As I mentioned earlier on another thread, I do lurk at the Christian forum and the freedom forum, but don't participate in either as I'm quite certain I'm not welcome at all on the Christian forum and on the freedom forum would rather stay out of their discussions because I'm not PC enuf for the "right".

I'm really struck by the "seperatist" rhetoric. Tho we don't often here, on this board say the same kinds of things, we HAVE congregated here to "isolate" ourselves from "them" and have formed a sort of safe haven for ourselves, and truth be told, I like it.

So many seem to have an us against them view on things. The Christians seem to have an "us-against-the-world" mindset, considering others who don't believe as they do as practically the enemy. They really seem to have a jihad mindset that I think is kinda scary.

Similarly, the "righties" seem to think we're all nuts if we're not conservative. The polarization seems to get deeper as time goes by.

I can honestly relate to the "thirsting after rightousness" kinds of comments on the Christian board, just as I can relate to some of the "conservative" comments about too much government etc.

Why is it not enuf to simply recognize and respect our common humanity? A good person is a good person, whether they call themselves a pagan, protestant, Jew, Muslem, Hindu, or Buddhist. None are without moral values and most share very similar moral values. Truly, what does it take to bring such a diverse assemblage together? I honestly don't see how a nation can stand when there's so much division amongst its people.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Answers

". The Christians seem to have an "us-against-the-world" mindset, considering others who don't believe as they do as practically the enemy. They really seem to have a jihad mindset that I think is kinda scary."

john, I really think we need to be careful that our "reality" is not formed by what we see on these forums. In my everyday life I do not find most Christians to be like the ones on the two forums you are speaking of. I lurk too, and I think it is a rather small sampling of what Christians are that you are seeing there. Mostly it is the same people posting on both forums and the same ones who stomped all over everyone on the CS forum that didn't believe exactly the way they do. I choose to wear a headcovering and dresses. Did you see how I was ridiculed by several of them when I spoke of it on the Christian forum?? I don't read the "right Bible translation".

The way I see it, the reason we are all here instead of there is because we do chose to recognize and respect our common humanity.

I have given a great deal of thought to my part in the fiasco on the CS forum and I think I would do it all again, perhaps a little more graceful and tactful, but none-the-less I would do it again. It is my strong belief that the person called Judy (inhishands) who wrote the awful thread about us Christians who were going to lead believers to the evil one and Little Bit Farm were the same people. I could never prove it, but I feel in my gut very certain about it.

I am so happy to be here and able to enjoy people of all walks of life and I find myself posting less and less on the other forum. If I couldn't look past those forums and see my neighborhood, this forum etc. I would be feeling very hopeless. I refuse to surrender to a spirit of defeat which can overtake us if we focus too much on peoples fears instead of love. Just my humble opinion.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

I'd say the further right a person becomes the thing that drives then is absolute fear. Probably to the point of being sick. Arm yourself because the Russians or Chinese are going to get ya. The goverment or Clinton or your neighbor or gays or whatever! Something or someone is always after them or trying to take something they have away. Thats why its so hard to even have a simple conversation because they thing your trying to take something from them too! Ever notice that?...Kirk

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Wow John-Did you just talk to Jim? We were just talking about this.Either that or you are receiving my thoughts! All I can say is 'my thoughts exactly'.Wow.You are spooky(not an insult).

I told Jim the only thing that counts in the long run is that you be a decent person.Especially to those you love.The only thing. All the rest is windowdressing. That is truly how I feel.What's a decent person? Don't ask me.I'm no moses on the mount.Ask your heart.

When I tried to be an encompassing person on CS,I felt I was viewed as suspect.Let's see, the christians thot I pagan and the pagans thot I christian.Is there a reason I can't be both? Because I am components of both.My reaction was also "Is there a reason you have to know at all what my very personal spiritual beliefs are in the first place? Being mighty nosey,aren't you. Is there some litmus test of spirituality I have to pass to post on CS?" Guess I flunked!

And I'm very conservative in some things and not in others.Which of course turned me into a lying,hypocritical,leftleaning ,unamericam ecofreak.Whew.I've been busy!I'm pretty tired now.Think I'll take a nap.

Like some of you,I'd never been called so many thing in all my life.If someone that actually knew me thought these things of me,well,I would definitely give it some serious introspection.But my reation here in the virtual world was "and who the hell are you to decide who I am? You don't even KNOW me." And Yeah, Rodney King Sheepish, I too kept saying "Why can't we all just get along?" :o) I felt and I still feel we had more in common than not, by the life style we've chosen.Who cares how you got to that point,what's important is that you're here.Right?

On division...My state's motto is United we stand,divided we fall.But those that seek to destroy us all (bc they are,I don't know, posessed,I guess) intentionally instigate to divide and conquer.And we leave ourselves be used that way bc we do not see what's going on.I did over on CS and tried to say so,but I was an unheard voice in the forest.Not that I'm not use to that,mind you!

