Brethren:

Something has happened to the original thread entitled “Calvinism Perverts the Gospel of Christ” and I do not have the time to retyp all that I had put in there but I have just started another thred by the same title so that I can keep my promise to Maria to answer her post. If anyone knows how to recover the thread please help me to do it or send me an e-mail about how to do so. Maybe Duane Can help explain what has happened to it. I think that I did something to it but I am not sure just how I did it! Anyway, if any of you can help me with this problem please let me know.

I now respond in this thread to Maria, for she has indeed been impatient for me to do so and has been moving her post around so as to “save me time” in responding to it. But I now respond to all that see said in her post which I pasted in full from the tread entitled “An old discussion on Baptism Continued”. My response now follows:

Maria:

You have said:

“Mr. Saffold, This post from the other thread will save time.”

Nothing really saves time, Maria, but the efficient use of it. I appreciate your efforts to “save time” but time would be more efficiently used if you and others would use some of your time in responding to actually pay some attention to the arguments made contrary to your doctrines which are false to their very core.

Then you say:

“You are at least consistent in your message, methods, and delivery.”

Indeed, I am consistent in those things and that is a no doubt a virtue not shared by those who teach doctrine contrary to the doctrine of Christ. For they are ever inconsistent in what they say and do and you will prove to be no exception to that very definite and certain rule. For the doctrine of Calvinism is pathetically inconsistent with not only the word of God but itself as well.

Then you say:

“ Your last post(s) in response to mine (are) was very long and repeated most of the arguments you have stated earlier.”

Indeed my last post was long as most of them are and there is just nothing in the world you can do about that now is there? And indeed I repeated most of the arguments that I stated before because you had repeated all of the arguments made by those who teach the false doctrine of salvation by faith only and thus you should not have been surprised that the response was the same. Especially is this true when you have failed to even begin to discuss those arguments, many of which you did nothing more than ignore. I do not apologize for repeating the truth especially when those who teach lies insist upon repeating those lies. SO that should not have been a problem for you in the least. It is not serious problem for our most of our readers. They are, like me, waiting for you and others to make some attempt to respond to those ignored arguments.

Then you say:

“ It also failed to address those issues and biblical teachings your position can not account for.”

Now that is just a deliberate lie. For I responded to every word that you had said as is my habit to do and every one in this forum knows it. If you would try to respond to my every word as I did in response to your post I would not be able to say that you ignored so much of what we have said. But for you to say that I failed to “address” those issues that you claimed were biblical teachings in you last post is just ridiculous. For every one knows that when I respond to someone’s post it is indeed my habit to respond to every single word that they say. So, I addressed everything that you brought up. Now you may not have been satisfied with the response that I gave and that is your right but to claim falsely that I did not address what you said is just a lie. And Christian people do not lie, Maria.

Then you say:

“I did not call you a Pharisee. I suggested you keep your response brief.”

I did not say that you did call me a Pharisee. I said that you compared, unjustly, my lengthy post to the lengthy prayers of the Pharisees and that is exactly what you did and you were unjust and completely wrong in doing so. For just because something is lengthy does not infer that it is insincere as you implied. And we correctly pointed out to you that you could not make the comparison that you made without knowing our hearts, which you do not know.

Then you said:

“ Your arguments do no gain anything in either accuracy or persuasiveness by such a long discourse.”

None, Least of all me, contends that the length of a post alone ensures accuracy. But its length does not make it lacking in accuracy either. But you have failed miserably to demonstrate any inaccuracies in those lengthy posts. As far as how persuasive they are that is not really for us to determine. We will leave that to our readers. But if you could read the e-mails that I receive concerning those lengthy posts you would not make such ignorant statements about how persuasive they have been. You surely have not done anything near a scientific study or taken a scientific poll to prove that they are not persuasive, now have you? So, how would you know how whether they are persuasive to others or not? But our objective is to teach the truth and if our readers are not persuaded by our efforts we have at least done what we know how to do with our limited time and talents.

But how long I write and what I say is my business and how you perceive it is yours. I will mind my business and there is nothing you can do that would cause me to change my approach in the least because you see that is none of your business, now is it?

Then you say:

“ In that sense, we will not hear you better for your much speaking.”

Well you can speak for yourself and possibly those who support your false doctrine but you cannot speak for every one in this forum, now can you? And we have not said, nor have we ever thought that people would hear us because our posts are long. But we have seen that it is a fact that they will not necessarily refuse to hear us because they are long as you falsely claim. In fact, we have had a good measure of success with this approach that you know nothing about.

Then you say:

“I think we almost agree on the central importance of faith, and the necessity of living out that faith through a life that demonstrates our faith by works of obedience.”

Now, you can rest assured that we are not even remotely close to agreement on this matter. We believe firmly in the central importance of faith. And we believe along with James that faith that does not have works is dead and lifeless and that no one will be justified by “faith alone” for James makes it abundantly clear, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ONLY”. (James 2:24). In fact, faith without works is actually no faith at all. It is nothing, it is barren, it is dead, it is useless and faith that is alone will not save. SO, let us be honest and clear with one another. We are in full agreement with the doctrine of Christ as taught by both Paul and James and you, Maria, do not even remotely agree with Paul, James or us. For James says, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only”. And Paul says, “And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but to them that WALK in the STEPS of the faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” (Romans 4:12). They both agree that it was not faith alone nor works alone but “faith wrought with works” and “walking in the steps” of the faith of our father Abraham rather than merely giving ascent to or mental acceptance of the truths believed by our father Abraham about God.

Then you say:

“ Where I think we clearly have a disagreement is in our understanding of where true faith comes from, and at what point a child of God is saved.”

Indeed we disagree very much about this. And we disagree far more than you would like for our readers to realize. But when you begin to be more open and expressive of your genuine false doctrines of Calvinism they will be able to see our disagreement far more clearly.

Then you said:

“I asked you to read several passages, including Romans 3, 4 & 9; and Gal. 5. Did you do that? They address quite directly the issues we disagree about.”

If you had bothered to read my last post you would not have asked that question. But, because you ask I must again repeat myself. We read those passages, Maria, long before we ever knew that you existed. And not a single one of them teaches that we are saved by “faith only” as you falsely attempt to teach. In fact, you will not find “salvation by faith only” mentioned in any of them.

Then you say:

“In Rom. 3 it is clear that no form of obedience earns forgiveness, but sinners "are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus...through faith in his blood" and God "justifies those who have faith in Jesus."”

No one has said anything about “earning salvation” with or without obedience. That is a straw man that you have built which any one can tear down. We have never once said anything about “earning salvation”. Because salvation from sin is not something that can be earned even by “faith only”. It is not an “earned” thing by any means and you must be arguing with someone else for we have never said that we “earn our salvation” as a man earns his wages so as to put God in his debt. But we have shown from the scriptures that faith in God includes the works or obedience to God, which makes that faith “perfect” or “complete”. And that any faith that does not include those works or acts of obedience to God which proceeds from and is actuated by faith is a dead and lifeless faith because it is alone and not accompanied by the “obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26). And it does not follow the “law (or principal) of faith” that inculcates obedience as a vital part of that which perfects, completes and makes it active, alive and filled with the power to save. For that reason God has required that the faith which brings salvation must be one that leads man to cease and abandon his rebellion against God. By moving him to surrender completely to God turning to him in humble acts of obedience to God’s conditions of pardon from our sins such as repentance, confession and baptism (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Mark 16:16; Heb. 5:8,9) proceeding from a deep, abiding, trusting faith in God.

Indeed we are justified freely by his grace. But the idea that because He has determined to offer that grace only to those who obey the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 1 Peter 16:16-18; 2 Thess. 1;8,9; Heb. 5:8,9; Mark 16:16; 1 Cor. 1:18;) does not prevent it from being offered “freely”. If a governor decides to pardon a man who is condemned to death if he will simply write an apology to his victims and agree to never commit the crime again. The meeting of those conditions does not earn him the “right to a pardon” which is offered freely to him. But any effort to refuse to meet those conditions justifies the governor in deciding that the man has not yet ended his rebellion against a just society and is therefore, by his sovereignty as governor justified in denying his pardon.

