"I don't mind going to Hell. All my friends will be there."

Those who say such things don't believe in the biblical concept of Hell. This is simply because their understanding of the nature of God is erroneous. The slow-witted criminal thinks that the electric chair is a place to put up his feet for a while and relax. It may be wise therefore to speak with him for a few moments about the reasonableness of a place called "Hell." Reason with him by saying, "If a judge in Florida turns a blind eye to the unlawful dealings of the Mafia; if he sees their murderous acts and deliberately turns the other way, is he a good or bad judge? He's obviously corrupt, and should be brought to justice himself. If he is a good judge, he will do everything within his power to bring those murderers to justice. He should make sure that they are justly punished.

If Almighty God sees a man rape and strangle to death your sister or mother, do you think He should look the other way, or bring that murderer to justice? If He looks the other way, He's corrupt and should be brought to justice Himself. It makes sense then-that if God is good, He will therefore do everything in His power to make sure that justice is done. The Bible tells us that He will punish murderers, and the place of punishment-the prison God will send them to is-a place called 'Hell.'

God should punish murderers and rapists. However, God is so good, he will also punish thieves, liars, adulterers, fornicators, and blasphemers. He will even punish those who desired to murder and rape but never had the opportunity. He warns that if we hate someone, we commit murder in our hearts. If we lust, we commit adultery in the heart, etc." Then ask him if he would sell an eye for a million dollars. Would he sell both for ten million? No one in his right mind would. Our eyes are precious to us. How much more then is our soul (our life) worth? Gently tell him that if your eyes meet his on Judgment Day, and he is still in his sins, you are free from his blood, because you haven't held back from telling him the truth of the Gospel . . . the whole counsel of God.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001

Answers

Well put. So that includes all drunks and drug addicts too. That means alot of forumites will be there.

-- truth Teller (1st@2.go), May 17, 2001.

Well put. So that includes all drunks and drug addicts too. That means alot of forumites will be there.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You can't get their on your own goodness or good works I'm afraid.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

What about forgiveness?

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), May 17, 2001.

What about forgiveness?

Forgiveness isn't given until you are willing to ask for it.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

AC - about forgiveness...I thought one just had to accept it, not ask for it.

-- (bygrace@thru.faith), May 17, 2001.

Atheist Corner, you seem to believe that God judges people on a purely binary basis. You = good person = heaven. Mother raper = bad person = hell. Did it ever occur to you that the world is much messier than that?

For example, one of God's commandments is "You shall not steal." Mighty simple commandment. Either you have stolen or you haven't, right? What about someone who stole a lollipop when they were six, never repented or asked God's forgiveness at the time, and now can't even recall that the theft happened - so they will certainly die unrepentant.

What say, AC, scorching hellfire or eternal bliss?

For the sake of argument, let's assume you quote us some scripture that you think covers this case exactly and gives a clear, unambiguous answer to the final destination of this person.

Suppose the clear unambiguous answer is eternal hellfire, then how well do you think your argument that God is like a wise human judge will stand up? Any human judge who consigned another human to eternal burning hell for a lollipop would be shunned as insane!

Suppose the clear unambiguous answer is eternal bliss in heaven, then it is a simple matter to nudge the case just a tiny bit further toward mother rape (make it five dollars stolen from his mother's purse) and re-ask the same question. If the answer is still eternal bliss, we can just slide the sin a bit further and ask again. Eventually, the answer must slip over from heaven to hell, right? And the basis for that VAST change from eternal bliss to eternal damnation would be a slight, almost imperceptible difference between two nearly identical sins.

That is the trouble with such binary thinking as heaven and hell. Your beliefs about them either make God look criminally insane, or entirely arbitrary. But the real fault is not in God, it is in your irrational beliefs.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

if we could be''good enough'' we wouldn,t need JESUS. try FOCUSING on what the answer is,instead of the problem. NO-ONE has to got to hell-pride will send 1 there-not GOD. ONCE we trust JESUS for our eternal-life=NOTHING can stop it. no matter how much-we need changing,HE will do the changing!! we can rest in his power to bring us home.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 17, 2001.

Roman Catholic is the best religion. You can sin all you want and be forgiven every Saturday.

-- (@theist...), May 17, 2001.

Thanks Al.

My point to this exactly. There is no way to get there on your own. We ALL need help.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

AC - about forgiveness...I thought one just had to accept it, not ask for it.

We must admit we are unable to meet the requirements of the LAW (old testament) before we can accept the forgiveness Jesus offers in the new testament.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Through the act of repentantance, we ask for forgiveness.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

Ooops! Should of spell checked that last post.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

"...if God is good, He will therefore do everything in His power to make sure that justice is done. The Bible tells us that He will punish murderers, and the place of punishment-the prison God will send them to is-a place called 'Hell.'"

"God should punish murderers and rapists. However, God is so good, he will also punish thieves, liars, adulterers, fornicators, and blasphemers. He will even punish those who desired to murder and rape but never had the opportunity."

"There is no way to get [to heaven] on your own. We ALL need help."

So your point is that everyone, from the tiniest newborn infant to your own grandmother is, in God's eyes, the exact equivalent of a rapist-murderer who must be brought to "justice" by sending them to burn in hell's fiery pit for all eternity?

Or is it more arbitrary than that?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

after MANY years of goin round the doctrine-bush--the ONLY sin I can find un-forgivable is un-belief[after] hearing the TRUTH!!

