Sharon asked "John,I would love to sit down and talk to you for a few hours. Expand on what you said concerning religious fervor,if you would?" so don't blame me. She asked for it!

Many years ago I was involved in a relationship and I was completely over the top in "needy" love. I'll confess up front that I was an emotional basket case, extremely insecure about the whole thing and anxious and worried about "keeping" her all the time.

I travelled alot for my job. One evening, after returning from eating with my coworkers I was about to settle in for the nite in the motel room. I'd just sat down on the bed when this HUGE, THUNDEROUS, AUTHORITATIVE male voice said "Surrender yourself. Satan is the fear of love." coupled with some visuals and a super intense intuition that was so precise as to be immistakeable.

Well, I might be a fool but I ain't an idiot. There was no doubt in my mind that it was the voice of God---the real magilla---right out of the Old Testament, soon to be verified by the book, "Mysticism" by Evelyn Underhill.

My obsession with the woman in question got thankfully sidetracked and this experience became uppermost in my mind.

I thot alot about the fear of love and its opposite---love. I reasoned that if Satan is the fear of love and God is love then we're dealing with a "set" of eternal opposites. But then God is also said to be Life so Satan becomes the fear of Life and with it---death.

Sometimes it was useful to "genericise" fear as simply fear. During this time I also developed a discipline around methods I'd learned about from Vajrayana Buddhism, auto-suggestion, thaumaturgical magic etc.

That info is for background. Applied, the "discipline" involved intense concentration and intentionally putting myself in "fearful" situations (situations that would normally cause me to feel insecure) while maintaining observation of some specific "spiritual" rules.

During this time I was "led" to certain scriptures and the understanding I've developed has come from that study. It was then that the idea came to me that "focussed fear" lends spiritual power to consciousness, thus when the "ancients" who seemed to be very into "fearing" God, they used similar methods but usually less intense. They coupled their intent to obedience to God with their "fear" of God and sometimes, I suspect, made time stand still as a result. It got to the point where I was able to do that kinda thing, more or less at will.

Consciousness both controls energy and is a manifestation of energy. Energy operates according to laws. Those laws were (and are) known by the ancients and they knew how to apply them for specific results. Harnessing the fear has alot to do with it.

Paradox is common when dealing with these kindsa things. Consider this. Imagine you really BELIEVED that if you broke a mirror you'd have seven years of VERY bad luck. Fearing the bad luck, you'd do everything you could not to break that mirror. Initially you might handle the mirror with alot of anxiety and very FEARfully. As your confidence grew in your ability to handle the mirror without harm your attitude might become CAREful, and less fearful. As time goes on you begin to think, this mirror is the cause of my blessings and good luck and the attitude shifts subtly again. Now you handle the mirror CAREingly, not for what the mirror can do for you but what you can do for the mirror. Its not much of a stretch to next handle the mirror LOVINGLY. Notice the paradigm shift from handling the mirror fearfully to finally handling the mirror lovingly---the evolution of Love? Or maybe the E-Volition of love or Love under will.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Answers

PS --- I meant to ad that many spiritual disciplines, especially those of the "short path" variety seek to establish a dynamic tension within the energy we each command and it is that dynamic tension that causes "breakthru" experiences.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Wow John.You are amazing.I'm not sucking up,either.I'm glad I asked for it.

Your stillwaters run very,very deep.

I will have to digest this tomorrow.I'm pretty tired now.

Thank you.I think I'm glad I met you.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

I was watching "The History of God" on A&E at the same time I was reading your post. Right at the time I read about your "fear of love" message, on A&E they said that the people, when hearing God's message for the first time long ago, had a very hard time accepting "love others more than yourselves". They just couldn't understand why God would say that. Neat, huh. (I love it when that happens.)

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Hi cindy.....not having heard the program you watched as yet......but pitching in here anyway....

My response to god instructing us to love others more than ourselves would also be of disbelief. I strongly feel we can only be truly at peace with others and the slings and arrows of life after we have truly fallen in love with our true and whole selves.

John dear, you do indeed have a whole lotta amazing stuff in yo head and heart...thank u for the brain food; I probably will get no sleep tonite thinkin about all this ...........

