This question came up over in the Calvinism thread, and I think it's a good one, one of the most basic. What do you think happens to people when they die? Does your answer depend on whether the person lived a good and virtuous life? Do you believe in reincarnation? Heaven and/or hell? Spirits or ghosts? Or do you think that death is the end?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Answers

I'm one of those folks that believe the only thing that happens after death is a slow decomposition. I believe in being a decent person because that's the best way for society to function and we all benefit. I don't believe in being decent for some promise of an afterlife reward.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I think that when people die, they return to the Earth (barring excessive manmade obstacles to that happening) and eventually their remains have a part in the growth of new life. What happens after death has nothing to do with being virtuous...dying is the one thing we can all be sure we'll manage to succeed at doing - no action on our part is necessary. As to reincarnation and ghosts... fun ideas, but no, I can't say I believe in them - they seem more like wishful thinking. I do think there may be some unexplained phenomenon that has been imparted to ghosts, but I think the answer is likely to be something else other than the embodiment of some restless human spirit that got lost on the way to heaven. Unexplained just means unexplained. If by chance I should be wrong, finding out would be very interesting to me, though - I'll worry about that if I still exist after I'm dead.

I don't believe in Hell and wouldn't even if I did believe in some sort of afterlife - it was a misunderstood idea from another culture that got grafted onto the Christian religion and then was used as a bullywhip to scare people into the church. But, if Hell did exist as portrayed by Christian theology, Heaven couldn't as far as I'm concerned, because anyone worthy of Heaven would be miserable knowing Hell was next door and that people they loved were there. (And anyone who'd avoided having any feeling for those they assumed would be hell- bound wouldn't be worthy of Heaven.) The whole Heaven/Hell thing is just too illogical for me to consider, even if I did think there was an afterlife.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I have no idea what I believe. I understand the Christian faith and it's the one I was raised in, so if I follow any religion's beliefs in the afterlife I'm likely to believe like the Christians. It doesn't strike me as an impossibility.

That said, though, it seems like the probabilities lie much more heavily with slow decomposition than with eternal salvation. Hard to imagine that there's some glorious new existence waiting for me around the corner that is completely separate from my current experiences.

Now, I'm a little nervous saying this because it may lead some of the Calvinists among y'all to conclude that I must be among the un-Elect and shun me, but frankly I can't imagine how it would be pleasant to have an endless existence. My existence is a frequent pain in the ass to me, and I'm the biggest cause of my own discontent. Sartre thought hell was other people, but that's not the way it works in my case. I'm only happy when I have a project or a task and I'm working toward a goal. After I reach my goal I sit down and begin to gnaw my own liver (figuratively and literally, with the help of Demon Rum). Me without a goal is trouble waiting to happen and a lot of internal angst. I'm not a (total) workaholic and I enjoy my leisure time, but to have nothing else ahead of me for all of time and beyond?

I can't picture reaching that ultimate goal and then being happy forevermore. It may be that there is an afterlife and we've just been given a totally wrongheaded picture of it. But the one that I've been taught? The one about being caught up in rapture in the eternal contemplation of the Divine countenance? I'm sorry to say that the older I get, the more it sounds like "Pie in the sky when we die by and by." And not good pie. Lots and lots of cheap A&P brand pie. Forever. I can't seem to get excited about it, even on days I can convince myself that it's real.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Here's another question for those of you who, like me, don't believe in any kind of afterlife: do you find funerals especially difficult? I mean the kind of funeral where there's a lot of talk about the deceased having gone on to his or her "reward"?

It's an odd feeling. I've been to two funerals where I suspected that the decease shared my feelings about the afterlife, but by far the most troubling was my grandfather's funeral last month. My grandfather was a minister, as I've mentioned, and while I thought the service was really wonderful, it was also very focused on his beliefs and the beliefs of most of his family members. I felt really horrible sitting there and not believing. My atheism doesn't usually make me feel like a bad person, but it did that day.

Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

As I've pretty much personally washed my hands of the majority of the Judeo-Christian belief system (labeling it 'mostly wishful thinking'), I find it incredibly difficult to believe in a concept of heaven, or an afterlife, or any of those images. 'Heaven' to me, as a place where you 'go' and spend eternity - it seems entirely comical, and somewhat naive.

But I'm not claiming that I have a better grasp on things than a religious or spiritual person. Not at all. I haven't a clue what happens, and for the most part, I don't really want to speculate. The idea of oblivion is, while somewhat more soothing than a concept of Hell, it's also kind of depressing. You're just gone? Poof? Then what's the point of all this, then?

See, it brings on existential crisises! I hate exisistential crisises.

If I had to pick something? Well, Lucretius has this conception of non-divisible units of energy, the smallest components of matter, and utterly indestructible (I think he referred to them as atoms). We're made up of them, see? And since they're indestructible, when we die, we don't simply vanish. Those atoms fly off, and rejoin the Great Swirl of Matter in the Universe.

I find that oddly soothing. And also pleasantly New Age.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Beth - absolutely. Selfishly it makes me really kind of wish I believed in something as feverently, and also had that kind of comfort available to me.

But it also makes me feel uncomfortable for them - do they really believe it? Do they know it's not logical? Do they know it's not true? How can they possibly believe in those words coming out of their mouth?

And then I feel mean, and just like a horrible person.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

Ok, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped posting to your forum, Beth... I've been at work for two hours and gotten nothing done yet. Damn. I suck.

Anyway, the only funerals I have been to were for my grandparents. At my grandmother's funeral we spent most of the time trying not to giggle as my 90+ year old Uncle Arthur, who is very hard of hearing, was sitting in the back talking very loudly during the funeral to his brother about driving around in "an old shitbox."

I did, however, once date a woman who's dad was a conservative minister, and when I visiter her family I went to church with them. That was very akward.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I always come away from funerals angry... I mean, it's not sad enough that the person isn't going to be here anymore, but funerals seem designed to alter our memory of the person at a time when we're trying to hang onto as much as we can. Either the person gets 'sainted' (and its people who have no interest in being sainted), or the preacher turns it into a grab at an opportunity to preach at a lot of people they know wouldn't be in a church otherwise. I especially hate them when its someone I know would really hate being preached over.

I'd like to believe in ghosts just so I can come back and haunt anyone who does that to me. heh..

i dunno... if there is any value to them, i guess it's in impressing on you that the person is really GONE, because there sure isn't much of them that comes out during the service.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I don't believe in anything that may or may not happen after I die, because I want to believe the right thing. And it's hard to figure out which event might actually happen. And death scares the shit out of me because it is so unknown. I wish I could have faith in a religion or something that would help comfort me until I actually find out, but I'm not sure of which religion to choose either. So, I don't know anything, I don't believe anything, and I don't think I want to find out what actually happens, even though I will have no choice.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I believe in reincarnation. The universe wastes nothing -- not even a soul, no matter how worthless. If energy is part of a closed system, why not my essence?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2001

I have just returned from Australia where my uncle died a month ago.

I liked pastor Burger, who was the one giving the sending away speech, when he came to talk to us before the funeral. He was both unimposing and genuinely interested in our uncle Jass. But, to my surprise (as I had thought that I have learned to tolerate religion, being agnostic rather than a fighting atheist nowadays), I found out that the presence of a priest (even if, as I said before, I had liked mr.Burger very much as a fellow-human) at the funeral irritated me intensely.

I also felt so virtuous for being tolerant enough and not ordering the priest out of the chapel as an unwelcome guest. My uncle, unlike me, was baptized and even confirmed twice in after war Germany (the church gave out some allowance - some good textile for a suit, I think - to each confirmand and uncle Jass felt cheating the church is a virtuous deed), but he never was a religious man. Yet, as I also believe that funerals are not for the benefit of the deceased, but for the benefit of the mourners, I think one has to organize funerals in whatever way the kin of deceased (in uncle case the kin is rather his old friends in Australia than me, who saw him first time as a dead body in a coffin) feels most comfortable with.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

First off, funerals ARE for the mourners,not the deceased. So if a few words from a priest of any faith might make a few of the grieving feel better, why not?