Isolationist..yep,you got me again.Let's see I intentionally live so far back in I'm lost and am happier than a pig in s**t.I really only want to see a person maybe once a week.I'm happy to interact with people from time to time,exactly bc I don't have to do it every day! I love to have visitors come and stay,as long as they leave after 3 days bc,by then, I'm sick and tired of them.So,if you ever come to visit,and you are more than welcome to do so,plan a three day maximun stay!

And,yes.I would love for like minded people to come and buy farms next to me so we all could talk and help each other.Guess that's because that's how I grew up.

Which brings up why I believe things are so fractured.We are no longer in stable communities.We move around all over the place.And then,get on each others nerves.I have not lived one place more than 5 years since I was 18.Expanded my horizons,yes,but left me without roots.I'm now trying to grow roots. No regrets mind you,but know what I'm lacking,too

We don't grow up down the lane from Gramma's and don't have the benefit of learning some of that elder wisdom by "osmosis". That's what I call what you pick up without knowing it just by being around them and listening.I did grow up down the lane from Gramma's,literally,,and am eternally grateful.

There is so much more,didn't even get into the population vs it's the government aspect.But I'm shutting up,now.I'm tired of typing,and you have already overstayed your welcome. :o)

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Actually, any one at any time is welcome to post on the Freedom and Self Reliance forum. It was not started as an "us against them" forum. It was started to be an uncensored forum, which Countryside obviously is not any more. People there may or may not agree with what people from this forum post, but it will not be deleted nor will any one call you stupid, etc. There are a lot of political postings there because most of the people who use it are very politically aware. We are not afraid. We are concerned. Remember the adage, the Lord helps those that help themselves. People on that forum are just preparing to help themselves in any situation that may arise. There is a difference.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

"A nation divided against itself must surely fall" Somebody said that; can't remember who at the moment.

I like nice people. I avoid people who act ugly. That pretty much sums it up.

I, too, would love to live in a like minded community. Sometimes in my pleasant daydreams I imagine that I live next door to Sheepish and buy wool for my comforters and yarn to crochet. And John lives just down the road - you know, down where I buy my bedding plants. Sharon comes over to help me divide my herbs and we sneak a little gin in our lemon balm coolers and the neighbors drive by and wonder why we're rolling on the ground laughing in the herb beds. Diane and I swap comfortable dress patterns; while Dave and Kim provide my baby chicks each year. Jim is the guy I call to help me unsnarl my computer, and he always brings Ruth along so I have someone to talk to while he's off muttering computer language in the other room. Later, we all go over to Kirk's for a carry in dinner around his slip-form fire pit - Julie brings strawberry shortcake and gives all the kids a ride on her horse while Joy brings in a box of kittens that needs new homes - and sure enough, they'll all find a good one here. Oh-oh - there's Sharon and David, over there behind that tree....are they doing what I think they're doing?! Quick, someone - go get Nick! They're swapping tomato seeds again!!

Now, I know I've forgotten a few folks in my daydream - I'm sure they'll show up later on; maybe at the quilting bee, or the community honey extraction!

As far as moving around and breaking up the sense of community - yeah, I see that as part of the problem. I've lived on this farm or very near it for my entire life. I used to know everyone on this side of the township - now I don't even know the last name of my neighbor on the next road north. And if you get more than a mile or two away, I odn't even know them by sight. It used to be us and one old farm couple on this road. Now we've got the yuppies across the road who hate living in the country (I keep sending them psycic messages to move!), the guy down the road who inherited part of the old farm couples ground and promptly sold it off - he's not much interested in anything but his beer and his Harley. Then there's the dope dealers - no, not the ones that got busted and hauled off to the pokey; these are the new ones that moved in a while back. The ones that got busted, well all their junky old cars and house trailers with the windows busted out - they're still there; if you can see them for the 8 foot tall horse weeds that are growing all over. At the other end of the road, the other boy that inherited ground sold his to a local developer and there's been a lot of bulldozing going on lately - probably a new subdivision going in, with my luck! I always wanted this to be a centennial farm - now I'm not so sure. Maybe it will soon be time to take my profit and sell out, and move farther back in the woods.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Polly, I like your community! Let's all get moving!

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Yep polly,yer definitely all right.I'm right now, rolling in the herb beds,laughing.That hit of whiskey this am really helped calm the nerves, don't you know?