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

Personally Earthmama and Cindy, I agree with you both and I don't necessarily see them as being mutually exclusive.

Earthmamma right IMO, in that being true to oneself is a requirement for integrity of person and thru loving(knowing) oneself we're able to discern how to love others.

A simple example of how Cindy's correct tho might be this: A person is drowning and another jumps in to save the one threatened, at known risk to the rescuers life, or setting aside our own desires, momentarily or permanently for the welfare of another.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Ok John.I read it again.Still a wow.Will get back here when I have more time,but here's a thought or two from me,for now.

I was painfully shy.Not unexpected for someone growing up rural. When I was in my 20's,I had to give training and programs anyway.Really hated it.That is putting it mildly.But then I was taught to "get my butterflies flying in formation".To harness the anxiety and use that energy, and turn it into an animated presentation,instead.

I think this is a very mild version of what you are describing to me when you talk about harnessing the fear.Do you think so?

So what I have to do is climb fire towers and make myself go above treetop? I get vertigo when I go above treetop. Or roll around in thousands of caterpillers? I don't think I can do that one! (Yes,we all have really absurd,irrational fears)

The intense concentration needed? That's difficult for me.I am a bundle of energy.Do,do,do! I'll have to think on that some more.

I like hearing what you have to say.You combine many diciplines into a more unifying theory. I believe most of the world's religions are pretty much the same at the core.The rituals are different, but not necessarily the central beliefs.But I've only dappled.You have taken the time to explore more deeply. What is your opinion?

Well,that's enough thinking,for now.Gotta go do some mindless planting. That's what keeps me sane. Or grounded,as Polly said.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

And,now I just read what you wrote.Learning to love oneself is a prerequisite to more than occasional altruism,I think. Otherwise, you're just too narcistic and self absorbed to find the time to care about anyone else,much.Too busy trying to fill the hole in your soul.We all know people like that. Sad,indeed.

What is learning to love oneself,in your opinion? Accepting the imperfection?

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Hi again: Sharon, you say " I was taught to "get my butterflies flying in formation". YES!, thats the idea and I really like that image.-------"To harness the anxiety and use that energy, and turn it into an animated presentation,instead."---- How was that done? What did you have to do to get them flying in formation? I suspect, at least in part, it involved preparation which built confidence, concentration and the "will" or intent to power thru it, no?

"So what I have to do is climb fire towers and make myself go above treetop? I get vertigo when I go above treetop." ---wouldn't hurt, just take care. committment, resolve, determination.

"Or roll around in thousands of caterpillers?"-----so what's the fear? Is the fear of caterpillars in general or is the fear of rolling around in thousands of them? To me the fear of caterpillars is understandable, the fear of rolling around in thousands of them seems pretty silly. If the fear is of caterpillers in general I'd let one crawl around on me for a while until the rational knowledge of them being basically harmless caught up with the harmless reality of the experience. I'm a believer in reason and if a fear runs counter to reason I try to explore it, expose it, dispose of it.

"The intense concentration needed? That's difficult for me.I am a bundle of energy."------I know what you mean! After the event I described above I was WIRED for sound, 24/7. There was no way I could have sat for meditation so I did the next best thing and consciously tried to "divinize" my actions. To do that I would strive for wholehearted concentration on what I was doing in spite of a thousand horses pulling me in different directions, awareness of minutae within the action, the intended result of the action(goal) coupled with the attitude of non-attachment.

"I like hearing what you have to say.You combine many diciplines into a more unifying theory. I believe most of the world's religions are pretty much the same at the core.The rituals are different, but not necessarily the central beliefs.But I've only dappled.You have taken the time to explore more deeply. What is your opinion?"

I agree the essence of most of the world religions appears to be the same, only the outer trappings are different, tho I believe they all use the same mechanisms of consciousness to achieve, in the end the same results.

Another thing the fear does that I failed to mention in the initial post is it puts one in the NOW and when time stands still it becomes a transcendent moment.

If you've read any of the Carlos Casteneda books, recall Carlos's training and how often Don Juan would put Carlos in a "fearful" situation but with specific instructions on how to deal with some pretty wierd events. Its the same thing I think as what I'm talking about.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2001

Sharon: Forgot to comment on loving oneself. Yeah, accepting the imperfection is a big part of it I think, but with that its helpful to recognize that its a being and becoming kinda thing.

