A Boogey Man under every rock?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

Got this in my email yesterday, part of a discussion group to which I belong. I look forward to reading any thoughts on the issue. I'll hold back on my thoughts until you've had a chance at it -- although the title MIGHT give you a clue . . . . .

BTW, I found the name of the "protester", Kimberly Clark-Paul to be amusing. Kimberly-clark, based in Neenah, Wisconsin, is the maker of Kleenex. I am guessing that her parents were NOT from Wisconsin . . . .

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2001.05.14 CNS: Wicca, Ecology Debated in Michigan School Controversy

By Jason Pierce CNSNews.com Staff Writer May 14, 2001

(Editor's Note: CNSNews.com Staff Writer Jason Pierce attended an Earthkeepers program in early May for this article.)

Port Huron, Mich. (CNSNews.com) - Amid allegations of teaching Wiccan and pagan religion to fourth graders, the fate of an environmental school program in this quiet city on the St. Clair River rests in the hands of school officials.

A 13-member committee has been selected to vote May 21 on a recommendation to send to Superintendent Bill Kimball on whether the Port Huron School District will continue allowing fourth graders to participate in an annual three-day field trip to attend an environmental program called Earthkeepers.

The program is run by Earth Learning Adventures, Inc., a non-profit organization that's been connected with several public schools in St. Clair County for the past 10 years.

In recent months, controversy has descended on the program, which focuses on teaching children about man's relationship to the earth. It includes hands-on lessons covering energy flow, cycling of materials, inter-dependence of plants and animals, and change.

Earthkeepers volunteers say their well-scripted program is designed to teach basic environmental concepts to children and promote an appreciation for nature.

But opponents question some of the techniques used in the program and see what they consider to be distinct parallels with Wicca. Some Earthkeepers activities include having children gather in circles and recite text in unison and establish "magic spots" where children reflect on nature. Some parents deem the use of the word 'magic' as offensive.

'Deep Ecology' Raises Suspicions

Some parents in Port Huron are suspicious of the program because of its author, Steve Van Matre. Van Matre is president of the Earthkeepers umbrella organization, The Institute for Earth Education. Van Matre has also written on a philosophy called "Deep Ecology," which some believe has its roots in Wiccan culture.

One of the major complaints about Earthkeepers and its apparent ties to deep ecology is a belief held by some supporters that for humans to live the same lifestyles as today, there must be a population decrease.

A noted deep ecologist, Arnie Ness, has been quoted as saying that "the flourishing of human life and its cultures are compatible with a substantial decrease of the human population. The flourishing of non-human life requires such decrease."

According to Martin Prout, special projects director of the Port Huron school district and head of the advisory committee that will rule on the Earthkeepers program, educators are more interested in the academic merits of the program than the real or perceived religious and political overtones.

"Any program needs to be evaluated that has been around for around 10 years," said Prout. "We are looking at [whether it is] age appropriate and we're looking at whether it has grown with the needs of our state board benchmarks, curriculum-wise."

However, Prout said neither the committee nor the superintendent is overlooking the religious aspect of the controversy. "In all fairness, there were some concerns in the superintendent's eyes about some of the possible symbolism and imagery allegations that were brought out," Prout said.

According to Prout, the Earthkeepers review is part of a larger effort to examine the school district's curriculum as a whole, and he said when he was a principal, he made sure each field trip had relevance to what is being taught in the classroom. Prout said the same is true about Earthkeepers.

"We are reviewing the curriculum and how [field trips such as Earthkeepers] relates," Prout said. "For example, learning about dinosaurs is fun, but if they don't have relevance to what we are trying to accomplish, maybe we don't do a unit on dinosaurs."

Is it Witchcraft?

Emily Wallace, president of Earth Learning Adventures, Inc. and head of the Earthkeepers program, said her staff's efforts are directed toward educating children about the world around them, not pagan religion.

"This is an environmental program for kids that teaches them about how they can take care of the earth, where their food comes from, and what kind of personal actions they can take to improve the environment," said Wallace.

