The place to find true diversity : LUSENET : A.M.E. Today Discussion : One Thread

If you want to find a picture of diversity look no further than National Geographic magazine. I have loved this magazine for years as it introduces readers to "the world and all that is in it". In addition to articles on different aspects of nature there will be in depth writings on cultures, places, and peoples from all over. I walk away marveling at the diversity of God's creation every time. I also am reminded that the world does not revolve around me. My surroundings are a small piece of a mosaic that makes up not just our world but our universe. I also receive a new burden for the lost as I read about the many people who still do not know the true God. Indonesia, the Middle East, even the so called Christian nations of Europe. Our task is not nearly finished.

In Christ, Nathan Paujo

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2001



For the sake of discussion...why must the world's people embrace one version of G-d as truth? All religious practices are man made as a way of worshipping the Supreme Creator of the Cosmos. Can’t Divine Spirit be multi-lingual? If I was born in China, chances are I would follow the Tao. Does it mean that I am lost? Not necessary so. The cultures of people who follow esoteric spiritual paths appear more moral than the overwhelming Christianity community. I find it amazing that many of the worlds religions (mostly Moslem and Christianity) force their beliefs on others without regard for the environment, culture or behaviors of the indigenous people. Religions should not colonize other countries, because of the misconception of being "lost." I think that we should learn the most important lesson of Christ---LOVE. Learning how to peaceful co- exist.

On another note...Is the US model of Christainity correct? I question it because appears very materialistic and ego driven.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I agree that American Christianity is probably not patterned after the Bible in every respect. Some churches are better than others. It is also true that Christian forms of worship around the world can take many forms and be influenced by local culture but to be Christian it must hold up the Father Son and Holy Spirit as God. One of the pictures in last months Geographic showed a Bhuddist monk praying with prayer wheels. Whether he knows it or not he is worshipping demons. Many missionaries tell of the oppressive presence of Satan in these societies. I have heard many stories.

I was reminded of this as I saw a show on feudal Japan recently. They had a terrible stratified society that held life in low esteem. It seemed ritual suicide was the answer to every little problem. This can be nothing more than demonic deception.

People need Jesus and only Jesus because He is our creator. Anything else from the Tao to atheism is putting a square peg in a round hole. Fellowship with Jesus is what we are born for.

I do not know for sure if those who have never heard of Jesus will go to hell. God will judge justly. But all religions are not created equal. I will not co exist peacefully with demons. We need to get the Gospel to every nation.

In Christ, Nathan Paujo

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

People need Jesus and only Jesus because He is our creator...

Where is in the bible does it say that Jesus is our Creator? How did you come to this understanding? I am that I am. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. This does not mean I don't believe in Jesus the Christ and his importance; however, I am very careful to keep Jesus in proper perspective. Jesus is not god but a creation of G- d. The son of G-d, part of the 3 in 1. Also, this concept refers to Jesus in his anionted state not as a mortal. The power of trinity concept (in my opinion) is most powerful when we spiritually combine all the elements, the essence is G-d.

Spiritual teachers...please explain the origins of the trinity. Did Jesus describe this concept in his teachings? Does Jesus what us to place him on the same level as G-d?

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

Where is in the bible does it say that Jesus is our Creator?

How did you come to this understanding?
A complete reading of the Bible; a willingness to receive it as truth; a period of challenge and inspection driven by the pride of intellect, the pull of the world, and the allure of other belief systems, and a reconciliation to the truths that I had learned as a youth. And Prayer.

I am that I am.
This is the name that the Father gives to Moshe for Himself upon meeting Moshe at the burning bush. Further study shows in how many aspects and ways "He is": healer, king, provider, righteousness, warrior, avenger. One aspect is savior. When the tetragrammaton (yud heth vov heth) is combined in name fashion with the notion of salvation, we get Y'shua, the Hebrew form of the name Jesus.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
Exactly. And that is why the church of today rejects that proposition of Arianus that Jesus was some sort of lesser god. To introduce separation in the Godhead is to create a pantheon. Christianity is most definitely a monotheistic religion. So the notion that Jesus is a "lesser" god than the father, but is still a god (separate) is a heterodoxy.

