yet again this arguement raises it's head,this time in the chronicle.nufc have always had bigger crowds and geography plays a large part in it. take sunderland,to the east is the north sea,the south has boro,pools and darlo and to the north you lot.newcastle have a clear run to the scottish borders and westwards towards carlisle.using an atlas will further prove my point. the brown areas on a map are to indicate an urban area.the darker the brown the more the population.now look at newcastle's adjacent brown areas and compare them to sunderland.result,newcastle have a MUCH bigger population to draw from assuming that most people go to the club closest to themselves. taken from this i could say that we have better fans than nufc as we have less to pull from yet the average crowds are not as far apart as the potential catchment areas are. btw its the new improved superkev.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Answers

Clutching at straws a bit there super. It could be argued that much of South Tyneside is closer to the S.O.S. and was certainly closer to Joker Park than St. Jimmy's, many of the poor buggers living there could therefore easily have chosen to cross over to the dark side (and in some cases did - Stevie 'shithouse' Cram to name but one), the majority however saw sense. Then there's the County Durham debate - oft discussed on this here BB; I could never get me head 'round why anyone who talked with an 'almost mackem' accent like most Durhamites do would want to desert their similarly speech- impeded Red and White brethren, but again the wiser of their number chose the path that is right and true. Indeed my mates from Chester le Street who have to mix with Black Cats (are you serious about that moniker?) on an extremely uncomfortable daily basis are among the most vehemently anti-mackem mags I know. I summise that at the end of the day it's down to intelligence not catchment area

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

So you have had a meeting with yourself and made some valid changes?

They also say the washing powder I've been using is improved, perhaps the company has also had a review/evaluation and also made some changes like you????

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Hmm, great logic SuperKev. Manure only draw on the population from West Manchester down to Rochdale & up to Blackburn/Oldham, Spurs draw on the bit between Barnet & Seven Sisters, Chelsea draw on the gap from Fulham down to Brentford. We get bigger crowds than Hartlepool, Berwick, Darlo & you lot bicause we are a bigger club. The city isn't much bigger in population but in status, wealth & facilities it's streets ahead, the inhabitants and fans generally more intelligent & wealthy. It's just the way it is.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

I was talking to SK BTW, when I mentioned the meeting...

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Lets just take this land thing to its illogical conclusion.

As Sunderland is closer to the North Sea all of Europe is closer to you. If you ever played in Europe you would be able to use these nearer supporters to boost your gates.

Unless you count Darlington and Hartlepool as legitimate opposition, and I could understand why you might then there is only Boro to compete with looking south.

As you say everything north of the Tyne will likely be instinctively ours, but as you have said it's all green open fields lacking in population, and if you are worried about Darlington/Hartlepool then we must also respect the Berwick effect.

I'm glad you are the new imporved superkev, the last one started well enough looking good in his new surroundings but once he'd been found out his postings tended to get less and less, I believe he is looking to now post on the Arsenal board where he feels he'll have more chance to show off his skills and maybe progress to get an opportunity to post on the national board. Of course if he doesn't get a chance to post on the national level he'll blame us.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Dave, I think you will find that SK is correct when he says we have more people in equal radius who live closer to St. James and the Mine collapse site. I dont think in general the inbreded one was being a major cunt.

I think he was talking more about the quality of the support not the quantity. But his argument is floored because you cant measure quality like quantity.

Thus NUFC has 80% of Jarrow, Hebburn; 50% S/Shields; 97% of Gateshead; 70% of inland Co. Durham because of geography. The geography which favours the toon in population quantity etc....

He is right...

On his quality arguement 'I can honestly say there is nothing in the quality argument which can be proved, you cant really measure the quality etc.

As the inbreds role-model many of our cultures to argue or debate throughly. Thus if they share 97% of our cultures the proportion of people in the big Wearsideson family will have similar fashions and trend to ours.

MY IMPARTIAL INDIVIDUAL OPINION ON THE QUALITY ARGUEMENT IS, I would estimate 'if' every 4 out of 10 of our fans is a singer a little less could be said for the inbreded ones from the Wear, because they will probably have similar proportion divisions as us..

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

which begs the question....why do mackems even exist?

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Life and creation can be cruel sparxx.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

they are an earlier species not yet quite evolved as the rest of the world, still led by the monkey king, one day they will come to join in.

