Anybody fancy a bit of controversy, just to maybe liven things up a bit ?

What are the feelings on the venereal Ronald Biggs being allowed to end his days at our expense rather than being left to fester and rot in Brazil ?

And on the Sun's part in bringing the scumbag back.

Needless to say, I despair.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Answers

AP

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Can't understand why everyone is trying to make a hero out of this criminal who is only coming over here because he can't get the medical attention he needs because his ill gotten gains have run out.

I wasn't alive at the time of the robbery or the aftermath of it but from my viewpoint this country has a funny way of idolising people lik Biggs and the Krays.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Yes but you could walk the streets safely in those days. Unfortunately it wasn't very safe if you were a drain driver though.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

it was damn tough in those days, most drain drivers never saw the light, only rats and dirty water, yep them were ard days

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

And have you ever tried steering a drain?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

I'm sorry folks, it looks like my fingers are suffering from cold.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

I reckon he should start where he left off - clearly he's taking the piss. Also the Scum has no credit as Biggs' son said any money received from newspapers etc would be used towards an appeal. Daring crime, certainly, but so was signing Silvio Maric.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Why on earth did they give him a visa to allow him to travel back into the country....they should've let him die over there...

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Got it in one again, Gav.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

I didn't realise that a British citizen with a long jail term to complete required a visa to enter the country.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Well they had to issue him some document or other to get him back into the country....

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Wasn't that the arrest warrant? Or had that expired?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

I believe it was a passport that was issued to him - unsurprisingly, his previous one had run out. As a British citizen he could not be prevented from coming home, and in his case coming home inevitably meant arrest and reimprisonment. While The Sun facilitated this by flying him back, in this instance I don't see they have done anything to be villified for - you could even argue they have achieved what the authorities have failed to do for however long it is he has been on the run.

The man was totally wrong to commit the crime he did: escaping and living in exile was understandable in the circumstances.

I realise I'm a contrarian on this one, but the mean-spiritedness of the British on something like this leaves me cold. What's done is done, and the clock can't be turned back 30 years: he is now a very old, frail and ill man with little of his natural life left. He has voluntarily returned and is now incarcerated.

I realise that it seems likely he has returned to obtain better medical care than he can obtain or afford in Brazil, but I truly can't bring myself to deny the man access to medical attention at his stage of his life, and in consideration of his very poor state of health.

The only aspect of this situation that troubles me is if he were to receive priority medical attention, and in all honesty I believe he will. I do find it abhorrent that he could get treatment in preference to other law-abiding elderly patients, perhaps serviceman or women, requiring similar care. For this reason, I believe he should be released from custody on compassionate grounds, and left to secure treatment under the NHS on the same basis as every other citizen , and hopefully forgotten. As a person, and a citizen, he is not worthy of further consideration.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Fit enough to fly, fit enough to fry.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

..... glad you're with me on that one then Dave!

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

It's not that the health care in this country is better than that available in Brazil - fact of the case is that his health insurance over there had expired at 70, he can't get a renewal on the insurance and what little money he had left has been swallowed up in the last couple of years.

Bottom line, he knew if he came back here he would get arrested and put in prison, (he was told that before he left Rio) but he also knew that as a prisoner, he would get priority treatment that a normal waiting list patient wouldn't get, so the pro's by far outweighed the con's (so to speak).

It is right that he should be banged up in Bellmarsh, he should only be allowed to leave the place in a wooden box destined for a hole in the ground or a to be put in a fire, and the full cost of keeping him in prison in the meantime, and his health care should be paid for IN FULL by the Sun.

The stupid arseholes should have left him to die in pain and agony in friggin Brazil.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

....I'm getting the feeling that I'm out on a limb here!
Won't change my view though - vengeance is cheap, can be instantly gratifying, but imo is inappropriately directed at a sad, ill old man.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Your views are admiarble Clarky. But for the second time in a week, I have to disagree. Biggs was a criminal - still is. He compounded this by absconding from Her Majesty's pleasure, and caused the British Government huge expense. He lived the life of Riley, sticking two fingers up at his "home country". He served a mer 15-18 months of a 30 year sentence (which I agree was too harsh).

But to think he should be allowed to come back and stick another 2 fingers up at those of us who stayed to earn an honest living (no doubt sown on the front page of that stalwart justice seeker The Sun.

My old Ma's from his generation. As far as I know, she's done nowt criminal in her life, yet she worries (unfounded mind you) and whether she will be able to stay in her house (which she and me Old Da worked bkiddy hard to own) for the rest of her life. To think that some "rascal" can come back at a whim to live his final few days/weeks/months/years at her expense is more than I can stand. I repeat - Biggs is a criminal. What does it say to the up-and-coming criminals that we should pamper him onhis return? Send him back from whence he came (Wandsworth, I believe). It's too late to prevent the toe-rag coming back (which would have been my preference).

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

No-one is questioning that what he did 35 yrs ago was very wrong. However, in a free democratic state you cannot prevent a British subject from coming back to his country. That is all he has done, aided by The Sun, and was instantly arrested and put back inside.

Accepting for the moment that we could not legitimately deny his 're-entry' into this country, are you really saying that we should now deny medical treatment for an old man who is in extremely poor health, whether in prison or not? Surely not?