That brings me to a devils advocate kinda question. Perfection? relative to what? What is perfection? Who defines the parameters of perfection?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

I though about this. I quess I do love myself enough to stay the person I am whatever comes my way. I am happy and content that I am the person that I am, with the heart that I have, and seeing things the way I do. I am thankful I have come so far in life as to know what really matters most. I have learned to be joyful with what I have around me, not what I don't. I love to laugh, I love to have fun doing anything.

I have this thing on being able to see right thru people. I can see very clearly how people can make themselves unhappy, on purpose, and it makes no sence to me. I really truly care about others, but I won't play the games that some people want to play, and I'll tell them. I don't like it when someone says they love me just cause it sounds good. Love is not a feeling, it is an attitude with appropriate behavior. Actions speak louder than words.

If someone thinks too highly of themselves, then everyone else is someone to look down upon, and it shows. If a person dosen't think enough of themselves, then they are always finding reasons why everyone won't accept them or putting down others to try to force themselves to look better. We are what we are, this is it. I can see why you must accept yourselves first, and stand fast, then others are no threat to your self. And if your self is yours, then why would you want to push it on others. They have their own self. I can share with others what I have learned, and they can share with me what they have learned, but each of us still builds our own self. Is that close, Earthmama?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Good stuff here......I guess I'd just add that I don't believe that people look down upon others because they think too highly of themselves; I think they do it for exactly the opposite reason. I think its a facade, even sometimes to themselves, to cover up self- hatred and insecurity. I think people who truly have learned to love their true selves, warts and all, can then truly begin to love others, warts and all. The secret is like "I am loving and lovable and just fine the way I am, but so is everyone else". I am not better than anyone else, but I am just as good. We are all perfect just the way we are, and should allow no one to tell us otherwise.

This of course does not mean that we don't from time to time find ways to help ourselves grow to be even more wonderful and loving, but that isn't the same thing as thinking there's something 'wrong' with us that needs changing. I really believe the self-love concept is the hardest thing for most of us to grasp and put into action, because we are culturally trained to despise ourselves, to think of self-love as selfish, and it often takes a lifetime to turn that around. I also think its a necessary process, because the pain involved helps us to find compassion for everyone else's equally difficult journey.

Oh and John, as to your saving the drowning person scenario.......I think I could just as easily submit that were I to jump in and save this person, it would be because firstly, I know this is only my physical body and I'm not in the least afraid of losing it, and secondly, because it would make me feel really good to save this person, and I would figure if I am being suddenly faced with this situation, then I probably am cosmically SUPPOSED to be involved. So maybe I'm being nitpicky, but I guess I don't see it as setting aside my own desires, not that that's a bad thing. What's the philosphy called that believes EVERYTHING we do is in our own self-interest?

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

You said some very wise things, Earthmama. Makes me dig even deeper.(smile) p.s. I looked at "View Source" to see how you made the font red. Pretty neat.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

"How could anyone ever tell you . . . that you're anything else less than beautiful . . . .
How could anyone ever tell you . . . that you're anything less than whole?
How could anyone fail to notice . . . that your loving is a miracle . . .
How deeply you're connect to my soul . . . . Don't know the original source of that song, but it's sung in a lot of circles . . .

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Fizzle! Trying again, sorry!

"How could anyone ever tell you . . . that you're anything else less than beautiful . . . .
How could anyone ever tell you . . . that you're anything less than whole?
How could anyone fail to notice . . . that your loving is a miracle . . .
How deeply you're connect to my soul . . . ."
Don't know the original source of that song, but it's sung in a lot of circles . . .

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Well,John,I've needed time to reflect.You pretty much blew me away,at first.Apparently,you've had the same effect on others,here.

But,let me try to converse with you on the subject.

Let's see-Loving oneself is accepting the imperfection.Imperfection is being human.For each person that could/would be something different.

For myself,one component of loving myself is definitely allowing myself to be human,to make mistakes and misteps.That has always been a tough one for me.The second is recognizing that I am pretty darn loveable and not too odd or too far off the beaten path to be appreciated,and to also appreciate that I am seemingly different,and,guess what,that's a good thing. Just a couple thoughts.