According to Wallace, the group has "taken great pains to make sure that we are sensitive to the religion issue by not addressing issues of evolution or creationism."

Wallace added that the main focus of Earthkeepers is to help kids to "understand that there are limited resources and they can be helped by personal actions such as not wasting food, recycling and small things like reusing their lunch bags."

Objections to the program based on religious beliefs were dismissed by Wallace, who said that deep ecology is "not an affront to Christianity, not a religion, just a set of ideas and logic," and just because "some group out there of deep ecologists are doing weird things doesn't mean we are promoting that religion."

Deep Ecology Explored

Wallace contends that the group's ties to Van Matre and his endorsement of deep ecology does not indicate that Earthkeepers teaches the philosophy, even though the creator of the curriculum holds those beliefs personally.

"Just because the author of the program uses the term 'deep ecology' in some of his writings, we aren't pushing any kind of weird religion," Wallace said. "Deep ecology means different things to different people. To us, it means being accountable for your own actions and looking at your relationship to the Earth."

Believers of the deep ecology philosophy say the "central idea is that we are all part of the earth, rather than apart and separate from it," according to numerous Internet web sites and publications.

The Earthkeepers curriculum shares some of these concepts in lessons on certain systems such as the water cycle, which involves concepts about evaporation, condensation, rain and runoff. Moreover, deep ecology critics claim that because the philosophy teaches about population control, fourth graders in Port Huron are being taught to think about issues such as abortion and euthanasia. But Wallace downplayed those concerns, saying the Earthkeepers curriculum teaches no such issues and goes to great lengths to make sure nothing of the sort is mentioned in the program.

"We have been accused of preaching deep ecology, promoting things like abortion and eco-terrorism," Wallace said. "None of it is true. We are just teaching kids about taking care of and enjoying the earth around them."

Wallace was contradicted in part by Van Matre's own book, Earth Education, in which he writes that his Earth Education Institute is the teaching arm of the deep ecology movement.

"As if the Earth is our horn of plenty, and all of this is here for our benefit if we just do a little better job of managing it," he writes. "We don't believe that in Earth education. Earth education aims to infuse all the messages of deep ecology."

Questions of Religion, Academics Raised

The controversy in Port Huron began when Dr. Kimberly Clark-Paul, a local cancer surgeon, attended the first full day of the Earthkeepers program with her daughter and felt uncomfortable with what she saw. Clark-Paul questioned the academic value of the program, and also raised concerns about potential religious overtones.

The Earthkeepers program aims to teach kids about caring for the environment in a simplified and scripted fashion, and includes the introduction of children to a mysterious "wizard" called E.M. As the children begin the program, they are asked to join in a circle for an activity called "Velcro elbows" where the children, their teachers and the Earthkeepers instructor join elbows as if they were stuck with Velcro.

When everyone is quiet, the teacher will imitate the sound that Velcro makes when pulled apart, and begin the lesson. Earthkeepers organizers consider this a fun way of getting the children to focus their attention on the instructor so that they may begin the program.

Children are then led into a dark garage called "E.M.'s Laboratory." It is decorated with different herbs and plants on the walls, and lit only by candles. A short film introducing the program is shown and children are left wondering who E.M. is.

By the end of the program, children find out that E.M. stands for "energy and materials," "my experience" and Me (E.M. spelled backwards).

Another activity involves "speck trails." Specks are water, soil, air and energy from the sun, and the trails are designed to show the evolution of different materials into other materials; rain becoming food for trees, trees becoming food for insects, insects becoming food for animals, and so forth.

"My initial reaction was that this garage did not look like a laboratory at all, and began to question why words like specks were used instead of molecules," said Clark-Paul. "I knew that this was not science, but if it is not science, then what is it?"

From there, Clark-Paul began to question whether use of the term specks was reminiscent of certain American Indian religions, which focus on the four elements of water, earth, air and fire, which in this case is the sun.