In the same way, God has freely offered pardon to all men upon the condition that thy will end their rebellion against him. And for that reason he requires obedience to the gospel. That is why we are commanded to Believe (John 3:16; Mark 16:16) “repent” (Acts 3:19, Confess Christ as the Son of God (Romans 10:9,10), And be baptized (Acts 2:38; Mark 16; 16; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-6,16-17; Col. 2:11-13; Titus 3:3-5; Matthew 28:19, 20; Heb. 10:22; Eph. 5:25,26; Gal. 3:26, 27) Acts 8:35-40).

Then you say:

“ And boasting is excluded. "On what principle? On that of observing the law?" (obedience as a precondition for forgiveness and salvation) "No, but on faith.”

No one has even pretended, except you, that obedience to the gospel of Christ by faith in Christ would give anyone a reason or justification for boasting. And if you would look closely you would see that Paul was contrasting the nature of the two LAWS, the law of works and the Law of faith. For the passage reads as follows:

“Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of LAW? OF works? Nay, but by a LAW OF FAITH”. By the law of works man trusted in his own accomplishments and the righteousness was man’s righteousness so he might glory in himself but by the law of faith man trust in God and to God is given the glory. Thus by the Law of faith man’s glorying in himself is excluded. The Jews had been given the Law of works when they had been given the “Law of Moses” because they were without faith and a law of faith would have had no effect. For that Law was given “because of transgressions” as a “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ. They were forced to keep the law. One cannot be forced to believe but he can be forced to act. In fact, when force or coercion of any kind are used in Christianity there is a grave danger of making it a law of works instead of a law of faith.

Paul was clearly showing the contrasting nature of the Law of works and the Law of faith. Some have therefore falsely reached the conclusion that the law of works has been replaced by faith without a law. But that is not the truth for Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “TO them that are without law, as without law, not being with out law to God, but UNDER LAW TO CHRIST.” (1 Cor. 9:21). Thus it is clear that Christians are under Law. It is called the “law of faith” (Romans 3:27). It is called the “law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus”. (Romans 8:2) It is called the Law of liberty (James 1:25). And it is called the “Law of Christ”. (Gal. 6:2). And Paul tells us in his letter to Titus the following:

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11,12).

So there is nothing in the fact that God has sent his grace to us through the life, death and resurrection of his Son that in any way precludes us from obeying the gospel by which we are saved. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Peter 4:16-18) and if we refuse to obey we will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of his power (2 Thess. 1:8,9). And it does not in the least change the simple fact that Christ is the “author of eternal salvation to all them that OBEY HIM. (Heb. 5:8,9). And there is absolutely nothing incompatible with faith and obedience. For we are also told by the same apostle Paul of the “obedience of faith”. (Romans 16:26). So you see it is not works only apart from faith that saves nor is it faith only apart from works or obedience that saves. But it is a “faith that works through love (Gal. 5:6) or the obedience that proceeds from faith and is sustained by it that saves us.

Then you say:

“ For we maintain that man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." (which is again an obedience pre-condition on salvation) And yet Paul writes that this justification does not nullify the law, but rather upholds it. How is that possible? Chapter 4 explains it from the point of view of Abraham.”

Indeed we, as well as James agree that man is justified by faith apart from the observing of the Law of Moses. For that is the law he is talking about there. But he is not justified by FAITH ONLY apart from the “obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26) or obedience to Christ (Heb. 5:8,9; Luke 6:46; Matt. 7:21) or obedience to the gospel of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 1 Peter 4:16-18; 2 Thess. 1:8,9) or submitting to the LAW OF CHRIST (Gal. 6:2; 1 Cor. 9:21). And we agree with James when he says, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only.” (James 2:24). For it is not by works only nor by faith only but by a faith, which is made perfect by works just as Abraham’s faith was perfected by works. For James says, “ Seest thou how that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect.” (James 2:22). So it is works and faith wrought together that brings justification and that is the truth. Not works without any faith or faith without any works of faith that prompts man to act in harmony with the will of God.

Then you say:

“In Chapter 4, Paul makes clear that even Abraham had faith which "was creditied to him as righteousness."

Indeed this is true and James make it abundantly clear just WHEN his faith was “credited to him as righteousness”. Was not Abraham our father justified by works WHEN he offered his son Isaac upon the Altar? Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS and by WORKS was faith made perfect. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith “Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.” (James 2:21-23). But when did God consider that Abraham believed him? It was when he obeyed God in the offering of his son Isaac upon the altar. So the example of Abraham used by both Paul and James demonstrates the principle that no one is considered by God to have believed Him until his faith is perfected in obedience to the will of God. Now, let it be remember here that James used the illustration of Abraham as the supreme example of the nature of the faith that justified Abraham. And how it was perfected by his obedience to God as in the case of the supreme test of Abraham’s faith seen in his offering of his son Isaac upon the altar. It is the same principle that Abraham had followed from the moment that he was commanded by God to “leave his country of Ur of the Chaldees and go into a land that God would show him. And Abraham by faith obeyed God. And from that day forward followed this principle of faith, which justified him. And that principle was always the same. His works were wrought with his faith and by works was faith made perfect.

“ And the passage makes clear the credit was given by God with the faith, BEFORE the obedience that was also required of him.”

That is simply not true for it contradicts what James by inspiration said. James said, was not our father Abraham justified by works WHEN he offered his son Isaac That passage only states that Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. It says nothing about his being justified before and without any obedience to God. For all one need do is read what the scriptures say about this point. Even Paul says that we are to “walk in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham” (Romans 4:12). It does not say we are to merely give mental assent to or acceptance of the facts believed by Abraham but rather that we are to behave or act as he did. So let us see just what the “steps” our father Abraham took by faith.

We are told that

Then you say:

“ It was credited to him, "by faith while he was still uncircumcised." and "It was not through law" (obedience) "that Abraham and his offspring recieved the promise”

Now just here you say much that Paul never said. Indeed it was credited to Abraham not only about 430 years before the Law of Moses was given but even before he was required to submit to the law of Circumcision. And Romans says this plainly for all to see. But it does not say that Abraham was justified “BEFORE obedience was required of him. And when you say, “it was not through law (obedience) that Abraham received the promise” you take the liberty to deliberately pervert what God said through Paul. For Paul did not use the word “obedience” and the word “Law” in this verse is a clear reference to the Law of Moses which was indeed a law of works one that forced obedience that could not be obtained by faith. For the Jews did “walk in the steps of their father Abraham" who “obeyed God by faith” without a “law being made to force him to do so. But the verse does not say that righteousness was credited to Abraham without “obedience” for that is simply not the truth as the following scriptures make abundantly clear.

The first account we have of Abraham responding to God in faith is recounted by Paul in Hebrews the eleventh chapter as follows:

“ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED, and went out not knowing whither he went.” (Heb. 11:8). SO, again his faith wrought with his works from the very beginning of his relation ship with God. And in order for righteousness to have been imputed to him before he obeyed it would have of necessity have been granted to him while he was yet, along with his father, an heathen Idolatrous person who did not even know God. But when God first came to him he commanded him to do something and Abraham obeyed. And this continued to be the “steps” he took by faith, which we are to “walk in”.

By faith he sojuorned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,” (Heb. 11:9)

And again we are told, “by faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac”. Again he is still following the same principle to the very end. And that principle was that God commanded and by faith Abraham obeyed. And this is the principle of faith by which Christians as was Abraham are “made righteous”. Just as Abraham was made righteous when he because of his faith in God obey God’s commands. Even so we also, not because we have a Law such as the Law of Moses that forces us to obey God even if we do not have faith in him,. But rather we, like Abraham obey God because we trust him and believe in his promises to us which he will give if we continue in obedience to his will.

But because Romans says that Abraham was made righteous before he was circumcised does not in any way whatsoever even remotely imply that he was made such before and with out obedience to God’s commands that were given to him. In fact the Hebrew writer speaks of the command of God for Abraham to offer Isaac as a TEST of Abraham’s faith. But one thing cannot be shown by anyone. It cannot be shown by anyone where Paul, in Romans 4 or any other place says that Abraham was “justified by faith only before and without any obedience to God whatsoever. For it is just not taught there in any place.

