Armed, Feral Children in Idaho

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Wild dogs, armed kids keep Idaho law at bay

This story is quite surreal.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2001

Answers

I meant to post an exerpt, sorry.

"We know there are six children in there and guns in the house. The kids are trained to use the guns," Jarvis said. "We've been working for four or five days trying to figure out how to get the mom off the property and get her in a mental hold."

The home lacks power, water and heat. The children, ranging in age from 8 to 16, are essentially in the care of their 16-year-old sister, Jarvis said. They are believed to be malnourished. They've been home-schooled and the 15-year-old boy apparently reads well enough that he's enamored with survivalist magazines, Jarvis said.

A 19-year-old sister who left home some time ago has been assisting the Sheriff's Department.

SNIP

As Tilson was explaining the situation to the 15-year-old boy, he "runs back to the house and yells, `Get the guns,"' Jarvis said. "They let all the dogs out of the basement. The dogs were attacking again. They've gone totally wild."

After warding off the dogs with gunshots, officers settled down to using a loudspeaker to try to talk the kids out of the house, but had no response.

"We were trying to convince them that we weren't there to hurt them, and that we were there to assist them, to get them housing and food," Jarvis said. "We would make arrangements to see (their mother) and get them fed."

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2001.


Apparently they don't want or need Big Brother. Leave them alone.

-- We (need@more.like.them), May 30, 2001.

Did you actually read the article?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 30, 2001.

Tragic.

The police should try something totally unorthodox, like say bringing an ice cream truck to their house, or maybe a moon bounce, maybe a clown or something.

The kids don't know any better. They definitely need help.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 30, 2001.


Boswell?

-- (nemesis@awol.com), May 30, 2001.


Boswell is the new head of the forest service. Frogs beware and look out for straws.

Very,

Bemused

-- Bemused (Bemused@comedy.xxx), May 30, 2001.


Dennis, love the job you are doing at the new Tb2K!

-- bespectacled (at@oo.pool), May 30, 2001.

This country does need more liberal hereos like this. In a day when most democrats are too scared to stand up to Bush, these heroic children are the future of the Democratic Party.

-- Hip Hip Hooray (for@these.children), May 31, 2001.

If you want my opinion, I would advice them to fuck the dogs and feed the kids. If the little fuckers don't want to come out for supper put em to bed without it. And if the dogs get hungry they'll probably eat the kids and then they can go in. If the dogs are still on the rampage after a full stomach, riot shotguns filled with double 00 buck ought to take care of the situation. It's tough livin out here in Idaho.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), May 31, 2001.

Another chapter in this sad, strange story.

Friends and neighbors say family crisis was long time in coming

Looks like the parents were in trouble for a long time and just refused all efforts to help. Although the dad had MS he died of dehydration and malnutrition. The oldest daughter tried to join the Navy but was refused when she turned out to have stress fractures from malnutrition.

The children already were trained never to leave the house or speak to anyone, Jarvis said. When the mother went down the driveway, the children would spread out in the brush and stand watch, he said.

I can only imagine the kind of paranoid gabage these kids had drilled into their heads. I just hope the police and the kids stay calm til this thing is resolved.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 31, 2001.



Daddy dies a week or two ago and he was bedridden for a while before that. Mommy is claimed to be mentally ill and must be rounded up with lies by the authorities and taken in and so the kiddies are now practicaly orphans inside of a two week period with the help of the authorities they are expected to trust. Exactly how would you react? Mommy was captured with a lie and for all the kids know they are being lied to. Were they waiting for daddy to die? Sure looks like it. Are they lieing to the kids? Probably. "Oh no we won't split you up. All six of you will be placed in the same house." If big sis is so intereseted in this why don't she move in there or have them move in with her. This is up in the middle of nowhere. If they don't have a wood stove and a well I'd be surprised and if they have some way of making their own electricity I wouldn't be surprised. They could only be without heat, water and the like by being hindered by the authorities so who is mistreating the kids here. "Surround them. they will come out when they get hungry or cold enough."

-- Just Passin Through (Nobody@nowhere.com), May 31, 2001.

Send in the tanks and the flame throwers. We need to save these children!

-- (JanetReno@dyke.fest), May 31, 2001.

I'm too far away from this to kid myself that I have an informed opinion. But one thing is for sure in my mind - you don't try to starve out kids who haven't done anything wrong. You bring food and water and give it to them any way they feel safe accepting it.