Upon further research, Clark-Paul began to find numerous similarities between Wicca and the Earthkeepers curriculum. She claimed that E.M. stands for everything on earth, with which all humans are connected, a principle of both deep ecology and Wicca.

Another concern involves a medallion that Earthkeeper teachers wear around their necks. The medallions include a slice of a small tree trunk with their name on one side, and a symbol on the opposite side that includes four circles with 12 irregular lines radiating from the center and surrounded by twelve dots, which Clark-Paul said closely resembles an astrological chart.

The Velcro elbows activity, in which children gather in a circle, can be likened to the circles in which practitioners of Wicca stand to contain energy flow, Clark-Paul said.

"They are doing things that are very much like things in pagan religions and telling us it doesn't mean anything," says Clark-Paul. "Is it just coincidence that E.M.'s lab looks like a Witch's cove [sic], coincidence that the specks taught in Earthkeepers are the same as the elements of witchcraft, coincidence that the magic spots are similar to pagan meditation, coincidence that the medallion with the symbol has the same shape as the astrological chart?"

Clark-Paul also detailed a parallel scenario between the Earthkeepers program and a hypothetical program linked to Christianity. "If I were going to have a program called Earth Stewardship, and took them to the park and met them in the parking lot and said 'wait, everybody stop and kneel down and fold your hands and bow your head,' and everyone is to do it again, then we go to J.C.'s laboratory, and unlock the secrets of the Earth. J.C. is a master creator, inventor, and we go into this laboratory and it looks like a church with pews everywhere and a pulpit in the front and the instructors with a symbol, a wooden cross, but it doesn't mean anything. J.C. does not mean Jesus Christ, it means Just Cause, so don't think about it, ok? And then you want to know what the first principle is, God created the heaven and the Earth, but it doesn't mean any thing, it is just a coincidence from the Bible."

Clark-Paul also raised concerns about a part of the Earthkeepers curriculum involving four "keys" of Earthkeepers and the lesson that accompany them. The lesson includes having the children take part in a group recitation of the concept behind the keys:

K- Knowledge - All living things on the earth are connected. E- Experience - Getting in touch with the earth is a good feeling. Y-Your actions - Your actions on the earth make a difference. S- Sharing - Helping others improve their relationship with the earth is an urgent task.

Not only did Clark-Paul find the recitation strange, but said that the first principle is also the first principle of witchcraft, which says, "We are all connected - people, plants and animals."

Measuring the Intent of Earthkeepers

Clark-Paul has been aided in her opposition to Earthkeepers by Gary Glenn, who heads the Michigan chapter of the American Family Association.

Glenn maintains that neither his organization nor Clark-Paul began with any suspicions that instructors in Earthkeepers are intentionally teaching witchcraft or deep ecology.

"We start from the assumption that no one in Port Huron is knowingly allowing themselves to be used to teach nine-year-olds about the deep ecology philosophy, but knowingly is the key word," said Glenn. Glenn also stressed that "I don't think anyone would expect that this program designed for nine year olds would be anything but innocent, but you have to look at the stated intentions of the author of the curriculum," he said.

Clark-Paul agreed, saying that while the Earthkeepers instructors may not intend to teach the controversial ideology, the program definitely does.

"I don't have any idea if the people running Earthkeepers are trying to introduce our children to a pagan religion," she said. "What I do know is that the program they are teaching is definitely intended to teach that."

But Wallace argues that Earthkeepers is a simple, well-intentioned program that teaches kids about the environment without any subliminal philosophies.

"We think it is a good idea for the kids to learn about nature in a natural setting, which is hard to do in many schools," Wallace said. "How can you appreciate nature if you are not in it?"

Wallace went on to say that her organization is small and not influential, and she hopes it will remain that way. "We are an organization with no profit, little money and no lawyers, and I feel that we were blind sided with these allegations."

According to Wallace, "We try to teach that we are made up of the same physical materials as a pig or a cow, but we don't get into spiritual matters and take great measures to stay away from issues like the whole creationism-evolution debate."