Then you say:

“ that he would be heir of the world, but through righteousness that comes by faith."”

Indeed this is true that righteousness comes by faith but it is not true that it comes from a “dead faith” which is lifeless without “works” or obedience to God. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith ONLY”. (James 2:24). And that is the reason that Paul does not say Abraham became the “heir of the world” by FAITH ONLY as Maria would like for him to have said, now did he?

Then you say:

“and "Therefore the promise comes by faith,”

Indeed it does but not by “faith only” without obedience to God.

Then you say:

“ so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring - not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham."”

Indeed it is by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8) but not by Grace alone or by faith alone. And because God requires obedience of us does not in the least bit change the fact that his promises are from his grace. For it is gracious of him to offer salvation to us even though he requires that we obey the gospel. (2 Thess. 1:8,9). His demanding that we end our rebellion against him and submit to him by the “obedience of faith” to the gospel of Christ does not make him any less “gracious” toward us.

Then you say:

“Guaranteed by faith so that our obedience, though required, can not yet cause us to lose the gift of grace our faith assures us of.”

Now this is a bunch of absolute hogwash! There is not a single passage of scripture that teaches that we are “guaranteed by faith” of a salvation that we cannot ever lose! This is Maria’s Calvinism rather than God’s Christianity revealed in the scriptures. For our salvation last as long as our faith and our faith lives as long as our obedience to God. When we stop doing as God commanded us to do our faith will die and we will die with it! Just ask the Jews. They were God’s chosen people so long as they obeyed God but when they became disobedient he cast them off. And even Paul warns the gentiles about this in Romans 11. “Behold now the goodness and the severity of God: on them that FELL severity; but toward thee goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also shall be cut off.” (Romans11:22).

Then you say;

“ While James is clear in calling for us to be obedient in living out our faith in works of obedience, Romans is just as clear that salvation is only about faith, and our works result from that faith.”

Now Maria, you cannot show one single passage of scripture in Romans or the entire rest of the Bible for that matter that says “salvation is ONLY ABOUT FAITH” or that salvation is ONLY BY FAITH. Indeed our works result from faith and those works make our faith “perfect or complete”. Therefore without those works we do not have “complete” faith in God and any faith that is incomplete without works of obedience that proceeds from faith (Romans 16:26) is a dead faith (James 2:21-23) and cannot save anyone. And Paul in Romans says the following:

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God; who will render to every man ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory, and honor, and immortality, eternal life. But to them that are contentious and OBEY NOT THE TRUTH, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath tribulation and anguish to every soul that doeth evil, of the Jew first and also of the gentile. (Romans 2:5-9). So ROMANS is just as clear as James that salvation is also about “OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH” and the “OBEDIENCE OF FAITH” (Romans 16:26) now isn’t it. Therefore it cannot be “ONLY ABOUT FAITH” and it is surely not only about faith and Maria cannot find one single passage of scripture in the entire book of Romans that says salvation is ONLY ABOUT FAITH. Nor can she show that Paul, in Romans, talks only about faith. For he also talks about “obedience to the truth” (Romans 2:8) and the “obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26) and the “law of faith”. (Romans 3:27).

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Answers

Brethren and Friends:

I now Continue my response to Maria's post as follows;

Maria:

Now we come to you pathetic nonsense about Romans 9 and we will simply quote your words and then give a rather detailed response to them for the benefit of our readers. For this is where you false doctrine of Calvinism causes you to err greatly. Your words were as follows: Romans 9 tells us why true faith is so powerful in transforming us from sinners to saved. It tells us that the faith we rely on is not merely human assent, or human agreement that a belief in Jesus Christ makes sense to us. That is the kind of "faith" that the demons have, but they do not have the Holy Spirit within them. The faith that results in salvation begins with God, and is imparted by the eternal decree of God, and becomes a part of us as the Holy Spirit works within us. "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls - She was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated."" and "I will have mercy on whome I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whome I will have compassion." and "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort," (or obedience!) "but on God's mercy." and "Therefore God has mercy on whome he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whome he wants to harden." And you may say, as Paul anticipates, that this understanding of the election of God seems unfair, and such a God unworthy to be worshiped. Paul answers that with "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" and "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whome he prepared in advance for glory - even us whome he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles." And as I quoted before, why are the gentile Christians saved when the unbelieving Jews were not? "Because they pursued it no by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the 'stumbling stone'." In other words, they did not trust God alone, but tried to take some responsibility for their own salvation through their obedience to laws and rituals.”

We now have the opportunity to examine a passage that has often and for too long now been abused and misused my Calvinist to falsely teach the doctrine of Predestination and Foreordination and unconditional election and reprobation. Which we will allow their Creed to state again for them as expressed by Calvinist creed makers in the Presbyterian Confession of Faith as follows:

“God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass.” (Presbyterian Confession of Faith, Chapter iii, section 1.)

And to the same subject we read the answer to question twelve in the “Larger Catechism” as follows:

“ God’s decrees are wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained whatever comes to pass, especially concerning angels and men.”

And then concerning the doctrine of “unconditional election and reprobation” we quote again from the same creed as follows:

“By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men thus predestined and fore ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto.” (Presbyterian Confession of faith chapter three, secs, 3. 3,4,5,)

Now, in order to support this nonsense they often, as our Calvinist friend Marie has done, refer to Romans 9:10-13 which reads as follows:

“And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac; (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Romans 9:10-13).

That we may understand this passage, it is important to call our reader’s attention to the fact that there are two quotations in this verse from the Old Testament, which should not be blended together. One quotation is from Genesis, and was spoken before Jacob and Esau were born; the other is from Malachi, and was spoken long after they had both been dead. Before the children were born, it was said to their mother, “the elder shall serve the younger;” but in the next verse is a quotation from Malachi, where it is written “Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.” When the mistake is made of blending these two quotations together as if they were from the same source and used for the same purpose, God is made to say that he loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born; or had, either of them done good or evil. This is doing a great injustice to the record. Let us read these two Old Testament references. Let us begin by reading what was said of these two men before they were born.

“And Isaac entreated the LORD for his wife, because she [was] barren: and the LORD was entreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If [it be] so, why [am] I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Genesis 25: 21-23).

Here is what was said before Jacob and Esau were born, and we find not one single word about hating Esau and loving Jacob in the entire narrative. But as Paul said it was so written we are justified in expecting to find it somewhere. So let us try again.

“The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.” (Malachi 1:1-3). This was said about fourteen hundred years after Jacob and Esau were both dead therefore it cannot prove that God hated or loved either of them before they were born!

Both of these passages refer to Jacob and Esau as the representatives of the nations, which descended from them. Thus we can see from the language of God to Rebekah: “ Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Genesis 25:21-23). Notice that it does not say the ONE MAN shall be stronger than the OTHER MAN. But instead says the “ONE PEOPLE” shall be stronger than the “OTHER PEOPLE”. Nor was it said that the elder man shall serve the younger man. On the contrary, the inference is quite clear that the people who would descend from the elder would serve the people who would descend from the younger. This passage was never fulfilled in the individual personages of these two brothers. Esau never did, as an individual, serve Jacob. But quite to the contrary, Jacob feared Esau, and came much nearer serving him. When Jacob, at the suggestion of his mother, fraudulently obtained his brother’s blessing, which was intended for Esau, the anger of Esau was kindled against his brother Jacob. Read what God’s word says:

“And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. And these words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah: and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, [purposing] to kill thee. Now therefore, my son, obey my voice; and arise, flee thou to Laban my brother to Haran; And tarry with him a few days, until thy brother's fury turn away; Until thy brother's anger turn away from thee, and he forget [that] which thou hast done to him: then I will send, and fetch thee from thence: why should I be deprived also of you both in one day?” (Genesis 27:41-45).