Everyone has their own ghosts and shadows that haunt them and makes them feel less worthy.So what is perceived as imperfection varies with each person.

Now,back to the original premise.You asked how I acomplished getting over fear and yes it is as you described.Preparation so that you feel more confident.Especially forcing a facing the situation over and over until it was no longer fearful.

I like the way you stated "fearing" God is actually loving God.That is so much more in line with what I find acceptable/believable.

I still,admittedly have some trouble conceptualizing all you have explained, bc I don't think I've experienced it to the degree you have,but I got the general idea.I will think on this,further.I hope I can talk to you down the road as questions come to mind.

Pretty facinating,guy.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Earthmamma: Yeah, I know what you mean. There's a zillion things that can motivate behavior, good or evil. The "argument" you applied is applicable to any similar example one could give for altruistic action but still I think the example I gave does make the point that there is such a thing as "pure" altruistic action, without thought of "reward" for oneself or any other strings attached to the action.

But it could also work the other way too. You could feel really shitty about yourself if you didn't "save" the other when it was within our power to do so. In that case, ya do it because ya don't wanna feel shitty afterwards. We're a mixed bag a' tricks, us people.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2001

Pretty funny John! I would like to think that we would do our best to save them if it was in our means because if the situation was turned around, we would want someone to save US! Treat others the way you want to be treated.

Could you imagine someone saying "No, I don't want you to save me, I wouldn't save you."

And I do believe the kindness grows from one to another to another. That person would probably never have even considered risking his own to save someone's life before, untill someone saved his.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

OK, Earthmama, been thinkin.

....The secret is like "I am loving and lovable and just fine the way I am, but so is everyone else"....

If you have to deal with a person from time to time, NOT your best bud or anything like that, and that person is just a wolf in sheep's clothing, waiting to get something on you or just make something nasty up about you, how do you deal with them? (their actions have a direct affect on your day to day contacts)(I am by far not their only target)

I'm being sincere, I would just like another birdseye view here, maybe help me to see something I have missed. I've been kind, no unforgiveness (can't handle that), me and allot of others have helped them many times, I mind my own business and try to ignore it, but it is not going away, only growing. I would love to hear your chapter in the book on this. Take your time. (smile)

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

Interesting,Cindy.Without getting into details,I have recently had the same experience.Really disillusions you for a while. I too,don't really know how to handle that kind of betrayal. Other than to avoid them. Interesting.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001

I know Sharon, it's a hard one. I'm not upset or worried or let it affect my happiness here, in that sence I have grown by leaps and bounds. I am able to push it out of my mind and think on my life, what is real, what is right here in front of me is real. And it's good. Every day I'm so thankful.

The part that does bother me is what it's doing to our name, per se, our witness as good people, out there. I am always defending myself, people will call, saying they are worried about us, and my reply is always the same, "That's not true, never happened." I mean, what a waste of time and worry. I wonder about all the rumors that never got back to me. It's funny, the ones that thrive on gossip refuse to believe things aren't true, cause then they would have to admit to themselves they were guilty of spreading slander, and theres no way that would happen. So actually, from what John said, they are afraid to believe me and know me, cause then they'd have to love me.

I really am enjoying this forum. Keep talkin and we'll keep learnin.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

Cindy,

I don't think I have any great words of wisdom here..... sounds to me like you have this figured out pretty well already.....how YOU see that this person's remarks and behaviour are symptoms of their own wounds; that there is very little one can do overtly to change other people, because we have not lived their life.

As far as people spreading gossip about you, I know how painful this can be, cuz it used to drive me nuts too. I have relatives who loved to do this about me for many years (course I gave them much fuel for their games, just because I'm so weird in many ways its scares people, making them feel that I'm challenging their values by my very existence). I used to get angry, spend a lot of time defending myself, or fantasize about ways to get even! In my case, I began to see over the years that the people who believed the lies or exaggerations were those who had no life, and who were apt to believe and grasp onto negative information anyway. And I began to discover that most others in my family, having had relationships with the critical ones often longer than I, knew this too. Most gossip was taken with a grain of salt, and been basically forgotten, or at least doubted in the first place.