So when you all moving to Kentucky? I'll have Nick run off the neighbors for you so you can buy the farms cheep. He starts walking around nekked like he's been threating,and carrying around that meat cleaver he's been haulin' in the truck(I ask him what it was for-I was a little worried) that probably will suffice to scare the H**L out of 'em.I'll put up a few of my smart allecky signs and spread rumors about a big drug bust coming to our neighborhood and that should finish the job for you. Let me know the timetable and we'll get crackin'.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

It's easy to get the feeling that a very vocal minority represents the majority opinion. If you look at CS, most of the posts are still down to earth genuine homesteading questions. What is sad is that I get the feeling that the minority sometimes sets out to deliberately cause chaos or dissent. This furthers their feeling of being persecuted when they get the exact response they expect! Some on FSR have even bragged about being inflammatory on CS. The positive on CS far exceeds the negative, and it's best just to ignore the negative, realising that it is destructive.

So far, we have not had any destructive or counterproductive posts on BTS. Let's all try really hard to keep it that way.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

I sometimes read stuff on the "Freedom" forum but it would not be very comfortable for me over there. I appreaciate diversity and tolerance and I don't feel that exists there, and I can't take that bible thumping. That separatist and conspiracy stuff makes the hair on my neck stand up, theres enough junk in the day to day grind without seeing the boogie man behind every tree. I don't post very often and you nice folks don't know me very well, but I'm here every day. I use to be a regular on BWH forum, but it has changed so much that I hardly even read some of the threads, even though there are some really nice folks still there. I'll take some of that Gin Polly even if it is midmorning, a good laugh is good for the soul.

Have a nice day and thanks for being here.

Namaste,

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Must be something in the air, because I've been mulling over a lot of the same things, John. But, you know, I've seen you post variations of the questions you ask in the last paragraph MANY, MANY times on CS. That's the first thing I remember noticing about you. It seems that question was ignored, except by people such as we here. Which is probably why we all thought of each other as compatible sorts. I don't think anyone can answer WHY folks can't/won't get along.

Kirk may have come close, though -- fear. Yes, Kirk, I have noticed that if you try to discuss anything, there is a certain contingent that thinks you're trying to take something away from them. Case in point: Every discussion thread (and there were a number of them) on overpopulation, those of us in favor of lowering population were accused of demanding abortions or that someone with several children choose which ones to give up/kill off. None of asked/demanded those things. If those are not real fears, then such accusations are injected merely to inflame.

Ava, I think most of us are aware that we could post on Freedom forum, should we choose. Most of us are choosing not to do so. We started this forum as a haven for a bunch of us who were tired of fighting, being labelled, judged, and called names, and constantly admonished for not having the "correct" spiritual orientation. Most of us still participate at CS, as well. But this is our haven (so far). Those not playing nice will get the boot.

Some of us may choose to participate in one or another of the other two "offshoots". However, I doubt that I will be. I would DEFINITELY not be welcome at the Christian discussion group -- I'm not a Christian. As for the Freedom forum, there's a difference between being allowed and being welcome. I suggest you read (or reread) this thread: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=0051Ao I found it to be mean-spirited -- more labelling and judging. Does this group (or any other) not have the right to form a group on their own, or to belong to more than one group? But I guess I'm too sensitive, too touchy-feely to enjoy the "humor" in that thread. We didn't describe the Freedom forum as the "meanies" -- someone on that forum came up with that designation. Well, enough on that subject, all it does is raise my blood pressure and interfere with my sleep.

Hey, Polly, your community sounds great. I've had similar discussions with other groups, but it always breaks down when it comes to choosing a place! ;-) Hmmmmm. There are more of us in Wisconsin than anywhere else (I think) -- we win! Y'all move up here! (Like that's gonna fly . . . .)

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Ya. What they said.

Oh, and if that were ever to happen, I'd just leave the horses with you and probably be sneaking off to see what kind of tomato seeds Sharon and David have got ("What? The strawberry shortcake? Well, geez, there's another three of 'em in the back of my car, just go help yourself-- don't let the frogs loose."). I'm sure they'd be a BAD influence on my tomato obsession!!

I still read CS forum and participate in some of it...but it sure is tiresome having to always respond to aggitating posts because it seems that no one else is gonna stand up and BE that dissenting voice when you see people with non-Rightwing-PC views being shouted down. I don't let people light animals on fire for the fun of it, or shove little kids off the dock into the water, or beat on dogs either. It gets so that I can't stand what's being done to the underdog and finally I've gotta say something, whether it gets me called names (my favourites are 'eco-freak', 'liberal', 'tree-hugger' and 'bunny- hugger' -- like there was a single thing wrong with any one of them, but they are being *used* with the intention of derision and hurt, whether it accomplishes that goal or not.) It comes off very hostile.