Did you know that despite their obvious general socialist leanings they are all absolutely behind William Hague in his view of keeping things out of Europe, in fact Peter Reid has been one of the keenest proponents of keeping out of Europe

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Well i tried!!!! That is tried to put forward a valid point and what happens? I get called an inbred.I actually fall in the geograpical 97% area of gateshead and speak with a geordie/tyneside accent.So take away me colours am i indeed an inbred? Oh and could you answer me this,if i am not a geordie what is a person who 'supports' newcastle and has no connection with the north east? Are they a geordie?Not that it matters as i rejoice under the label of tynesider.By the way,am i being encourager to return to insulting behaviour?

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Something i forgot to mention from the replies. It's all down to intelligence!!!!!!! Well please explain that one to me and try to be serious.At least i attempted to put some fact behind my opinion,lets see how you explain the intelligence claim.Of course i would be easy for you to say "all mackems are thick" but come on,do you really believe that? And yes i am expecting the"more famous people come from newcastle" but to make a sweeping generalisaion like"it's down to intelligence" are quite beyond relief.Please fell free to look for spelling mistakes,grammar concerns and general clerical mistakes if you feel it may add weight to your pathetically flimsy arguement.By the way ,i am going to post this little lot on READY TO GO and hopefully it will provoke a response,god knows you need the publicity,and all the other'thick mackems'can have their say.Although i think it is a bit quiet tonight.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Superkev you're quite right, all Mackems aren't thick.

Most of them are though.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Sadly your new improved version is so different from every other abusive posting yoiu have ever produced most people assume you are one and the same and will turn into being obnoxious.

If you really have come on to have a sensible debate then you know there is no ansmwer to your pointas Fergus (?) and Ashington Mag spent weeks, nay months, arguing the same facts, down to getting last census figures for Durham pit villages to produce 'meaningful' stats.

As the NUFC.COM site is showint at the moment Newcastle have generally had larger crowds throughout our histories. Also there is a saying in horse racing .... "you don't have to make excuses for winners".

Apolgies again if some of us assumed you were here to be abusive. It's all you've been in the past. (This includes your earlier posting about Stew, if you meant well, I apolgise for taking it wrongly)

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

My stew posting? I was NOT disrespectful but as i recall i did point out that you still used this terrible occurence as a vehicle to 'have a go' at ready to go.Back to the origional discussion,i will not be moved in my view that Newcastle has a bigger pool to draw from.Even people who do not like football would say they 'support' newcastle simply because newcastle is the largest city in the north east and it attracts people with no loyalty to any place in particular.Is this intelligence linked or is it simply the fact that people sign their addresses as newcastle even in gateshead which is ,as you know,where i reside? I mean signing newcastle when you are in gateshead,is that a LACK of intelligence? Wouldn't it be interesting if tyne and wear was not formed and our crowd booms of the last few years were split between a northumberland team and a durham team,do you think the outcome may be different as some south of the tyne may feel that crossing the river is crossing the boundray.As an aside i think that gateshead suffers in the same respect as Salford losing out to Manchester ie a big place but with a bigger place just next door.By the way i know that some who frequent this forum are from south of the tyne,why did they choose to cross the river?

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

superkev,
The thing that has always surprised me in this debate is that Newcastle always appear to have had the lions share of the support in the South Tyneside and Durham areas.
These are large urban areas that must surely even out the potential population draw areas for the two Clubs?

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

I went to a Durham school, that then became a Gateshead school. (I lived in the only place south of the river to have Newcastle in its address !!)

The geography of the region demanded I went to Newcastle and not Sunderland. I could see the flood lights from my bedroom window, as I'd guess lots of the middle to western part of Gateshead can. In my year at school there were 150 lads and there were a couple of Leeds supporters (this is mid 70s) a couple of Arsenal and as far as I know 2 Sunderland supporters, but all the rest, ALL of them were were Newcastle supporters and at some point went to the match.

I lived in Nottingham for three or four years and they have two teams to support. Forest always have more. The two teams are split by a river. To try and discuss their relative merits as far as gates is concerned is daft basically both of them are hopless, and an embarrassment to the city. They woudl both be amused at you and I discussing who'e got the biggest willy (it's me by the way) as in coamparison to them even yours is enormous.

