Diane: Questions on Life, the Universe, and Everything Else...

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

Well, I really don't have any penetrating questions to ask you right yet. I decided to start a new thread because the other one had gotten quite long and I didn't want to trample on John's recent thread, either.

I did mention to you in the other thread that I'm looking for books on Buddhism. As I stated then, I really enjoyed Buddhism - Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen. I'm trying to understand Buddhism better and would like to find additional books that explain it more from a Western perspective.

I'm also interested in stripping out the cultural stuff and getting to the core of Buddhism. I'm sure that the four noble truths and the eightfold path are part of that core. But I'm having trouble with the reincarnation and karma parts. They just sound too "new agey" to my skeptical mind. What are your thoughts on that?

Semi-serious question: Can you pick and choose from Buddhism like a "cafateria plan"? Or do you have to accept the whole package?

Oh, and before I forget, I hope you had a good visit with your daughter and grandchildren yesterday.

BTW, anyone else that want's to chime in on this thread please feel free to do so. I'm interested in hearing anyones thoughts on this subject.

And finally, here is the list of books I've assembled so far. I haven't read any of them yet but wanted to share the list to get your input on any that you may have read. I'm also open to suggestions on any other books you might recommend for reading:

The Monk and the Philosopher : A Father and Son Discuss the Meaning of Life by Jean Francois Revel

Choosing Reality : A Buddhist View of Physics and the Mind by B. Alan Wallace

The Bridge of Quiescence : Experiencing Tibetan Buddhist Meditation by B. Alan Wallace

Tibetan Buddhism from the Ground Up : A Practical Approach for Modern Life by B. Alan Wallace

Awakening the Buddha Within : Tibetan Wisdom for the Western World by Surya Das

The Beginner's Guide to Zen Buddhism by Jean Smith

Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryu Suzuki

Mind of Clover : Essays in Zen Buddhist Ethics by Robert Aitken

Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken

On Having No Head : Zen and the Re-Discovery of the Obvious by D.E. Harding

Look for Yourself : The Science & Art of Self Realization by Douglas E. Harding

Face to No-Face: Rediscovering Our Original Nature by Douglas E. Harding

Embracing the Present: Living an Awakened Life by Leonard Jacobson

The Taboo of Subjectivity : Towards a New Science of Consciousness by B. Alan Wallace

P.S. - I look forward to our discussion.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Answers

Well, Jim.....now I am going to have to think about this for a while. And thanks, had a nice visit with daughter and grandkids...too short as usual...had truck trouble but survived. About the books, I think a good many of them have been written in the last 15 or 20 years and I have not read any of them. "Zen mind, beginners mind" is a good one. Shunryu Suzuki wrote a lot of books and they were all good as far as I was concerned. I would also strongly recommend "Meditation in Action", "Cutting through Spiritual Materialism" and other writings by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. He really gets to the heart of Buddhism and cuts through a lot of the fluff.

"I'm also interested in stripping out the cultural stuff and getting to the core of Buddhism. I'm sure that the four noble truths and the eightfold path are part of that core. But I'm having trouble with the reincarnation and karma parts. They just sound too "new agey" to my skeptical mind. What are your thoughts on that?"

I am afraid Jim that, as in Christianity, a lot of the cultural stuff is very much part of the core. Without some of the culture you will miss the core. Reincarnation and karma are very much a part of this very old tradition and the "new agey" people have taken a "shopping cart" mentality and gathered teachings and tryed to come up with a "plan".....IMHO. That is why I strongly recommend to anyone seriously interested in persuing a spiritual path read "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism", practice a basic meditation technique and more or less "prepare the student" and wait "for the teacher to appear".

john leake.....I like the love message you got. Very awsome....which to me would be the real definition of "fear God".... hold Him in Awe. I am still not convinced that that "fear God" thing was ever ment to be a part of any of the Religious traditions. Love God with all you heart and lean not on your own understanding. Love thy Neighbor as thyself. Of course you have to love yourself.....how else would you be able to love someone else. What I dispise in others I always dispise in myself first. Just as we use all the lovely manure in our fields and gardens, so we can use the manure of self and self experience to fertilize our being and work toward enlightenment.

earthmama relayed the Dhali Lama's message of compassion. Wouldn't compassion be love in action????

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001


Oh, wow, other Buddhists here, great! I knew that there were other "closet" Buddhists here besides Earthmama's leanings towards it, now I know I'm not the only one. I pick and choose, so to speak, also, of my Buddhists beliefs, the most important one being compassion for everyone here on Earth, I agree, compassion IS love in action.

I also choose not to eat my fellow Earthlings, at least that I know of, although I am not a vegan, I do eat eggs and some dairy.

I was raised a Lutheran, but felt that something was inherently "missing" in traditional Protestant values, I felt that everybody had the same worth and right to be here as anybody else did, regardless of relegious beliefs.

Glad to see that others share the inquiring mind.............

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001


Hi Guys: I'm gonna chime in here a little. I've been reading Lama Yeshe's book "Introduction to Tantra". I like it because its written very clearly in everyday language.

Something I really appreciate about the Eastern religions, Buddhism and Hinduism, is that there's a strong "mystical" element to them and there's a path within each of them thats more or less tailor made for the differing types of people, rather than the "one size fits all" approach that seems to be prevalent in Christianity. But like Christianity, there's a wide variety of Buddhist sects as there are Hindu sects, all developed around the central teachings.

I agree with Diane on her comments about karma etc.

I also think the comments about the new agers is accurate as far as the cafeteria plan goes but personally I don't find alot wrong with that up to a point. And like Jim, I'm a little suspicious of some of the new age stuff. I've found for myself that I may read something in the Dhammapada that makes sese to me and then run across something very similar to it in the bible. Or other times something will ring true to me and I'll "get it", only to find it elsewhere, written differently. When I'd read the same thing previously I didn't get it and now it makes more sense because I "got it" from another source. I suspect Diane has had similar experiences with her Buddhist training while she reads the bible.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Yes john, it happens a lot for me, finding confirmation for Buddhist "truths" in the Bible.....I have an opinion that makes me suspect among other Christians that God sent different messengers to different people groups carrying essentially the same message taylored to the cultures being presented to. I guess when I talk about the grocery cart mentality I am talking about the "collectors" who gather all sorts of teachings without every implimenting any of them. Just hang them on the wall like a trophy hunter and talk about them and admire them but never, ever surrender to any sort of disciple that would actually help them surrender ego enough to discover any truth.

found this little nugget in my mailbox this morning and decided to share it here.

"If you’re at the beginning of something and everything’s great, then by all means be happy, but do not take things for granted. If you’re experiencing the meanness or betrayal of the world, then by all means be sad, but know that you are not defeated. If you are in the midst of your resurrection and rebirth, then do not forget to praise and give thanks. As mystics, we are aware of the phases of the journey, that the phases might flow more perfectly through our lives."

-Marianne Williamson (from Illuminata)

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Diane and John.You both have said what I have found. And said it much better than I can.

diane,thank you for clarification on the 'Headhunter' aspect.I understand what you were refering to,now.

John,I'll talk to you some more on the other thread, when I read it one more time! Hopefully!

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001



Annie:

I, too, was raised a Lutheran (Missouri Synod) but stopped going to church at about age 16 because - at the time - I simply didn't believe in God and found the idea of having to go to a building (so- called "house of god") and listen to sermons was exceedingly strange.

Diane: Thanks for the book recommendations. I've put them at the top of my list and will definitely read them when time permits. :-)

I'm still mulling over what you all wrote and I'm trying to formulate a response. This is not easy for me as I have - over the years - mostly cultivated my scientific, skeptical side and haven't really cultivated a spiritual side.

