I enjoy an occasional drink. This modest indulgence does not make me a raging alcoholic. In my opinion, a moderate consumption of alcohol can be incorporated into a successful, healthy life.

Most Christians incorporate faith into life without obsession or excess. The anti-religious on this forum, however, see persons of faith as wild-eyed extremists. Flint appears convinced religious "godballs" cannot utter a prayer without thinking about imposing a modern theocracy.

As in any human activity, there are some fanatics. There are football fans who paint their bodies and cheer half-naked in winter weather. Some people can enjoy a social drink while others allow alcohol to devastate or kill. It is unwise to judge any human activity by the behavior of the extremists.

At its core, Christianity is a simple, personal faith. Most believers are content with a freedom to worship and have no desire to shove the Bible down anyone's gullet. Speaking of the Bible, many Christians understand that the Bible is a collection of divinely-inspired stories, stories that help one better understand the nature of God. The Bible also provides practical advice on living a happier and more meaningful life.

From a different perspective, the message of Christ is a revolutionary political philosophy. During his time on earth, Christ spent his time with the outcasts of society, the poor, the lame, the diseased, the damaged. He demonstrated that the mandate of loving one's neighbor must extend to all. He warned that the pursuit of material wealth often interferes with our spiritual growth and development. Powerful stuff.

Some Christians, myself included, do not feel Christianity holds a monopoly on divine inspiration. There are some striking similarities between Christianity and other faiths. Many Christians acknowledge that God may have spoken to other cultures in other voices. The mandate of Christianity is to tolerate and embrace, not divide and conquer.

Like any human endeavor, Christianity has had its failings. The Roman Catholic Church of the Middle Ages was a political structure, not a theological extension of Christ's message. This is why some spiritual Christians look askance at organized religion. In the building of an institution, the true revolutionary message of Christ is almost always lost.

Practical Christianity is living a "kinder, gentler" life, caring for our fellow human beings and practicing Christian virtues. From my perspective, this makes modern society a better place to live.

Finally, the choice to believe in God is not a mental illness or a broken neural pathway. It is not a character flaw, a defect or the product of early childhood training. Faith does not diminish the ability to reason or think.

As spiritual entities, we can grow, or we can shrink, twist and harden. The message of Christianity is not to fear "damnation," but to strive for spiritual growth, to use the limited years of our physical life wisely, to love more and acquire less. Christianity is not the man preaching on the city street corner or the television. It is the stranger who gives freely to one in need and then melts quietly into the stream of humanity.

-- The shadow (knows@gain.com), May 23, 2001

Answers

Well said. Thanks.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 23, 2001.

Most believers are content with a freedom to worship and have no desire to shove the Bible down anyone's gullet.

True. That is part of the problem. Christ gave Christians the 'Great Commission' to spread the good news. Not sit on their salvation.

Matthew 28:19-20 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

The mandate of Christianity is to tolerate and embrace,

I'm afraid that is a lie.

Jesus said in John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is very 'intolerant' here wouldn't you agree?

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 23, 2001.

Through me, then babtism would not be in the name of father son and holy ghost, but in name of Jesus Christ.

-- i can see you budy (the@shadows.lars), May 23, 2001.

AC, there are many ways one can "go and make disciples of all nations". You get more by using honey than you do using vinegar. To "shove the Bible down anyone's gullet" in my mind is the vinegar approach. Setting good examples is the honey approach.

"No one comes to the Father except through me." Once again why should that contradict tolerate and embrace. Jesus did tolerate and embrace, didn't he do just that with his executioners? We follow his example and we reach the Father.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 23, 2001.

Maria, you cannot reason with a zealot.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 23, 2001.

Sounds like you have a bit of an obsession with alcohol. Be careful or you'll end up like one of those wino preachers, filling their glass a little more each day.

-- (praise the lord @ hiccup. buuwaaap!), May 23, 2001.

