacette@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.

Dear John,
Objectively speaking, I am no authority on the end times, so-called. The Church will most certainly be there to greet Christ on His return. No one can say what other Christian denominations will have survived to the end. Most non-Catholics take it as a given that they will be there, faithful to the end.

I should hope so. But, Christ warned us that false prophets had to come. They come to mislead the faithful; and have already made great inroads.

What will remain of the original faith of the Apostles at the new Advent of Christ almost certainly will exist within His own Church, the Catholic Church and the Holy See. He promised that the ''Gates of Hell'' would not prevail against her. (Matt, 16:18)

Many ''independent Catholics'' may have descended into total error and corrupted by the Antichrist in those days; because they will have lacked the protection of Peter's successor the Pope. The strict guidance of the Church is necessary enough in good times. But when Antichrist is at his most powerful, all ''little'' Christian denominations will either flock back to Rome, or be annihilated. You don't have to be a prophet to realize this; since Christ has already told us:

''Brother will hand over brother to death, and the father his child; children will rise up against parents and put them to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake; but he who has persevered to the end will be saved.'' (Mark 13:12)

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), June 28, 2001.




-- (_@_._), July 04, 2001.

Brothers,

I would agree that the catholic church in its truest essence is the church that Christ ordained, but let us not forget that for the first 400 years of Christianity there were 5 Apostolic See's. Two of which are credited to both Peter and Paul which are Byzantine (Constantinople) and Rome. Let us also forget that through the middle ages the throne of Peter was a posession gained by murder, inheritence and deciet not by Apostolic appointment. We (all denominations) have much to regret in our history, but let us not forget that Christ came to institue a way of life not a denomination. The body of Christ is not Roman, nor Greek, nor Independent, but rather catholic meaning universal. The work catholic was first used by St. Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch on his way to Rome where he was killed for his belief in Christ. If we believe in the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed in which we talk of One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic church then we believe that we are all one. Therefore the Pope is the head of the Roman church and the See of Constantinople is the head of the Orthodox church and Christ is the head of all of the church. We all are brothers and as St. Ignatius also said, "In the essentials let us have unity, in the non- essentials let us have diversity, but in all things let us have charity". Share the love of God with one another for that is what Christ called us to do.

Yours in Christ,

Fr. Todd +

-- Fr. Todd Bell (stmatthias01@hotmail.com), August 24, 2001.



Jmj

Hello, Fr. Todd.
Could you please tell us the name of the church or ecclesial community to which you belong? I know that the title, "Father," is used by Catholics, the Anglican communion, the Orthodox churches, and certain other schismatic bodies.

I will be somewhat concerned if you say that you are a Catholic priest (i.e., what you would call a "Roman") -- because you have made some statements that I believe are not accurate. If you are a Catholic priest, could you please mention the name of your (arch)diocese?

Since you will be replying, Father, could you also please list the name(s) of the pope(s) who "gained" the "throne of Peter" by "murder" .. and the name(s) of the pope(s) who acceded by "inheritance" from their fathers, without being elected?

Oh, never mind, "Father." The Holy Spirit just gave me the idea to see if I could "find" you -- and, man, I did find you. I would really rather not hear back from you, sir, because you are not a Catholic priest in good standing, though you pretended to be one here by failing to identify yourself fully from the start.

I see that, at the Internet site of your deceptively named "St. Matthias Catholic Church" (in Rockwall, Texas), you are a married "cradle episcopalian" "rector" who now works in something called the "Diocese of the West" within the tiny [three parishes] and schismatic "Old Catholic Church of Antioch."
It made me sad to read a page put together by your "bishop." How unfortunate that he is ostensibly a ninth-generation successor of Bishop Carlos Duarte-Costa, who in 1945 decided to be grossly disobedient to the Pope and to establish the "Catholic Apostolic Church" in Brazil, to illicitly ordain bishops, etc..

"Father," may God have mercy on you and your "bishop." We will pray for you to become true Catholics one day.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 24, 2001.


--Whoever you are Sir,
You've shown an uncommon color here. A ''Father'' who apparently believes the Holy Spirit is prone to glaring omissions. There certainly have been some unworthy Popes in the past. That did not make the chair of Peter in any way deficient. The Catholic Church is not the only See, and never was. But Peter and his successors are raised up by the Holy Spirit as the legitimate Vicars of Christ on earth. The other bishops in or out of the Latin Rite, are in communion with Holy Mother Church precisely as much as they recognize and acknowledge Peter and his successor for their Primate.

Since John Paul II goes to great pains to overcome the age-old animosities between Christians of the different churches, I must try to measure my words with you. I can't allow myself give you any distress. I will only say, NO-- you're mistaken if you say all churches of diverse persuasions which believe in Christ, by aggregation are His Universal Church. Some may be truly Christian, and excel in bringing souls to salvation. Who are we to say? We definitely know that some are heretical to the core. Yet, they claim to love Jesus. All the while condemning ''Rome''.

The Holy Catholic Church is the One Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church. She is founded as the single Church, and all other Christian churches had their origins in her. Even the ancient heretical sects that emerged in the first days of her existence, only to be ostracized.

She remains the Catholic, or universal Church. The Mystical Body of Christ is comprised of her faithful living and dead. The FAITHFUL within those sects separate from her are in the Mystical Body only inasmuch as their Baptism, Faith, Hope and Charity can bring them individually. Not through apostolic succession.

The Body of Christ doesn't cast them off for their disloyalty to the Pope , or because they belong to a denomination separate from Catholicism. But life in the Mystical Body of Christ presupposes a faith in the Creed of the Apostles, and the living faith of Jesus Christ's Church. The less of these prerequisites a ''faithful'' Christian embraces, the greater the distance between his soul and Christ's Mystical Body.