Wallace also pointed out that Earth Learning Adventures, Inc. holds an Internal Revenue Service non-profit status and that all the teachers in the program are volunteers.

The program costs $35 per student to cover materials, props and small stipends for teachers. Part of the fees are returned to the schools because of grants from several local organizations. Additionally, students and parents are free to opt-out of the program, just as with any other field trip the school would plan.

"If parents don't want their children to go on the field trip, then they have the option to send them to school or keep them at home," Wallace said.

No Compromise in Sight

Both sides of the controversy say there is no middle ground, and there cannot be any compromises made.

Wallace contends that because Earthkeepers is a trademarked curriculum used in Michigan, as well as 30 other states and worldwide, any change to the program would alter it enough to make use of it illegal.

"The program is intended to introduce ecology and show that everyone is connected to the earth and we have responsibilities in it," Wallace said. "You would have to take out all language that speaks about magic and mystery, and add specific scientific terminology, then it is no longer Earthkeepers."

On the other side, Clark-Paul contends that a curriculum whose basis lies in deep ecology has to be removed from the schools. "If they were going to the woods for three days to learn about nature, that's fine. I might question it, but wouldn't give it a second glance," Clark-Paul said. "But the fact that they are having my fourth grade daughter memorize the first principle of Wicca, and having to recite in a dark garage that is supposed to be a wizard's laboratory, and telling her that it is a secret, there's a problem."

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

Answers

K- Knowledge - All living things on the earth are connected. E- Experience - Getting in touch with the earth is a good feeling. Y-Your actions - Your actions on the earth make a difference. S- Sharing - Helping others improve their relationship with the earth is an urgent task.

Oh, Lordy, Lordy, my kids are being brainwashed into taking care of the earth. Dang! Next thing you know, these witch-bitches will be telling my little darlings that there is more to life than the bottom line.

Such SACRELIDGE!

JOJ

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


I am familiar with Project WILD curriculum since I took the training some years ago.Fun,interesting projects and activities.I am not familiar with Earthkeepers particular approach. Been out of touch. Is there a website for learning more about the Earthkeepers approach?

Sounds like an exageration,but would not want to comment without seeing the material being discussed.Can't imagine it would be much different than WILD,but it could be.

JOJ-liked that witch-bitch reference.Funny.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


The article says that The Institute for Earth Education is the "umbrella" organization, so here is their site: The Institute for Earth Education

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

Phooey! Screwed up again. At least the link worked for me. If it doesn't for you, here is the URL: http://www.eartheducation.org/default.asp

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

So what's the difference between philosophy and religion? If you want to call an "Earth loving" philosophy a "religion", that's a subjective call. IF you call it a "religion", even then it's not obvious to me whether it should or shouldn't be allowed in schools in compliance with freedom of religion.

I'd like to know what the parents who don't like the word "magic" tell their kids about Santa Claus.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001



Don't forget the Easter Bunny laying eggs and the Tooth Fairy bringing money,David.

Went to the site and reviewed what they had,which was a brief synopsis of the material covered.They claim to be more encompassing than Project WILD,but I couldn't see it from what was there.One thing I did see that sends a Red Flag to christian groups was there use of outcome based curriculum.When we had education reform here in KY (badly needed,I might add) abt.10 years ago,the big stink was over the use of outcome based curriculum. "You are teaching our kids morals.That is our job as parents"

Well,that is correct,it is. However,some parents do fall down on the job, in that area.

Besides when didn't you learn some morals in school.Let's see,we had a moment of silence and pledged the flag every morning.Wasn't that teaching morals? We were read stories that had lots of morality in them. Teaching morals? I don't think the argument is abt. teaching morals,but rather who's morals.And that is what this issue is about also.

Personally didn't see alot that bothered me,much has already been done along these lines with girl scouts,etc. Wizard, magic, circle..all seemed fine and just a way of getting a kid's attention,it seemed.I just did't see it as pagan or not,either.

But without seeing the whole curriculum,I couldn't say for sure what the perceived problem is. Probably boogiemen. :o)

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


This woman has her some of her 'facts' wrong. For instance, there is no "official" First Principle in Wicca.