After I had this kinda epiphany about it, and started to see how little it really mattered to my life, the most magical thing happened. (This sort of thing has happened to me my entire life, so the truth of it, for me, is unmistakeable.)

PEOPLE STOPPED GOSSIPING........

It just didnt happen anymore, or if it does, I never hear about it, so it wouldn't matter anyway!

I now know that if something someone else is doing is driving me nuts, its because of something in ME that needs another look. I can now see how, even tho I was not aware of it at the time, I too spent a certain amount of energy gossiping ( I am not inferring, btw, Cindy, that you are doing this.......this is just my story).....criticizing others, without even stopping to find out all I could first about these people. I see how some of the things that were said had a ring of truth to them, but I had no desire to go there, certainly not with my relatives![ I come from a big family and most of my relatives are fundies]. I see how my pride was my biggest reason for responding with anger; I had not yet had enough life experience to learn humility, so projecting an image of self- confidence, competetence, and even integrity was very important to my self-image. I believe that is why all this happened, that these people were doing a job they were sent here to do, to be as obnoxious as possible so that I ( and hopefully many others) could learn this lesson.

Sometimes the only answer is , as Sharon said ,avoidance. There are some people who I merely try to spend some time each day attempting to send positive energy to (praying for, if you prefer). They are beyond any other type of constructive communication, and it only drains my energy to be physically around them, so I choose not to. That isnt the same thing as me avoiding the lesson they have come to teach me, for that is an easy thing to do, and doesnt work anyway, cuz I know the Universe will send someone/something else till I get it right. But sometimes you have to give people ultimatums if they want to be in your life.

I've had to do this with my own mother a few times; it has been a long and sad journey together; I finally had to realize that we will never be close because although I know she loves us, she is just not able in this lifetime to disgard her fears enough to open her heart and mind to anything or anyone who strays from her narrow biblical view; we have very little to talk about anymore, its true, but at least our conversation is basically pleasant. She has learned she cannot step over certain lines with me or my kids, or she will not have us in her life anymore. Her criticisms, judgements, racism, and religious proselytizing have no place in my presence. The first time I gave her such an untimatum was very scarey; I knew it was entirely possible she would leave my life forever, but instead she grumbled alot and has over the years for the most part respected my wishes.

Don't know if this is really relevant or not, and here I am mistin up again talkin about my poor mom! Point is, I guess, that I love her now for who she is because she has taught me volumes, even though most of it was unintended on her part! And your people, too, probably know not what they do, in the big picture, even tho we'd all sometimes like to strangle them!

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2001

Earthmama, your post had me gigglin and mistin at the same time. I read it like 4 times before I went out in the garden to work and to think on it. I got the most important point, "how little it really matters". I was smiling thinking on this, it is true, really gossip is just words spoken out into the air and then they are gone. Nothing solid or real to touch or feel there. They are nothing.

I used to get angry also, I think because I didn't understand. I am different also, and I do think it bothers people. One of my biggest anti-social faults is saying exactly what I am thinking. Most people don't do that. But I don't say mean things, I never call anyone names or anything like that. I dunno, there's something about out and out meaness that just gets my feathers all ruffed up. I quess I really thought I could get all these people to get along! Not.

As you said, these trials have made me a much stronger person. I am much different than I was even a year ago, I've come thru the fire, and I didn't crack. I was scared for a little while that my heart might harden towards others, and I would become uncaring and cold, something I have never been. But being up on this hill, surrounded by all this beauty and life, I realized I was loved, maybe not by everyone, but I was loved by the ones that mattered.

Yes, I admit it, all that happnened and will happen in the future has taught me more about myself. And made me more of a person. Better. I am very aware of the words I say to others, very careful not to do to them what I don't like done to me. Do ya think they are teaching us how not to be, that's part of it anyway.

I'll think on your words next time the barrage comes, and I'll burst out into song, "Life is just a bowl of cherrys, so live and laugh at it all!" (for some reason I was singing that song all afternoon yesterday) p.s...my mom was a firm Roman Catholic hillybilly woman and she didn't like "outsiders" either!

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2001