I have just taken posession of a 2nd M6 0.58ttl (the first having to be returned due to irregular - not quite actuall overlapping - frame spacing) and this unit two seems to have a fault. The problem this time is that the shutter release button intermittenly jams, causing a missed shot or two until you wiggle the film advance lever. I wonder if this kind of "third time lucky" approach is a. typical or b. entirely atypical and whether I should infer from this experience a tendency toward unreliability in any third unit that I get hold of. Could it be that the 0.58 being a new model is more prone to hiccups? (surely the winding mechanism is the same as for all other models...). My retailer has said "Oh, you must just the most unlucky person in the world" in a rather insinuating manner... The point is that the other M6 I bought (a 0.85 for my 90 f2 apo) which I am actually less sure about in terms of ease of use has operated flawlessly! In any case I would welcome other people's experiences. The fact that Leica UK have still not sent me a passport 9 weeks after my having sent it in doesn't really help (the lady at Leica said she had been on holiday and there was something of a backlog - that was four weeks ago: nothing since until a week ago when I received a passport for a couple of items I don't actually own...) My point is that I've seen the Magnum group pictures with nearly every member with an M6 so I know these cameras are considered reliable - but the amateurishness of Leica's attitude is starting to bug me - how many backups does a person need in the field?? If it wasn't for the beautiful quality of the lenses I would go back to Nikon: Even despite the lenses I suppose I might have to go back anyway if things don't pick up...

Disgruntled to put it mildly,

Steve

-- Steve Jones (Stephen_Jones_et_al@hotmail.com), May 04, 2001

Answers

I had a brand-new F5 with a bad focusing screen, and an F100 with a faulty motor-drive switch. My F4s meter display went dead, and I had an F3 shutter stop working. My 80-200/2.8 came out of the box with a horrible squeal in the AF mechanism. I've heard the same kind of things from Canon owners. Leicas are cameras made by people, checked by people. Sometimes some of them go out the factory door defective. That's what helpful dealers and warranties are for. Why some people insist on holdling Leica to a higher QC standard is beyond me. An M6 costs less than an F5, so it can't be price. My F, F2A and Nikkormat FT3 can only be repaired if some independent happens to have the needed part lying around, or on a parts-body, because Nikon USA won't touch it and doesn't have parts. Leica NJ may be slow and a little disorganized sometimes, but I could send an M2 or M4 or an SL2 or R3 there and get it back (eventually) like new. Considering their small size, Leica does a remarkable job of putting out a quality product and backing it up with exemplary service support. That they don't change models every six months and discontinue service on anything over 7-10 years old says more about their attitude toward product quality and customer service than the occasional slip-up in QC or administrative.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

Steve:

I had a similar experience last year. After only one month of light use, the shutter of my brand new Leica M6 TTL 0.72 jammed. I had to send it to Leica USA in NJ for repair under the Passport Warranty program. They took 8 weeks to fix the problem! Needless to say, I was very disappointed with Leica Quality Control and the whole experience. I thought that a camera body costing $1700 would be better made. Since then I have read many postings about similar quality control complaints with regard to both lenses and camera bodies. Many new lenses with dust or dirt inside them have been sold to customers. My own new 35mm Summicron ASPH lens has a loose aperture ring. I find it hard to believe that no one at the factory checked these cameras or lenses before shipping them out.

Well, I am still a Leica fan because of the astounding quality of the lenses. I used Nikon, Canon, Minolta and Pentax cameras for 20 years before switching to Leica. My current slides and negatives are visibly better because of the Leica lenses I use. And the smooth and quiet shutter of the M6 is joy to use!

I have recently bought two M3 camera bodies (made in 1953 and 1961) and several lenses dating from the sixties and seventies. They are much better built than the current line of Leica cameras and lenses. I can now appreciate why the older Leicas generate fanatical loyalty!

I love the M6 because of its TTL flash and light meter. But the older M3 cameras give you the impression that you are using a high quality photographic instrument! .....................................................................

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

Maybe Leica is just too much a part of the Magnum mystique (ironic since the principle founder used Contaxes) or maybe they get a discount! But you can tell this fashion accessory company at Solms to get lost if they won't give you decent factory support, because you have an alternative: Konica..........................