But one of the most galling things is that this is an OPTIONAL field trip. She is free to prevent her children from participating -- her choice. She is attempting to prevent other parents from having it as a choice.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


I've been a deep ecologist for years, but never have I heard it equated with wicca (which I have nothing against.) I don't know of any other deep ecologists who practice wicca either.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

I must finally admit to my ignorance. I have never heard of wicca until participation on these forums. Could someone please direct me to some reading or a link explaining so I would have a clue as to what is actually being discussed here??? Thanks

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

I have to admit that prior to this I really didn't know the definition of deep ecology.

I did a search and came up with the following:

Deep ecology is founded on two basic principles: one is a scientific insight into the interrelatedness of all systems of life on Earth, together with the idea that anthropocentrism - human-centeredness - is a misguided way of seeing things. Deep ecologists say that an ecocentric attitude is more consistent with the truth about the nature of life on Earth. Instead of regarding humans as something completely unique or chosen by God, they see us as integral threads in the fabric of life. They believe we need to develop a less dominating and aggressive posture towards the Earth if we and the planet are to survive.

The second component of deep ecology is what Arnie Naess calls the need for human self-realization. Instead of identifying with our egos or our immediate families, we would learn to identify with trees and animals and plants, indeed the whole ecosphere. This would involve a pretty radical change of consciousness, but it would make our behavior more consistent with what science tells us is necessary for the well-being of life on Earth. We just wouldn't do certain things that damage the planet, just as you wouldn't cut off your own finger.

Sounds to me like I might be a deep ecologist (but I'll have to study this subject further to make sure).

BTW - Here's the rest of the article: Introduction To Deep Ecology

P.S. - I would like to know more on Wicca, too, as I'm pretty ignorant on the subject.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001



I'm sure someone knows more than me,but Nick had a friend years ago who was Wiccan.A very nice person as well.It is an earth based, female centered, old celtic spirituality.Many were burned at the stake as witches for their beliefs(so what's new?),thus the witch- bitch reference JOJ made and the association with black magic in many people's eyes.It is not, it is just another way of looking at tihings.Not my particular way,but a way.That's what I know.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

Here's an explanation of Wicca from the Pagan Educational Network at www.bloomington.in.us/~pen

Witchcraft (also called Wicca or simply the Craft) is part of the contemporary dynamic religious movement known as Paganism. It is a nature-centered religion recognized by the federal government which honors a Goddess and usually a God, and uses magic as a tool of personal and global transformation. It draws on religious, political, and scientific traditions throughout history, from Paleolithic Goddess-worship through astrology, Jungian psychology, feminism, and quantum physics. It is characterized by a deep respect for all living things, acceptance of personal and social responsibility, attunement to natural rhythms, healing, achieving balance between all aspects of the self and society, a sense of play and wonder, and the celebration of sensuality. It is a positive, life-affirming spirituality.

History Modern Wicca emerged in the 1950s, after the last British laws against Witchcraft were repealed, when Gerald Gardner published several books describing the Craft traditions into which he'd been initiated. Gardner was motivated by a concern that the Craft was a dying art. Much to his surprise, he found many other underground covens in existence. Gardner, with the help of Doreen Valiente, developed the tradition which bears his name, combining elements from his own coven's work with Rosicrucianism, mythology, Masonry, folklore, and many other sources. Variations on Gardnerian Wicca developed almost immediately, especially in the U.S., as practitioners created systems which met their particular needs. There are now roughly ten major traditions in the U.S., with thousands of variations.

It is believed that the word "witch" comes from the Germanic root "wic," meaning "to turn" or "to bend." The use of the terms "Witch" and "Witchcraft" are controversial among Wiccans, as some practitioners feel these words are loaded with so many negative connotations that they cause more trouble than they're worth. These Wiccans prefer the terms "priest" or "priestess." Other practitioners feel these words should be reclaimed as terms for people (particularly women) with spiritual power. Many Witches consider the healers, midwives, and village wisewomen or cunning men of the past to be their predecessors. These people's practices and beliefs were labeled "Satanic" by Inquisitors eager to end the practice of nature religions. This false stereotype persists to this day.