And, because of that, much of what you all write about is hard for me to understand. If I had to describe it I guess I'd say it's kinda like trying to interpret a foreign language but not having much luck. That's not meant as an insult to those of you with spiritual beliefs, just an observation on my part.

Having said all that I really want to ask you all a few questions if you don't mind. I'm hoping that your answers will help me better understand where you all are coming from. And maybe it will help me better understand myself. I hope none of you take offense for my asking these questions...

Here they are:

Why are we here?

Why is there something rather than nothing?

Do you believe in a God or Gods? If so, why? If not, why not?

If you believe there is a God, why did "it" go to the effort of creating us and why does "it" then put us through all sorts of situations? To what end?

I look forward to all of your responses. And I should also remind everyone (especially to any lurkers who might decide to post to this thread) to please keep this discussion civil. I'm looking for people's personal *opinions* on the preceeding questions. Please follow the rules and don't proselytize or witness to this forum or to this thread.

Thanks.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Jim: Your reading list is impressive. How about book reports when you're done? (just kidding) BTW, I'd suggest just one more "The Seth Material" by Jane Roberts. It was one of those books that was a "landmark" for me and it opened whole new vistas of understanding. I found it really helpful for understanding some of the concepts in Buddhism, Hinduism etc.

As to your questions, here's my take on things, but first a comment. Personally I don't think science and spirituality are mutually exclusive. Notice the Hindus refer to yoga as the SCIENCE of yoga, that is they believe that consciousness does indeed operate according to specific laws relating to energy, some of which are just beginning to be understood by western science. Bear in mind these folks have been studying this stuff for THOUSANDS of years so its hard not to give them some credibility. Its all cause and effect and, I think, has at least something to do with polarities etc.

Now on to your questions:

You ask "Why are we here?" I dunno but I'm pretty sure we are here. Beyond that, believing as I do that we do indeed have an immortal component to ourselves as discrete entities in this eternal and infinite universe, it seems likely within that context, assuming its true, that we are eternally evolving entities. That goes back to the reincarnation and karma question you asked in the intro to this thread. The short answer is to learn to live, in the fullest spiritual sense.

The Seth Material mentioned earlier introduced me to the idea of a multidimensional reality, that I later confirmed within numerous other "mainstream" religions.

"Why is there something rather than nothing?" Personally I believe the material universe is an eternal thing, one piece of an eternal triad, physical, SPIRITual and "SOUL"( A fairly common theme in esoterica).

Certainly the universe changes. Solar systems, galaxies etc come and go, all governed by the engine of change---cause and effect. Contrary to common scientific thought I don't believe in a beginning and end to the material universe, despite the big bang theory. I suspect what they'll eventually find is they've confused the singular mechanism of creation/dissolution with a singular birth of the entire universe. In other words multiple big bangs as localized events in the infinite cosmos. Or perhaps they've stumbled into the birth of consciousness with their mathematical theories and confused it with the "creation" of the universe. Dunno. just some thots.

"Do you believe in a God or Gods? If so, why? If not, why not?"

Hinduism and several other ancient religions had a heirchical vision of reality. Beginning with the source---GOD, and "devolving" lesser "gods" such as angels, etc. If you view the universe and consciousness as manifestations of energy then its not too much of a leap to see how "discrete gestalts" of energy with consciousness could have come into being. It kinda relates to Carl Jungs idea of archetypes. I see it as something like matrices interacting with other matrices.

"If you believe there is a God, why did "it" go to the effort of creating us and why does "it" then put us through all sorts of situations? To what end?"

Thats a good one. Dunno fer sure but heres some thots. Personally I don't believe in a "creator" God as I believe the universe has always been, always will be. Certainly, there will always be change--- creation and dissolution. So what if the galaxie is 40 million gazillion years old. Whats that in the face of ETERNITY, its still temporary and fleeting. They say we live in a universe where change is the only constant. I say---not quite. The laws that govern change must also be a constant too.

Lets just say, for the sake of discussion, that the above supposition is true. Then what if Urg, the neanderthal medicine man was sitting on a rock one day whilst contemplating the mystery around him and he has an epiphany and "sees" into the nature of reality for a moment. Urg, being no dummy, figures this is important stuff so decides to pass it on to his apprentice, and so he does. As the lineage continues the knowledge grows deeper, until one day, Urgs distant future anscestor "sees" it ALL and more importantly KNOWS HOW HE GOT THERE. Then, ad that to the idea that Urg's future anscestors also discovered along the way how to manipulate their consciousness to cause changes in the world around them.

There's an abundance of evidence within the ancient religions that there were folks who could do just that. If so wouldn't these folks have the appearance of being "Godlike".

I guess, in the end, it can be a simple or as complicated as we wanna make it but I'm satisfied that we're put here to learn and grow.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Oh no! Now I have to digest what John wrote today! I just got done thinking about what he wrote two days ago.John,you are burning up my brain cells!

Jim,you don't want much,do you? If I had the answers,I'd give them to you.But if I had the answeres,I'm not sure I'd still be sane.Or,better yet,if I had the answers,I'd be John :o)

And,John,I swear,if I ever had a voice come out of the blue and boom at me,I'd be too scared shitless to ever risk be spiritual again. Good thing I believe we get messages in ways we can each accept(like diane said abt.the messengers).Vague whispers on the wind are about as much as my delicate disposition can endure.:o)

Jim,your moment(moments) of awareness will come when you are receptive,from someone or thing that speaks to you,if you allow yourself to be open to the possibilities.Don't be in a hurry. That observation came from my brain,over time,and not any particular dogma.Just something I came to,logically.

You are part of the web of life.How did that come to be? Mother Nature (woman)? God(man)? Creator(it)? Call it what you will.Makes no difference.I chose Creator.

Science,logic,reason,order

These are not the antithesis of

Mysticism,spirituality,religion,chaos.

They are the left hand and right hand of God..... or opposites of the same coin..... or yin and yang...or ,again,call it what you will.

But they are a pair,not mutually exclusive.

Well,that's the best I got.Wiser sages than I need(John ,again!) to address your concerns.I'll continue to listen in!!!

Yes,Jim,you do think a lot.

Why are we here? Why do we go thru so much? To learn and grow.How else?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Sharon: I think you've nailed it---to learn how to be receptive to the "still, small, voice within". And the reason God had to "yell" was because he needed to get my attention---I wasn't listening before.

One way the universe can be viewed is imagine two columns, or "sets" of complementary opposites.

+ - male female logic intuition white black active passive etc +1 (for a dash of infinity)

The Buddhists have a term called the simultaneously born opposites. I think its a wonderful concept because you can't have creation without the similtaneous destruction.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001


Jim, sometimes the best and most obvious answer to the question, "Why are we here?", is simply, "Why shouldn't we be here?", after all, the cosmic probability that our type of life would NOT have occured eventually in the vast universe is infinitesimally small. Yes, I believe that the reason we are here is that sooner or later it was bound to happen in the great cosmic crap shoot that is life.

Most of the time, we all greatly overestimate our importance and value in the universe, we are just an "accident that happened" that has been lucky enough to survive for a short period of cosmic time. Our continued survival is neither guaranteed, nor absolute, but, again, simply happenstance.

Kind of puts things in a different perspective, doesn't it?

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001



Jim, I am still back on your karma question......now you ask all the REALLY BIG ONES!!! If you use your scientific mind you will see that science takes care of a wonderful karma discription....for every action there is and equal and opposite reaction. What was the old computer thingy....garbage in garbage out?? Karma is kind of like if you are throwing a lot of crap around, don't be surprised if you catch some in the face. Just a basic cause and effect thing.

"Why are we here?" I am tempted to try and get clever here and say "Why not...where would we be if we were not here". Then there is always those theories that we are only here because we Think we are here. If there is a God, which is my personal belief, why would he have almost every spiritual tradition believe that we are created in his image?? Is is a man-ego thing?? In the Bible it says that God is Love. Is everything that is not love not God??