Out of fairness, I went and looked a little bit at the Freedom forum and quickly decided I wouldn't be there again. I also noticed that in the mission statement that it had been by invitation only, so I left. I think a lot of 'newcomers' are kind of turned off on the forums by people constantly stating that it's not the same as 'the old days' with names they don't recognize. I didn't get a computer until less than a year ago, so I didn't post before, but that doesn't mean that I haven't been gardening since I was about 11, or cooking since I was not yet 3, and that I don't get lost in the woods. My blood pressure lately was going through the roof reading the intentions of some of the people on CS, and I'm rather glad that those have been kiboshed. Now that I'm over *here* the blood pressure is starting to fall back down again.

I'm sleeping a whole lot better now that I've got this pajama party to go to. It's nice to see that there are people who aren't looking for a Boogie man constantly -- it causes sleep deprivation, which in turn fuels paranoia. I like this group of people. It makes me feel like worldwide Peace could break out at any minute if our tolerance and respect spread. (man, that is the most upbeat thing I've had to say in a LONG time!)

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Seems to me the trouble starts when people start taking themselves seriously. When we start to realize all we have are opinions, and the 'truth' is oh so fleeting, there is nothing to defend. Opinions are based on experience and since we all have different experiences it would follow ,a diversity of opinions. Insecurity seems to be a characteristic of the my way or nothing mentality. So I don't think a problem lies in finding refuge in a particular forum. The danger lies in thinking one forum is right and another wrong. As Mickey Rourke mentioned in "Barfly" referring to cops,' I don't hate em , but I feel a lot better when they're not around. :) peace jz

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Very well then folks. I just thought I'd extend the hand of friendship. Since it has been rejected, goodbye. Oh, and the Freedom forum isn't by invitation only. It was just that invitations were sent to people she thought most likely to be interested in participating. If you will read ALL the posts, you will find there are several mentions that the people there miss interesting discussions. We are not seeking rubber stamp acceptance. We are just seeking to not be deleted, as well as no one else to be deleted either. Goodbye again. I will leave you in peace.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Green, peace to you as well. And thank you for the olive branch. I think you are absolutely wonderful for extending it. Best wishes and we shall meet again! I hope all the Freedom folks are doing well. For now, having multiple forums is probably what we need. But as I have said over and over again, we have more in common than we have "in different," and those of us in for a penny as well as a pound will likely reconcile. I think taking some time out is healthy.

Please take care. Good luck at Freedom.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

Green: Ditto what Why-can't-we-all-get-along-Sheepish said. The fact is we are all different and we're all the same, brought together initially by the homesteading lifestyle choices we've made.

Diane: Once again I apologize for painting with a broad brush the Christian "community", tho I suspect you know who I refer to.

Dan: I think you're right on the mark with your comment about a very vocal minority being mistakenly seen as representative of the whole they presume to represent. Its the squeky wheel that gets the grease.

Julie: "It makes me feel like worldwide Peace could break out at any minute if our tolerance and respect spread." Amen to that!

Kirk: You too are right on the mark with your "fear" comments. Green said its not fearful but concerned. I personally believe "care" is rooted in fear but thats another subject.

Sheepish, I hope you aren't offended by the why-can't-we-all-get- along appelation. I see it as a good thing and remember first being touched by Rodney King saying it and my heart went out to him, then disappointed by the derision he met with from the political commentators etc on the tube, which brings me to the observation that perhaps thats a part of the answer to my initial questions.

Have we become so calloused as a nation as to not "hear" a heartfelt plea for peace and brotherhood among people of good will, regardless of political persuasion? And wouldn't this callousness eventually lead to the divisiveness?

I guess this is why we're called the touchy feely crowd by the other forum.

-- Anonymous, May 06, 2001

oh john, absolutely no apologies were necessary. I knew exactly who you were talking about and didn't take it personally at all. My point was about taking the forums mentioned as an indication of what our country was up to. I don't believe at the grass roots we are nearly as divided as it appears on the surface was much more the point I was trying to make. I am very happy to be a "touchy,feely" and would hope that I never change. And Green, I am sorry that you felt that you were rejected, I think we should be able to reject a message without rejecting the messenger, which I believe is what happened here. It is when we choose to take every disagreement over issues as a personal rejection that we achieve the devisiveness that we have all experienced recently. I have been just as guilty as anyone. Peace, joy and love to all.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I want so much to start a homestead community in Kentucky. I have been searching the web endlessly, reading, learning, you know. Why can't we do the 'seems to be' impossible? Everyone says you can't do that, it would never work. Why wouldn't it if we just cared about each other and forgot about all the lables. I would start one right here on my 12 acres if someone wanted to or needed a place to live and homestead.

I think this is the most thoughtful, thinking wise thread I have read so far in any forum. This is the real heart of the matter. Bring us together with the things we love in common, not keep us apart with the things that make us a tad different from each other. I also don't fit in the other Christian forums, just don't fit into the mold. I think that it is awful to look down on anybody. Keep talking, that's the way to understand and soften ones heart towards others. Miss you all I havn't talked to in a while. Still in my bubble.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Gosh, I'm always the last to find out! I didn't know this forum was referred to as the "touchy feelies". As someone else mentioned , I don't post everyday but I do drop in everyday. So I guess I'm a "touchy feely" too. I'll claim it though, there sure are alot worse things to be called!