Having lived away from Tyneside for most of the last 20 years I hear what people say about north east football fans. Both sets are viewed as superb. Two teams which have collectively won bugger all for nearly 30 years don't deserve the gates we produce.

A more interesting related topic for me is why you lot don't seem to be able to get big crowds for cup games. To average 48000 or whatever you get for league games and to then drop so dramatically for cup games just seems wrong. We are essentially the same people so why do Newcastle-supporting Tynesiders and Sunderland-supporting Tynesiders have such different views on attending cup matches ?

To outsiders everyone north of Middlesbro was viewed as a Geordie. Essentially the accent is the same, the heritage is the same, the passion for football is the same. The makem name only arose so that Sunderland fans could gain a separate identity.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Maybe it's the late hour, or maybe it was the free wine at the BBQ tonight, but this sort of discussion bores me. I'm a Geordie and proud of it. I'm a NUFC supporter and proud of that too. There are also proud Carlisle, Exeter, Barnet et al supporters. TO be honest, why you choose a temais less relevant to me than the fact that ytou have nailed your colours to the mast, come thick or thin (and all other suitable clichés).

I respect SKP for coming back with a debatable point, and particularly the way it was addressed (despite the "the end" posting last week), even tho it is not one I particularly want to debate.

Kev, keep 'em coming. We'll turn you into a stripey LR yet ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

So it's facts you want, is it Sewpah?

FACT - The population of Sunderland is bigger than that of Newcastle.

Fact - The further east you go along the south bank of the Tyne, the more people support Sunderland so by the time you reach South Shields it's probably 50/50.

Fact - Sunderland FC has quite a bit of support in Northumberland e.g. Ashington (crawling with Mackems).

Question - If you "rejoice under the label of Tynesider" why in the name of God, do you support a Wearside team?!!!!!!!

While I'm about it, I pointed out to you the other day that Gateshead and Newcastle folk are the same people. We are not divided by but share the Tyne. Your comment about Gateshead people putting Newcastle on their address was correct in the case of Whickham but nowhere else. Whickham has a Newcastle postal address - who knows why? - Ask the Post Office! It is however a very small part of Gateshead, which is the largest of the five districts of Tyne & Wear so your "Newcastle address" argument is not only wrong but bloody insulting!

The bottom line is, that we have and have always had, a bigger support than the Mackems. Deal with it, you Mackem wanker.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

SMB, I begining to warm to you bud!

P.S. Mr SK the toon has always had the majority South Tyne....

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Sad statto person

Whickham was sold by the Durham prince bishops to Newcastle to keep them from beating them up in the 14th century so it has the Newcastle Upon Tyne address.

Next

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2001

Fair play skp....I disagree with your argument but appreciate the fact that you at least tried to present it reasonably.....ignore the crap you're taking and keep it up!

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

Super, my reply was completely tongue in cheek - I thought that would be patently obvious. I won't be going over to RTG to check the mackem response, better things to do with my time, but if they're getting themselves all agitated over an allegation of lack of intelligence then perhaps you should cut and paste this posting to put things into context. Or do you only paste the stuff that will cause the biggest stink? Remember, your original posting was made on this BB, I would never have posted my response on a Red and White site, as I said - better things to do.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

Hmmmm. Look before you leap. It would appear that the evidence to support or disprove the allegations about intelligence and wealth are far from uniformly favourable to Newcastle. If someone is so lacking in a life that they are prepared to trawl through the government statistics (ahem) then they will learn the following.

The national target for Key Stage 2 is to score a 4. The following are the average scores for the children from wards in the following local authorities:

Gateshead 3.85
Newcastle upon Tyne 3.75
North Tyneside 3.84
South Tyneside 3.79
Sunderland 3.83

Hmmmm. So much for intelligence.

What about wealth?

On the national Indices of Deprivation which rates the 354 Local Authorities on a scale from 1 (worst) to 354 (best), the areas rate as follows:

Gateshead 46
Newcastle upon Tyne 59
North Tyneside 71
South Tyneside 13
Sunderland 15

So, South of the river is apparently more deprived than North of the river.