Jesus is not god but a creation of G- d.
Genesis, the hall of creation, does not call out creation of Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, but goes straightway to the tangible things (the heavens and the earth).

The son of G-d, part of the 3 in 1. Also, this concept refers to Jesus in his anointed state not as a mortal.
This is where the doctrines of other belief systems induce confusion. The term "Christos" is the Greek for "Mashiach", the Anointed. Other belief systems also have the notion of an anointed. But it has been the teachings of the church that Jesus was and is eternal - not created, fully God and fully man, not divided in substance. Please refer to the Articles of Religion (should be accessible under "ABCs of AME").

Further, the purpose of Jesus's incarnation was to carry forth the plan of redemption. He revealed Himself as the truth (John 14:6), as contrasted to some belief systems where avatars manifest to show some dimension of the Absolute Truth. Further, by offering himself as a sacrifice for our unrighteousness, he created a path for our reconciliation to the Father.

So for further discussion, there must be clear understanding of what is meant by "divine", "eternal", "anointed", "truth".

The power of trinity concept (in my opinion) is most powerful when we spiritually combine all the elements, the essence is G-d.

Did Jesus describe this concept in his teachings?
Yes. John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I Am". In so doing he equated himself to the Father. This so outraged the preachers to whom he was speaking that in the next verse they immediately sought to stone him. Why? They perceived blasphemy, because he equated himself to G-d.

Does Jesus what us to place him on the same level as G-d?
They are essentially inseparable (now). See the creeds of the church (Nicaea, for example).

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

There are several instances in the Bible where Jesus refers to his relationship in comparison to God. In John 14th chapter, Phillip asked Jesus to show them the Father. His answer if you have seen me you have seen the father. Further Jesus says Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me... Whatsoever you ask in my name I will do it that the Father might be glorified in the son. Jesus goes on in this same chapter introducing the Holy Spirit. Vs 16. I will pray the Father and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Further on Jesus says "At that day you shall know that I am in my Father and ye in me and I in you. In John 15 Jesus says I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman. One of my favorites verses in found in John 17th chapter where Jesus in praying Vs 5 "And now Father glority thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." All through his prayer Jesus speaks of the "oneness" of He and His Father. His prayer was that we could be one as they are. This was made possible by the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

My absolute favorite verses (with the Bible it's so hard) Philippians 2:6-9. Vese 6 says "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God;, 7)But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men; 8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name.

I believe these verses adequately describes the very unique equality Jesus has with God his Father. And as we receive the Holy Spirit we also share in their oneness.

Sorry this is long, but I thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.

In Christ, Carmen

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

I John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

It is my understanding that man was made in G-d’s imagine. (Not the physical manifestation, but spiritual). Therefore, we are a microcosm of the macrocosm, which makes all creation his children. If we connect and become conscious to THAT which is within in us and without us, then we will truly become powerful. Jesus was/is very special, connecting on a very high spiritual level. I have not seen many earthly manifestations connect at the level as Jesus the Christ.

Let’s discuss this verse…

“I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” This tells me that Jesus is very powerful; however, not as powerful as G-d.

Thanks Carmen (Jerryl) for my beautiful spiritual lesson.


-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

If we connect is very vital. We can then become one. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life, No man cometh unto the Father, but by me. According to that verse it is so necessary for this Gospel to be preached to all the world. This doesn't mean,in my mind, all those in parts of the world that have no conscienceness of Jesus, are lost. In fact I don't know. God gave the power of judgement to the Son, and I thank God it is in the power of a righteous person. I do believe those who truly seek God will open themselves for God. I think of Cornelius, who was a Gentile and praying and giving of alms to God. God made a way for him to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ by way of Peter. He and his household were saved. The Jews had to know that salvation was for all men.