As for the feral dogs, Boswell is right. You don't give them an inch. If they make a wrong move you kill them without hesitation, because they would just as soon kill you as look at you.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 31, 2001.


Reading the second article, it seems clear to me that the community did try to come together to support this family, only to be turned away by wild dogs and guns. I'm not sure if the local authorities are giving these kids food, I sort of doubt they can even get close enough and it seems the kids wouldn't leave their enclave to pick it up.

This whole situation is sad and potentially tragic.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 31, 2001.


Here's another story, this one from MSNBC.

Neighbor Mary Peters told NBC’s “Today” show that JoAnn McGuckin would tell her children that food that came from outside might be poisoned or that people were out to get them.

SNIP

The illness and the financial struggles that followed took a mental toll on JoAnn, Peters said. She became convinced her husband’s illness was caused by chemicals sprayed on the roads, and that the government was planning to take the children and their home, Peters said.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 31, 2001.



Tar:

I wonder if she is the JoAnn [chemtrails JO] who used to post on TB2000.

Very,

Bemused

-- Bemused (Bemused@comedy.xxx), May 31, 2001.


Doubtful. They've been without power for five years, no water, no heat, no phone. Compared to these guys, the doom and gloom crowd are a bunch of pikers.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 31, 2001.

Dennis I see you are trying to keep track of your posters.

-- bespectacled (at@you.folks), May 31, 2001.

Tarzan,

Do you really believe that they have been without heat for five years in Idaho?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 01, 2001.

J, if I may answer that question for you. Hell yes there are places out here without electricity. Some of these nut cases move where there is no power service and that was probably their first intention anyway. The environmental warm and fuzzy nuts from California and Florida move up here to get that back to nature feeling and no electricity is one of their desires. Most long term residents of Idaho would prefer to live close to a plug in.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 01, 2001.

I find it easy to believe these people have no heat. The video I saw of the house didn't show any chimney or stove pipe, and the neighbors said the family cooks outside when they have food. If they had a source of heat other than electrical or oil, they would have had something to cook on, even if it was just a spit in a fireplace. The neighbors also said the family draws their water from a lake that's a mile away, so they have no well, either, and no sewer. It sounds to me like they didn't plan on living without services but ended up without them through misfortune and circumstance. Even you must admit that there's a difference between living off grid in a properly equipped home and living without power, water, or heat by accident.

I think it's telling that the father, who had been ill for some time, died of dehydration and malnutrition and that the oldest daughter was refused entry into the military because malnutrition had weakened her bones. I heard this morning on the news that the fifteen year-old boy had surrendered peacefully and, after a medical examination, was found to also be suffering from malnutrition.

I am praying hard for this family. I am praying that the law will keep their cool, that the LORD will help the children find trust in their hearts so that they may get help and that He will heal them of whatever injuries they've sustained, whether physical or emotional. Matthew 19:14.

-- Polly Wanna Cracker (polly@wanna.cracker), June 01, 2001.


Boswell,

I appreciate your response, but I didn't mean electricity, I meant heat. Wouldn't it be hard to survive an Idaho winter (let alone five) without heat?


Polly,

I disagree with your heat assessment. A portable kerosene heater doesn't require a chimney or a stovepipe, nor is it an easy contraption upon which to cook.

I don't know enough about the situation to pass judgment on either the family or law enforcement, other than that law enforcement deceived the mother, and now the children are reluctant to trust law enforcement. But I do have enough common sense to question what the newspapers and/or Tarzan say, when the claim is that a family has survived five Idaho winters without heat.

I, too, have been praying for this family and this situation, for regardless of fault, there are lives on both sides that are at stake here.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 01, 2001.

http://wire.ap.org/APnews/center_package.html?FRONTID=NATIONAL&PACKAGE ID=crime&STORYID=APIS7CBS1MG0&SLUG=CHILDREN%2dSTANDOFF

JUNE 01, 12:20 EST

Teen in Idaho Standoff in Custody

By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS Associated Press Writer

SANDPOINT, Idaho (AP) — One of six children involved in a four-day standoff at their rural home was taken into custody overnight and is apparently willing to try to help end it, authorities said Friday.

Benjamin McGuckin, 15, who initiated the standoff and is said to be an avid reader of survivalist magazines, went to a neighbor's house late Thursday and accepted the neighbor's offer to drive him to a meeting with authorities, Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson said.