Jacob then fled to Padan-aram, and there remained and served Laban for twenty years. And at the end of that time he returned with two wives, two concubines, eleven sons, and great wealth. We are told by God’s word the following:

“And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom. And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight. And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him. Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that [was] with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.” (Genesis 32:3-8).

Now, notice this friends. In this place we find that instead of Esau serving Jacob personally, Jacob feared Esau greatly. He even called him LORD, and referred to himself as “THY SERVANT JACOB”. In his distress he prayed to God: “Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, [and] the mother with the children.” (Genesis 32:11). He also sent messengers with presents to give Esau, that he might buy his favor if possible.

Then it is evident to any thinking person that neither Jacob nor Esau was mentioned under any personal consideration in the passages to which Paul referenced in Romans 9:10-13, but only as REPRESENTATIVES of the nations which should descend from them respectively. Nor was there any thing in the love of God for one, or in his hatred of the other, which could AFFECT THE ETERNAL DESTINY OF EITHER! It is quite certain that all of Jacobs’s posterity was not saved and it is equally certain that all of Esau’s descendents were not lost. In fact, it cannot be shown by anyone that even Esau himself was lost. He was, indeed wicked when he sold his birth right and is called a “profane person” for doing so. It is also certain, that he was wicked when he determined in his heart to kill his brother at the time of his father’s death. But that he remained wicked throughout his life is by no means certain. True it is that Paul says that “when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no repentance though he sought it carefully with tears.” (Heb. 12:17). But it was in his father that he found no place of repentance, and not in himself. For this is obviously talking about how he sought to persuade his father to repent or change his mind about giving the inheritance to his brother Jacob but his father would not repent of having done so. Paul was not saying the he could not repent of his sins. Instead he could not induce his father to revoke the blessing conferred upon Jacob, although it was fraudulently obtained. And we are told that when Esau met Jacob returning from Padan-aram, “Esau ran to meet him, embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him: and they wept.” (Genesis 33:4). Now here we find that all his anger toward his brother had disappeared. And they lived in friendship and brother hood ever after so far as we know.

Now the Hebrew writer says, “By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.” (Heb. 11:20). If anyone will take the time to examine these blessings he will find that there is not a single word about eternal life or eternal death in either of them. They pertained instead to national and temporal affairs entirely. Read Genesis 27:27-40.

Thus the language, Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated” was intended to apply to the two nations, Israel and Edom, represented by Jacob and Esau, is evident from the language of the context of the verses in the Old Testament from which Paul made his quotation. Look at it, “I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.” (Malachi 1;2-4).

Here the prophet uses the term “Edom”, the name of the nation, which descended from Esau, and the plural pronoun “we”, agreeing with it, to designate the same people hated and punished by the Lord. Therefore, when the Lord by his prophet said, long after both men were long dead, “Jacob have I love but Esau have I hated” , he was speaking of Israel and Edom as nations and not Jacob and Esau as individuals.

And the term “hated” must be taken in it’s often used sense of “loved less” as we can see when Christ said, “If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife and children he cannot be my disciple’ (Luke 14:27). He does not mean that we are to actually HATE our mother and father and wife and children but rather that we are to Love him more than wee love them. In other words we are to “love them less” than we love our Lord. Then when God said, “I loved Jacob and I hated Esau” the though is that God love the children of Israel more than Edom, the descendents of Esau. And this all fits into his intended argument in Romans the ninth chapter of explaining how that God was just in rejecting the disobedient and rebellious Jews and grafting in the gentiles. As sovereign God he had the right to dictate the terms of mercy to those who would become subjects of his kingdom. These terms were first offer to and rejected by the Jews; hence Paul appealed to the declarations of God to their own lawgiver Moses to show them that God had always shown mercy to whom he would show mercy and upon such as pleased him.

For Christ and those who Love the truth in Him,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Brethren this is the last response to Maria's post. And as I promised I have responded to all that she has said. And I want to mention that I had to break up my response into three seperate post because the entire response would not fit into the forum as on connected post. I now complete my response to her post as follows:

Maria:

I continue my response to your post as follows:

Maria:

You said the following:

“It is very clear that Christians are expected to obey God, and that obedience demonstrates the faith we have through the work of the Holy Spirit.”

Indeed it is clear not only that “Christians are expected to obey God”. But also that those who would become Christians are expected to do so by obeying the gospel of Christ (Mark 16:15,16; Mat. 28:19,20) by “repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38). Those who do not obey the gospel of Christ shall be “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God and the glory of his power.” (2 Thess. 1:8,9). For no one is allowed into the kingdom of God or to be a Christian who has not received the remission of their sins and God has made it quite clear that he requires that we “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38).

Then you say:

“ With the Holy Spirit in us, we will not find it at all comfortable to be disobedient to God.”

But she does not prove that we will receive the Holy Spirit before and without receiving the remission of our sins. In fact she proves nothing at all about her comments concerning the Holy Spirit. She just makes mere assertions that she cannot prove with the word of God.

Then she again states that which the word of God nowhere teaches as follows:

“But that transformation, from being a willing sinner to being a sinner who finds obedience to God joyful, happens when the Holy Spirit enters into us and transforms us and brings us to a true faith that changes the heart and saves the soul.”

Hogwash! There is not one place in the word of God that teaches such nonsense and Maria expects us to believe it just because she says it is true. Well, we do not believe without evidence that God said it. It is not sufficient for Maria to merely assert such nonsense without evidence to prove it.

Then she says again without proving:

“ From then on obedience must follow, as we learn more about what is required of us as Christians. That is why true faith is the point of salvation. From that point on, we have the Holy Spirit in our heart.”

Well that sounds all very nice Maria but where is the proof that such is the truth. We want to hear it from God’s word. The Bible does teach that we are saved at the point of “faith” but it shows us the we do not reach the point of having a complete or perfected faith until that faith is combined with obedience to God. (James 2:22-24). What she is saying here is that the moment that you simply mentally accept the facts concerning Christ to be true, which according to her you cannot do until the Holy Spirit forces you to do it, you will be saved. But no such nonsense is taught anywhere in the word of God and this is the reason that she did not refer to any scriptures that teach it. For none of them do.

Then she says:

“That is true even if in the next moment of time we were to die, and be brought before the judge without ever having an opportunity to demonstrate that faith by an outward act of obedience.”

Well again Maria that is a fine assertion but where does God say such a thing? God’s word says nothing of the kind. It is just more of Maria’s false Calvinistic doctrine but it did not come from Christ.

“ None of us humans would know if the Holy Spirit brought such a one to salvation, but it is not our business to know.”

Well maybe you need to tell Connie to modify her prayers for old E. Lee Saffold! For according to you she cannot know if the “Holy Spirit brought such a one to salvation or not and it is not her business to know. But both you and her are praying for God to “save than mean old E. Lee Saffold” but according to what you have just said you have no idea whether he has “saved” that mean old E. Lee Saffold or not! Why you do not even believe the nonsense that you are asking us to believe!

Then you say:

“ God knows the heart, and which are his own, and in whom the Holy Spirit has worked to bring about a true faith in Christ.”

Now there it is folks Calvinism pure and simple. No one can even know in whom the Holy Spirit has worked to bring about a true faith in Christ! Now where does Christ or the apostles of Christ say such nonsense? They do not and Maria has not even bothered to attempt to claim that Christ or the apostles taught such hogwash.

Then she deliberately mistranslates Gal. 5 as we have shown here before as follow:

“As Gal 5 stated it, "The only thing that counts is faith, expressing itself through love."

Now read exactly what this passage says:

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Gal. 5:6)

Now this passage does not say “the only thing that counts” Those words are not to be found anywhere in the text whether in Greek or English. But if one is going to teach false doctrine they must deliberately pervert the word of God to do so. God did not say it the way Maria wanted it to be said in Galatians 5:6 so she just decides that she will help God out by saying it better than he did!