Your contempt of Christianity seems to cloud your judgement, AC. The Bible is not a long legal contract. The stories of the Old and New Testament are just that: stories. As Maria aptly notes, we learn more by the examples of Christ's actions than by the imperfect recounting and translation of his words.

What Christ demonstrated was a profound love, particularly for the less fortunate. Should the message of love, tolerance, patience and peace be shared? I think so, but in a loving, tolerant, patient and peaceful manner. Your narrow view of Christianity treats faith like a singular key that opens a singular door. You may find some fundamentalist Christians who share your perspective. On the other hand, some enlightened theologians and practicing Christians see the greater message of Christ as inclusive, not exclusive. The good news, we'll both know which interpretation is correct soon enough.

-- The shadow (knows@gain.com), May 23, 2001.

yes indeed, the ''wonder'' of GODS SALAVATION'' is the gospel of [good-new's]like st.paul said''not [I] but Christ[spirit] IN ME, THAT IS DOING THE=WORK'S!!false xianity=focuses on who [we] are,what[we] can do-what[we] should be.CART before the horse-leads too a bad-trip!!

JESUS [in] us is ''the WAY''

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 23, 2001.

Maria

Two men are seated on a plane. The first is given a parachute and told to put it on as it will improve his flight. He's a little skeptical at first because he can't see how wearing a parachute in a plane will improve his flight. After a time he decides to experiment and see if the claim is true. As he puts it on he notices the weight upon his shoulders and the difficulty in sitting upright. However he consoles himself with the fact he was told the parachute would improve the flight. So he decides to give the 'thing' a little time.

As he waits he notices that some of the other passengers are laughing at him because he's wearing a parachute in a plane. He begins to feel somewhat humiliated. As they begin to point and laugh at him he can stand it no longer. He slinks in his seat, unstraps the parachute and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart because as far as he was concerned, he was told an outright lie.

The second man was given a parachute and here is what he was told. He is told to put it on because at any moment he would be jumping 25,000 feet out of the plane. He gratefully puts the parachute on. He doesn't notice the weight upon his shoulders or that he can't sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would happen to him if he jumped without that parachute.

Lets analyze the motive and the result of each passengers experience. The first man's motive was to put the parachute on solely to improve his flight. The result of this experience was that he was humiliated by the passengers; he was disillusioned and somewhat embittered to those that gave him the parachute.

As far as he's concerned, it's gonna be a LONG time before anyone gets one of those on his back again.

The second man put the parachute on solely to escape the jump to come. Because of his knowledge of what would happen without it, he has a deep rooted joy and peace in his heart knowing he's safe from sure death.

This knowledge gives him the ability to withstand the mockery of the other passengers. His attitude toward those that gave him the parachute is one of heartfelt gratitude.

Now listen to what the modern gospel says. It says put on the Lord Jesus Christ. He'll give you love, joy peace, fulfillment and lasting happiness. In other words, Jesus will improve your flight.

So the sinner responds and in an experimental fashion puts on the savior to see if the claims are true. And what does he get? The promised temptation, tribulation, persecution. The other passengers mock him.

So what does he do? He takes off the Lord Jesus Christ he's offended for the words sake. He's disillusioned and somewhat embittered. And quite rightly so. He was promised peace, joy, love, fulfillment and lasting happiness. And all he got were trials and humiliation.

His bitterness is directed at those that gave him the so called 'Good News'. Another inoculated and bitter 'backslider'.

Instead of telling the passengers Jesus improves the flight, we should be telling them they are gonna have to jump out of the plane.

The only way to do this is to show them the consequences of the 'law' and make them understand that no one can live by the 'law' and be sucessful. We need a 'savior' from the 'law'. His name is Jesus Christ.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 23, 2001.

Thanks Jonathan. Yes, it was Ray Comfort. I copied it verbatum from his audio tape. Didn't know about the site you linked to.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 23, 2001.