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

I should make it clear that I have had F100s, F4s, F3HPs, F90x and even an F601 (which I used to forever drop on the floor for some reason...) and have never ever had a fault with any of them or with any of the lenses. Obviously this is just down to chance on my part - and perhaps my experience has been atypical in this respect and is the cause of my present panic - but I certainly do NOT expect higher QC from Leica than from Nikon - my point is that I'm worried (understandably I believe) that I'll need multiple back ups to ensure continuous photography, and I'm slightly concerned about the escalating cost of the thing (2 times 0.58 for wide-angle work; 2 times 0.85 for the 90 f2 and then there's close-up stuff and an 80- 200 zoom...). I think, with the greatest possible respect - that the above reply is unjustly aggressive/defensive - I was looking for reassurance and certainly didn't wish to denigrate Leica - I wouldn't spend all this money on their products if I wasn't entirely convinced about the beautiful quality of images that their lenses can produce. I wondered, for example if this new model had problems associated with it that previous types don't.

-- Steve Jones (Stephen_Jones_et_al@hotmail.com), May 04, 2001.

When I step back and think about my different kinds of equipment, it's interesting how my perspectives differ...

* Hasselblad - long term.

* Leica - long term. Only my screwmounts are left unsupported, but they're 50 years old, for crying out loud.

* Nikon - very handy stuff. But the F and F2 are old favorite paperweights, and the rest may be here next year, or may have been replaced with some other handy Nikon gizmo by then. Come to think of it, this progressive Nikon product instability is what drove me into Leica, along with occasional frustration with Nikon lens performance.

-- Ken Shipman (kennyshipman@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

I'd never go out without a spare body. But I've never needed one. Your life is more complicated because you need the two different viewfinder models. For me, the 0.72 is good enough. (But I still can't get over the wonderful M3 viewfinder with a 50 attached!)

Maybe the factory is under some stress with the new models. In the past, they haven't had to cope with frequent model changes (!). All power to them for that- it's not a criticism. Maybe business is improving and they are finding it difficult to cope. Maybe the new public company arrangements are placing additional stresses (economic rationalism? shareholders before customers?) If this is the case, they will blow it completely and it will be a trgedy for all of us.

-- john stockdale (jjss@bigpond.net.au), May 04, 2001.

I am sorry my first response was misinterpreted as antagonistic, it's the downside to writing vs. speaking directly--no body-language or vocal cues. I agree wholeheartedly that anything bought new, regardless of the thing or the price, should look and work properly out of the box. It is galling to me to feel that *I* am held to a higher standard to earn my money, than the people who make the things I buy with it. But once past the final-assembly QC glitches, the M6 is basically a very reliable platform, reliable and built to last. Look again at the problems you encountered: neither the film spacing nor the sticky shutter button rendered those cameras D.O.A. Other than a sprung shutter or jammed film transport, there isn't much can go wrong with an M6 that will stop you completely from using it to shoot with. It doesn't even have a mirror or auto-diaphragm mechanism which can plague even a fully-mechanical SLR. I think buying brand- new backup bodies for both the 0.58 and 0.85 is as extreme as not having any backup at all. The 0.58 will focus a 90/2 just fine, and the framelines aren't un-usable; buy a used 28mm finder and the 0.85 will do anything the 0.58 can do...remember, we're talking about backup here, i.e. short-term emergency use. And there's always the possibility of an 0.72 body to backup both the 0.58 and 0.85, which opens a lot of less-expensive options.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

Steve, it's too bad you got a couple of bad cameras, and it really is coincidental that you got two in a row. But has been mentioned, that whcih we at times take for granted in any other product, for some reason causes hysterics the few times it happens with Leica. I have had a fixed lens Hexar go in for repair 3 times in a year (a camera that has a very good reliability record), yet was satisfied with the camera's reliability. My Nikons were in numerous times for repairs over the years. My Leicas (which I've owned 4 different models over the last 20 years), have been in for cleaning (two of the older ones, one of which is a 1960 IIIg) and once for a rangefinder adjustment when I dropped the camera (M4) off of a step ladder onto concrete. Statistically Leicas have fewer breakdown then other makes, though probably (IMO) need routine adjustment just as often because of the tighter tolerance. And as for D. Kelly you really make no point at all. If all you need in a system is one viewfinder, and 4 lenses the Hexar is a good camera, but in the middle of nowhere, with a dead battery, you'll wish you had an M.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), May 04, 2001.