THE SECRET OF true=CHRISTIANITY IS [CHRIST[IN] US DOING THE WORK!! not striving in own strength-but TRUSTING HIM to do it!! JESUS said''abide in his love-and we will produce good-fruit- effortlessly.-a fruit tree doesn,t-strain to produce-fruit, in due season it just happens.SO as we grow in GRACE it will happen-in spite of outward conditions.GOD does the pruning-so we just need to REST in HIS promises ,in spite of circumstances!!

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), May 17, 2001.

So your point is that everyone, from the tiniest newborn infant to your own grandmother is, in God's eyes, the exact equivalent of a rapist-murderer who must be brought to "justice" by sending them to burn in hell's fiery pit for all eternity?

Or is it more arbitrary than that?

If you are trying to lead your life under the LAW (old testament) alone, to answer your question in a word, yes.

God's word spells it out for us. all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

Nipper, in your eye's how many of God's laws must we break before we sin?

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

The law was made to show us we couldn't do things on our own. In Galations, Paul tells us that people trying to live by the law are cursed. There is no way we can live by the law and get to Heaven. God did this to show us we needed help. A savior. His name is/was Jesus.

Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

Al, for the most part I find your focus on love, grace and forgiveness to be refreshing, because it sidesteps the other things in Christianity that I find toxic - the emphasis on hell, sin, punishment and the exclusion of non-believers from God's presence. AC is a classic example of what I find to be a toxic christian. He brandishes all the usual threats.

In spite of the Bible, in spite of my sinful nature, in spite of the fact that I am not "born again in Christ" and have therefore committed the one "unforgivable" sin in al's book, I am not going to hell. You can take that to the bank.

A religion that bullies and threatens us is a flawed faith. God doesn't need hell. AC said as much, although he'll never see it.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

Nipper, even Al believes in hell.

Re-read his earlier post where he says: NO-ONE has to got to hell-pride will send 1 there-not GOD.

Your pride. The pride you have in doing things on your own. Your pride of not accepting Jesus as your savior from the law.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

"If you are trying to lead your life under the LAW (old testament) alone... yes [the tiniest newborn infant must be brought to "justice" by sending it to burn in hell's fiery pit for all eternity]"

AC, newborn infants are notorious for leading their lives in a completely lawless fashion. They are ignorant of the Bible and Jesus. Although all newborns are sinners, they take no care for their eternal souls. They are extremely selfish creatures, too. And many die before they come to Jesus. Be glad the little guys are getting their comeuppance.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

In spite of the Bible, in spite of my sinful nature, in spite of the fact that I am not "born again in Christ" and have therefore committed the one "unforgivable" sin in al's book, I am not going to hell. You can take that to the bank.

What do you base this on?

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

New born babies are not sinners. They will not be sinners until they reach the age of accountability.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

Regarding 'scare tactics'

In the late 1980s, the U.S. aired TV advertisements that asked, "What goes through the mind of a driver who is not wearing a seat belt in a head-on collision?" Then they showed a crash dummy having its head crushed by a steering wheel in a collision, and said, "The steering wheel!" Those were scare tactics, but no one complained because they were legitimate scare tactics. That's what happens in a head-on collision if you are foolish enough not to put on a seat belt. To warn of Hell is fearful, but it is absolutely legitimate, because the Bible says that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

It's a fearful thing to fall in the hands of anyone who doesn't see a difference between an infant and Charles Manson.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 17, 2001.

AC, right-o! It all amounts to this argument:

AC: If you do not believe hell exists then you will go to hell for not believing hell exists.

Me: How do you know hell exists?

AC: Jesus told me.

Me: How did Jesus know that hell exists?

AC: Well, duh, Jesus was God, so of course he knew it.

Me: How do I know Jesus was God?

AC: He said so and He committed miracles and He rose from the dead and he fullfilled prophesy. It is all in the Bible and the Bible is all true.

Me: How do I know any of this Bible stuff is true?

AC: Well, there are a bunch of answers, but in the end it all comes down to faith. You really don't know it is true, you believe it.

Me: So, if it all comes down to faith, tell me again how you know I am going to hell.

AC: Because I believe you will. If you don't believe the same as I do, you will go to hell.

Me: Uh, yeah. I see.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

"Is 'Hell-fire' preaching effective?"

Preaching the reality of Hell, without using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin, can do a great deal of damage to the cause of the Gospel. A sinner cannot conceive of the thought that God would send anyone to Hell, as long as he is deceived into thinking that God's standard of righteousness is the same as his. Paul "reasoned" with Felix of temperance, righteousness and judgment to come. This is the righteousness that is of the Law and judgment by the Law. Felix "trembled" because he suddenly understood that his intemperance made him a guilty sinner in the sight of a holy God. The reality of Hell suddenly became reasonable to him when the Law was used to bring the knowledge of sin.

Imagine if the police suddenly burst into your home, arrested you, and angrily said, "You are going away for a long time!" Such conduct would probably leave you bewildered and angry. What they have done seems unreasonable. However, if the law burst into your home and instead told you specifically why you were in trouble by saying, "We have discovered 10,000 marijuana plants growing in your back yard. You are going away for a long time!" at least you would understand why you are in trouble. Knowledge of the law you had transgressed furnished you with that understanding. It makes judgment reasonable. Hell-fire preaching without use of the Law to show the sinner why God is angry with him will more than likely leave him bewildered and angry-for what he considers unreasonable punishment.

-- Atheist Corner (Truth or@Consequences.con), May 17, 2001.

New born babies are not sinners. They will not be sinners until they reach the age of accountability.

What do you base this on?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 17, 2001.

Is this the religious malestrom stuff that made Old Git finally bail from EZ?

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), May 17, 2001.

No it is the Marg wannabe shit. Ask her.

-- next (truth@or.dare), May 17, 2001.