Folks,

According to the article, the Roman Catholic Church in Northeast Ohio is working for "Christian Unity" with Arch-Heretic Bishop Spong's outfit.

http://news.crosswalk.com/religion/item/0,,344925,00.htm

Would it be too much to ask to condition joint prayers, etc. on the Episcopal Church doing something about Spong and his ilk?

O tempora, o mores.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 20, 2001

Answers

Jmj

Steve, as always (sigh) your anti-Catholic comment contains flaws.

(1) The article you cited refers to the "Catholic" [not "Roman Catholic"] bishop or "northeast Ohio" (actually Cleveland), Anthony Pilla. Although Bishop Pilla has done some things for which he deserves severe criticism, there is nothing in your article for which he can be condemned.

(2) Catholics in the Cleveland diocese are not working with deeply disturbed Protestant clergyman John "Spong's outfit." Spong lives and does his dirty work in Newark, New Jersey, not in northeast Ohio. The Episcopalian denomination is so splintered and independent from place to place that the manifestation of it in northeast Ohio is not significantly related to "Spong's outfit." He plays no part in the quest for unity among Christians in the Cleveland area.

Please let us know, Steve, what you are doing to promote Christian unity.

May God bless and help you.
John
PS: Though I am not in Cleveland now, I lived there for many years.

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 21, 2001.

Well isn't that interesting John you and I have a common root so to speak. I also was born and raised in Cleveland OH.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), May 24, 2001.

Now, Rich, I didn't say that I was born and raised there. I said that I "lived there for many years."
However ... I was born and raised there! (Sorry ... couldn't resist.)
It was there that some family members became Franciscan tertiaries like yourself. The East-side inner-city parish church that they once visited, staffed by Franciscans, was closed and then destroyed by arsonists.
I'll guess that you are from Our Lady of Angels, near Kamm's Corners, on the West Side?
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 24, 2001.

John,

If "the Episcopalian denomination is so splintered and independent from place to place that the manifestation of it in northeast Ohio" is different, then I wonder -- do they have women priests there? If they have priestesses there, then I feel obligated to separate from them in compliance with the Biblical mandate to separate.

Would YOU pray for "Christian unity" with an Episcopal priestess who supports abortion and homosexuality? Is there anything in what Pilla signed or any recent Vatican documents that would prohibit this?

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 28, 2001.

Steve,

Please allow me to butt in, you said,

Would YOU pray for "Christian unity" with an Episcopal priestess who supports abortion and homosexuality?

Sure, I would... along with my prayers that they renounce what obviously goes against the will of God as expressed in the Bible. A Christian isn't supposed to renounce their brothers, only their incorrect actions. Maybe it's me, but it seems pretty low down to say "that person is so bad, they aren't even worthy of my prayers".

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 29, 2001.

Of couse, I would pray "for" such a person. I wouldn't pray "with" such a person, particularly in a public interdenominational prayer meeting.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 29, 2001.

Jmj

Steve,
I'm afraid that, if you did enough research into the beliefs of everyone with whom you are now comfortable praying, you'd have to shed a whole bunch of prayer partners. I'll bet that, if you could read the minds of all your fellow Lutherans (even your "confessional" Lutherans), you'd find some who approve of abortion, homosexual activity, etc.. Of course, if you step outside "confessional Lutheranism," you'd probably have a hard time finding anyone who could measure up to your high, self-righteous standards.

I don't worry about women being "ordained" as ministers or priests in any Christian body outside of Catholicism and the ancient eastern apostolic churches (Orthodoxy and the like). All such Christian ecclesial communities (including the one to which you belong) do not have "apostolicity." They have lost apostolic succession and are therefore incapable of truly "ordaining" anyone -- man or woman.
Calling someone an "ordained minister," "priest," or "priestess" in a non-apostolic Christian community is, in my opinion, just a term of respect for his/her natural knowledge and leadership skills -- not a sign that the person has been specially anointed by God in the way that he anoints through the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Orders. Such people cannot forgive sins or confect the Holy Eucharist, as a true priest (Catholic or Eastern) can do.

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 29, 2001.

John,

Why don't you answer the question:

"Would YOU pray for "Christian unity" with an Episcopal priestess who supports abortion and homosexuality? Is there anything in what Pilla signed or any recent Vatican documents that would prohibit this"?

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 30, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Steve.

I'd like to know why you feel that you have the authority to demand that I answer your questions? (You won't be satisfied with an answer unless it agrees with the one you would give anyway.)
But the reason that you are in no position to demand answers of me is that you have constantly "chickened out" of answering requests/questions that I have posed to you on various threads.

On this very thread, I made the following request of you -- which you ignored:
"Please let us know, Steve, what you are doing to promote Christian unity."