A Witch's Worldview Generalizations are difficult to make when describing Wicca or other Pagan religions, since there is no doctrine and individuals are encouraged to find their own path. However, most Witches adhere to similar general principles, some of which are described here.

The single most important element that Witches share in common is their adherence to the Wiccan Rede: "If it harm none, do what you will." This maxim encourages personal freedom within the context of community. Many Witches also believe in the Law of Threes or the Law of Return, which states that every energy the Witch sends forward returns to her/him threefold. Therefore, it's better to treat others with love, generosity, and respect, for the Witch receives these things back threefold. Witches generally view the world holistically, seeing all parts of existence, whether spiritual, intellectual, or sensual, as interconnected. One of the most common teachings in the Craft is to love and respect life in all its forms.

This sense of interconnection is seen in the honoring of the Goddess. Most visions of the Goddess are based on the ancient view that she encompassed all life, good and bad. Within the Goddess, there is no split between body and mind, or matter and spirit. Nature is viewed as sacred. Since we are part of nature, we are sacred as well. Witches find joy in the material as well as the spiritual worlds. Sexuality is not something "dirty." Created by the Gods, it is sacred. While some Witches honor a single aspect of the Goddess, others honor the divine partnership of the Goddess and the God. Still others worship many Gods and Goddesses, whether from one culture (such as a Celtic pantheon) or from several. The Goddess is often seen in triple form, as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, while the God may be seen as both the Horned God of the Forests and the Lord of Death and Resurrection. Since many Witches believe in reincarnation, death is envisioned not as an end but merely a natural transition.

Practices & Beliefs This is an area where generalizations are even more difficult to make. However, most Witches perform rituals to mark natural transitions, such the lunar phases, equinoxes, solstices, and traditional agrarian festivals. Witches use ritual to attune to natural rhythms and give thanks for the bounty of the Earth.

Rituals usually involve the consecration of space (usually a circle or sphere), honoring of the four Elements, invocation of deities, and a meal. While it was once considered essential to be initiated by and practice with a coven (usually a group of 3-13 members), there is now widespread acceptance of self-initiated "solitaries" in the Craft. Within the Circle, power is raised through meditation, chants, drumming, dance, or song. This power is used for healing or other forms of magic. Additional activities in the Circle include divination, poetry readings, praying, or enacting dramas (often retellings of ancient myths). Witches are initiated as priests or priestesses of Wicca; Witches participate in religious ritual without a middleman. Most Witches, to one degree or another, believe divinity resides within and can be accessed through the self, and respect one another accordingly.

Setting the Record Straight Witchcraft has nothing to do with Satanism. Satan is a Judeo- Christian concept and the Craft has nothing to do with either Judaism or Christianity. Witches abhor manipulative and exploitative acts, such as are often attributed to Satanists. Witches do not accept the concept of a personification of evil. They do not seek power through the suffering of others. Witches are essentially healers, whether they heal broken bones or broken spirits. Witches are not anti- Christian (or against any other nurturing faith). Pagans of all paths respect the individual's right to freedom of worship. Pagans do not prosyletize or ³recruit.² Instead, they trust individuals to discover the spiritual path most appropriate for them.

Two things which have often been misunderstood by the public are the Book of Shadows and the pentagram. The former is a compendium of a coven's or a Witch's laws, ethics, rituals, spells, training techniques, and experiences. The pentagram, or five-pointed star, has been known since Babylonian times and represents, among other things, protection, the human body, the hand, the element of Earth, and perfect balance. The inverted (point down) pentagram is used as a symbol in the second-degree initiation in Gardnerian Witchcraft, but in general the pentagram is shown in the upright position. Some Pagans feel the inversion of the pentagram by Satanists is as much a corruption of the Craft as is Satanists' inversion of the cross a corruption of Christianity.