At that juncture in the discussion my concern regards the fact that I don't believe he should receive priority medical treatment - priority that other law- abiding citizens would not get. That I believe is wrong. So, how can that be avoided?

I see no point in keeping such an old frail man in jail until he passes away, and bearing all the associated costs. Vengeance has no value in my vocabulary - it achieves nothing for society. Therefore, as I said earlier I would release him on compassionate grounds, and leave him and his family to secure the necessary treatment on the NHS. He is undeserving of special treatment or attention and should take his chances like everyone else, but if we insist on keeping him incarcerated he will inevitably receive priority treatment. I feel he should denied that privilege, but in the only humane way available.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Perhaps they could let him go on compassionate grounds so that he can sleep in a cardboard box like the other folk who haven't paid their NI contributions. Can't help but feel his health would be better if he hadn't spent 30 years being lionized by morons.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

"Ronnie Biggs was doing time

Till he done a bunk.

Now 'e says e's seen the light

And he's sold his soul to punk."

'Ere Softie - are you calling me a lion ?? I love them moron Sex Pistols I do. Marvellous harmonies

;7}

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2001

Having some 'inside' knowledge of prison doctors (pardon the pun) I think his treatment will satisfy all of the Outraged of Ealing on here.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2001

Outraged of where? How dare you cast aspersions on the character of my adopted neighbourhood. Outrageous behaviour!
Unsuitably aggrieved
Mr Miller, W13 8HE

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2001

Hey everyone, I've got a great idea......

Lets get Peter Sutcliffe, Harold Shipman and all those other lovely people so cruelly and wrongly locked up, put them on a plane, take them to Brazil, let them knock up so local tart so that they can't be forced to come back.

They can then sit around the carnivals of Rio and drink the best champagne, eat the best food available and stick two fingers up at all the hard working law abiding people in this country.....and then, when they have a dicky tummy, we can get the Sun to send a plane, bring them back, give them a couple of aspirin and send them off to a free life in the English countryside, as I'm sure they will have suffer terrible trauma's while they were sunning themselves on the beaches of Brazil.

Well fuck me, that's what some people on here seem to be advocating.

FACE FACTS......he is a cold blooded KILLER and THIEF and a BANDIT....he is not some Fletcher style lovelable old lag. THe b@st@rd should have been left to rot in some slime pit in Brazil.

Rant over!

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2001

Step away from the emotion, ITK - the man has returned to the UK, as he has every right to do, and was arrested and locked up as soon as he set foot on British soil. So what's the problem?

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

Clarky - the thing is, something like this raises all sorts of emotions. If you take the emotion away, then yes, it can be argued that a poor old man should be looked after by his native country.

But it ain't that easy. I don't know the legal picture, but it seems to me that this guy deserted his country many years ago. At that stage, in my eyes, he relinquished any rights he might have had.

Of course, issuing him with a new passport and allowing him back into this country does perhaps re-instate his rights. Yes - he was a fugitive and "Slipper of the Yard" (RIP??) and his present-day equivalents will now have one more missing fugitive crossed off their list. Perhaps the biggest mistake was to issue a temporary passport. Funny how he never applied (AFIK) or received a passport from his adopted country.

Sorry - but I can not simply divorce the emotion from the reality. Life's an emotional experience. As I said in my earlier post, he should have been left in Brazil. But as he was allowed back, then he should be incarcerated for the rest of his sentence. And he should not receive any special treatment whatsoever.

As they said on HIGNFY last night - his sentence should be changed - from 30 years to life.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

Screacher - one last try.

No one has 'allowed' Biggs to do anything, and similarly nobody 'reinstated his rights'. He is a British citizen until he dies, and had every right to return to his country whenever he wished, whatever you might wish to believe.

If you're suggesting we should tinker with the rights of citizens of this fair island to suit one particular case, however much emotion it had raised, I would suggest that could be a very dangerous precedent for the rest of us.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

Clarky - if we hadn't given him a new temporary passport, could he have come back? If we are bound to issue such a document, then clearly he was able to come back into the country. But only (in my mind) to complete his sentence.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

A passport is a right of a British subject - that is my point. He could not legitimately be refused a passport, and in this respect anyway, is not being afforded special treatment.

The issue of medical care is an entirely different one.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

Clarky....my final posting on this issue as I'm sure we will never see eye to eye on it, however, I'm not arguing that he is not legitimately allowed to hold a passport, nor that at any time in the last thirty years could he have exercised his rights to use it and come back to face the justice he was cocking a snoop at, of course he could, my problem is with the "oh dear, he's a frail old man and should be allowed to go free" brigade.....why should he escape justice like that?

I also object to him being able to use all his money on the high life of Rio and then when he can't afford health care, he comes back here and gets it for free.

It's really a disgrace that so many others have to miss out, yet he can come back and get whatever is needed for him.

We had an old family friend/very distant relation who wasn't allowed or afforded that kind of nicety, and as a result he died some twenty odd years ago, his name was Jack Mills - you may have read about him.....he was a train driver.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

I brought this up and haven't posted a thing. One thing I will say is that he shouldn't have his sin(s) forgiven just because he got old.

The most nauseating aspect is the way he's being turned into a kind of folk hero.

Are we completely loony ? My cycnicism has me expecting this kind of crap from my fellow humans, but when it happens, it still makes me despair.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001