Sorry, AC, but the parachute is a poor metaphor. Try exercise. The fundamentalist believes the only way to physical health is through a rigorous, disciplined program. To this man, exercise is a necessary task, though joyless. As he runs, sweating under a hot sun, he frowns at those laughing and playing. He is convinced only his method will produce physical fitness. "No pain. No gain."

The liberal Christian understands the gift of human movement and of play. He does think of exercise, but of the pleasure in activity. He smiles and waves at the joggers, the rollerbladers, the walkers and the frisbee throwers. Not only is the man in excellent condition, his joy inspires others.

God is not a tyrant.

-- The shadow (knows@gain.com), May 23, 2001.

Shadow easily understood. But hard to really believe. If one just accepts as you say why then can one not eat drink be merry and die? After all we are all going to heaven anyway? I dont think so.

-- (enjoy@this.thread), May 23, 2001.

yes SHADOW, joy in the=SONshine.

LIKE jesus SAID''WHOEVER has THE SON-HAS=ETERNAL-LIFE. ETERNAL LIFE IS [IN] GOD-NOT=RELIGION.ETERNAL-LIFE IS A PERSON[JESUS] NOT A THING TO STRIVE FOR.

HOW many are enjoying there-salvation???

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), May 23, 2001.

Hell, it has been said, is the absence of God.

Like some, I think of spirituality in more symbolic terms. The notion of "pearly gates" and "pits of fire" strike me as metaphors rather than spiritual subway stops. Personally, I think people who lack (or deny) God suffer, not only in this life but the next. It is not God punishing the "wicked," but the wicked punishing themselves.

Perhaps "judgement" is facing the truth about our lives. I can imagine the horror and shame of Nazi war criminals if they had to look upon the face of God and understand what they had wrought.

I am not saying spiritual growth is easy or painless, but it is not the Calvinistic task some might imagine.

-- The Shadow (knows@gain.com), May 23, 2001.

AC, If I were the man with the parachute, I'd turn to my disillusioned follow man and tell him that ridicule and mockery mean nothing when your heart is filled with love and peace. But I don't look at my religion as a parachute even though it may act like one. I think of it in terms of obtaining an inner peace for me, in this material world. In doing this and fulfilling my destiny, that parachute somehow appears strapped to my back. I didn't knowingly put it on but I've attained the goals that God has in store for me. I guess my point is that I follow my heart and the rest just falls into place.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), May 24, 2001.

AC, irrespective of the source of your story, i afraid that both men have been misled. Jumping from an aircraft at 25000' would result in almost certain death unless the jumper is experienced in HALO (High Altitude Low Opening) techniques.

In free fall it will take over 80 seconds to descend to an altitude where there is sufficient oxygen to maintain conciousness, and if that man pulled his ripcord even 3000' too high then he would certainly lose conciousness. If he pulled his ripcord shortly afterleaving the aircraft (which would be the natural reaction of someoe untrained) then he would be dead.

If you are going to pass on made up stories, then please at least make sure that those stories are credible.

-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), May 24, 2001.

A British plane was burning, falling. Two men were onboard. One had a parachute. He jumped. The 2nd stayed on board trying to control the plane. It was hopeless. He jumped too, without a chute.

As the 2nd man was falling, the first man in the parachute grabbed him as he fell past. In embrace, they looked at each other.

1st man--British?

2nd man--yes

1st man--Oxford?

2nd man--yes

1st man--'omosecksual?

2nd--no

1st man (letting go)--pity

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 24, 2001.

Shadow, we hail from different Church's. Yours is the church of Laodicea. Mine is the church of Philadelphia.

Laodicea

Revelation 3:15-16

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Philadelphia

Revelation 3:8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 24, 2001.

And there was Mother Theresa, Christian, Catholic, and one of the most loving, giving human beings in our time. She freely loved everyone who crossed her path. She said we were all saints. She didn't attempt to force her religious beliefs on anyone. She just took care of people without regard to their beliefs or social status. Was she lukewarm because she didn't condemn anyone?

-- helen (we@re.all.saints), May 24, 2001.