And the text does not say “expressing itself through love” either. It says, “faith which worketh by love” the word translated “worketh” is the word “energeo {en-erg-eh'-o}” and it means, “to be operative, be at work, put forth power. to work for one, aid one. to effect. to display one's activity, show one's self operative” But she did not want to use a real translation of the scriptures which says that “FAITH WORKS” for that would be contrary to her false doctrine of salvation by “faith only”, now wouldn’t it. So the only words in her quotation that are found in the text of God’s words are “faith and love” all of the other words that she uses are not even in the text! Now anyone that must rewrite the word of God to support his or her false doctrines is not fit to teach the word of God! And Maria has only proven that she will pervert God’s word before she would give up her Calvinism! She should instead be ashamed of such. Now, I do not doubt that she has gone off somewhere and found a “paraphrase” that says such but a “paraphrase is not a translation of God’s word. And this particular paraphrase does not even remotely come close to the meaning expressed by Paul in Galatians 5:6.

And since she has perverted the word of God at this place all that she concludes from that perversion is perverted as well. Such as the following:

“What counts is faith, and that faith is expressed through love - which we know is the fulfillment of the whole law.”

Well she deliberately ignores the fact that God’s words teaches that “obedience to Christ counts (Heb. 5:8,9; Matt. 7:21; Luke 6:46).

Then she asked:

“ And how do we show our love? By living a life "by the Spirit", that is, by the obedience that the Holy Spirit works out in you as you learn and trust and obey.”

"Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

But she overlooks the truth that we are told “if ye love me keep my commandments”.

Then she says again:

“So faith is what saves,”

Indeed faith saves but “faith only does not save (James 2:24).

And the she says:

“and saving faith comes from God through the work of the Holy Spirit (though the means of the Word and preaching).”

Well, one would have to wait until Maria clarifies what she means here. But the scriptures teach, “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. And it was the Holy Spirit that revealed the word of God and that was his only role in bringing the sinner to Christ.

Then she says but does not prove:

“ Obedience results from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,”

No it does not. Now we wait for Maria to make some effort to prove this nonsense.

The she says:

“because a saved sinner can not continue to live in sin.”

It is true that the sinner cannot continue in sin and if he does he will be lost.

Then she says:

“ It would be against their 'new' nature.”

This is just more Calvinistic trash which she offers without proving it to be true by referring to the scriptures that she things teaches it. For no scriptures teach such nonsense.

Then she says:

“ But obedience is not a condition of salvation, because the Holy Spirit is already in us and we belong to God when we are brought to a true faith.”

Well if this is true, Maria, what is the proof of it? But remember that the word of God says that Christ is the “author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him” (Heb 5:8,9) And it also warns that Christ is coming in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL”. (2 Thess. 1:8,9) and “seeing that ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth…” (1 Peter 1:22)

Then she offers more Calvinistic nonsense without even trying to prove it as follows:

“ God does not lose any who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is simply impossible.”

Well read the word of God which says: “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.” (Heb. 6:4-6).

It seems that the Holy Spirit knows does not teach the same as Maria, now doesn’t it?

Again the word of God speaks:

“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.” (2 Peter 3:17).

And again:

“For if after they have escaped the pollution’s of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:19-22).

Now the Holy Spirit does not teach that it is impossible for anyone who has the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be lost”. The word of God teaches the direct opposite of such nonsense.

Then she ends by saying:

“Again, this is long enough for the purpose.”

Well, it has not been sufficient to accomplish your purpose of leading others away from the truth for we have now made it clear that you are teaching completely contrary to the word of God. But you tried to make it look good but failed miserably.

Then you say:

“ I ask again that you try to be brief in your response. (This is a convenient place to continue the discussion)”

I state again that you write your post as you see fit and I will write mine as I see fit.

Then again she approaches finality as follow:

“Finally, I find it a telling commentary on your position that you consider reliance on faith in Jesus Christ as a lie, and a false teaching.”

Well, Maria, I find it quite as telling that you would lie in this way and do so deliberately. For I have never said that “faith in Jesus Christ is a lie” and you know it. I have said that your doctrine of “salvation by faith ONLY is a lie’ because it is clearly contrary to what the word of God says. For James said, “ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ONLY”. (James 2:24). And one who so diametrically opposes the word of God is teaching a lie. But in your false accusation that I have said that “faith in Jesus Christ is a lie” you have deliberately told a lie. And Christians do not do such things “Maria. But I suppose that at least some Calvinist does lie.

Then you say:

“ It is the heart of the gospel, and the essence of the "good news" that a means to reconciliation with God is available that does not rely on our working contrary to our human faults and failings.”

Christ is the heart of the gospel and obedience is at the heart or life of faith. Without works faith is dead. And those who teach the false doctrine of “salvation by faith only” take the very heart and life out of faith. (James 2:21-24).

Then you say:

“Without that good news, no one can be saved because no one can meet the just requirements of God for perfect obedience.”

We are talking about obedience to the gospel not a life of perfection without any failing. But it is definitely possible for everyone to perfectly obey the gospel of Christ. And if they do not do so they will be condemned. (2 Thess. 1:8,9).

Then you say:

“ You are a type of that great problem in a salvation based on works of obedience.”

Another find false assertion offered without any prove to support it. WE have never said a word about “salvation based solely upon works or obedience. We have spoken as the scriptures speak of salvation by “obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26) and in obedience to the gospel (1 Cor.15;1-4; Mark 16;15,16; Romans 6:3-6;16-18).

Hear Paul yet one more time from the book of Romans:

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Then you say:

“ Not many, I am convinced, would meet your exacting standards of what constitutes an adequate obedience.”

It is not my “standards” they must meet and for that reason I have said nothing whatsoever about any standards much less “exacting ones”. This is just another attempt on your part to either “talk with someone else” or to deliberately misrepresent what I have said. Show me where I spoke of any “exacting standards”. For I have said nothing about it in the least. But you respond as if I have. I am talking about what God’s word talks about when Christ said, “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved:”. (Mark 16:16). And “repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38) and anyone can meet those standards.

Then you say:

“I believe we are all fortunate that your standards for salvation are not God's standards.”

Now I have said nothing about any standards either God’s or mine and I can assure you that my standards are God’s standards for I submit to his will as taught in his word. But I have said nothing about either my standards or Gods. I have not spoke one single word about standards so you know nothing about what I believe concerning that matter in the least.

Then you say:

“I agree with Connie, that you need a change of heart, and as I noted above that can only come through the work of the Holy Spirit within you.”

Now above you said, ““ None of us humans would know if the Holy Spirit brought such a one to salvation, but it is not our business to know.””

Now you claim you could not know if the Holy Spirit brought one to salvation or not and that it is not your business to know but then you come to the end of your post and state something that shows the even you do not believe your own words. For you state that you agree with Connie that I need a “change of heart that can only come through the Holy Spirit working within you”. But you cannot know if the Holy Spirit is working with in me or not according to your own words so how can you agree with Connie whom according to your words cannot know it either?

Then you say:

“The Spirit uses the Word and preaching the gospel, as means; so we can hope that this exchange and continued study will be used to bring about the transformation required for you to have that true faith that is the only route to salvation.”

Indeed the Spirit operates through the word of God in the conversion of sinners and the sanctification of the saints. In fact, that is the ONLY way he operates upon us for the “word of God is the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:19). But it is quite interesting to me that you, though you have not found most of what you teach n the word of God. And much of what you have said we have shown to be in direct opposition to the teaching of the Spirit through His word, that you think arrogantly that it is E. Lee Saffold who is the only one who needs to be corrected by the Spirit through his word. And that you have no such need.

But we readily admit that E. Lee Saffold stands ready to be corrected and he will not be correct except by the Holy Spirit teaching trough the word of God. So, if it is your purpose to correct me you will have to prove what you say from the word of God for we will not believe it just because Maria or any other mere human being says it is true. We will only believe it if God says it in his word. And this Maria is what you have failed miserably to do. So if I am to be corrected you best find someone who understands the word of God to help you find where the scriptures teach this Calvinistic nonsense. And if they can show from the word of God that Calvin actually taught the truth I would happily receive it for it is the truth that we want. But so far no one has even come close to beginning to prove it. And I have discussed this matter with Calvinist of far higher caliber as far a knowledge of the word of God is concerned and they failed even though they did a better Job of twisting the scriptures than you have done thus far.

Well we have responded to your post for those who are interested in these matters.