I can not tell you how I found a relationship with a Living God without witnessing. I would share gladly each step I took, but each of us has to have our own journey. The only way I could tell anyone to find God is to seek Him. I was a total anti God person for so many years. It was a real shock to me when I was told by my Buddhist teacher that there was a God. I thought Buddhism was all about NOT GOD.I was actually pretty pissed off at him!! What Buddhism is about is discovering fully what it means to be a human being. When we find who and what we are, we are more able to relate to God. IMHO most traditions put the cart before the horse.

When we seek God from a poverty mentality we are discounting right from the start ourselves, Him and His plan for us as human beings. As awsome as God is, so are we awsome and wonderful beings. On an old CS forum thread I urged people to follow a path. Everyone assumed I ment be Christian and follow Christ. I was more trying to tell people if you are seeking, chose a disciple and follow it.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


make that chose a discipline and follow it....tell me please that it will get better.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

OK, I'm not witnessing, just answering the questions from my own beliefs.

Why are we here.......Then God said, "Let us make a man, someone like ourselves (in our likeness), to be master of all life upon the earth and in the skies and in the seas."

Why is there something instead of nothing......at first the earth was a shapeless, chaotic mass, with the Spirit of God brooding over the dark vapors. Then God created light, separated the vapors to form the sky above and the oceans below. The waters gathered together to form the oceans and let the dry land emerge. Add the sun and moon, and fill the earth with all forms of life.

Do you believe in a God.........Yes, I do. Why? Because I know He's there. I have heard His voice and felt His hand and felt His presence. I have had things happen that could only have happened from God. I have a very deep peace. I have heard the song being sung from a still sky.

Why were we created.........To multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. To be masters of the fish and birds and all the animals.

Why do we go thru struggles............We were given a free will. Most of the time it is from our own or someone else's actions. We make the wrong choices, we take risks, we take chances, we don't just stay in one spot and raise a family and live and die. The earth must have storms and lightning to stay magnitized, the tornados and such are just natural, and sometimes both people and animals are just in the way. God never said we were immune to these things.

Stuggles build our character. What are you made of. Can we go thru life without blaming God for everything that happens to us? God does not make bad things happen or bring sickness on us. Things just happen, it's life. (and IMO humans got too big for their britches and actually changed the earth's natural ecosystems with all the insane practices they thought up) It is no longer safe to live here and it is our fault, plain and simple.

The thing is...we are here, and we just try to do the best we can, use our brains, be a good shepard of our flocks and lands, and not bring harm on others, and strive to do some good in this world.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


Jim, I have been thinking all morning about the witness thing. You want us to share whether we believe there is a God and why but not witness.

Dictionary definition of witness: 1. a. One who has seen or heard something. b. One who furnishes evidence. 2. Anything that serves as evidence; a sign.

Witnessing: l. To be present at or have personal knowledge of. 2. To provide or serve as evidence of.

Exactly how can we "follow the rules" and provide you this sort of information??

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


Sorry for the confusion, Diane.

When I talk about Witnessing & Proselytizing I'm talking about some of the obnoxious behavior that went on over on CS.

Maybe I should have just said "please follow the rules and don't proselytize to the forum or this thread" and left out the witnessing part?

Here's that definition of "proselytize" again. Hopefully it will help you understand what I'm trying to prevent. If not, then let me know and I'll try to clarify further.

Main Entry: pros·e·ly·tize
Pronunciation: 'prä-s(&-)l&-"tIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -tized; -tiz·ing
Date: 1679
intransitive senses
1 : to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2 : to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive senses : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause
- pros·e·ly·ti·za·tion /"prä-s(&-)l&-t&-'zA-sh&n, "prä-s&-"lI-t&- / noun
- pros·e·ly·tiz·er /'prä-s(&-)l&-"tI-z&r/ noun

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001



Ah nuts! I was well on my way to creating a response to you guys and I lost what I was writing. I was creating it in an email and I thought I had saved a copy in my draft folder but I didn't and now it's gone.

Please bear with me while I try to re-create it again from memory. But it may take me a while to get back to you guys. :-(

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


Re-incarnation and karma aren't all that new-agey. The early Christain church taught them. I'll give you my personal view (as a Pagan.... NOT a New-Ager, lol)

"You reap as you sow" is a prime example of the idea of karma. The idea is merely that there is always a consequence for whatever you do - good or bad. It always comes back to you. There is no 'good' nor 'bad' karma... only justice. Justice does not see one side or the other. It only sees a violation of the Natural law, and seeks to balance it's effect.

Reincarnation is the idea that you are given lessons to learn. These lessons are supposed to lead to perfection - the ability to become one with your Creator (atonement = at-one-ment).

It is thought that no one can learn all their lessons in just one lifetime. So, they must come back to either relearn lessons they have failed, or learn their new ones - or both. After all is said and done, all lessons are learned, then we return to our rightful place with our Creator, or God. Or, we come back yet again, to teach others.

With Heaven and Hell, there are no second chances. You either live in paradise, or in torment. I don't see where we've evolved all that much since the Biblical days that we don't still need nine hundred and some years to figure it out. Even then...

Free will comes into this, as do THOUSANDS of other such ideas. Without free will, then the ideas of Heaven, Hell and Reincarnation are mute and worthless. If you can't choose, then everyone lives only one life and winds up in Heaven....

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001


Interesting discussion. If this thread is still active in say, November, I'll be glad to give you my buck-six-ninety. We have a short warm season here and I just have to be out in it, though...

Actually, the thought of trying to explain my spirituality via the internet confounds me. In my case, let's just say that I was called. And called, and called. And called. Finally, I got tired of not answering the big Telemarketer and listened to the pitch (tailored to my demographic! Imagine that!) And then essentially I fell in Love. What's there not to love about Everything...?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


That was beautiful sheepish! you don't sound too confounded to me!

Have a question for you, Cindy.....don't you think perhaps this:

"Why were we created.........To multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. To be masters of the fish and birds and all the animals."

contradicts this:

"The thing is...we are here, and we just try to do the best we can, use our brains, be a good shepard of our flocks and lands,"

??

I mean kinda sorta anyway? Like don't you feel that maybe one of the reasons we don't give a damn as a culture about the environment is because our 'civilization' has inculcated the value of human dominion over and nature/animal submission to, in its overall perspective?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Excellent,Sheepish. Short, to the point, with a touch of humor added for special flavor. How'd you do that?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

thanks sheepish....you handled for me very well!!! Now I don't have to think about how to answer anymore. Blessings............

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

Sheepish,

I loved your response! It brought a big grin to my face. You're quite a lady, you know that?

You also wrote:

Actually, the thought of trying to explain my spirituality via the internet confounds me.

Yeah, I can understand that. I really don't consider myself spiritual but I'm having a really hard time trying to craft a response to all of you. I've got something written out here but I'm just not happy with it and not comfortable posting it. :-(

I may post a few short responses to some of things said here and see what happens from there.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


First of all I want to thank all of you for taking the time to anwer my questions. I really appreciate it.

John:

Jim: Your reading list is impressive. How about book reports when you're done? (just kidding) BTW, I'd suggest just one more "The Seth Material" by Jane Roberts. It was one of those books that was a "landmark" for me and it opened whole new vistas of understanding. I found it really helpful for understanding some of the concepts in Buddhism, Hinduism etc.

Thanks for the recommedation - I've added it to my list. And If you want book reports, be prepared to wait several years. (grin)

"Do you believe in a God or Gods? If so, why? If not, why not?"