In your April 28 thread, I asked (and you ignored): "Perhaps you caught 'The Journey Home' Monday night, hosted by former Lutheran pastor, Marcus Grodi, founder of The Coming Home Network, which helps folks who are in the process of converting [to Catholicism]?"
In that same thread, after you had quoted one "Carl Henry" as an authority on capital punishment, I asked (and you ignored): "Who, pray tell, is Carl Henry? I have never heard of him. How could you think that we would accept an obscure person (not a pope, saint, bishop, or even priest) as authoritative or instructive to us on a Catholic forum? I searched the Internet and found that there is an evangelical Protestant theologian named Carl Henry, born in 1913 and still alive at 88. Unfortunately, he must be a fallen-away Catholic, as his mother was Catholic. Is this the Carl Henry whom you have in mind to inform us Catholics?"

But, Steve, to show you that I am not afraid to answer your questions, I will say this ...
I have no trouble praying for Christian unity with ANYONE, including those whom you think you are worthy to spit upon, and even including you! The irony is that, if you ever really do pray for Christian unity, Steve, then even YOU are praying with many "an Episcopal priestess who supports abortion and homosexuality." How could you have been so blind as not to have realized that you are spiritually joining in prayer "with" her -- by sharing the same intention (i.e., Jesus's divine will for unity) -- even though you are not physically present to each other?

St. James, pray for us. Our Lady of peace, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 31, 2001.

John,

To answer your questions:

1. "Please let us know, Steve, what you are doing to promote Christian unity." I pray for the unity of believers based on Confessional Lutheran teaching -- which is Biblical teaching.

2. "Perhaps you caught 'The Journey Home' Monday night, hosted by former Lutheran pastor, Marcus Grodi." No, I don't have a TV, so I didn't see that program.

3. "How could you think that we would accept an obscure person [Carl Henry] (not a pope, saint, bishop, or even priest) as authoritative or instructive to us on a Catholic forum?" I believe that what he teaches on this issue is consistent with Scripture, that's why. Since the current RC Church is so interested in listening to modernists, heretics, feminists, Moslems, etc. maybe you should consider what Mr. Henry teaches.

4. "How could you have been so blind as not to have realized that you are spiritually joining in prayer 'with' her [pro-abortion, pro- homosexual, Episcopal priestess] -- by sharing the same intention (i.e., Jesus's divine will for unity) -- even though you are not physically present to each other?" We do not have the same intention. She is praying for unity of the members the Synagogue of Satan and I am praying for the advancement of the Kingdom of God.

Hope this helps.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 31, 2001.

Jmj

You "hope [that] helps," Steve?
It only "helps" me worry all the more about you.

1. You say that you "pray for the unity of believers based on Confessional Lutheran teaching -- which is Biblical teaching."
Rather than being biblical teaching, "Confessional Lutheran teaching" is merely one of thousands of variant, modern (post-1500), fallible, human interpretations of some of the words of the Bible. And being such (i.e., subject to being wrong and incomplete), it is not an appropriate thing on which to base "pray[er] for the unity of believers."
Instead, you should simply pray for the unity of all Christians, that all would believe the same things -- i.e., that which Jesus taught his apostles (including that which was written and that which was not).

As you pray for unity, Steve, you need to be open to learning and admitting that some of what you now believe is wrong and some is deficient (lacking truths). That is, you need to be open to learning those things UNLESS you are willing to tell us, here and now, that your "Confessional Lutheran" denomination [Lutheran Church Missouri Synod?] has an infallible human teaching authority -- i.e., a body of men parallel to the pope and Catholic bishops. But if you believe that neither you nor the leader(s) of your denomination can interpret/teach infallibly, then it makes no sense for you to "pray for the unity of believers based on [fallible] Confessional Lutheran teaching."

2. Since there is so much garbage on TV, I cannot criticize your decision not to watch. (Or perhaps you cannot afford it. Blessed are the poor... .) However, by not having a TV, you are missing out on the incredible riches that God allows to flow, worldwide, through EWTN. Well, at least you have a computer, so you can go to www.ewtn.com and hear/view some of their programming via free RealAudio/Video software. There are also hundreds of hours of 1998 - 2001 "Catholic Answers Live" programs available to hear online at www.catholic.com, and you can tune in every weekday for live programs at 6:00 p.m., phoning in your questions.

3. About Carl Henry ... A major point I was trying to make, which you seem not to have noticed, is that, although we have never heard of him, you tossed out his name and opinion as though it were something that should be of significance to us -- without even identifying the man. To quote an unknown ex-Catholic to us, as if he could hold a candle to saints and popes, was the height of arrogance.

4. I take that back. The true "height of arrogance" was your incredibly shameless belief that you are capable of judging an Episcopalian woman as "praying for unity of the members the Synagogue of Satan." As bad as you have been in the past, Steve, I actually thought that you could not stoop that low.

May God forgive and bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 31, 2001.