Lastly, while terms such as "white Witch" or "black magic" may seem like good clarifiers to separate Witches from Satanists, the terms are actually inherently racist and most Witches do not use them. Male Witches are not called "warlocks," as this term derives from the Anglo-Saxon term for "oathbreaker."

Witchcraft is a dynamic, demanding spiritual path, based in personal growth, natural rhythms, and an intense relationship with Divinity. Healing the self, the community, and the Earth, Witches are making positive contributions to create a healthier world.



-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


My youngest sister lives in Port Huron, and the rest of my family is about 30 minutes away. Port Huron used to be a quiet little town on the banks of Lake St Clair. Now it's been overrun by Yuppies trying to escape Detroit. They commute down I-94 every day in their Lexus SUVs, and spend the weekend roaring about in their speedboats, tossing beercans and cigarette butts over the side. No wonder they're afraid of their children learning about ecology.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

Could someone explain the difference between calling for magic to make something happen and praying to God to make it happen?

I once asked a born-again fundamentalist why we couldn't just agree on everything by me using the word "nature" wherever he would use the word "God". His answer was that the question showed how little I understood!

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Sherri, thank you for taking the time to post this information. I was really feeling very ignorant whenever this was being discussed and have not really had time to visit the library for quite some time. I am trying to understand why Christians would be in conflict with "deep ecology". I have always felt very interconnected with my environment (I actually hug some of my most favorite trees and pet some of my flowers etc.) and until I started visiting the forums I had not been aware that it was so terribly odd. My personal opinion is that most of us just are too ego centric to realize that we are not more important than the other living things around us.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


I haven't had any time to read all this yet, maybe if I come in early tonight from working outside. This is long!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001

No problem Diane. I was just elected the spokesperson for our local Pagan education and networking organization, so this is good practice for me. (Moral of the story: don't be in the restroom when an important vote is being taken! )

From my limited discussion of the ecology movement with various Christians, the impression I get is that they feel that deep ecology leads one to "worship the creation rather than the Creator". IMO is just a matter of respect. If someone (the Creator) gives you a beautiful and precious gift (the Earth), it would be extremely disrespectful and stupid to trash that gift. My best friend knit me a beautiful sweater for my birthday, I'm certainly not going to wear it while I'm changing the oil on my car!

Regarding the news story, if standing in a circle and chanting is training in Wicca, then any child that's ever played "Ring Around the Rosey" must be a Witch!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Sherri,

Who are.....Inquisitors? I'm still reading this, it's interesting. And it helps me to understand by reading about it all. thanks.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Sherri, In my personal experience I find that I can worship the Creator and be at one with the Creation and that invokes the "magic" if you want to call it that.......the power arising out of the "force of basic goodness" which I chose to call God. All of Creation has a life force that when appreciated and nurtured can be used in a positive way for the benefit of healing....both physically and spiritually. Could we be talking about the same thing.....just in different "form"???

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Cindy, that refers to the Inquisition of history -- anyone suspected of heretical behavior/thought/deed were taken into custody and tortured until they confessed (which many did just to end the torture), whereupon they were given the relative mercy of burning at the stake or hanging or some other 'quick' means of dispatching the now-confessed heretic. This wasn't all 'witches'-- Jews and many others were put to death. Many neighbors 'turned in' their neighbors, either out of fear for themselves or out of malice and greed. There have been wide-ranging reports of how many were killed. Recent research indicates that it was far fewer than some of the wilder claims (which have gone up to, I believe, 9 million). Still not a pretty part of Church history.

Diane writes: All of Creation has a life force that when appreciated and nurtured can be used in a positive way for the benefit of healing....both physically and spiritually. Could we be talking about the same thing.....just in different "form"???

Many Pagans would agree with you. Most Christians would not. Probably not Muslims either. Don't know about the Jewish . . . .