Hinduism and several other ancient religions had a heirchical vision of reality. Beginning with the source---GOD, and "devolving" lesser "gods" such as angels, etc. If you view the universe and consciousness as manifestations of energy then its not too much of a leap to see how "discrete gestalts" of energy with consciousness could have come into being. It kinda relates to Carl Jungs idea of archetypes. I see it as something like matrices interacting with other matrices.

Yikes! I think you've lost me here, John. Remember, I consider myself a pre-schooler when it comes to things like this. You, diane, and others on this forum have college degrees and are working on your Masters degrees, IMO.

"If you believe there is a God, why did "it" go to the effort of creating us and why does "it" then put us through all sorts of situations? To what end?"

Thats a good one. Dunno fer sure but heres some thots. Personally I don't believe in a "creator" God as I believe the universe has always been, always will be. Certainly, there will always be change--- creation and dissolution. So what if the galaxie is 40 million gazillion years old. Whats that in the face of ETERNITY, its still temporary and fleeting. They say we live in a universe where change is the only constant. I say---not quite. The laws that govern change must also be a constant too.

I guess, in the end, it can be a simple or as complicated as we wanna make it but I'm satisfied that we're put here to learn and grow.

Sorry but I'm gonna show my denseness again. You state that we are "put here to learn and grow". I can't get past that statement because I then ask the question: "put here by whom and for what purpose?". Are we in some sort of "cosmic college" from which we'll eventually "graduate"? Are we a school science project of some alien child? Or did God create us in the hopes that we'd evolve and become like him so he'd have someone to talk to? Or perhaps we're nothing more than a recording made by our decendants countless millenia from now in an attempt by them to catalog the historical record of humanity. We just *think* we are real but we're really just holograms! :-D

Sharon:

Jim,your moment(moments) of awareness will come when you are receptive,from someone or thing that speaks to you,if you allow yourself to be open to the possibilities.

I'm just gonna have to take your word on that for now, sharon. I've spent the last several years trying to refute God so I guess I haven't been open to any suggestions to the contrary.

Don't be in a hurry. That observation came from my brain,over time,and not any particular dogma.Just something I came to,logically.

Moi? In a hurry? Not me! ;-)

Science,logic,reason,order

These are not the antithesis of

Mysticism,spirituality,religion,chaos.

They are the left hand and right hand of God..... or opposites of the same coin..... or yin and yang...or ,again,call it what you will.

Yes, I can uderstand the duality of life. I've been aware of that aspect for some time: hot/cold, light/dark, sickness/health, life/death, etc. But I've focused on the "tangible" side, the side that can be measured and quantified. The spiritual side is so subjective that it's difficult to incorporate it into my life.

Annie:

Jim, sometimes the best and most obvious answer to the question, "Why are we here?", is simply, "Why shouldn't we be here?", after all, the cosmic probability that our type of life would NOT have occured eventually in the vast universe is infinitesimally small. Yes, I believe that the reason we are here is that sooner or later it was bound to happen in the great cosmic crap shoot that is life.

Most of the time, we all greatly overestimate our importance and value in the universe, we are just an "accident that happened" that has been lucky enough to survive for a short period of cosmic time. Our continued survival is neither guaranteed, nor absolute, but, again, simply happenstance.

Your answer comes the closest in mirroring my own, Annie. It's pretty much where I've been coming from.

Here's an article that you might find interesting on the subject:

Why is There Life? Because, says Britain's Astronomer Royal, you happen to be in the right universe

Cindy:

Do you believe in a God.........Yes, I do. Why? Because I know He's there. I have heard His voice and felt His hand and felt His presence. I have had things happen that could only have happened from God. I have a very deep peace. I have heard the song being sung from a still sky.

I'm really sincere when I say that I'm happy for you, Cindy. I also admit to being a bit envious. :-)

...We were given a free will.

I have a BIG problem with this statement. If God is omniscient (all seeing, all knowing) then free will is an illusion. No matter what decisions we make in our life, God already knows the outcome therefore nullifying free will. We simply have the ILLUSION of free will. That's one of the BIG issues I have and why I have trouble believing in the idea of a creator (especially the Judeo/Christian God which is taught as omniscient and omnipotent).

Diane: I'm not avoiding answering you, just having difficulting trying to respond to your thoughts on karma.

Jim, I am still back on your karma question......now you ask all the REALLY BIG ONES!!! If you use your scientific mind you will see that science takes care of a wonderful karma discription....for every action there is and equal and opposite reaction. What was the old computer thingy....garbage in garbage out?? Karma is kind of like if you are throwing a lot of crap around, don't be surprised if you catch some in the face. Just a basic cause and effect thing.

I can understand that to a degree but Buddhism believes that karma may not manifest in this life. It may happen somewhere "downstream" in another incarnation. At least that's what I've come to understand of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, because they speak of karma affecting someone in another life, I'm naturally skeptical.

That's all I'm going to say for now as my head hurts from thinking about all of this... :-/

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Earthmama, I don't think the words "masters or subdue" gives anyone the right to abuse the earth or the animals. Like a wild horse, we can catch one, tame it, ride it, train it to pull wagons, even breed them and domesticate them, but we still don't have any right to kill them all and wipe them out because they are in our way. We can grow crops in dirt the way it started out, but not after we dumped toxic waste on it. I think people give themselves permission to do anything that's a quick fix for the moment, instead of looking at the balance and perfection that was allready here and trying to maintain it.

If some people use those verses as a power trip to do what they want, then they are only reading the parts that suit them. Many times is it written that if you aren't thankful and careful about what you have, you will loose it. Many times it talks about ones lands and crops and animals and to be a good caretaker over everything in your care.

Jim, from all my studies about the will of God, it comes clear that God is not ever going to force anyone to love Him or follow His teachings. Free will. If someone wants to go around robbing banks, they can, He's not going to stop them. Of couse, this isn't the path He would want them to take, but it's their life, they make the choices. We were also given a brain and common sense, if we choose not to use it, it's our own fault. I believe people are what they choose to be, and each day we have a choice to make.

You said "God allready knows the outcome". Think about this. You hold out your hands, palms up, to your child. You have a pea in one hand, and a jelly bean in the other hand. You know allready which one the child will pick, but it's still their choice. And just because God allready knows the outcome, dosen't mean we do. What is the outcome He knows for us? It's in the future, anything can happen or change any day, we don't know what it will be.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Cindy:

Jim, from all my studies about the will of God, it comes clear that God is not ever going to force anyone to love Him or follow His teachings. Free will. If someone wants to go around robbing banks, they can, He's not going to stop them. Of couse, this isn't the path He would want them to take, but it's their life, they make the choices. We were also given a brain and common sense, if we choose not to use it, it's our own fault. I believe people are what they choose to be, and each day we have a choice to make.

You said "God allready knows the outcome". Think about this. You hold out your hands, palms up, to your child. You have a pea in one hand, and a jelly bean in the other hand. You know allready which one the child will pick, but it's still their choice. And just because God allready knows the outcome, dosen't mean we do. What is the outcome He knows for us? It's in the future, anything can happen or change any day, we don't know what it will be.

WE may not know what our choices will be but God supposedly does. And if God knows the ultimate outcome then free will is an ILLUSION to us.

Think of life as an LP record. The grooves in the record are our life, we are the needle playing in the record. We may not know where the record ends but because God is supposedly *omniscient*, he KNOWS of all the grooves in the record that the needle will move through.

We can't see where the grooves will utimately go becuase we are limited to our perspective on where the needle currently is sitting but the grooves are there none-the-less and because of that our journey is predestined (play the record over and over again and you'll still hear the same songs). If God is omniscient then free will is an illusion.

Ah, I don't know, I had this discussion with my mom a while back and we were at loggerheads on pretty much what you and I are discussing, Cindy.

We just couldn't get each other to understand our points...

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


You said "God allready knows the outcome". Think about this. You hold out your hands, palms up, to your child. You have a pea in one hand, and a jelly bean in the other hand. You know allready which one the child will pick, but it's still their choice.