As far as the question, I sure wish there was more community and connectedness in my locality. I think it's one of the reasons I visit here and used to visit CS. I still go there occasionally but my heart's not in it. Family connectedness has suffered too in our age of modern convenience where family members often don't live in the same community and the telephone attempts to bridge the gap. Even though I understand the implications of having large families and it's effect on the earth, it's my sanity and my community. If I didn't have my children, I'd be a very lonely person. I know there are many in the forum that believe having a family isn't prudent and I respect that. I feel that our earth problems aren't because of having families. I believe it's because of our disconnectedness to the land and what it provides and taking it for granted that has put us in this situation. All the modern conveniences have let us off the hook and so independent that we just don't need each other anymore. What a shame. Life just isn't natural anymore! Maybe if we all needed each other more, maybe people would be a bit more caring and respectful.

As far as who's right? Does it really matter? I agree that it is fear that causes so much division. If a person is truly comfortable in their stand, why would it matter if someone disagreed with them. It might make pause for thought and reflection, but nothing to be up in arms about. I believe visiting CS has helped me come to that comfortable place because I got to see such varied opinions that it caused me to examine mine to the point that I truly know who and what I am.

Well everyone, keep posting and I'll keep reading. I'm glad to be part of all you "touchy feelies" out there :) !

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I have often found that a good way to judge a person's character is to observe how they judge others. The nature of judgement is so subjective that a lot is revealed. Equally, I think that what people fear may often reflect the kind of acts that they themselves would perform, were the position reversed. I find it helps to understand where someone is coming from to analyze their viewpoint in this context. It really helps to try to see the other side of the argument before responding to anything.

I have to admit, however, that the extreme Christian viewpoint leaves me at a complete loss. I just cannot see how the fundamentalists can be so judgemental and unaccepting. I can only think that their absolute faith and intolerance really reflects tremendous inner uncertainty and fear. Of course we would all like to find a true path to inner peace, and I can see that a path through the teachings of Jesus is a good one. It may be all you need, but it is certainly not the only one!

Ouch, in anticipation.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Cindy-so glad to see you.I've missed you!I hoped you would notice my little reference over on CS and find your way.

Denise-truth be told if I had chosen to have kids,or rather had chosen to marry a man who wanted more kids,,there probably would have been a baker's dozen. I love a houseful of kids and think it's better for kids to grow up with alot of siblings.With my sappy big heart,I'd a been dragging kids home left and right!However most would not have been biological. Good thing I married Nick! Whew!I would have really been busy.

A couple in the area raise over 50 foster and adopted kids in addition to a few of their own. Isn't that something else? I'm sure there is a very special place in heaven reserved for them.

Yep on the disconnectedness from the land problem and yep on people using discussion to either expand their horizons or solidify more firmly their own position. If only that had happened over there,we wouldn't all be over here.Too bad.

Here's something Nick said recently. You know him,the man who loves to argue,any time,place,day. He said he doesn't believe all that belonged on CS bc it caused so much division and the forum is ultimately associated with the magazine and reflects on it.Those comming in from the magazine got caught in the crossfire.He wouldn't have participated if he knew what it was going to cause.

He thinks the way the forum is now,plus the two offset forums not affiliated with the mag,is for the best in the long run.He has a forum he goes to, where all they do is argue,and he has a ball there.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

OK, I just gave in to my curiosity and went over to the Freedom-Self Reliance board. Ouch! Sent me scurrying back to my little haven.

I have a confession to make. I am as touchy-feely, lovey-dovey, mooshy-squooshy as a marshmallow peep fresh from the box! I cry during TV commercials, take in stray animals, grow food for the hungry, and foolishly believe that small groups of committed individuals do have the power to change the world! And I'm damn proud of it! There, I feel better now!

Speaking only for myself, I agree with whoever it was that said that judgemental attitudes arise from fear. Thinking that "I'm right and all the rest of you are wrong" is a cheap and easy way to build self- esteem. "We" don't have to listen to "them" because they are (pick your favorite label) (a) evil, (b) left-wing, (c) right-wing, (d) tree-huggers, (e) environmental rapists (f) stupid. Too many labels, too many little boxes that we put people in because it's easier to label than to try to understand someone. I'm ashamed to say that I'm guilty of it too.