John has repeatedly posted on CS about the possibility of a mere difference in perception. Few agreed. Most of those who agreed are here.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


I've been soaking this all in and thinking about a response and I hope I can express myself as well as the others. I read John's ideas many times over at CS about difference in perception. At the beginning I thought there could be no other way. I was struggling so hard to be part of the Christian world that I couldn't accept his thought then. I wasn't raised Christian but since it is the biggest western religion I gave it my best. Then I got to thinking why should I have to try so hard to be something that should be so natural? I agreed with so much of the teachings yet also disbelieved as much. It was very stressful to be a Christian for me. When I started to follow what my heart and my logic told me it became much easier and much more fulfilling. I am on a differnet path now that follows the things I agreed with and so much more. I've been reading a book about alternative sanitation and it talks about philosophies around the world ( Zen, Buddhist, Hindu, Tao, etc,) and their view of the earth. Most look at our relationship with earth as symbiosis. The Christian view is of humans as being an omnipotent creature here to have dominion over the earth and use it at will. That all things were put here FOR man. It states that in the creation story we are to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. I've always had a hard time with that! It's the ego vs. the eco! I'm responding to Diane's question about why more Christians don't look at nature the same as she does. In history when Europe had all the plagues and pestilences it was the church view that the cause was the wrath of God or the malice of Satan. Satan's malice was being carried out by witches. That is where "noone should suffer a witch to live" comes from. It never occurred to them that they were causing it themselves with unsanitary conditions and that it was nature's response.

If John or anyone else thinks his posts at CS were a wasted effort you are wrong. He really gave me the motivation to think for myself.Some of Sherri C.'s comments were thought provoking as well. She has been very helpful!

David asked if praying for something to happen and calling for magic are the same thing. Well I believe it's very similar. Those who call for "magic" are using their emotion, will, and need for something to bend enrgy or change energy. I think prayer could be the same sort of thing. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, just like prayer.

I don't claim to be an expert but am just throwing out some of my feelings as to why Christians would be so against this movement. And by no means do I wish to offend anyone. Have a great day!

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


First off, I'd like to thank everybody for the interesting sites... As a practitioner of both deep ecology (self-termed) and Witchcraft (Wicca - or not), I found them all quite interesting!!

See Debra - now you DO know someone who practices both... at least by definition, lol!

Sherry - they call Wicca, witchcraft and paganism CONTEMPORARY????? How interesting. On the surface, the explanation is somewhat incorrect. I will go over to the site and peruse before making any more comments on this.

Oh well... dictionaries in todays world are utterly useless anyway.

As for Mrs. Paul, I didn't see much of anything relating directly to paganism in the curriculum, though I saw quite a bit that could be construed as such. While I think her arguements are way off base, I can see where there could be trouble. The symbolism is there, though in many cases, Paul has a skewed concept of the symbolism she has a problem with. So, they become an easy target for people who think they have the only dibs on the First Amendment... This will ALWAYS be the case.

I also agree that this is typical 'boogie man' stuff. There are some things that the authors of the curriculum NEED to change - even from a Pagan perspective. But, they aren't teaching paganism as such.

For instance... The first thing I thought of when EM was mentioned was "Earth Mother"... Other associations using the examples given would be 'magical energy' etc etc. The fact that he/she/it is a wizard doesn't help much either.

My personal jury is still out on reciting anything in a circle where hands are linked. That DOES create a 'magical spot' - even if the participants/organizers/audience members are not aware of it. This is playing with fire - it does NOT matter WHAT the intention is. As Mrs. Paul would say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

The folks using this corriculum would be better off teaching the same things with the use of less inflammatory imagery and language. After all... is their goal to be right, or to teach something of value?

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001


Sherry -

I concede... I read everything I could get out of their site, and checked other sources, and for the purposes here, the definition works, though its incomplete. Heck... its all just labels anyway - I shouldn't get so caught up in it. They seem to be doing some great things - wish I'd have heard of them while I was still in business... They could have helped with a lot of things I struggled with - of course they were just 'babies' themselves at that time, lol!!

You did a great job with the beliefs part, THANKS. I don't like being the only one doing that... Mine is not THE opinion, after all!!

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001


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