Nope. Not gonna work, Cindy. There are MANY times in our lives that we are surprised at the choices that our loved ones make. It shows that we humans are NOT omniscient. If you run your experiment over and over again I'm willing to bet you'll get different results over time. There may be times when you child actually PICKS the pea over the candy. They may want to flick it at their obnoxious little sibling. Or, they may not be feeling well that day (unbeknownst to us) and consequetnly they may well decline both the pea AND the jelly bean.

The point I'm trying to make is that if God knows which one we will pick BEFORE we pick it then the *choice* is in our minds only. We're simply following the grooves in the record that HE set down. We are nothing more than automatons.

Make sense?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Wow, it got really quiet in here...

Did I kill the thread? Hope I didn't come across as strident in my last couple of posts...

I wasn't trying to beat anyone down (especially you, Cindy), just trying to get my point across. Please let me know if I came across as a first-class A**hole because that was not my intent. And I certainly don't want anyone to feel bad...

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Oh Jimmy dear, relax, we are all just as crazy about you as ever.....

(well there I go again, speakin for others..........!! but pretty sure I'm right......)

Dont't really relate to the needle in the record groove thing, sorry.....

I feel like you are soooooooo close to grasping the free will thing......let me give it a whirl.........

"The point I'm trying to make is that if God knows which one we will pick BEFORE we pick it then the *choice* is in our minds only."

No, that's not the way I see it, Jim. The Great Spirit knowing which we will pick in no way negates the fact that we have free will to pick it. To me, the Universal Spirit is at peace knowing we will choose whichever way is best for our journey; there is no judgement involved, it just is at it should be. It is a spirit of all loving and knowing, but part of that knowing is that we humans NEED to utilize our ability to make choices for our own benefit, for our own growth.

Does that make any sense to you?

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Jim: Just some random thots.

Free will: Just because "God" may know the outcome of our various choices doesn't, in my mind, negate the idea of free will. To me the lack of free will would be to have no choice, we would simply have to do this or that, without the intervening thot process that goes into making a choice, which allows us to grow from what we've learned previously.

Certainly, one could argue to the contrary, saying no matter what "choice" we make, it was a predictable "choice" because the laws of probability, factoring in all the nearly countless variables, would lead us to that "choice" but one function of a spiritual path is to free us from "monkey mind" or conditioned reactions to specific stimuli---thus the term "liberation".

I really liked Annies? idea that creation simply is and I don't disagree with that at all. I'm one who likes to dig deeper and come up with concepts that make sense to me but that doesn't take away from the value and legitimacy of the "simply is" explanation. So when I say "put here" take that in the broadest sense. I don't know if we're "put here" by God, aliens or simply nature, I can only say for sure that it sure seems like we are here.

In the "Urg" story above I failed to make the point I was trying to make. As I said I have a hard time accepting the "God created the universe" idea, since I believe the universe has always been, existing within the conditions of constant change described above.

I'd like to try a variation of the Urg story to better make my point. Whether the universe has always been can certainly be debated as it runs contrary to modern scientific theory however I can say with 99+% certainty that NATURE has always been. I think you'll concur that nature does indeed operate according to laws and all that is is a manifestation of energy---also subject to the laws of nature.

Now, back to Urg---basically the same scenario as described earlier but what I failed to describe better is the idea that while Urg and his lineage became more knowledgeable about the laws of the universe they also learned to "attune" their consciousness to those laws. As they "melded" their consciousness to the laws of creation it became necessary to slough off that part of their "identity" that was ephemeral or temporary untill all that was left was their consciousness united with nature. I heard once, strip away from ourselves all that is not necessary and what remains is "God" or Essential Nature. It has to do with the energetic laws of harmony, attuning the consciousness to the eternal "vibes" of the all.

This seems to be so to me because ALL the mystical traditions I'm aware of require approximately the same things from its students and they are unanimous in their "reports" on whats on the "other side".

Once fully "attuned", and understanding their connection with the ALL, they become Godlike. What to me is the really cool thing about it all is the "laws" and the "attunement" and the "path" are inseperable from love, the universal life ethic, IMO.

BTW, I humbly suggest you put the Seth Material near the top of the list because I think you'll find the background developed from that book very helpful as a frame of reference for further study in Buddhism. And its all written in western-speak and semi-scientific with its language. It has been tremendously helpful to me in that role.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


{Jim, gee. I'm blushing....}

Seth Material is interesting reading for anyone. I read it about 21 years ago (okay, no "about"...it was right after my father died and I was really searching for ideas about where he went....)

I remember a lot about dim lights and sitting tired in armchairs. I can't remember if that was because of what was written (I think so, as when Seth was speaking) or how I personally felt when I was reading it!

Maybe I'll pick it up again. Probably right after I get done reading "Last Temptation of Christ." Umm. That would be early 2002...

Right now I'm reading Acts again. Sheesh. How this didn't get made into a major motion picture beats me!

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Well,I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.Everyone has been able to state their positions w/o being verbally burned at the stake or fed to the lions.How refreshing.I see a lot of similarities.Then again,I always do.

I am not particularly comfortable posting any more of my thoughts,bc of my own privacy beliefs,but I am grateful for those of you who are more willing to speak freely.It's been very informative.

Cindy,thank you for explaining your view of the caretaker aspect. That has been an area I've had major problems with in talking to some folks who did take it to mean what I viewed as a rape & pillage approach. You & I are not far apart at all.

Annie, I like that cosmic crapshoot theory too. Works for me.

John,I got it, this round! I think so anyway.Shoot,I hope so.

Jim,if you ever manage to be obnoxious,I'll promise to make sure I let you know :o) How's that?

Uh...You don't have to tell me when I am, tho,I usually do know. I just choose to be.I'm not always nice as pie.Ask Nick! Hey,once in a while,strident is required. Right? Am I right? Hey,did I say something wrong? Oh well. Tough titties.(smirk)

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001


Over on the “A Boogeyman Under Every Rock?” thread, Sherri kindly posted an explanation of the Wiccan religion. Though I don’t consider myself a Wiccan, I share many of their beliefs. Here’s the link:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005IYa

I was typing up a whole long explanation of my spiritual journey, but decided to take a page from Sheepish’s book and be brief and succinct. I was called too, but when I naturally turned to Christ and Christianity, I met with a vast silence. That was NOT where the call originated, for me. Greatly confused, I retreated, still feeling the call, searching to fill that great gaping hole that I felt. While pondering my next move, I discovered Neo-Paganism (most just call it Paganism), and knew that was where I belonged. The emptiness was filled. My life has changed dramatically. Julie can tell you that I am a much nicer and happier person than I used to be, even if she doesn’t know that is why!

Definitions:

Pagan: pertains to a Nature religion or a practitioner of an ancient and/or contemporary Nature religion; also used to refer to a Nature Spirituality, Earth-centered Spirituality, and/or Goddess Spirituality group or practitioner.

Pantheism: the Divine as immanent; the Divine is in everything and everything has a Divine aspect.

[1] Why are we here?

This could be any one of 4 questions. You know, WHY are we here? Why ARE we here? Why are WE here? & Why are we HERE? I’m going with the first one, what is our purpose . . . . I quoted this elsewhere. We’re spiritual beings on a physical journey. We’re here to experience being physical. Experiences contribute to our growth. I believe in reincarnation, that my spirit returns to new body again and again and will continue to do so. Until when? Don’t know. Until the spirit decides its enough? Until spirit evolves some how? Something like that . . . .

[2] Why is there something rather than nothing?

Because I felt/heard the call, and I’ve felt Her touch. (I use ‘Her’ because I think patriarchal prejudices have invested far too much bias towards males, and that the energy needs balancing).