I have used leica the last 15 years, and the only problem I had was a lubrication problem with a ´55 M3, in 1999, the camera still had the leica seal when sent to be repair.Now I own two M4P and no problem yet, they sound silky, and work fawlessly, but to be onest I won´t try the lattest model until reading coments from users.The M6 classic seems to be good.

-- R Watson (AL1231234@HOTMAIL.COM), May 04, 2001.

Years ago, I would go out with two Nikon F's, and a bag full of lens. Then in 1982 I purchased a used M3, with a couple of lens. I was no longer a slave to lug a big bag of gear around. I still have a Nikon F3, but don't use it much because as soon as it gets cold, the batteries stop. Never had that with a M3, and haven't had any problems with my M6. Go get the gear fixed, (demand it be fixed)in the knowledge that you are a very lucky guy. Not many people have even one M with a problem, let alone 2 in succession. PN

-- Paul Nelson (clrfarm@comswest.net.au), May 04, 2001.

Steve: It's so bad that you experienced two problems in such a short time. I'm relatively new to the Leica owners group (2ea. M3 and 1 ea. R4) but have never had a problem though the M3s are 40 years old (absolutely no maintenance ever performed. The first one I bought on Internet without even looking at it, such was (is) my confidence on the brand) and though all the ugly stories concerning the R4 model. Steve, I'm not a Leica specialist but I think that a reasonable solution for your back up concerns could be to get a nice M3 which I understand would work fine with your lenses, backing you up with only one body, at least on an emergency basis. Real specialists could clarify the viewfinder issue, I guess. On other (no less important) respect I feel happy of joining a group whose members are able of excusing for not entirely proper opinions. Gentlemen still have a place in this world. Please excuse my English. My mother language is Spanish. Good luck, Steve. Iván

-- Ivan Barrientos (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 04, 2001.

Have not yet made it to the middle of nowhere, will the middle of Lo Manthang do? And did experience a dead battery, had to reach into my pack and get out a fresh one. and I have to admit that, had the sherpas made off with all my spares, or the Hexar fallen into the gorge there was an M3 with collapsible summicron in my parka pocket. My badly made point: That after 40 years of monopoly leica has real competition and is about to get more. Either this will kill it or make it stronger, my money's on the

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

I sympathize w/ your frustration! Certainly, for the price our Leica gear costs us, we can expect a high level of quality control and fortunately that's what I've been getting. I've used the Leica M series for over 16 years and have not had any problems (knock wood) yet. So, I'd recommend that you not 'jump ship' and try to have the gear repaired to your satisfaction. Regardless of the poor luck you've experienced, the Leica M remains a remarkable photographic instrument. So, why not try to resolve your dissatisfation and then use your gear to make some fine photographs...

By the way, I've had numerous problems in the past with more 'modern' camera designs. I had a Contax SLR fail in the middle of a shoot and a brand new Nikon 8008 sent out for service twice within the first year. Leica's quality control is certainly not perfect, but then again anything made by man is subject to mechanical failure.

-- KL Prager (www.pragerproperties@att.net), May 04, 2001.

Steve: I have a pair of M3's that I have had for 28 years. I fell on one of them and it took a pair of pliers to get the film out, without the loss of a single frame. I had to send the body in to get the rangefinder fixed, but I could have continued to shoot with as it is. My M6 (non TTL) was bad out of the box. The rangefinder was off enough that f:8 at twenty feet wasn't in focus. I e-mailed Leica NJ about the problem and sent it in. The camera was back in my hands 6 days after it left my hands. They fixed it properly and promptly as I expected. When it is new out of the box, DEMAND a prompt repair. Another one I haven't used is the clout of a credit card. The credit card companies are touting their advantages of warranties. Best of luck and don't give up. Mark J.

-- Mark A. Johnson (logic@gci.net), May 04, 2001.

"If all you need in a system is one viewfinder, and 4 lenses the Hexar is a good camera, but in the middle of nowhere, with a dead battery, you'll wish you had an M. "

Presumably, in the middle of nowhere you have room in your bag for a few rolls of film, so where's the problem in taking along a couple of extra batteries?

This battery/no battery issue may be a problem with the F5, for instance, but not with the Hexar, as far as I know or can imagine. 140 rolls per battery set - big problem.

