Or so we should believe according to the perpetual alarmists. Having been absent from the forum, I spent some time catching up on recent events. This includes the recent threads on another forum.

In reading the bombast around Senor Milne's temporary shunning, I found an interesting theme. Apparently, some individuals feel western civilization is on the verge of collapse. This is hardly a surprise. It is difficult to find an era of human history where someone did not feel they lived in the "end times." Martin Luther thought the sitting Pope was the antichrist.

The history of apocalypticism is rich.

Link

What I find particuarly intriguing is the sense of inclusion. It is as if the apocalyptics are a member of a priviliged group possessing the ultimate "inside" information. The pyschological pull of this belief system is undeniable. Apocalypticism continues to reappear, despite the perfect failure rate of predicting the end of the world.

-- Jose Ortega y Gasset (j_ortega_y_gasset@hotmail.com), June 19, 2001

Answers

A personal apocalypse can be any negative, life-changing event. Once you've had one or more of those, you may be more willing to believe it can happen again. Other people who have had similar experiences are willing to believe you, and you in turn are willing to believe them. "Inside" information is the result of having something bad happen that appears unbelievable by your friends and neighbors and sometimes family members. It is very hard to convince anyone run over by a government agency that it didn't happen, couldn't happen, or won't happen again.

-- helen (a@r.y), June 19, 2001.

Hence the main reason for the existence of the Y2K doomer crowd.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 19, 2001.

So, when does the party start? Is it BYOB? Should we eat first or will there be munchies served?

Damn people!!! Planning is everything.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 19, 2001.

Buddy, possibly. We used to have a cop out near the state border who liked to sexually assault young guys. If he'd gotten to you, it might have been a personal apocalypse and made a doomer of you too. I met him once, very cordial -- to women.

-- helen (doom@ten.o.clock), June 19, 2001.

*** or Jose as you prefer:

There was an ol'saying. There are those who do and those who teach. The new saying is that there are those who do and those who Whine. You are talking about the whiners.

The children who post here [this excludes the regulars who I know] get upset when I tell them the truth. I am into doing things. In the last month, I have met with 3 congressmen/women, a senator and members of parliment in three asian countries. That is doing something and not whining.

Folks if you want to change things; get out there and do it. Quit whining. Makes no difference what you want done; it won't get done if you just whine. But then it is hard to do something if you are still in high school. *<)))

Best Wishes and off again,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), June 19, 2001.

The anthropic principle suggests that there are no observers to disscuss the end of the world in those parallel universes where it actually happened. Sort of like beings who ask how far it is from their planet to their sun getting a narrow range of answers compared to the range of distances for arbitrary planets to their sun.

-- dandelion (golden@pleurisy.plant), June 19, 2001.

Helen, I can understand why instances such as you've mentioned would turn someone "doomer". But by the same token, I know a world of people (OK, slight exaggeration there) who've taken those kinds of events and become the most amazing "pollies".

Their outlook is, "I survived THAT; I can survive ANYTHING." They don't see it as "the end times"; they see it as "the beginning times" -- for themselves.

Just a different POV, I suppose.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 19, 2001.

I agree somewhat, Senorita Helen, but the term apocalypse really does not apply to a personal event. History provides ample evidence that governments can torture, maim and kill people. I imagine the vast majority of the victims had family, friends and neighbors. It is an unfortunate fact of existence that bad things happen. I regret that some of us are indeed doomed, through chance or nature's changing course untrimmed. Most of us, however, will live to ripe old age despite the dire predictions of a minority.

I wish you the best of luck in changing the world, Z. I hope history remembers you favorably. Most of us, however, will tread this mortal coil without leaving many traces of our passage. Perhaps it is enough to live a decent life.

-- Jose Ortega y Gasset (j_ortega_y_gasset@hotmail.com), June 19, 2001.

Most everyone has a little "Doomer" streak Jose. The few that don't we lose under under the wheels of trucks while jaywalking with a book in their face.

Y2K was a magnet for Doomers of every stripe. The crowd you describe I'd call lifer Doomers. They need doom and refuse to do without it. They and the relig nuts are pretty much out of this forum and certainly for the best. They'll do better and be happier in their own company and the rest of us more itinerant Doomers don't miss the baggage they bring.

Right now I'm kinda doomy about two things. Telecom stocks ain't coming back for a long time and then there's that damned mouse the cat brought in last week and whines incessantly about because she can't find. Bout ready to find the damned mouse myself just so she'll shut up.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 19, 2001.

Think Sid Vicious here:

And now, the end is near And so I face the final curtain. My friend, I'll say it clear I'll state my case, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full. I've traveled each and ev'ry highway But more, much more than this I did it my way.