I would ask you to reconsider your words:

We (all denominations) have much to regret in our history, but let us not forget that Christ came to institue a way of life not a denomination.

Pardon, Sir. Jesus Christ will accept nearly ANY ''way of life'', as long as it leads to repentence of sin. He BUILT a CHURCH, He didn't institute a way of life. He is the Life; His Church is founded on Rock-- Peter. It never has been and can't be a denomination.

What you may be trying to say is that we must LOVE one another. That is Jesus' commandment. And how can I argue with you about that? But even for love, we shouldn't paper over the method by which His Holy Gospel has reached humanity. It is first and foremost in His Holy Church. When it comes to the preaching in truth --of the Holy Gospel, our Church is where we'll find it.
God bless you, Todd.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 24, 2001.


John and Eugene, I am so glad this Roman Catholic forum has you guys on it! Todds false statements were picked up right away! I think someone like Todd could be more dangerous, because he said he was Father Todd! I would think Todd is even a little suprised of how he was exposed for what he is! Shame on you Todd! David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), August 24, 2001.

Todd,

I would like to strongly suggest you change the name of your church. To include the name Catholic is a gross misrepresentation of your beliefs. Should I ever visit your town over a weekend, and attend "Mass" in your church, I would be extremely upset to learn the true base of your religion.

Please do not attempt to fool practicing Catholics into attending your church.

Thank you.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), August 24, 2001.


David, and Glenn--
This visitor to the forum is clearly a good man. He can't be blamed for giving his name as ''Father'', since in his own church that's his name. In his approach to our group, a slight subterfuge was used; he may have figured he would meet with a little tolerance from us by appealing to our better nature. It didn't hurt, he had to think, to play the part of a priest for this time around.

With his open scorn for the Papacy, though, he became all too transparent. His is the common denominator of all ''pretend churches''. Before they can reach 100% legitimacy, they must keep us from believing in the Pope. I mean, of course, the legitimacy of his primacy in the Universal Church. (We can't dare say ''believing in a Pope'' because it plays into their hands. They want to show how the Pope is taking Christ's place in our faith; a complete lie.)

But in fact, an important role of the Pope-- and of Saint Peter from the beginning-- is just THAT-- He is the sign by which all the world cannot fail to see --WHICH is the true Church of Jesus. He is the stronghold of Jesus' Church in the world. THE ROCK. Look for Peter, that's where Jesus permanently gives us His Church!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 25, 2001.



Jmj

Yes, Gene, my complaint was not so much Todd's use of the title, "Father," as his unfair failure to identify the name of the "church" to which he belongs.
I don't know if you noticed that I referred to him as being "not a Catholic priest in good standing." The reason I used those particular words is the fact that he MAY have been validly ordained as a Catholic priest! The man he calls his "bishop" was "ordained" by a man who was "ordained" by a man who was "ordained" [etc., through nine generations] by a genuine Catholic bishop in Brazil. (That confused man excommunicated himself in the 1940s and started his own denomination.) Now, because of apostolic succession, if all the subsequent priestly and episcopal ordinations were valid (using proper "form," "matter," and intention), then Todd is a priest -- though not "in good standing" with the Holy See.

It is a very tricky business (one in which we cannot engage) to determine whether or not all the priestly and episcopal ordinations (from the 1940s to the present) were valid. Only the Vatican could say, and maybe not even the Curia would arrive at a decision with certainty. When the day comes that Todd and his "bishop" realize that they need to submit to the authority of the successor of St. Peter, and if the two men should seek to be recognized as valid priests, it is very likely that the pope would require that they undergo "conditional ordinations" to the priesthood. That is what happened with the former Anglican bishop of London, Graham Leonard, who became a convert several years ago. He is still a priest, not having been made a bishop by the pope.

St. James, pray for us. John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 25, 2001.


Todd, I do understand that you are a good man, and that you are called Father, but maybe you should of made it clear up front that their is some differences about your beliefs and the Catholics on this board! You did jump right in and give your beliefs on something, that you know is not in good standing with our beliefs! I am sure you do some wonderful work! God Bless you! David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), August 25, 2001.

I to am a Priest, but not in communion with Rome. Our church has similar roots to Fr. Todds. Since this is an old thread I don't know if anyone will see it - but here goes. Our Church does acknowledge the Bishop of Rome, and upholds and honers its traditions. We differ from Rome in many respects. I, for one, have never claimed to be a Roman Catholic priest - nor do I know anyone in our small society who does. We exist to provide a community for the outcasts: The divorced, users of birth control and gay people. We do not disagree with Rome that these things are sinful - we do strongly disagree that any sinner in repentance and love should be turned away from God's table. Our sucession through Bs. Duarte is valid, but irregular. Our worship is inclusive. I respect and love the Roman Church, as the parent that gave the Catholic faith life. Our mission is different and our flock no less in need of Cristian love for their sins. We serve the same master, Jesus, in different houses.

www.stfechins.org

-- Fr. Mark Smith (revsmith@stfechins.org), April 22, 2004.


Dear Fr. Mark Smith, I know that whatever I say will not dissuade you from your religion, the same as whatever you say will dissuade me from mine. But I know that the Roman Catholic Church does NOT turn sinners away from God's table. We are all sinners, even our Holy Father. But if we are truly sorry, ask for forgiveness, and repent, then God extends his infinite mercy to us. This includes divorcees, birth control users, and gays. There is no sin that can't be forgiven. Nothing is out of God's power. What do you mean by "Our sucession through Bs. Duarte is valid"? Do you mean that your succession was through the Roman Catholic Church before he started his own?

Peace, Cameron

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 13, 2004.


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