For Christ and those who love the truth in Him,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

E. Lee:

I think the reason your original thread did not post is that it was TOO long! (Imagine that)

I will try to re-post it here: Brethren: This thread is being started because it has become evident that the primary reason that there is so much objection to the truth taught in God’s word concerning the “obedience to the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1;8,9; 1 Peter 4;16-18; Heb 5:8,9) which includes our Lords command to “repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2:38) comes from the fact that many have accepted John Calvin’s false doctrine of “foreordination and Predestination” and his doctrine of unconditional election and perseverance of the saints.

Inasmuch as this false and pernicious doctrine continues to pervert the truth of the gospel of Christ we will again take this subject up. We have already had a lengthy discussion of it in a thread entitled “Calvinism VS the Scriptural Design of Baptism”. But because the matter has come up again in opposition to the gospel of Christ, in the thread entitled “justification by faith” we are starting this thread. We do this for two reasons. One is that we do not want to be diverted from our original purpose in the “justification by Faith” thread to finish our promise to follow the outline given in the initial post in that thread.

Second, the subject of Calvinism is broader and not directly related to the more narrow and specific discussion of “justification by faith” and we want to separate them from each other so that we can focus upon them individually and prevent confusing them with one another. It is my intent to copy and paste the two post found in the thread “justification by Faith” which have now begun the discussion of Calvinism and its opposition to the gospel into this thread and answer them here instead of there for the reasons that I have already stated.

Now at the very beginning I will simply repeat yet one more time for your edification the truth about the relationship of the gospel and our obedience to it to our salvation by grace through faith. Therefore I invite your attention to what the word of God has to say about the relationship the Gospel sustains to salvation of the souls of men. “For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” 1 Cor. 4:15

We can see from this passage that the Corinthians were “begotten by the gospel”. This shows a relationship between the gospel that was preached and being begotten of God. “For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!”(1Cor.9: 16) This shows that without doubt there is a sense of urgency and the clear expectation of God the gospel is preached. It is an urgent matter for salvation is connected to the preaching of the gospel. (Romans 1:16,17).

Then Paul makes it abundantly clear that we are SAVED BY THAT GOSPEL. “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word that was preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received; that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures.” 1Cor 5:1- 4. Now Paul makes a clear connection in this verse between the gospel and our salvation for he tells us concerning the gospel, “by which also ye are saved”. Then he shows that even the salvation that comes through the gospel is conditional by saying, “if ye hold fast the word, which I preached unto you unless you have believed in vain”. He also indicates that it is possible for one to have “believed in vain” if they do not hold fast to the gospel. He also gives in this verse a definition of the gospel. The gospel consist of certain facts to be believed. Paul gives them here, “that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture and that he was buried and that he raised on the third day according to the scriptures”. Thus according to this verse the gospel is the facts concerning the death burial and resurrection of Christ. And these are the facts that were must believe in order to our salvation according to the inspired apostle Paul. But then Paul says something else about the gospel to the Thessalonians that is frightening and ominous. And it is connected to his definition of the gospel in 1 Corinthians by virtue of his using the word “gospel” which he defined for the Corinthians. But he uses a phrase that is often used in the New Testament which does not fit the language of most modern theologians today and without Paul’s definition of the gospel given to the Corinthians we would be at a loss to comprehend his meaning.

For this reason the two verses are connected in the sense that one helps to partially explain the other. To them he said: “And to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus: who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His might.” (2 Thess. 1: 7-9). Now here the same apostle Paul that defined the gospel to the Corinthians and told them that they were saved by the gospel and that if they forgot that gospel and turned from it they would have believed in vain. This same apostle warns that Christ is coming in flaming fire to “render vengeance” on those who know not God, and those who OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL. This verse is verily relative to the subject that Paul was discussing for in one place he talks of how the Corinthians were SAVED by the gospel and defines that gospel so that there is no question or doubt as to what the gospel is that saves us. It is the truth that Christ died, was buried and raised again that is the gospel that saves us. Then to the Thessalonians he describes the horrible consequence that will come at the appearing of Christ upon those who do not “OBEY THAT GOSPEL” which saved the Corinthians. For there is no doubt that Paul preached the same gospel to the Thessalonians that he preached to the Corinthians. For he said to the Galatians, “but though we or an Angel from heaven should preach unto you any other gospel that which we preached unto you let him be anathema.” (Galatians 1:8). And those who do not obey the gospel according to Paul will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Therefore it immediately becomes extremely important to any thinking person to determine just what Paul meant when he said, “obey not the gospel”. For if we “obey not the gospel” we will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God. This explains the reason that I quoted Peter’s words concerning this matter for he too used the exact same Phrase that Paul used which we must know the meaning of, because we would not want to be among those who obey not the gospel now would we? Peter said, “For the time is come for judgement to begin at the house of God: and if it begin with us what shall be the end of them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD?” (1 Peter 4:17). Now this verse gives us information to help us understand this phrase “obey not the gospel” used by two inspired apostles. It is clear from this passage that those who were in the house of God were those who had obeyed the gospel and those who had not obeyed the gospel were not in God’s house or family. And this passage is related to the one Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in that Peter ask a question that Paul answers. He asked what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel? And Paul gives the clear answer to that question when he told the Thessalonians that those who obey not the gospel shall be punished with everlasting destruction form the face of God and the power of His might.

These verses are without doubt connected in that they are speaking of the same subject matter. And it is clear that one verse answers a question that was asked in the other verse. Therefore they are verily related! But still we do not have an answer to another question of great importance. A question that is brought to view in the light of what is said in all of the above scriptures. We know that we are saved by the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4). We know that it is possible to have “believed in vain” (1Cor. 15: 2,3). We know that the gospel is a set of facts to be believed concerning the death of Christ for our sins, his burial and his resurrection on the third day from the dead. And we know that it is possible and required for us to obey the gospel of Christ and we know the end of them that obey not the gospel. But we do not know HOW or by what means we can obey the gospel, which we must do or be eternally punished by God. In other words we do not yet know how we can OBEY the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ which is the gospel facts to be believed instead of commands to be obeyed. And we therefore seek to know if there are any commands of God that provides the means whereby we can obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Therefore we find another passage of Scripture from Paul which without question shows us a command of God that provides the only means found in the entire New Testament for anyone to OBEY the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, or to obey the gospel. Let us read it together: For Paul speaks of it briefly after having explained it in detail with these words. “Know ye not that to whom ye present yourselves as servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteous ness? But thanks be to God, that whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that FORM OF DOCTRINE wherein ye were delivered. And being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Romans 6:16-18) Thus we see that there these Romans were at one time the servants of sin. And then the Romans became “obedient from the heart” to a “form of doctrine” and were thereby “delivered” and made “free from sin” at that point in time. Is it even remotely possible that obeying this particular “form of doctrine” might be related to being obedient to the gospel of Christ? And if so is that form of doctrine the means of our being able to obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ or the gospel of Christ that we might be saved. For there is no doubt that this form of doctrine was what allowed the Romans to be delivered. And we know that there were strangers from Rome in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. And that they therefore heard Peter say “repent and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2: 38) and that they could have been among those three thousand that gladly received Peter’s words and were baptized? Well let us see what Paul has to say about this “form of Doctrine”. This is found in the sixth chapter of Romans and Paul in Romans 6:16-18 was summing up his words about this subject of not living any longer in sin that grace may abound which he began discussing in the beginning of the chapter as follows. What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (A question that would never occur naturally to a Calvinist) God forbid WE, who died to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who are immersed into Christ are immersed into his death? We were immersed therefore through immersion into death: THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED FORM THE DEAD THROUGH THE GLORY OF THE FATHER WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” (Romans 6:3- 4).