-- rob appleby (rob@robertappleby.com), May 05, 2001.

It's my experience that a camera (or lens) which has a problem "right out of the box" will be an Albatross. Don't just get it fixed, make them replace it.

-- Bill Mitchell (bmitch@home.com), May 05, 2001.

Rob and David - Don't get me wrong, I think the Hexar is a fine camera, and a great additional body for a Leica system. But it doesn't have the lens and accessory range of the Leica. And I do have a client who took his Hexar north of the Artic circle and got very few photos. At -35 C the camera quit. With proper lube an M would just keep on going. I definitely would buy a Hexar as a 2nd body - but if I could only have one camera, I'd take an M over the Hexar. This is not coming from a Leica 'nut', I've owned a fixed lens Hexar since '93, still use it, and consider it the best camera for the $$ on the market.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), May 05, 2001.

I won't argue with the efficacy of a Hexar RF at the north/south poles because this South Floridian isn't about to go there--ever. But the statement that the Hexar RF doesn't have the lens or accessory range of the Leica M is just not true since it has the same lensmount and almost the same body dimensions and layout. It's got almost the same range, only the "goggled" lenses might not fit properly, and of course the clip-on meters and motors, but they aren't needed. Most all of the less-than-obscure accessories that anyone's likely to use with the M6 will work with the Hexar. I even use my Visoflex on the Hexar, with a 400mm lens, and due to the AE it works faster and more conveniently than on an M6. I use a Viso-II, but with a Viso-III prism (the same would be required with an M6TTL due to the taller body). I have made a very small modification to the tip of the release screw so it clears the bezel around the Hexar's release button; but a small piece of foam rubber works also.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 05, 2001.

Bob: I mentioned the Hexar because its an excellent alternative to Steve's .58 M6 Maybe a superior alternative -a kind of big CLE. I'm looking forward to putting Voigtlander's new fast 28 on mine. But my M3 is still the camera I would take to the middle of nowhere if I could only take one. Willi Stein was an awesome designer. That said, I really like this new state of affairs. For Leica, its going to be "Root, hog, or die" and that could lead to corporate health. The customers no longer have to write $2000 checks for $500 lenses, though they can if they wish. I've always felt that led to a specific form of brain damage, in which the patient sees things in his negatives that even Irwin Puts assures us can't be there in a handheld sho

-- david kelly (dmkedit@aol.com), May 05, 2001.

Heck, guys, if you like the Hexar RF, enjoy it!

I've had Leicas since 1968, my family has had them since 1947, and in all that time the only repairs I've ever needed have been a replacement set of shutter curtains for the 1946 IIc that I bought for $50 in 1968.

I bought a new Leica, an M6TTL, last year for the first time along with a couple of lenses. I added another body, an M4-P, to the kit along with another couple of lenses. And I think I'll have this equipment until I'm pushing up daisies. And then my grandnephew/niece will likely have it.

I don't know whether you can say the same for your Konica, but then what does it really matter? Leica makes great stuff, so does Konica, and what matters in the end are fine photographs. Concentrate on that and deal with whatever minor glitches might happen along the way.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey DiGiorgi (ramarren@bayarea.net), May 05, 2001.

I agree with Bill Mitchel. Whoever sold you the camera should give you another. When I bought an M6 new the film counter would not reset. I took it back to where I had bought it, Eagle Photo in Portsmouth NH (shameless plug) and they gave me another new body and apoligized for the inconvience. The same thing happened when I bought a used R8 from Don Chatterton. It had a problem, I sent it back and recieved a replacement the same week. You should demand the same service and satisfaction from the dealer you purchased your M from. Unless of course you bought it from some shady grey market house, in which case you got what you paid for.

Regards Steve

P\S I am NOT refering to Delta International.

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@tds.net), May 06, 2001.

I recently bought a 35 Summi APSH which was still under passport from my local Leica dealer, and a week after using it, it developed a fault, which was then sent back to Leica in UK. 2 weeks later it came back and still had the same problem. When my dealer contacted Leica service, they said that they cant fix the lens (prob hoping that I wouldnt notice that they havent done anything!) and that I had to send it to Leica germany where they have this one off machine that aligns the lens elements. 6 weeks later, still no lens. Very poor service, considering the price you pay for this stuff.

-- Karl Yik (karl_yik@excite.com), May 16, 2001.