Can FB paper and JOBO problems be solved?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Large format photography : One Thread
I have a special question about JOBO processing FB Double Weight paper. I know that this is a somewhat unusual, in that I now understand that these machines were designed for RC paper and not FB... Much to my chagrin I discovered in the JOBO manual, on the bottom of a page way at the back, that JOBO does NOT recommend doing FB prints in their drums because they feel the ribs of the 2800 series paper drums would cause indents on the paper. After a call they also told me that the 1526 Combo tank, which can be used for one 8x10 print, would likewise cause a dent in the paper where the two tank cylinder pieces fit together. I was quite bummed out because I had set myself up to be a complete JOBO darkroom with no open trays and now it looked like they were telling me I couldn't do this AFTER I bought the machine...
So I tried some FB (Polymax fine art DW glossy) in the 1526 drum and yes, the paper dented along the divot between the two sections of the drum and did not flatten out after drying. I have not tried yet with the 2800 series tanks with the ridges, but JOBO assures me that I will probably get ridge marks running the length of the drum (I will be trying this very shortly). Their advice was that some users have used some kind of plastic mesh to back the paper so that the divot of the 1526 Combo tank and the ridges of the 2800 series print tanks would not mark the print. They said do NOT use plastic screening mesh (vinyl coated fiberglass used for window screens) in that it is too flimsy and after looking at it I agree.They could not tell me specifically what the product is however.
Soooo, here is the question:
Could any users of the JOBO, doing specifically FB Double Weight paper, tell me how they avoid the ridge and divot marks. Do you have some specific product that you use as a backer? Can I make this work? Or do I have a very expensive, but great, "film only" processor (Assuming that I stick to my guns about wanting to do FB paper and don't switch to RC).
Thanks! Hopefully there are some strange types out there who want to do this like I do...
-- Scott Jones (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 05, 2001
If you must, for whatever personal reasons, use a drum for making prints, they sell plastic screen material of differing stiffnesses in craft stores to make rugs and such with. Try that. James
-- james (James_mickelson@hotmail.com), June 05, 2001.
I can't help Scott, but hope that others seeing this can avoid similar problems. If you're thinking about a Jobo for any reason, read the entire manual for whatever processor you're considering in advance. Just go to http://www.jobo-usa.com and follow the links. Don't look before leaping!
-- Sal Santamaura (email@example.com), June 06, 2001.
I must make a rule for myself about not posting this early in the morning. Should have said (of course) "Don't leap before looking!"
-- Sal Santamaura (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 06, 2001.
Scott. There is hope! About a year ago I was in exactly the same position, and confronting the same consternation about the FB print caveat buried in the back of JOBO's instruction manual. Fortunately, when I began to make my prints (all done on Ilford DW FB Graded Galerie) I didn't have a problem. I'm not sure why. Perhaps JOBO is overstating the problem. Perhaps it's Ilford's paper (I doubt it). I think the real reason is that I use the 3005 Expert Drum. This is only a guess on my part because I really don't know too much about the construction of the 2800 series and I know nothing about the 1526. But here is my theory. The rails on the 2800 drums are there for securing paper in place if you're going to be making more than one print at a time or if you want to use different paper sizes. The 3005 Drum does not have these rails because each cylinder is designed to hold one and only one piece of paper (or film). The 3005 does, however, have two "channels" running down the length of each cylinder. These channels supply chemistry to the back side of film in order to remove the film's anti-halation layer. At first I though these channels would cause the dreaded indentations referred to by JOBO. They didn't. In fact, I have yet to see any indentation marks or diviots whatsoever in any of my FB prints. The channels are very thin, and I think this prevents them from causing a problem. The biggest problem is getting my prints to dry flat, but this has always been a curse with Fiber Based paper!! I know "try another - more expensive drum" was probably not the answer you were looking for. All I can say is that it works for me. I'm sure somone else out there is doing this. Good Luck!
-- David L. (email@example.com), June 06, 2001.
Scott: I've never used a JOBO processor so I'm not answering your question. I'm also NOT being critical. But I am curious as to why you (and several others, apparently) develop prints this way. What advantages do you find in doing this? (Or if there is no quality advantage per se in doing it this way vs. trays, why in terms of space or convenience or speed or whatever do you do this?) Thanks.
-- Kevin Crisp (KRCrisp@aol.com), June 06, 2001.
I just ordered a Jobo CPA-2 yesterday so I am interested to learn more about this issue. I ordered the Jobo for the following reasons:
1) Processing of 8x10 film, both b&w and color transparency. Of course, the jobo can also process 4x5, which is an additional benefit to me, but the jobo is not essential for 4x5. It does seem to be for 8x10 and larger.
2) Making large prints up to 20x24 (both b&w and Ilfochrome).
3) Temperature consistency (this is surely better than open trays).
4) One shot chemical use which minimizes chemical usage.
5) Chemical containment (I don't have to breath the chemicals).
6) Smaller workspace needed.
There are probably other advantages not listed.
Now I am a bit concerned about the issue of using the drums for b&w fiber based prints larger than 11x14 (I will not resort to RC - that's just not a solution). There has got to be a way. So I'm interested, too, in learning more from others who have confronted and hopefully overcome this problem. Please continue posting.
-- E. Rothman (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 06, 2001.
Mmmm.... I have a JOBO ATL 2 Plus, but I use only color materal. So you say JOBO drums only work with RC papers, because RC papers have a strong enough backing not to be effected by the ribbing and joining. So perhaps that is your answer... Use a processed peice of RC paper as your backing material for your FB based papers.
Should you decided to try this please let me know if it works. I plan on using some FB papers in the near future.
-- Stephen Willard (email@example.com), June 06, 2001.
Thanks so far for all the answers!
Kevin Crisp above asked why I am trying to do this in the first place.My house is very small and the only place I have to do photography is in a small heated breezeway between the house and garage. It is a main thoroughfare in my house. The benefits to me are that I don't need any plumbing, I can use a very minimal space for enlarger and processor, no open trays and thus no fumes (this is a really nice feature of the JOBO) and thus I don't need any ventilation. Because the process only needs a safe light for the actual enlargement, I can turn on the lights and open the doors while I process which allows the space to remain functional for the rest of my family. Thus far I am delighted with the set up and love working in the light. Film developing of 4x5 has been great. Jobo makes drums for up to 20x24" for prints. Beats the heck out of multiple trays in big sizes...
Now to get the FB prints working. I will be running a print tonight in the 1526 drum which does one 8x10 and only uses 50cc fluid. I found at a craft store some "plastic canvas" that is used for rug hooking projects (suggested by James above) which is flexible but does hold a cylindical shape and will not crumple. I am going to try this as a backing. I will also try a FB print in a 2800 series drum to see if the dreaded ridge marks show up. If they do I can try the plastic canvas, acetate with holes punched in, or as one poster sugested, a sheet of RC as a backing.
Should be an adventure; I will post results.
Please keep giving ideas if you have any...
-- Scott Jones (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 06, 2001.
It isn't the greatest solution, but you could always use the Beseler drums and motor base for fiber prints. They have no ribs, and print developing doesn't require the control only a JOBO can give you, since you develop completely anyway. The drums and motor base are cheap on ebay. A warning though: Ebay has really started spamming its users lately (at least it is spamming the heck out of me!).
-- Erik Ryberg (email@example.com), June 07, 2001.