Now finally we see a “form of doctrine” (Romans 6:17) that provides a means whereby we can OBEY the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. For it was Christ that commanded baptism and hence when we are baptized we are being obedient to Christ. But we are also without doubt being obedient to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which is the same as saying we are being obedient to the gospel. For according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel is facts that Christ died, was buried and raised the third day according to the scriptures. And also we are expected to obey this gospel and the only way that could be done would be for us to have commands to obey that are related to the facts of the gospel that we must believe. How can we obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ? There is only one way given in the inspired word of God. We can obey the gospel or the death burial and resurrection of Christ when we obey his commands to be immersed. And this is the only way that the gospel of Christ, i.e. the death burial and resurrection of Christ can be obeyed. And this is when we transfer our allegiance from being servants of sins to being servants of righteousness and that is when we are delivered from sin. (Romans 6:16-18). Now, I hope that you can see that these scriptures are very much related to one another and help us to answer a very important question related to our soul's salvation. That question being how does one obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ. And the answer is clear to those honest enough to objectively consider it. We obey the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 1 Cor. 15:1-4) when we are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3; 26,27; Romans 6:3- 6) and that is when we are delivered from being slaves or servants of sin and become servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:16- 18). Therefore the thoughtful and discerning can see that I have quoted passages that are related to each other and the very subject of obedience to the gospel. Now, let us consider several other verses concerning the relation between the gospel and our salvation. “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:”(2 Cor. 4:3). Is it not reasonable that if the gospel is “hid to them that are lost” that those who cannot find it and obey it (2 Thess. 1:8,9) are therefore lost? And if one cannot obey the gospel without being baptized they would therefore be in danger of being as lost as one to whom the gospel was hid if they do not humbly submit to and obey the command of Christ to be immersed. (Mark 16:16). Especially since obedience to the gospel is essential to salvation. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; Romans 6:3-6;16-18). And be warned that the “god of this world” does not want you to even come into contact with the gospel much less does he want you to obey it to be saved. “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them, which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2Cor. 4:4). That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6) Here Paul tells us that the Gentiles are of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ and that this is done by the gospel. For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (Col. 1:5) “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Col.1: 23). Notice the words “IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH and not moved from the hope of the gospel.” The hope of the gospel is conditioned upon our continuing in the faith. And we are called by the gospel. “Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”(2Thess. 2:14). And life and immortality is brought to light through the gospel and it is obtained in our obedience through faith to that gospel. “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” (2Tim.1: 10). Christ abolished death and brought life and immortality to light by the gospel. Then where is there any hope for anyone who has not heard and obey that Gospel? For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (Heb. 4:2) Now the above is the truth. We must obey the gospel of Christ, which is the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried and raised the third day. And the only way that we can OBEY the gospel (the death burial and resurrection of Christ) is by being “buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father we also should walk in newness of life."”(Romans 6:3-6,16-18). I have shown the clear and certain relation of these verses to all that are honest and objective in their search for truth. But for those who seek to hold to Calvinism instead of Christianity and are determined to do so even if they must pervert every word they find in the scriptures. To them, no amount of explaining can help. Let him that hath ears to hear, HEAR! And such an admonition is wasted upon those that have chosen to be deaf.

We do believe all that the New Testament teaches on the subject of our salvation. And though we have emphasised that part of God’s will that teaches us that we obey the gospel when we by faith repent of our sins and submit to being baptized for the remission of our sins. (Acts 2:38). We have never taught that baptism alone without faith in Christ and his shed blood could save any one. But rather that baptism is essential to a faithful obedience to the gospel of Christ, which is essential along with faith, repentance and confession of Christ to our obedience to our Lord and His gospel, which is essential to our salvation. (Heb. 5:8,9; 1 COr. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; ROmans 6:3-6,17, 18; Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 3:19; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Acts 8:14-40; John 3:3-5; Titus 3:3-5; Eph. 5:26; Heb. 10:22; Gal. 3:26,27). But the false doctrine of Calvin concerning “Total Hereditary Depravity”, Predestination and Foreordination and unconditional election perverts the gospel of Christ and we will again show this to be the case in this thread. Therefore I have titled this thread "Calvinism Perverts the Gospel of Christ” by which I mean that Calvinism is a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ concerning our salvation from sin. For the doctrine of Predestination is stated by Calvinist in the Presbyterian Confession of Faith as follows: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably whatever comes to pass.” (Presbyterian Confession of Faith, Chapter iii, section 1.) And to the same subject we read the answer to question twelve in the “Larger Catechism” as follows: “ God’s decrees are wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained whatever comes to pass, especially concerning angels and men.” Now just think of it, brethren. If the above Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination were true, it would be impossible for man to err. Whatever he does, is in keeping with and brought about by God’s fore- ordination or decree, and therefore cannot be wrong. If he does anything-it matters not what-whether good or bad- if God has ordained everything he has ordained that thing. If it comes to pass that a man lies, God has not only ordained that he should lie, but he has UNCHANGEABLY ORDAINED IT. If it comes to pass that a man steals, God has unchangeably ordained that too. If it comes to pass that a man kills his neighbor, God has unchangeably ordained that as well. In fact it did come to pass that Cain killed his brother Abel. Why then did God put a curse upon him for it? For according to the Calvinist it was not only according to the wise and holy counsel of his will, but he had freely and unchangeable ordained that Cain should do the very thing for which He Cursed him!!! Can any sane man believe such foolishness? God has said thou shall not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Ex. 20:13-16). As God has plainly forbidden things, which do come to pass, it cannot be true that he has unchangeably ordained them. That God should unchangeably ordain that a certain thing should come to pass, and at the same time positively forbid it, is an inconsistency that entirely incompatible with his divine character. This is especially true if one understands that He has threatened the one guilty of doing that which he has he unchangeably ordained should come to pass and positively forbidden with endless punishment.