Rather than thinking "I'm right so you have to be wrong", we need to think "I'm kinda right and you're kinda right and she's kinda right and he's kinda right." Pretty touchy-feely stuff. :-)

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I don't understand it either, David, I never have. It kinda blows meek and humble right out the door. I am better than no one else. I have learned kindness, gentleness, love, charity, patience and thankfullness. That does not make me a weenie, nor should I be all puffed up either. I should be thankful for the heart that I have, I am. There are simply just mean people, Christian and otherwise.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

John, one thing that brings together a diverse assemblage of people is - a common enemy. An 'Evil Empire', or a manmade or natural disaster. Most of the nation supported Bush's war against Iraq, flags were flying and pro-American bumper stickers were everywhere. Oklahoma city residents all rallied round the victims (and so did the rest of us) after the Federal building bombing. Any widespread natural disaster - ice storm, hurricane, flood, etc. - will bring offers of help, goods, and money. Everybody pulls together against a common threat.

So here's my odd view on our bickering and disagreements: It is GOOD (!!!) because it is a measure of how few truly dangerous life- threatening situations we really face.

If we had a real man-eating tiger to fight we would not give a damn about out fellow warrier's religion or politics, and would not even notice what she wore.

Life is easy now. The tigers have been vanquished. We do not fear for our lives. We are free to worry about little things. And that's just what we do! Sandy's $.02.

Btw, I have always considered 'right wing' and 'PC' to be polar opposites. Sandy

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Thanks for the invite Joy, but I'm scared of glaciers - I figure Wisconsin is about due for another big 'un!! The older I get, the less I like lots of snow - reckon it has to do with having to drive in it. You know, in Kentucky, they put mistletoe over their doorways to ward off glaciers. Works, too!! Hasn't been a glacier there yet!!

Sharon: if I could ever pry my roots out of this Illinois clay, I'd head for Kentucky in a heartbeat! (Especially if you promise me Nick runnin' nekkid with a cleaver!) Used to have a sweety down there near Louisville; and lots of old kin from there to Knox Co., Tennesee. I like the climate, I like the pace of life and I don't mind the snakes too much! And I like living "out back of beyond" as Granny used to say. Just got too much family around here to pick up and leave right yet. Sis's sweety will be stationed at Ft. Knox sometime in July (we think) for a month - we're hoping to run down and see him. You all anywhere near there?

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Welcome to BTS, Cindy. Hope you'll find us a congenial bunch. We're still (most of us) participating on CS too.

Well, I felt badly about the sharpness of my comments to Ava (Green), so I emailed her an apology. Not for not wanting to join FF, but for being cranky about it.

I agree with all of you who mentioned it, there's nothing wrong with being "touchy-feely". What I object to is the use of it as a denigrating epithet, as if there IS something wrong with it. I object to the jeering and the denigrating. Hmmm, what's the opposite of T-F? Untouchable, unhuggable, unfeeling?

David wrote: "I have to admit, however, that the extreme Christian viewpoint leaves me at a complete loss. I just cannot see how the fundamentalists can be so judgemental and unaccepting. I can only think that their absolute faith and intolerance really reflects tremendous inner uncertainty and fear."

Thank you David. You expressed something that I have long thought, but was having trouble putting into coherent (and concise) text.

Well, I am glad to have a bunch of feeling people to hang out with!

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Polly, I forgot to say in my last post, I sure like the sound of your "neighborhood". Wouldn't it be wonderful!!!

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Nice Post Sandy!! I think your right on.........Kirk

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

John, as far as I'm concerned, you're welcome on the freedom forum. It's pretty dull when everyone agrees on an issue- nothing to talk about except how much we agree with one another! I haven't come here excpet to lurk because I wasn't on the pagan homesteader thread and wasn't invited. But I've been wanting to post on the very same topic.

I don't have a problem if someone doesn't agree with me. And if they're civil about it, I don't mind if they shoot my arguments full of holes! It's good to look at things from a different point of view from time to time. The Countryside forum, the way it used to be, enriched my life and changed my way of thinking because of the diversity of thought. Around the beginning of the year, I went to a 'solstice party' at a friends house. Now first of all, this isn't the kind of party I've ever gone to before, and not something I'd usually think of attending. Too different. But I really like this friend, and I wasn't sure what it'd be like. Well, when we got there, all the other people were Democrats, bemoaning the fact that Bush had stolen the election! Talking about how crummy it was that we'd have Bush again! Most of them were homesteader types, but they were an entirely different crowd than we usually hang with. The conversation and viewpoints expressed were unique to my way of thought. And you know what? Because of the Countryside forum, where I'd encountered characters such as Jump Off Joe, Vicki, Shannon, John, Sheepish, and so many others, I was able to actually converse with those folks and see them as people with legitamate viewpoints even if I disagreed. Now we're all fractured up into our own little groups and we've lost something really great, so that we can preserve our comfort zones. Sometimes a comfort zone is so comfortable because nothing new or interesting is going on in there. There's not much opportunity for growth under those circumstances.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Thanks Rebeka for the "invite" tho I'm not sure I'll take you up on it at this time.