On a basis of individual wards within the Local Authorities which are rated nationally from 1 (worst) to 8414 (best), the areas rate as follows:

Best Wards:
Gateshead: Whickham South (5243)
Newcastle upon Tyne: South Gosforth (7251)
North Tyneside: St Mary’s (7563)
South Tyneside: Cleadon and East Boldon (6659)
Sunderland: Fulwell (4988)

Worst Wards:
Gateshead: Bede (117)
Newcastle upon Tyne: Walker (30)
North Tyneside: Chirton (74)
South Tyneside: Rekendyke (224)
Sunderland: Southwick (55)

You will notice that Newcastle has the greatest range with one of the least deprived wards in the country as well as one of the most. A bit of a gap between rich and poor evidently.

This is the percentage of jobs per head of population followed by the percentage of the population claiming Income Support::

Gateshead 40% - 9.69%
Newcastle upon Tyne 52% - 9.96%
North Tyneside 33% - 8.27%
South Tyneside 27% - 10.30%
Sunderland 36% - 9.36%

So, although Newcastle has the most jobs, a greater proportion of the population is on Income Support. A lot of people from elsewhere in the region are coming to Newcastle to offer the skills unavailable in the local workforce. Far from Newcastle leeching all the wealth from the region, Newcastle is actually redistributing the wealth to the other Local Authorities by providing employment to their population.

Bottom line is that the kids in Newcastle schools underachieve more than those in Sunderland, more Novocastrians claim income support than mackems and (judging by the fact that we have more jobs in Newcastle per head than they do on Wearside) they are actually stealing our jobs. We were just too thick to notice.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

The proof of the pudding would be if 42,000 Ncstle supporters turned out to watch Pompey, Barnsely and similar shite in the Nationwide 1st division. Prehaps you will indulge us the season after next.

I for one believe there is little between the clubs at the moment. SAFC are better financially equipped and performing slightly better in the league, NUFC have a bigger stadium with the potential for greater earnings if they can overcome their debts.

If you drew a 10 mile radius around the SOL, two thirds of this so- called catchment area would be in the north sea. Considering we have 36,500 ST holders, 84% of which are local, we either have a lot of football-mad seals or a very sound support base.

The Smith bros use of the word "inbred" is stunningly ironic considering the inbreeding of opinion they appear to represent.

ML3

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

Please check my postings for the term 'inbred or inbreed' or anything similar. I think someone's imagining things.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

SMB says that Ashington is crawling with Mackems. This must be a relatively new aberration. On another posting I did mention that there were a few, but crawling with them? Not in my experience.

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

Nor mine, or me mate's, or his dad's (who are from Ashington).

Northumberland has a few knuckle draggers, but then wouldn't you want to get away from Wearyside a.s.a.p?

BTW - suuuuuperkev, are these your keys?

-- Anonymous, May 31, 2001

No offence meant Floridian. Sorry mate.

-- Anonymous, June 02, 2001

The proof of the pudding would be if 42,000 Ncstle supporters turned out to watch Pompey, Barnsely and similar shite in the Nationwide 1st division.

I'm not sure what proof is being sought here. I can assure you that if Newcastle were challenging for promotion from said Division 1, (is it still sponsored by Nationwide? - it's so long since we were there that it's quite slipped my mind - I'll rely on your more recent experience) then gates in excess of 40,000 would not be a problem. Indeed in our promotion season the ground was full every week although it was only 30000(??) capacity or so at the time. (Our record average attendance was set in 1948 getting promotion from old Div2 - That record was subsequently bettered by Man Utd 25 years later - getting promotion from the same division. You lads probably set a record for Div 3(!!!) in the season you graced it with your presence) If we were struggling in mid table in div 1 and had been doing for 2 or 3 seasons then the gates would start to fall dramatically. This is exactly what would happen at SOL as well, ie you'll get excellent gates if you're after promotion, the support would fall away if not. How can it be otherwise? There comes a point for every fan when they decide that they have better things to do with their time and money.

Attendances? Never understood why people argue the toss about them. They depend on many factors, wealth of the region, success of the club, population size etc. What is more important is the passion of the fans who do go. In this regard, as I've said elsewhere, we are basically the same people, so you won't be able to separate the fans on this measure, but IMHO, on any measure of passion you would be able to put both sets of fans well ahead of most of the rest of the country.

PS. To prove my point about our Div 1 attendances, name the club which had the highest attendance in the entire country on the very first day the Premiership began in the early 1990's. It was of course, Newcastle United, in Division 1, at home to those great crowd pullers, Southend.

-- Anonymous, June 02, 2001