[3] Do you believe in a God or Gods? If so, why? If not, why not?

Yes, though I usually refer to Her as Goddess (see above).

[4] If you believe there is a God, why did "it" go to the effort of creating us and why does "it" then put us through all sorts of situations? To what end?

Don’t believe that we are “created” as separate beings. I believe that “we” are spiritual in nature and all part of the same thing. That the physical aspect is something that Spirit has chosen to experience. And to what end? Perhaps a yearning to learn, expand, grow – maybe something else. That’s why I often call myself a Pagnostic – an agnostic with Pagan leanings.

I don’t think I’ve explained all this very well, but I don’t want to natter on and on. If something isn’t comprehensible, let me know and I’ll attempt a better explanation!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Jim, Jim, Jim. I DO have to go outside and work ya know! I didn't read it untill this morning. You didn't hurt my feelins none, in fact, this is cool, talkin like this. Stimulates the old brain. See, we aren't really that different after all.

Earthmama, I really liked the reference you made to we "need" to make our own choices, for our own growth. The more we make the right choices for us, the better we feel about ourselves and who we are.

Joy, is that like looking thru the eagle's eyes as he is flying, like in that movie, Beastmaster. (I like that movie) re:(That the physical aspect is something that Spirit has chosen to experience)

And John, who's Urg? (just kidding!)

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Jim says "You, diane, and others on this forum have college degrees and are working on your Masters degrees, IMO."

I can only speak for myself here Jim, no college degree here, let alone working on my Masters. Been thinking about this every since you said it. We are all seekers....even if we don't know we are. I have way more questions than answers.

I have really appreciated everyone sharing on this forum. I personally see far more similarities than differences. One thing I am seeing very clearly is that everyone here has a deep connectedness to the earth as well as an appreciation for it, everything that dwells on it, including other human beings. What a wonderful thing!!!

I have been very open on these forums, but then I tend to be a very open person. I have communicated privately with quite a few people through the winter that I have met here and on the CS forum. Strange medium, shared a couple of spiritual conflicts that have only shared with one very close friend in person, and then only on the surface.

Coming in conflict with the more militant Christians on the CS forum, and being kicked out of the neighborhood church and told there was no place for people like me in heaven, has put me on my face before the Lord in a whole new way.

Definately feel like a "Stranger in a Strange Land" but very o.k. with that. I guess for you Jim I would have to go back to the old question my teacher used to ask when I would ask a question. Do you know who is asking the question??? If you can learn who is asking the question, you are way much on to the journey.

Peace, love, joy and blessings to all......the sun is finally shining here and I am about to go out in play in the place I feel most comfortable, the dirt!!!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


You see that latest entry from 'Joy'? Well, actually I wrote that.......I see Guido is at it again......stealin my words!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001

Cindy wrote:
"Joy, is that like looking thru the eagle's eyes as he is flying, like in that movie, Beastmaster. (I like that movie) re:(That the physical aspect is something that Spirit has chosen to experience)"

Hmmm, no, I wouldn't say so. Not like putting something on like a suit of clothes, but becoming that something, in this case, the physical being. I'd call what you're describing more Shamanic, which does happen to be in my current field of exploration & study . . . But maybe I'm not getting exactly what you meant . . .

Mama! I do NOT steal!! I wuz channeling! [sticking my snoot in the air and stalking away!]

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Earthmama:

Oh Jimmy dear, relax, we are all just as crazy about you as ever.....

LOL! That got a good belly laugh out of me. Thanks! BTW, I haven't been called "Jimmy" in maybe 23 years - it brought back memories of my childhood... (grin)

Dont't really relate to the needle in the record groove thing, sorry.....

I feel like you are soooooooo close to grasping the free will thing......let me give it a whirl.........

"The point I'm trying to make is that if God knows which one we will pick BEFORE we pick it then the *choice* is in our minds only."

No, that's not the way I see it, Jim. The Great Spirit knowing which we will pick in no way negates the fact that we have free will to pick it. To me, the Universal Spirit is at peace knowing we will choose whichever way is best for our journey; there is no judgement involved, it just is at it should be. It is a spirit of all loving and knowing, but part of that knowing is that we humans NEED to utilize our ability to make choices for our own benefit, for our own growth.

Does that make any sense to you?

Unfortunately, no, I'm just not grokking your point because it seems to contradict my point. I think what I'm going to have to do is read the book John recommended and ponder what you've all written here. It may be that I'm trying too hard to understand your points when I'm just too early into the game so-to-speak. And I don't want you guys to end up beating your heads against the wall in frustration over my lack of comprehension. (grin)

Cindy:

Jim, Jim, Jim. I DO have to go outside and work ya know! I didn't read it untill this morning. You didn't hurt my feelins none, in fact, this is cool, talkin like this. Stimulates the old brain. See, we aren't really that different after all.

Yeah, I can understand that, Cindy. I just wanted to make sure that I hadn't said something out of line or been strident in my posts. I glad it was work that kept you from answering and not something I said. And I agree, it is cool that we can have a civil conversation on this subject.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Diane:

We are all seekers....even if we don't know we are. I have way more questions than answers.

I'm glad to know that you're in the same boat as me. I've found as I get older that I'm not *nearly* as sure of things as I used to be. I think the more you study and investigate, the more you realize that your understanding of life, the universe, and everthing else is not anywere *near* what you thought it was. At least that's what I'm finding for me. It's a very humbling experience...

Coming in conflict with the more militant Christians on the CS forum, and being kicked out of the neighborhood church and told there was no place for people like me in heaven, has put me on my face before the Lord in a whole new way.

Oh Diane, I'm really sorry that happened to you. Especially with your neighborhood church. That was an awful betrayal against you by those people.

Definately feel like a "Stranger in a Strange Land" but very o.k. with that.

Yes, I've felt that way for quite some time myself so know of what you speak. Most of the time I'm o.k. with it, too, but there are times when it can get lonely. I will say that interacting with all of you on this forum and in email makes that lonliness recede. And for that I'm grateful.

I guess for you Jim I would have to go back to the old question my teacher used to ask when I would ask a question. Do you know who is asking the question??? If you can learn who is asking the question, you are way much on to the journey.

Whoah! That blew my mind, Diane! Is that what would be considered a Zen koan? I've had a fascination for some time with Zen koans and your teacher's question sure sounds like one to me. BTW, my favorite koan is: "Who is the master that makes the grass green?" :-)

Sharon:

Jim,if you ever manage to be obnoxious,I'll promise to make sure I let you know :o) How's that?

Sounds good to me. (grin)

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Oh my gawd,now this is going to turn into a love fest,isn't it? A bunch of that embracing and smooching and such. First communes,then chatting,now group hugs! Eeek! Eeek! and Eeek! some more.

I'm feeling a little crowded.I'm going now, to hug a tree and pet my flowers.You all just carry on.

Sorry,had to try for some levity.

Jim's comment cut too close to the quick.

Quit that,Jim.Put that knife down.I'm warnin' ya. I'll send Nick over with a pencil! I'll come along,of course,for company.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


ROFL!

Was I a bit too maudlin for you, Sharon?

I suppose we could sit around and sing "We are the world, we are the children..." (grin)

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


John:

Free will: Just because "God" may know the outcome of our various choices doesn't, in my mind, negate the idea of free will. To me the lack of free will would be to have no choice, we would simply have to do this or that, without the intervening thot process that goes into making a choice, which allows us to grow from what we've learned previously.

Like I mentioned to Earthmama, that's a hard concept for me to wrap my mind around. But I won't go into it anymore at this time because I think I'd just be repeating myself.

I really liked Annies? idea that creation simply is and I don't disagree with that at all. I'm one who likes to dig deeper and come up with concepts that make sense to me but that doesn't take away from the value and legitimacy of the "simply is" explanation.