Sandy: I agree with Kirk---you nailed another big aspect of the problem. Folks like Rush Limbaugh demonize everyone but the extreme right and that both galvanizes and polarizes the "right". I recall some of the 60s and 70s and the same thing was going on from the left. In fact that might lead to another thread entitled "The democratic fallacy", when the majority rules it becomes an excuse for tyranny by the masses.

Then there's the politically conservative, religious right, who, with the authority of the bible, take the whole process up a notch, claiming the authority of God, without ever looking at whats really happening. That is, in simple terms, they've decided their interpretation of the bible is just as infallible as they believe the bible is.

I partly agree with the labeling comments but also recognize the "usefulness" of being able to identify a group as this or that.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Does this happen to anyone else? I read this before, did not see a posting from Sandy, even though it is (now?) sandwiched between two that I did see and read. Am I scrolling through too fast? Or is there something screwy with this whole forum (I noticed the phenomenon on CS too)? Probably me . . . [mutter, mutter]

Rebekah, you make some good points. Of course, you're one of the people (as far as my memory is concerned) that didn't degenerate into nastiness, or name calling and insults. That's where the problems came in, IMO. I agree, it was interesting to discuss things, and I remember the early days, when the discussions were at least civil, if not friendly. But that hasn't been true for months, and there doesn't seem to be any way to go back.

I used to love going to CS, I enjoyed the discussions as much as the threads on various skills, animals, gardening, etc. Then in became aggravating and then painful, as many here have posted. Those who remained civil could scarcely discuss anything without someone making insults or calling names. There were repeated calls for a return to civility, which were ignored. How do you go back, when half the participants won't cooperate? And I'm not talking about "sides" of any issue, there were/are civil people and nasty, rude people on every side of every issue. I cringed many a time at some "blast" from someone (usually anonymous or a single post) who should have been my "ally". What can be done, except to opt out and spare yourself the rancor, even if it is at the expense of learning other viewpoints? Well, there is the option of moderators and censorship -- and quite a few people who object to that option. So what is left?

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Rebekah, so nice to see you hear!!! Hope you keep coming back. Discussion is good, as you said, and I enjoy it also. You helped me a lot with you suggestions (private and public) and I have been missing that.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Rebekah, so nice to see you here!!! Hope you keep coming back. Discussion is good, as you said, and I enjoy it also. You helped me a lot with you suggestions (private and public) and I have been missing that.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Rats, sorry for the double post, thought I could correct a typo and it didn't work.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Why can't there be a forum where it makes no difference whether you are conservative, liberal,Christian, Pagan, devil-worshipper or whatever. Just a forum to answer homesteading questions without judgment of the person who is asking the question?! As much as I've explored on the net, this forum is pretty darned close to the one I've just described! But my "net" experience is rather limited.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Joy that can't be said enough! ITS THE NAME CALLING!!!! And because of that people were afraid to post! How can that be tolerated when folks don't feel safe? I trust people here. So I use this kind board as home and I post on CS because I want to support and encourage new homesteaders.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

A lot of the problem from my perspective if when people express their political/religious/ethical opinions with an air of moral superiority. I agree that discussion/disagreements between reasonable and respectful individuals is stimulating, enlightening, and fun. But too often we set up our opinions as a dare to be challenged, and in essence put down dissenters before they have a chance to respond.

For instance,I have a close friend who doesnt believe in abortion. In other words, she could never herself have one, and that is the right choice for her. However, she is open hearted enough to realize that others make different choices for their personal lives, and she never judges them to be wrong for that difference, nor would she ever join a movement to try to take away that right.

I hear this all the time in the vegetarian movement. The anti-meat faction states their opinions as facts, and even though their ignorance of the whole issue is frequently appalling, their stance is often more about their feelings of disgust towards those who eat meat, than about the positives of their choice for their own life.

Some on the 'left' take the moral high ground when discussing population growth, as though those who have chosen to have children are morally or intellectually deficient.

Those of us who have chosen to not have guns in our lives are somehow endangering the country's freedom.

If a gay couple chooses to get married, this somehow means straight marriages are no longer valid.

If parents decide to put their kids in public school rather than homeschool, they are harming the kids and pandering to the government.

So I guess I see it as about respecting people's choices, and realizing we are all SUPPOSED to make different ones, and mine are ONLY right for ME, because I cannot possibly know how it is to be anyone but me. It's all about respect......

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Sandy: Forgot to comment on this earlier. You say " Btw, I have always considered 'right wing' and 'PC' to be polar opposites" Typically I think you're correct but in practice it holds as true for the right as it does for the left. For example there's lotsa things you could say at CS that you'd get absolutely blasted for if it didn't fall into line with the "conservative-right" or the "religious right" take on things. So much so in fact that some here on this board got "Virused" and hacked. As far as I'm concerned thats as "politically correct" as "vertically challenged" for a short person or "circumferentially challenged" for an overweight person.