I believe because the Word of God tells us that no one will have an excuse, that our minds are too finite to understand how all men will receive salvation. For me to even speculate that there are others outside my religious backgrown that will not be granted an entrance into heaven would go against the love and knowlege I've gained through relationship with Jesus. Jesus sought and found me and he can do the same for others. His ways or higher than mine, and knowlege to great. So however he comes to a person is alright by me.

The verse you used is very beautiful. "I am going away and I am coming back for you. If you loved me you would be glad I am going to the Father, for the father is greater than I". To me this verse continues to speak of the harmony between Jesus and the Father. As powerful as Jesus was as he walked on this earth, he was limited, in that he could only reach those with whom he made contact with. But he promised greater works that those he did, would come to us because he was going to his Father. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we can reach a limitless amount of people. We who are saved are the intercessors for the lost. Through the power of prayer we can send the Spirit of God to the hearts of those that are lost, bringing conviction, and producing repentance, end result is salvation.

Jesus always placed the Father above himself. And it will be that way until all things will be put under the Father's feet. Read I Cor. 15:20-28. In the end Jesus will be subject unto his Father. There will be no need for a Savior (Jesus).

Jesus came to show and provide the way to his Father. He was truly man and truly devine. His devinity couldn't be denied. He is who he is. That's why he could speak with so much authority and say before Abraham was I was.

Jesus, being God in the flesh, couldn't even tell his desciples, when asked, the time of his returning. His reply was only the Father knows. It's a mystery how he can call himself equal, yet submit to every will of the Father. I don't understand it all, but by faith I accept it. This plan of salvation was total/complete. No flaws. Thought through and made before the foundation of the world. Before God said "Let us", salvations plan for mankind was already in place. For this I rest on and will praise God eternally.

In Christ,


-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001


-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

Thank you Brenda, Jeryl, and Carmen for such profound discourse on the relationship of Jesus to God. As a child in the baptist church, I remember hearing similar discussions about how God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit could be one. The pastor explained it by using the following illustration. He said that if you have a pile of sand and you separate it into three different piles of sand, it is still the very same sand. One might also say that if you have a pitcher of water and pour it into three different glasses, it is still the same water. Likewise, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit even though in different forms are one and the same.


-- Anonymous, May 11, 2001

This is truly a G-d centered discussion...There were differences in the way we talked (relationship) about Divine Spirit. But because we were on ONE accord, we saw the power, beauty and grace of the Holy Spirit, the vital life Force of the cosmos. If people could discuss G-d with love, then we would not have the problems that many of the world's people face. There would be no need to bash other's perspective, our focus would be on connecting to That which sustains all Life.

In Love and Light, Brenda

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2001

Brenda, I couln't agree with you more.

By discussing things in love, finding a common focus, we might be surprised how close our beliefs are to each other. That is at least a start to harmony.

Discord will most likely arise, but an answer or an agreement might be reach more readily and quickly. I think a problem with religious beliefs, especially among Christians, is there are those that would like to think they hold a monopoly on salvation. So they attack instead of discuss.

In Christ, Carmen

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2001

The US has always had a rather strange veiw on what it is to follow a higher power, especially in the newer incarnations of the church. myself having come from a middle eastern background and also haveing roman catholic and buddhist input into my upbringing, i have a particular veiw point on this, question if it can be called so, the thought of there ever being a "true God" as u put it is rather off putting when reading the remark and the comment later on about a buddhist monk praying to demons was rather shocking. it is not anyones place to criticize other faiths, and especially when there is no proof that can not be explained scientificly to back up creation etc you wouldnt like it if the Middle Eastern countries, along with Indonesia and all countries conected to the indigeionous faiths began to verbally attack you're faith for that kind of bigotry.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001

Moderation questions? read the FAQ