Yes, I liked Annie's post, too. I think where I'm at right now is the "simply is" phase but, like you, I'm also trying to dig deeper for those concepts that make some sense to me, too.

BTW, I humbly suggest you put the Seth Material near the top of the list because I think you'll find the background developed from that book very helpful as a frame of reference for further study in Buddhism. And its all written in western-speak and semi-scientific with its language. It has been tremendously helpful to me in that role.

Yeah, that's what I'm planning to read first. I had a chance last night to order it through Inter-Library Loan so I'm hopeful that I'll get it within the next week or so. Thanks again for recommending it, John.

Joy:

...We’re spiritual beings on a physical journey. We’re here to experience being physical. Experiences contribute to our growth. I believe in reincarnation, that my spirit returns to new body again and again and will continue to do so. Until when? Don’t know. Until the spirit decides its enough? Until spirit evolves some how? Something like that.

Thanks for your thoughts on my questions. Your answer sounds kinda like my "cosmic college" theory that I mentioned to John. Maybe we're here to learn and grow in order to become something else. But I sure would like to know where "they" hid the CliffsNotes...

...Don’t believe that we are “created” as separate beings. I believe that “we” are spiritual in nature and all part of the same thing. That the physical aspect is something that Spirit has chosen to experience. And to what end? Perhaps a yearning to learn, expand, grow – maybe something else. That’s why I often call myself a Pagnostic – an agnostic with Pagan leanings.

Do you mean that we only have the *illusion* of being seperate beings? Maybe "humanity" is kinda like one of those sea urchins (the spiny sea creature), each one of us is one of the spines of the urchin but we have difficulty perceiving the body of the urchin so we think of the spines (each of us) as "individuals"... but we're really all part of a larger organism.

Just throwing out ideas... maybe the men in white coats make a visit to my house? ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Not maudlin Jim, just a little too close for comfort.You say words that could come from my mouth,too.

Singing yet? Oh No, Mr. Bill. Have you ever heard me sing? I do all the time,but you wouldn't want to actually hear me.

Dance like there is no one watching.Sing like there is no one listening. Live like there is no tomorrow. And I do!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Jim, you said "Yeah, that's what I'm planning to read first. I had a chance last night to order it through Inter-Library Loan so I'm hopeful that I'll get it within the next week or so. Thanks again for recommending it, John."

I'd love to hear your thots on the book when you've had a chance to read and digest it. At the very least its really provocative. Only then will the guys with white coats be camping on your doorstep. You'll see what I mean.

Re: Your comments to Joy and the "illusion" of seperateness. Actually you're closer than you think to the truth of it. Hindus, Buddhists and others think the way we commonly percieve the physical world IS illusory. Note "the way we commonly percieve" phrase because thats the defining term. I don't understand them to say the world around us is illusory, only the way we ordinarily percieve it. If I'm mistaken about this maybe Diane can elaborate.

Christianity has a different term and that is something like Satan as the great deciever and the great lie. Referring back to the thread I started re time standing still and Satan as the fear of love, then it seems pretty reasonable to me to think the "fear" causes the illusion of seperateness. It can hardly be denied that in the real world fear rarely causes unity unless its an "us against them" kinda thing, where fear unites "us" against "them". On the other hand its also pretty undeniable that Love, the antithesis of fear, does indeed unite.

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


"Re: Your comments to Joy and the "illusion" of seperateness. Actually you're closer than you think to the truth of it. Hindus, Buddhists and others think the way we commonly percieve the physical world IS illusory. Note "the way we commonly percieve" phrase because thats the defining term. I don't understand them to say the world around us is illusory, only the way we ordinarily percieve it. If I'm mistaken about this maybe Diane can elaborate"

I think you are right john, the illusion of separateness. One of the big stories in the Kagu tradition is about Marpa, a farmer and "Master" and one of his students (I think Naropa but I am not sure). Anyway Marpa's son dies and his student is amazed that Marpa is so grief striken. He says "Master, I thought you said life was an illusion." and Marpa replies...."Yes, but this was a super illusion!!".

I was very taken with what Joy had to say and Joy, I think you explained it very well. At least I felt like I understood what you were say.

Jim, the neighborhood church thing was just plain wierd. They asked us to join them in worship, some Amish that had left the church and some others of various non-violent types. Everyone knew right from the get go that this was a second marriage for my husband and I. Neither one of us was even Christian when we got married. It was "no problem" as far as everyone was concerned. Than all of a sudden they decided to form an "official church" with communion and everything and decided that we were adulterers and could not be a part of it. It was just one of a series of things, besides a bunch of really nasty e-mail about my CS participation etc. that has been quite a challenge this winter. The one that really almost pushed me over was the nasty post by that Judy person regarding the "tolerance" issue and that we would lead "fellow believers" into Satan's gripe. Like I said, I have way more questions than answers these days. A lot of it comes from age and knowing I don't know nearly as much as I always thought I did, and a lot has to do with my changing relationship with God as I understand Him. What a journey we are on!!!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Sheesh! Really! Adulterers! Sinners! Assholes!!!!

You can't be forgiven? Give me a )#$(&# break!

What the &##^is that all about??????????

Sorry, Diane, kind of lost it there....

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001


Sheepish....I always new my husband had a sister out there somewhere..LOL

john says...."Christianity has a different term and that is something like Satan as the great deciever and the great lie."

john...I don't think Christians have a corner on the market for representatives of the "force of darkness". I know Buddhism does with the 4-armed mahakalas and I think the Hindus do also. Muslums and Jews both believe in Satan.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


You're not alone, Diane. We finially went back to the little church after a year of absence, haven't been going anywhere. And we just went to say Hi to the people we have been missing, and let them see us and know we're allright. There always seems to be a handful of people in almost every church who know it all. And the others are so easily led by them, I don't know why they don't read the book instead of listening to someone's opinion on the matter.

It's sad, but very few churches understand unconditional love. We had a small group of about 12 that really understood this, and tried to practice it in church. Our studies were so wonderful and amazing. But some people are so planted in cement as to never be moved by anything. We scared them and their traditional ways and we were all given the boot too. We were treated so badly as to make us want to leave.

So what if you were married before, that has nothing to do with now. You are still you, and it's their loss if they can't see what you might be able to teach them. I have found out that people who have gone thru hard times and hurts really understand more than some who never have about real love. Our group learned that people aren't brought to a church by accident, that God is placing them there on purpose, because something is needed there that will help the whole body. Everybody is important, no one is more important than the other. But some churches will never understand this, they will never understand love.

If they would read about who was "used" by God to bring his message, they would find out God used the ones no one else would EVER choose. That's the point, the high and mighty ones are too full of themselves to be of any use to God. Does that make sense? I hope so.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Diane: You said "john...I don't think Christians have a corner on the market for representatives of the "force of darkness". I know Buddhism does with the 4-armed mahakalas and I think the Hindus do also. Muslums and Jews both believe in Satan."

I didn't mean to imply they did. I was trying to draw the parallels between Christianity's "illusion" concept and that of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. "Satan", being the fear of love spells it out rather nicely I think as the cause of the illusion of seperateness.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Sheepish: You say "I remember a lot about dim lights and sitting tired in armchairs. I can't remember if that was because of what was written (I think so, as when Seth was speaking) or how I personally felt when I was reading it!" Sorry, but I'm being dense. I don't get it. Please elaborate.

Jim: I was thinking about your sea urchin idea. Yeah, thats kinda it I think. From the physical pov we're obviously seperate entities but part of the mission of the spiritual path is to shift our focus to the idea that Joy mentioned---we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. If we identify ourselves as spirit first that gives us a different perspective, better enabling us to experience the unity.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Jim, I don't know anything about spines on sea urchins and how they perceive anything, but it sounds like that might a close analogy. Anyway, in a WAY we are individuals -- obviously, you and I are not even close to exactly alike. And yet, I believe it is equally obvious that everything is interconnected and so we and everything else are part of something larger than one of us as an individual, or all of us as the human race, etc.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Would a "heart cell" or "brain cell" think it was not part of the body if it compared itself with a "lung cell"???