I don't believe in reincarnation---or at least I HOPE not. I'd hate to go through toilet training again---or for that matter, eighth grade. Besides, logic tells me that there are fifty people who have lived for every person alive, so even if reincarnation is a possibility, it sounds you would have to wait--somewhere---for about 3500 years till there was a "vacancy".

Now, as for some of the questions raised...

"But it also makes me feel uncomfortable for them - do they really believe it?" Sometimes.

I believe Jesus rose again, for what I consider valid historical reasons---if we had four seperate accounts, even second- hand, of ANYTHING that happened in the first century, even an alien landing, we would give serious consideration to it--but Jesus is a special case. I don't expect to walk on water, why should I expect to rise again, in any place?

I saw something---leave---Jamie. It was very noticable. One moment something wasn't there that was there before. It didn't feel like the snuffing of a candle. It was more like something...left.

Yet that, like so much else, might be subjective delusion...

Yes, I do believe in it, though. I have my moments of doubt on that (much more than say, there being a Creator, which follows my sense of science and logic much more fluidly)---it depends on whether I think Jesus knew whereof He was speaking, and whether His words were reliably relayed by His disciples. Both must be big Ifs to a lot of people. I'm satisfied by the one, and hopeful on the other. Yet it's nothing I can demonstrate via logic, the way I think I can make a case for a Creator.

"Do they know it's not logical?"

Well, that's unproven. It might be---to put it mildly--unLIKELY, but I don't think it's necessarily illogical. Frank Tipler tried to prove that a supercomputer at the end of time would, of necessity, recreate everyone who ever lived in its virtual memory, and put them in virtual "worlds" in its memory--a Heaven...but I think HIS logic was faulty there. (THE PHYSICS OF IMMORTALITY.) Yet I don't think---given my thoughts on the anthropic coincidences, which leads some to think that a Creator devised the universe to foster the developement of intelligent life---that such a Creator might think it--wasteful---to destroy that intelligence, that has taken billions of years to come to pass.

It's a slim thing to pin Eternity on, though.

"Do they know it's not true?"

No. Nor does anybody. And certainly the world-wide belief in ghosts and other forms of afterlife might at least give one pause and wonder if there is anything in it. Wishful thinking? Very possibly. But to the point of being delusional, consistently delusional, like the ghosts of Glamis Castle? It gives even me pause, and personally I hope the dead will have other things to do then waste time here...like a grown man returning to the womb.

"How can they possibly believe in those words coming out of their mouth?"

Well, to be perfectly honest, I have trouble believing that a lot of people who claim not to believe in life after death, don't have doubts. "In that sleep of death what dreams might come..." Because it brings us to the good ol' existential crisis. Everything we do will pass away. Someday all of man's achievements will be so much dust. If we all just---shut off when we die---why prolong the agony? Why not just end it all now, everytime we get in a bad fix?

That, looking at it the other way, is the logical conclusion.

Note I am not, to put it mildly, counselling suicide...but I have to wonder. If this is a brief light between the darkness of nonexistence and the darkness of death, why prolong it, why cling to it, why think any of it matters? It doesn't matter. Hitler met the same nothingness that you will. Why not grab what you can while you can, and to hell with the little guy?

Yet most atheists don't live that way. They live as if it does make a difference. Why?

(There's another side,of course. If I were sure of Heaven, why not commit suicide? The answer is twofold---I'm not sure of Heaven and I'm not, in my heart of hearts, absolutely sure of an afterlife. It's a hope, but not more.)

Yet that hope is very precious to me. If I knew for sure that I would never meet Jamie again, in any form, I would get extremely depressed. I live in hope...and if I'm wrong, I'll never know it, because my brain and self will stop functioning. If it's a lie, even told to myself, than it's not one that is doing me harm.

Yet I live in hope, because I do think it's a real possibility.

"And then I feel mean, and just like a horrible person."