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 19, 2001.

I thought that was Frank Sinatra :-) (That was also kind of the theme song for that movie, "The End". Hilarious.)

Carlos, I hear what you're saying (about "doomers", not "cat and mouse"). IIRC, that was one of the points we all discussed when we "came together" on TB2KUS; the propensity for "doom" of some people. Nothing will ever change the minds of those who see a conspiracy in everything. It's like people who live by the Crisis of the Moment. They know no other way to deal with Life except to define it by each crisis (whether real or imagined) that comes their way.

Re the "itinerant" doomer (LOL) -- I think a little of that resides in most people. The degrees of "doomerism" can probably be defined by how one deals with the feelings of doom and related hopelessness, etc.

Don't go there on the the telecom stocks; I work for one of them and I'm NOT a happy camper.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 19, 2001.

Good song quote, cin. I always liked that it meant more coming from Sid than Frank, even though it was originally written for Frank.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.

(I meant that, no sarcasm (and why should I have to make that clear?))

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.

Bemused,

Hae you seen this documentary?

http://www.filthandfury.com/

-- flora (***@__._), June 20, 2001.

The end is near?

Yes! Of course it is! I keep it near me at all times.

You were referring to my rear end, right?

-- Break out the cookies and milk (aimless@national_raffle_association.org), June 20, 2001.

"Perhaps it is enough to live a decent life."

Nicely said Jose.

Sometimes I think the smallest marks can produce the most far reaching results,just those simple acts of kindness,to the people who cross our paths in unlikely ways everyday.

Carlos,

You're right, that's a whole lot of baggage to carry around.It's one thing to have it for a defined period of time, it's quite another to have it be a way of life.No thanks.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 20, 2001.

Apocalypse is an appropriate word -- if something really, really bad has happened to you, that's the way it feels. Part of being a doomer is learning to take control over as many aspects of your personal life as you can before something else does it for you BECAUSE something already has one or more times in your life. It can be something like having to stand in line for over an hour for drinking water after a hurricane or an earthquake. It doesn't have to involve confrontations with authority figures, although it could.

The coolest thing I learned from hanging with doomers was that survival didn't hinge on the amount of rice I had stored. It was what I had stored in my head.

-- helen (doom@nd.gloomer), June 20, 2001.

... survival didn't hinge on the amount of rice I had stored. It was what I had stored in my head. -- helen (doom@nd.gloomer), June 20, 2001.

Rice?

KIDDING, Helen...

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.

Most of us, however, will tread this mortal coil without leaving many traces of our passage.

Jose, you could always start an obscure internet forum with your name on it.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 20, 2001.

The coolest thing I learned from hanging with doomers was that survival didn't hinge on the amount of rice I had stored. It was what I had stored in my head.

Helen, funny you should note that. That's what I kept trying to get across on that forum and the doomers kept coming back with, "No, you need to stock up!". I didn't think anybody would be able to get that out of the doomer ranting. I remember one thread that discussed sun burns and how to treat them without OTC ointments. My post on using a wet cloth met with scorn.

Jose, someday, these believers will be right. The world *will* end, just not tomorrow. Hardliner didn't like it when I stated that "If, and it doesn't matter if it's a big if or a little if, the sun doesn't come up tomorrow, the world will end as we know it." He wrote this was "talking garbage". Too funny!

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 20, 2001.

Forgive me, Helen, but control is mostly an illusion. Yes, one can act to minimize risk. At one point, however, does this become more "totem-making" than rational risk reduction? I believe this issue was discussed during the Y2K debate. Typical "survival" preparations are really designed to allow an individual or family to weather a modest disruption of basic services without undue discomfort. There are no adequate preparations for the end of civilization. No amount of stored rice or stockpiled ammunition will ensure one's survival in this situation.

Apocalypticism is alive and well. To me, this movement is not based on individual misfortunes, but fear of an increasingly complex and fast-moving culture. A natural response for some is to wish for a simpler, slower time. The apocalyptic vision provides an answer. Times will change, and soon.

There is also a puritanical flavor in apocalypticism. Often, the end of civilization results in the punishment of the wicked. The doomsayers are "saved" because of their prescience. The new society also move the doomsayers into positions of authority and leadership. I imagine some of the doomsayers are less than content with their current station in life. The apocalypse offers a great reordering where the truly wise will lead, and the truly wicked will perish.

Finally, impending doom makes life much more interesting. The near term apocalypse focuses one, makes one's actions and decisions far more important. It is the inevitable adrenaline rush of danger.