Once again Earthmamma, I bow before your wisdom! The judgement has alot to do with the problem and your friend has the right attitude from what I can tell.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Polly-I live near the West Virginia border.I'll try to get you a picture of Nick and that cleaver,but he 'streaks' by so fast,it might be pretty blurry.

BTW it's supposed to scare people,not excite them.Polly,Polly,Polly what am I to do here?

Kirk saying it doesn't feel safe over on CS really hit the nail on the head,for me.I learned a long time ago to avoid poisonous situations and people.That was why I bailed out over there quite a while back and will not post,with the recent exception,until I see major,major changes in the atmosphere over there. No significant changes,even now,just some going underground for a while.I'll wait and see.

I am admittedly disturbed by the lack of support for actions taken.While I may not agree wholeheartly with every single "rule" I realize that we brought it to that point ourselves.What else should Dave have done,to try to put a stop to the madnes.Any suggestions?

And Ken,as the messenger,gets shot. Anyboby remember how helpful he has always been? The work he put in on the archives? Sending out his book,free,to hundreds? I'd say in the balance he's been pretty decent.So he gets kicked in the teeth.Real nice people over there,sure.I'll stay here,thank you very much.

I know some disagree with the rules and that's OK. But it isn't OK to demonize someone bc something became necessary.People were calling and emailing Dave abt. what was going on over there.He was put in the position of having to do something.I feel sorry for the guy.

Well,anyway,that behavior is just more of the reason I stay away from there.I'm glad I went there originally, bc it enabled me to know you folks,so it served a purpose,but the negative outweighed the positive,for me,now.'course,I got hacked. THAT tends to color things considerably.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Earthmama, you are so right! That's the power of free thinking. People who can only see one side of an issue need to educate themselves, not stand up and shout. I am proud to be pro-life AND pro-choice. Proud to be Christian, Pagan and more at the same time. Proud to be capitalist AND communist. Proud to be pro-gun and anti- NRA. Nothing is black and white.

Back to the original question, of how the nation can stand with so much division, my feeling is that the new "God" of choice is "The Ecomomy". The majority is united in a sense because they are either happy ecomomically, or trapped in the system. From the little mainstream news I hear, it seems that the only function of the government is to keep "The Economy" healthy. Any threat to "The Economy" is something that gets dealt with decisively, at a time when everything else is bogged down in leglislative quagmire. Hate to think what will happen if a real downturn occurs!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Scared?! I'm supposed to be scared? Huh. Well, dang - you seem to foget that I deal with paranoid schizophrenics, multiple personality disorders and doctors on a daily basis!!

I didn't even flinch when one little old man told me he'd snap my neck if he could get ahold of me. He accused me of not believing him until I told him "Sure, I believe you - you want to hear what I would do if I thought I could get away with it?" - he wouldn't get near me after that. However, I DID go out and move my car so it couldn't be seen from the windows of the wacky ward when a patient suggested to me that he wanted to tie me up in his garage and slowly dismember me with a chainsaw and feed me to his dogs.

So if you wanna scare me, your gonna have to do better than runnin' around nekkid with a meat cleaver - that just gets me shading my eyes for a good look as he runs on by!! Tee-hee!!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Polly....Ohhhhh- Doctors!!!! Now THAT is scary.And I'd say you and Nick sure could swap some mighty hairy tales.

Do you drive a different way home every night and watch out the rear view mirror and take all sorts of turns to see if anyone is folowing you? I did when I worked at the shelter.We were told to do so.

And one late night someone did follow me home,way out in the country,thru 4 turnoffs,no less,and finally turned the other way at the last one abt 1/4 mile from the house.Whew! Scared the bejeezes outta me,for a while. Guess he knew the back way home,too,huh!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Nah, Sharon - I come home in daylight. Plus, they'd have to catch me first - it's a source of unending wonder that it takes me 50 minues to get TO work, but only 35 to get HOME!! Plus I always take the back roads when I can, and also they'd have to follow me to Wal-Mart and Rural King and the Feed and Seed and the used bookstore and the greenhouse and Catholic Charities and the Sallies and the laundromat and the bakery thrift store - as I try to do all those things on the days that I'm in town anyway!

Even if I went straight home, they'd have to know when to pull to the side of the road to avoid getting wiped out by the teen-age who's late for school and Hubby, who's motto is "Yes, as a matter of fact - I DO own the whole damn road"! If they did make it to the driveway, they'd have to get past the big dog who wants to play and the little dog who trys to herd you and the 40 billion cats to trip over and the maurading band of chickens and the 47 seed flats on the front porch. And if they DID make it that far - the rifle is right inside the door!!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001