No need. Perhaps more dialogue is needed, not less.

Oh, on the Hell question. Would you really like to be stranded with someone who chose to be...say, Aolph Eichmann, or Torquemada---for eternity? Should the reasonably decent people be held forever down by the sadists and the sociopaths? Or will there inevitably come a parting of the ways...where one's interests and climes will inevitably differ, as eternity wears on, and one gets more and more intersted and channelized in where their particular interests go? Maybe the sort of Nazi who liked to toss Jewish children out of fifth- story hospital rooms would not be interested in any sort of afterlife that was shared by Einstein or Schweitzer. Maybe he would be more interested in going places where a sort of spiritual sadism can fester.

Maybe any of us can become a saint or a demon---given a few thousand millenia.---Al of NOVA NOTES.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Here's another question for those of you who, like me, don't believe in any kind of afterlife: do you find funerals especially difficult? I mean the kind of funeral where there's a lot of talk about the deceased having gone on to his or her "reward"?

I consider myself to be someone with ample amounts of healthfully questioned faith and I *still* hate most funerals. (And while we're on the subject, most weddings too.)

They seem so staged and rote and without genuineness - more of like a stage production of what you "should" do and "should" say and "should" feel.

EX. My grandfather was not a nice man. He'd been to prison a couple of times, he was a raving sexist biggot (sp?), and in his waning days he'd yell at my grandmother so much some days, he'd sleep all day the next from exhaustion. When he died, he too got "sainted." His funeral was done by a minister who'd met him maybe once, talking about how he too was going into the loving arms of God and what an amazing and wonderful man he'd been. My family went on and on, wailing over his (much anticipated) demise. How good he looked in the casket. (He looked dead. He looked sick. He looked like a formerly sick, now dead person.)

I felt like I'd entered the Twilight Zone.

Truthfully, I don't believe in the same "heaven" or "hell" that most do... I do believe "heaven" and "hell" are states of being, rather than say, my friend's mother's belief that hell is quite literally in the center of the earth and heaven is out far away in the Milky Way.

So in that way, yes. Funerals are terribly difficult for me because I find them so, well, by in large silly. These concepts of heaven and hell and sainting come up and I feel like I've entered some sort of altered dimension I'm not at all a part of.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Back to the "should" thing - I rather feel that those things are what come out of people's mouths and in their actions, not because they've thought about, examined, discerned their true beliefs, but rather more of a function of *popular* faith in what should be said, or done. I think when people talk about so and so having gone to meet their maker, or to a better place, or getting their "reward" - I think they're repeating phrases they've always heard others use without questioning them to deeply. And I think if they did question, they'd find their beliefs and verbiage and actions and everything else, are somewhat inconsistent with each other. (hence why being a part of that is so difficult.)

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

I pretty much believe that death is the end. Your body decomposes and your intellect and personality cease to exist except in the memories of those who knew you. To me, this seems like a good reason to seize days and moments as often as possible, since there is no second chance or continuation. I don't hold this position immovably ... I may be wrong, and at some point in the future I may be persuaded to believe otherwise. But I doubt it. (I also have trouble with the traditional Heaven/Hell concept, for the reasons Lynda elucidated above.)

I'd like my funeral to be a simple affair without religious overtones. I'm leaning toward a desire to be cremated, and then a quiet memorial service for those still around who were close to me. No preaching, maybe a eulogy or two from people who feel moved to offer one. And the Alan Parsons Project song "Old And Wise" played at the end.

And to those I leave behind
I want you all to know
You've always shared my deepest thoughts
I'll miss you when I go
And oh
When I'm old and wise
Bitter words mean little to me
Like autumn winds, will blow right through me
And someday
In the mists of time
When they ask you if you knew me
You'll smile and say you were a friend of mine ...

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Turning off the italic.

Sorry, I'm still getting used to how this board works.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2001

Eh, fixing these things is my reason for living. No biggee.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

I want my funeral to be a New Orlean's style party when I go. No sappy crap, nothing religious at all. Cremate me and spread my ashes in my garden.