-- Jose Ortega y Gasset (j_ortega_y_gasset@hotmail.com), June 20, 2001.

Bemused, you were far gentler than you had to be. :)

Maria, long ago I started convincing the little ones that the cure for most of their ills was a cool, wet washcloth. They were "self medicating" by the age of two. I wish I could make them believe as strongly in the value of vegetables.

Jose, the person who probably had the greatest impact on how I thought about trying to survive a y2k collapse was Ken Decker. His (hijacked) post about the dangers of a fixed-position defense described perfectly the problem we would have had trying to hold this (hot, humid, tick infested, parasite heaven) farm of ours. We had concerns about being overrun by looters, etc. After thinking about Ken's post, we ended up concentrating on gathering resources for the community instead of trying to hole up. Not one damn thing happened around here due to rollover problems. Other than having more rice than any human would wish to consume in ten years, we hadn't made unnecessary changes.

No one in his right mind would want to handpump and haul all the water a farm needs, especially in the heat of summer. Trust me. When I think of "the good old days", I remember what we went through last summer when the electric well pump went out for several days. There's no way we would voluntarily return to a more primitive way of life than we already have. It's bad enough having to watch out for bloodsucking, diseased insects all the time without adding handwashing to the list.

If an asteroid strike seems likely, we'll sit outside and watch it come in. :)

-- helen longs for airconditioning, automatic ice makers, and cable tv... (hot@nd.humid), June 20, 2001.

Psssst...Helen

I'm 99% sure that "Jose Ortega y Gasset" is Ken Decker.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 20, 2001.

Jose, the person who probably had the greatest impact on how I thought about trying to survive a y2k collapse was Ken Decker...

"Jose" is probably pretty flattered by this, heh.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.

Buddy beat me to the punch.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.

Well, this is from Italy News 06/20/2001:

Enchantress Sold Places in Paradise via Internet

Police have charged Franca Onofri of Teramo with fraud after it was discovered that the woman was selling reserved places in paradise for the day of the last judgment. The woman, who has been placed under house-arrest, was charging 15 million lire for such a reservation through ads she placed on the internet. A young man from Ragusa, Sicily, fell into her trap, but his parents alerted the police about the internet enchantress who presented herself onscreen wrapped in a blue cloak asking to be addressed as "Your Majesty". Police officers removed all paraphernalia from the woman's residence that assisted in the swindle, including ritual materials, potions, a computer and modem.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), June 20, 2001.

You make an important point, Helen. The idea of country living is usually more attractive than the reality. I imagine many doomsayers have not had your experience with rural living, and how difficult life becomes without the benefits of modern technology.

And you flatter me, Buddy and Bemused, by your speculation. I am delighted when my work is read, let alone the authorship considered. Muchas gracias.

-- Jose Ortega y Gasset (j_ortega_y_gasset@hotmail.com), June 20, 2001.

Er...I already thanked Ken, so it doesn't matter if I thank him again.

I remember the cusp! We were looking at boxes of ammo. My husband said we should get some. The boxes we were looking at held 500 rounds apiece. My husband said we should probably get more than one. I said if we needed even one, didn't that mean we were f****d anyway? He said it probably did. That's when we decided to open the door to anyone who needed help. We didn't believe we could survive a "toast" situation, and it was relaxing not to even try for that.

-- helen (got@rice.still), June 20, 2001.

How much is 15 million Lira in real money?

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 21, 2001.

How much is 15 million Lira in real money?

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 21, 2001.

It's enough.

We always consider ourselves on top of the world. When I was in Italy, I found a few things out.

O.K., I'll spill: Italian women are God's gift to mankind. I'm not kidding. I'm really not kidding.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 21, 2001.

Carlos,

About 6.6 million U.S

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 21, 2001.

Helen, I'm surprised to "hear you say" that. Your opinion (if you wrote this on the old forum) must have been beaten down.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 21, 2001.

Italian women are God's gift to mankind. Spanish women are far better than man deserves.

-- Jose Ortega y Gasset (j_ortega_y_gasset@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

Maria,

helen is pretty unbeatable. She had a great post which endeared her to me at one time, regarding feeding her neighbors. Another poster made some remark about helen's safety, and becoming a target herself in such a scenario. She wrote something to the effect that if someone did shoot her as she was taking food to her neighbor, she hoped they'd be a crack shot.

-- flora (***@__._), June 21, 2001.

helen's definately cool. ( How's Grace doin?)

As for Bemused, well, don't suppose we certifiable bacchanals could reschedule our next gettogether for, say, Rome maybe.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 21, 2001.

"she hoped they'd be a crack shot" Given that scenario, I couldn't agree more.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 21, 2001.