The boy met with a sheriff's deputy, a social worker and two doctors, a pediatrician and a family practitioner.

The teen may be able to help resolve the stalemate, Robinson said.

``He indicated he may be able to be of some assistance,'' the prosecutor said. ``He could convince them that nothing bad will happen.''

It appears the boy has been outside for some time — perhaps since deputies took his recently widowed mother away from the home on Tuesday on a warrant charging felony injury to a child, the prosecutor said.

Although there was ``some indication that he was suffering from malnutrition,'' the boy did not need to be hospitalized and was in the custody of the state Department of Health and Welfare, Robinson said. Robinson said he believed the boy was staying at a juvenile facility in Sandpoint pending more long-term arrangements.

Five other children of JoAnn McGuckin, 46, ranging in age from 8 to 16, have refused to leave the house. The other children who remained inside Friday have been identified as Kathryn, 16, Mary, 13, James, 11, Frederick, 9, and Jane, 8.

It was not clear who was in charge, Robinson said.

The standoff began after the mother was lured out of the house by sheriff's deputies. The father, Michael McGuckin, died recently after a long illness and the family has been described as having fallen on hard times.

The prosecutor said he had not met with the boy, nor is the boy the subject of a criminal investigation.

``I don't anticipate filing any charges,'' Robinson said.

An older daughter, Erina, 19, has been helping authorities try to resolve the standoff, but it was not immediately clear whether Benjamin would join that effort.

``We hope that maybe they can give us some insight into how to wind this thing down,'' Robinson said.

The standoff began when deputies went to the house for the children after the mother was lured out of the house and arrested. The plan was to put the youngsters in state custody. But the children spotted them, and Benjamin led the others in loosing a pack of vicious dogs and shouted ``Get the guns!'' Robinson said.

Prosecutors said in court Wednesday that the children were malnourished, dirty and deprived of heat, and that the mother had been spending the family's meager financial resources on alcohol.

Attorney Edgar Steele, representing the mother, disputed the assertion that the children had been neglected and is attempting to get her bail reduced. And Northern Lights, the local power company, said that contrary to previous reports, the house has had electricity throughout the standoff.

Steele went to the house Thursday, but said the children would not speak to him.

A family friend picked up a 200-pound box of staples for the children at the Bonner Community Food Center last Friday, director Alice Wallace said Thursday.

Wallace characterized the McGuckins as ``a normal family that has fallen on hard times.''

The father of the family died May 12 after suffering from multiple sclerosis for several years. The county coroner attributed McGuckin's death at age 61 to malnutrition and dehydration.

Caring for her husband and the children apparently took a toll on JoAnn who became increasingly paranoid over time, according to those who know her. She blamed chemicals sprayed on roads for her husband's illness and feared the government would take their home and children.

The family refused help from social service agencies and the young children were kept home from school.

The standoff with the children raised the specter of nearby Ruby Ridge. Three people died in that 1992 standoff — anti-government isolationist Randy Weaver's wife and son, and a federal deputy marshal, one of several sent to arrest Weaver on a weapons charge.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 01, 2001.


I disagree. These are people who can't afford to feed themselves, yet we're suddenly supposed to believe that they have enough money to buy kerosene on a regular basis? Remember that at least one of the family members was so malnourished as to have permanent physical impairment. Sure, kerosene is cheap, but if your children are starving do you spend five dollars on heat or on food and huddle together for warmth around the fire in your front yard? As a side note, I think this may be part of the reason they had so many dogs. It worked for the eskimos, right?

Also remember that these people are apparently so ignorant of basic survival that they built their house a sizeable distance from water and haven't sunk a well (for whatever reason). Clearly they didn't plan to live this way. And if they didn't actually plan this, did they have the foresight to purchase a kerosene heater before becoming too broke to buy food and keep the utilities going?

Questioning the newspaper accounts is certainly a good idea, but you seem to be focusing on this one aspect of the story to the exclusion of all others.

As to the deception of the mother, I think the police may have been justified. If the mother truly is mentally ill, it may have been the only way to remove her from the home. I think the mistake the police made was in underestimating the degree of paranoia the children have.

-- Polly Wanna Cracker (polly@wanna.cracker), June 01, 2001.


Polly,

When I can smell something fishy in one part of the propaganda, er.. I mean "news", then why should I blindly believe the rest of it?

"And Northern Lights, the local power company, said that contrary to previous reports, the house has had electricity throughout the standoff". It looks like the propaganda machine tweaked another little "fact" about the house having no electricity, now doesn't it?