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Thinking about all of this is giving me a brain cramp! I guess that my honest answer to the big questions would be "I don't know and I don't care.". I"m not trying to be a smart a**. I spent several years working myself into a royal depressive exestential funk over the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. I finally realized that rather than trying to discover the meaning of life, I needed to discover a way to give my life meaning. I don't know how the universe began, or how it's going to end. The only thing I know is that I exist. (OK, I suppose that technically I don't even "know" that) Life may be real or it may be some big illusion, and the only thing I can control is the way that I choose to interact with life. I choose to interact with compassion, although some days thats *much* harder than others.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001

Sherri: I know what you mean! I enjoy taking the gray matter out for a stroll now and then, but its helpful to remember these kindsa speculations aren't that important in the final analysis because they don't change the way things REALLY are.

The abstract stuff is fun to think about for me and others but its just as important, maybe more important, to learn of ways to apply the "Knowledge" we pick up along the way and turn it into a viable life ethic.

So the bottom line is, for those of us who do enjoy it, don't take it too seriously, because it is what it is, whatever we think it is.

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Jim,

I've only read your original post and Diane's first reply, so I won't answer in detail until I know what others have already said.

I first became interested in Buddhism nearly 20 years ago when I heard a Buddhist monk say "True Buddhism has no dogma, it is a way to find the answers and not a set of answers to be memorized." Therefore I feel free to pick and choose among the teachings presented to me.

Reincarnation etc are an integal part of Buddhism now, but in some of the texts when Buddha was asked directly if there was reincarnation or gods or many other things, his reply amounted to: "You have this life to worry about--the answer to your question is imatterial" or at least something close to that.

Frankly the way I see it is Reincarnation is like heaven in western religions: It's a promiss that can't be proven in this lifetime that is a carrot in front of the noses of the masses to keep them under control.

There are no answeres to any improtant questions about life that you cannot find within yourself better than believing what any doctrine or dogma decreed by any one. The meditation taught by most schools of Buddhism are one way of finding those answers. All else is window dressing.

==>paul

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Cindy, that is so true about who God calls!

John, seems to me when I read Seth Speaks, it always seemed that "he" would show up after (was it Jane?) would sit down, tired in an armchair, and Seth would start talking.

I read this in the fall of 1979, when it was very dark, figuratively as well as realistically, and I read under a dim light in an armchair. That's all. btw, I had just lost my father under tragic circumstances; had divorced from my first husband (ACK! Since I'm remarried I must be an adulteress!!); had moved back to the city; started a new career; and had moved back with my bereaved mother. So my memory may be somewhat clouded!!

-- Anonymous, May 26, 2001


Jim: I was just reading something that might help with the free will question. It went something like this.

We, as we are, at least partly rooted in "lower"(conditioned) mind, are reactionary in our responses to the world around us. By reactionary, that could be taken to mean that our reactions are "mechanical" and therefore somewhat predictable, thus the predestination argument you present, and from that viewpoint I think its valid.

Part of the spiritual path however is to go beyond "conditioned" mind and ascend to the higher self. I suspect you've had moments when an idea or solution to a problem just came to you. At first blush it may have seemed outrageous or very unlikely, but when you tried it, things worked out well. Yes? No?

That info was coming to you from "higher self" or unconditioned mind. As we aclimate ourselves to that "space" we become liberated from "conditioned", mechanical mind, and freer to make choices that are not rooted in the preconditioned past. Make more sense?

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001


John, what you just said, in my faith, is exactly right. If we limit ourselves to "human understanding", that is what we get. If we go beyond and acknowledge there is a higher force, we can tap into that, and use it for our daily lives. For me, the secret is to "have the mind of a child", always looking to the Father for the answers and directions I need. Just like a little kid would go to his dad and ask all his questions and what he should do. A child is humble and admits he doesn't know everything by asking advise, it's such a simple concept if we can lower our minds to that level, spiritually.

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001

WOW!!! I just wanted to let you know I've been hanging out and trying to understand all this. My head hurts! I like the urchin analogy and totally agree with being spiritual beings on a physical journey. I know I'm doin the best I can to learn what it is I'm supposed to learn. I just hope I'm not missing it somehow. Philosophically I have nothing to add as you all are much more advanced than I. I just wanted to let you know I'm following this and appreciate all the different input. Hey and not a sharp word or a bashing yet! Go guys!!!

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001

Great responses, guys! You've given much food for thought...

And Paul, thanks for your input. I find that I'm in MUCH agreement with what you posted.

I don't know if you've posted before to our little forum but I wanted to welcome you to our group.

John: I'll let you know what I think of "The Seth Material". Hopefully it will get here thru ILL in a timely fashion unlike one book that took 3 months to arrive.

Denise: My head hurts, too. ;-) I need to go work outside for a while and ponder all that's been talked about here.

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001


Jim,

I think this is the first thread I've posted to in this forum, but I've lurked off and on since it was started. Thanks for the welcome.

If there are answers to any of the questions religions try to answer, the answer must be within each of us. The forms meditation that the various schools of Buddhism have perfected over the last couple millennia are, as far as I know, the best way to look within for those answers. The Buddha was obsessed with ending suffering. He found an answer to his question, but it need not be the only question asked.

The answer I have found to so many questions is: It doesn't matter.

Is there a God who is Creator and Judge of All? Unless he/she/it chooses to make an appearance, speculation on the question does not help me live this life any better.

Is there a Heaven and Hell, or an afterlife of some other sort? Does reincarnation happen? Again, would knowing the answer to those questions change what is the best way to live this life? To many people the lack of a threat of punishment after death would remove any reason they can see for being moral when earthly punishment is unlikely. However I truly believe the best way to be happy is to make the world I live in a better place and I can not do that by harming other people. Therefore any potential reward or punishment is secondary to the effect I _know_ ill considered actions will have on _this_ life.

Did the universe have a beginning and will it have an end? If so why? OK, I'll bet you can guess the gist of my answer. If there was a big bang or not will not effect what I eat for breakfast in the morning or if I wave to the neighbors as I drive by? If the universe ends before I have breakfast, well I won't be around to worry about it. Should I be more helpful to others if there was a big bang, or if there wasn't one?

If western religions are right and only those who are born to the right stock and/or go through the correct rites etc stand any chance of getting the big reward, then I guess I might be in trouble. However I cannot see how any being that could create a whole universe and all the life on earth could be so petty as to want all of us to grovel in the right manor. Would such a being create all of, well, all of everything just to populate the world with a bunch of sycophants that only do what they are told? Somehow, I think not. If we are to be judged not by how we pray, but by how we act towards each other, than I strive to do the best I can because it makes _this_ life better, not for some distant promised reward.

==>paul, BTW, I list my occupation as ‘philosopher.' No it doesn't pay, but it sounds better than ‘unemployed.'

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2001


Paul: You said "If there are answers to any of the questions religions try to answer, the answer must be within each of us. The forms meditation that the various schools of Buddhism have perfected over the last couple millennia are, as far as I know, the best way to look within for those answers."

I thinks thats exactly right on. Personally I do believe there are answers to at least some of the questions asked and discussed on this thread but in the end, they are all within as you said and the various paths attempt to get us each in touch with the still, small voice within. And the rest is, as you said, window dressing.

You'd commented too about the reincarnation, heaven-hell, concepts as a cosmic carrot/stick kinda thing, to keep people in line. I agree with that too but wonder when it will no longer be necessary to come up with external "reasons" to be kind or loving etc.?

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2001


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