This is the Calvinistic God and no one but a person that has no resect for the true God can knowingly and thoughtfully hold and propagate such a pernicious view of Him. Surely, He whose laws ever bear the impress of justice, goodness, love and mercy which characterize their author would not punish h His dependent creature man in the rude flames of an angry hell forever for doing that which He had unchangeably ordained that he should do. For the “Lord is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all his works.” The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works”. It is not that God has from all eternity ordained that is the problem. Rather it is the false doctrine that he has unchangeably ordained; not SOME THINGS, but WHATSOEVER comes to pass-everything. Those who teach this doctrine have said things about God that makes him appear to be a monstrous beast that unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass including many things which he has positively forbidden any man to commit such as adultery, murder, lies, stealing, wars, atrocities. And then he punishes eternally those whom he ordained should so the very things that he unchangeably ordained to come to pass but that He positively forbids them to do. Such nonsense has no equal in the world of even insane men!!! And then concerning the doctrine of “unconditional election and reprobation” we quote again from the same creed as follows: “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men thus predestined and fore ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works or perserverence in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto.” (Presbyterian Confession of faith chapter three, secs, 3. 3,4,5,) Now if God has unchangeably ordained whatever comes to pass, then of course He has fore ordained just who shall be saved and who, if any, shall be lost. And if he has unchangeably fixed the destiny of every man before time began without any conditions whatever. Then Calvinism or Universalism must be true. But we think that we have proven manifestly that God did not so ordain every thing and hence this doctrine cannot support the false doctrine of unconditional and unchangeable election and reprobation. But for present, then, we propose to inquire whether or not God has unconditionally and unchangeably fixed the destiny of a definite number of two classes of persons – the Elect and the Reprobate. Then we shall proceed to examine every verse that our Calvinist friends reference, as what they suppose is evidence from the word of God that this false doctrine is true. This we will do in four separate post beginning with this one. I am confident that when we are finished all will be able to see why we do not accept his notion that God has taught such an absurd doctrine in His holy and inspired word. And after examining in detail the meaning of the verses, which he merely sites, we shall see if it is wise for anyone to be confident and content in this absurd notion of “His eternal predestination of the elect!” There is much that can be written and discussed about this subject. And in the interest of not writing an entire book on the subject because I have neither the time nor sufficient leisure to pursue such a task. I will therefore simply state a general principle from the word of God, which points to how God has always dealt with man in all ages of the world. Then I will show from the scriptures that the doctrine of “unconditional election and reprobation” is contrary to the truth that Christ died for all men and that those who are elect can be lost and those who are reprobate can be saved. Both of these two facts manifestly shows that the idea that God set all men’s destiny before the foundation of the world and it cannot in any way be changed by the death of Christ or the obedience to the gospel of Christ is false to its very core. And that it strikes at the very heart of the gospel. After doing this we will examine the verses claimed by Calvinist as suporting their false doctrine in a future post. Our God said through the prophet Ezekiel, “ If the wicked will turn from his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statues, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live and not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? Saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say the way of the Lord is not equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.” (Ezekiel 18: 21- 28). Now all one need do is to read the above passage of scripture and immediately afterward read from the Calvinistic Creed. For the Creed says: “By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others are foreordained to everlasting death. These angels and men thus predestined and fore ordained are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestined unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works or perserverence in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto.” (Presbyterian Confession of faith chapter three, secs, 3. 3,4,5,). Any one with half a brain can clearly see that the creed says the direct opposite of what God clearly said through Ezekiel. And those who love God will chose to believe what God said through Ezekiel over what men have written in their Creeds. In fact, if what God said through Ezekiel was true and none but an atheist would deny it, the above principle of Calvinism as stated in their Creeds could not have been followed in any age of the world. For if God had decided from before the foundation of the world the exact number that were foreordained to live and those foreordained to death. And if he had done so with such certainty that their numbers cannot be diminished or increased and that there was nothing, even faith or good works or PERSERVERENCE IN ANY OF THEM that would move God concerning them in any way. Then all that Ezekiel said about God forgiving the wicked man and saving his life if he turned from his wicked ways could never have been true. And what he said of the condemnation of a righteous man who forsook righteousness also could not have been true. Now I know that God does not lie and I know that God spoke these words through Ezekiel and that they are therefore true. I also know that men do lie and often without knowing it. I also know that the Creeds of men are filled with such deceptions and that they are known to have perpetuated many lies. The choice that we all have here is whether to believe what God said through Ezekiel or believe what Calvin through his followers have said in their Creeds. All who love God and His inspired word know that God is right while this Creed is pathetically wrong. Now let us consider the doctrine of eternal unconditional election and reprobation in its bearing upon the subject of the atonement. If God, before the foundation of the world, unconditionally ordained exactly how many and who should be saved and if he also determined and ordained the fixed number of those who would be lost. Then there is little doubt that the atonement of Christ could not ever reach those who were fore ordained to dishonor and wrath, and therefore they would have absolutely no interest whatsoever in His death. Indeed it is difficult to see, according to this pernicious theory, the benefits of Christ death for the either the elect or the reprobate at all. For the atonement could not make the salvation of the elect any more secure, nor could it possibly change the condition or the chances of the impossible to diminish or increase number of the reprobate. And concerning this point the Creed is consistent with itself, as far as the reprobate are concerned, for it does not assume that the benefits of the atonement could in any way reach them. And this is not, according to the creed, because of any fault in them, but rather because Christ did not die for them. This is what it says: “Neither are their any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the ELECT ONLY.” (Presbyterian Confession of Faith chapter 3, sec. 6.) Therefore when it is shown from the word of God that Christ died for all men the doctrine of unconditional election will have again been proven to be false and contrary to the true gospel of Christ. And remember that Paul by inspiration said, “But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you that that which ye have received let him be anathema.” (Gal. 1:8). Therefore let us consider what the inspired word of God teaches concerning for whom Christ, our Lord, died. Paul says: “We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste of death for EVERY MAN.” (Heb. 2:9). What can this verse mean? It can mean nothing less than the fact that Christ died for every man. Surely it would require “educated help” with extremely “elastic rules of interpretation” to supply the word “elect” so as to make it read that Christ died for every “elect man” in order to exclude the rest of mankind. By Inspiration, the apostle John wrote: “For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life; for God sent not His Son into the world to condemen the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.” (John 3:16). But again one would have to exchange the word “elect” for the word “world” in this verse in order to reach the false Calvinistic conclusion that Christ died only for the “elect” so as to restrict the love of God to the elect. But the same apostle approached this subject again when he wrote, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the following words: “He (Christ) is the propitiation for our sins: AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.” (1 John 2:2). Could words be any clearer? Would anyone ever have thought of restricting such language to the “elect” except that the salvation of a human theory required it?

Now we know that the word “world” is sometimes used in a limited sense when it is intended to apply to a part and not all of the human race; but in such cases it applies to the wicked as distinguished from the elect. One example will show this to be true. Jesus said, “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” (John 15:18,19). In this quotation the word “world” is used several times in a limited sense, but every time it refers to the wicked as distinguished from the elect. But the context of both John 3:16,17 and 1 John 2:2 utterly forbids any restriction in the use of the term “world”. Let’s examine John 3:16, and 17 a little. The passage not only teaches that God loved the world but that he sent his Son into the world was that the world might not perish, but have everlasting life. Then, if the love of God and the world to whom he sent his Son, should be confined to to the “elect world”, it follows that whosoever of this “elect world” believes on Him may not perish. But others of the elect world may not believe on him, and therefore perish. This view is prominent in the verse immediately following: “He that beleiveth on Him is not condemned: But he that believeth not is condemned already. This doctrine the advocates of Calvinism will not allow. And it will do not good to confine this term to the Jews. To do so would have the verse read: “God so loved the Jewish world that he sent his only begotten son…” For that would exclude all others but Jews from the benefits of the atonement, even the Calvinist Creed makers themselves.

Then it is clear that it means exactly what it says. Christ is the “propitiation for the sins of the whole world”. Again Paul said: “Because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which should live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.” (2 Cor. 5:14,15). Here the apostle Paul clearly teaches that Christ died for all affected by the sin of Adam. For this reason he says, “If one died for all, then were all dead. Then as “death passed upon all men” (Rom. 5:12), even so Christ died for all men. “Therefore, as the offense of one, judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” (Romans 5:18). Without taking the time to give a complete exegesis of this verse, it is sufficient for our argument to call attention to the obvious fact that as Adam’s sin affected all men, even so the benefits of Christ’s death are offered to ALL MEN. Jesus our Lord also spoke to the same effect concerning His sacrifice for all men. He said, “ I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This signifying the death that he should die.” (John12: 32,33). Now we are certain that he would not expect His death to draw all men unto him if they had no reason to have any interest in his death. What attraction could the death of Christ have for a reprobate who knew that Christ did not die for him but for the “elect” only? Then we are told again by Paul, “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1Timothy 2:5,6). Here, as usual, Paul is in direct conflict with the false notion that Christ died only for the “elect” as taught by Calvin and perpetuated by the Creeds of Calvinist who insist that Christ died only for the elect. In our next post we will establish that Christ died for those who may have been or may be lost.

Then we will follow with another post to give a specific and clear exegesis of each passage that Calvinist think teaches his pernicious Calvinistic doctrine. For if they do teach his doctrine they would all be in direct conflict with the facts, which have already been established, that Christ died for all men. And he did not die only for some imaginary “elect” chosen before the foundation of the world. For Christ and those who love the truth in Him, E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001

Duane:

You have said:

“E. Lee:

I think the reason your original thread did not post is that it was TOO long! (Imagine that)”

You are surely right! It seems that I have finally found a “limit” in the forum concerning how much room we have in each post. It appears that it is if we break it into something like 15k portions there is no limit. But if we go much above 30k in any one post it will “lock up” the thread so to speak.

I cannot imagine that my post was TOO long but it does appear that the “page” just a bit TOO short,, don’t ya think?

I sincerely appreciate your efforts to recover the things that I had spent several hours writing. I truly appreciate you kindness in doing this.

I would like to ask you a question also. I have been writing, as you know, a comparison of Romans 4 and James 2 and I have been doing so in a format that follows an outline so to speak and I am doing it as a web page. Is there a way that I can up load it to the forum so that my HTML does not disappear and all of my elaborate outlines etc vanish? I can access the forum, using ftp, but I do not have a password to be able to up load. If you have the time can you send me an e-mail to instruct me on how I can up load an HTML document to the forum?

I thank you again for rescuing my material from my egregious mistake I made when trying to post it.

May our Lord abundantly bless you and your family as you faithfully serve him.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2001