Just spent an enjoyable morning chuckling at all the new things at http://www.evolvefish.com ...

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

I believe that all of us are part of a greater power, and that when we die, the essence of who we were, the good and bad parts, is added to that greater power. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, and I don't believe that the people I've loved who have gone before me are "up there" waiting for me.

There isn't a whole lot of comfort to be found in that philsophy, and I am somtimes envious of those who are so sure that they will see their loved ones again. But I just can't believe that.

The absolute worst funeral I have ever been to was for my brother-in-law, who died in an accident in his late 20's, leaving behind my sister and two kids under two. John's family was fundamentalist, and the service was held in their church. It was three hours long. Two hours and 55 minutes was taken up by a hellfire and damnation sermon. People were speaking in tongues and fainting in the aisles. It might have been a comfort to his father, but it freaked out the rest of us.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

The Bible is the greatest book ever written. In it God Himself speaks to men. It is a book of divine instruction. It offers comfort in sorrow, guidance in perplexity, advice for our problems, rebuke for our sins, & daily inspriation for our every need. The Bible is not simply one book. It is an entire library of books covering the whole range of literature. It includes history, poetry, drama, biography, prophecy, philosophy, science, & inspriational reading. Little wonder, then, that all or part of the Bible has been translated into more than 1,200 languages, & every year more copies of the Bible are sold than any other single book. The Bible alone truly answers the greatest questions that men of all ages have asked: "Where have I come from?" "Where am I going?" "Why am I here?" "How can I know the truth?" For the Bible reveals the truth about God, explains the origin of man, points out the only way to salvation & eternal life, & explains the age-old problem of sin & suffering.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Um, but a little infomercial for the Bible doesn't really address the question I asked. We've already discussed whether the Bible is a bunch of hooey, and a significant number either don't think the Bible has any divine inspiration, or else they don't think it's a literal representation of God's words.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

Besides, the Dianetics book had a better ad campaign, especially since it featured the page numbers to find the answers to those questions. That would save a lot of time.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2001

As Al mentioned, funerals are more for the living than they are for the dead. So no, I have no problem sitting there and letting people deal with death in whatever way works for them. I was thinking of requesting that no funeral be held for me upon my demise. But that's really not for me to decide, is it?

As for what I think happens to us when we die, nothing. We stop thinking, seeing and sensing. No heaven. No hell. We can't even think "Boy, it sure is dark in here!" That's right, no purgatory. The very idea scares the bejeezus out of me but I've learned to accept it.

Recently, however, I've become fascinated with the idea of life energy. Where does it come from? Can it be replenished? Does it run out or merely move on? I have no idea. Do I sound like a hippy?

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

What do I believe? In a nutshell, I believe that as the body decomposes, the soul or spirit is judged, and sent to heaven, purgatory, or possibly another incarnation, as appropriate. I believe that people get what's coming to them, whether that be reward for the good they've done in their lives, or punishment for the bad. And I tend to think the latter dominates more than the former.

In general, I prefer to consider God in His capacity as the True Judge, rather than focusing on His merciful or loving qualities. It makes me feel better about life. If there's no justice, there's no point.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2001

I don't believe in life after death, and I am consistently amazed that anyone can take such a concept seriously. I have never felt bad for thinking that. Anyone is welcome to believe what they want, but I feel no guilt for seeing certain beliefs as misguided, or even ludicrous.

The last two funerals I attended (a friend's, and my maternal grandfather's) were not held at churches nor attended by clergy. At both, people stood up and offered remembrances of the deceased. Several individuals mentioned a belief that these folks have moved on to another life, or were "still with us" in a sense beyond memory. Most people just told a story or two about the person, which provided joy at the lives of these great people, and a reminder that our sorrow was rooted in a real loss.

I hope that when I go, I can have a service like that... I also think that the funeral is as much for the deceased as the survivors. I won't have any problem sitting through a traditional Catholic funeral when my paternal grandmother goes (which won't be for some time, I hope). This will be what she wanted, and a representation of her life.

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2001