What "fact" will be found to be an outright lie next? The lack of a well? The mother's mental state?

As I said earlier, I don't know enough about the situation to pass judgment, but I do have enough common sense to question what the newspapers say is true.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 01, 2001.

One report said that their well pump had broken.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), June 01, 2001.

And Northern Lights, the local power company, said that contrary to previous reports, the house has had electricity throughout the standoff.

Read a little more carefully, they have had power during the standoff, it doesn't mean they had it before the standoff, which would explain why the water pump didn't work.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), June 01, 2001.


Well, there we have it. According to Buddy, it looks like they do have a well. Are you still here, Polly? Polly?


Cherri,

Thank you for your advice. I will take it into consideration. Of course, a well pump (assuming that it is electric) not being supplied with power is a different thing altogether than a broken well pump, which may even be manual, for all that we know.

Cherri, now I will advise you to think a little more carefully. After just a few short days, much of what was originally reported as fact has turned out to be wrong (or lies). Give it some thought as to just how much of what has been reported is actually true.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 01, 2001.

NPR's All Things Considered (afternoon news?) reported that "the children are believed to be well-supplied with food and guns."

-- helen (g@h.j), June 02, 2001.

Multiple schlerosis can lead to an inability to swallow in the end stages. If the father refused to leave the home for health care, that could explain how he happened to be malnourished and dehydrated.

Young girls with anorexia nervosa can show signs of malnutrition without the rest of the family also being malnourished.

The mother had dealt with the prolonged illness and death of a family member apparently without outside help. It isn't surprising that she may have some depression. In addition to that, she has been lied to by authorities, arrested, and imprisoned with a higher bail than she can pay. She is allowed no contact with her children and has no idea whether or not her children will survive the standoff. Gee, do you suppose she might have "issues"?

-- helen (h@m.m), June 02, 2001.


Patience, J, patience. I have a family and a job, I can't spend every moment here.

I am very thrilled to hear that, for the moment at least, the family has power and food. Praise the LORD! And I am quite pleased to hear that they do, in fact, have a well, and I hope that this report turns out to be accurate. I am even more pleased that the LORD has touched the heart of the fifteen year-old and granted him the grace and strength to overcome his fear of those who are trying to help. We are praying hard that this situation will come to a peaceful resolve soon.

-- Polly Wanna Cracker (polly@wanna.cracker), June 02, 2001.


Five children have left an isolated house in the US state of Idaho, ending a five-day armed stand-off with police.

A car was seen passing police lines with the children inside early on Saturday evening, and they were taken to a hospital in the town of Sandpoint.

Officials there said they were in good condition and had no injuries.

An sheriff's department spokesman had earlier said that he was optimistic that the stalemate - at the small township of Garfield Bay in the north of the state - was near an end.

The three girls and two boys had refused to give themselves up, after their mother was detained by police on child neglect charges.

Dogs

When police went to take JoAnn McGuckin's children into custody, the five set their pack of 27 dogs on the officers.

A sixth child, 15-year-old Benjamin, left the house on Thursday and has been co-operating with the authorities.

The oldest of the McGuckin children, 19-year-old Erina, left home recently and had also been helping police communicate with her younger brothers and sisters.

It was Erina's concerns that led to her mother's arrest.

JoAnn McGuckin is now being held with bail set at $100,000 and is due to appear in court on Monday.

Financial hardship

The standoff was believed to have been initiated by Benjamin who is reportedly well-versed in survival techniques.

His siblings, aged 8 to 16, were thought to be armed with an array of weapons, including rifles.

The family was said to have become deeply reclusive since JoAnn's husband Michael contracted multiple sclerosis and died three weeks ago.

The family had faced increasing financial hardship since their sawmill business went bankrupt over a deacde ago.

Sheriff's deputies had been careful to avoid any confrontation - remaining out of sight and hoping that the children would eventually end the siege by themselves.



-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), June 02, 2001.


Rumor has it that Joanne McGuckin ate her first batch of young right after giving birth. They said it had something to do with the water and because the winter was quite long with little sunlight.

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 03, 2001.

Give it some thought as to just how much of what has been reported is actually true.
-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 01, 2001.

J, you know, you are right, the media is more concerned with grabbing viewers then telling the facts, they seem to believe they have a free license to elaborate, and do so in extreme more and more all the time.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), June 03, 2001.


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