I was chatting to Softie about this in the pub last night. I can't help thinking that a drop to the first division might shake the club out of the horrific complacency that has settled around it. We'd get rid of the players who aren't committed to the club as they'd be the first rats to desert the ship, we'd have something that we could conceivably win (ie. First Division Championship) and could start building from the bottom instead of piling on the bricks from on top. Seriously, was the latter part of the 80s and early nineties any worse than the crushing mediocrity and sheer boredom we are suffering now? I know there are financial issues surrounding relegation but if we stayed down for just a year, we'd survive, and we'd get a bit of variation in away venues.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Answers

Dougal, don't be silly, you actually think getting relegated would be a positive thing? And we'll be straight back, just like Wimbledon, Palace, Forest, Norwich , Blackburn and half the other teams in that division?

Wouldn't it be better if we targeted the players that we believe aren't good enough for our team and try to persude the management that we would be better off without them?

top of my list would be Barton, followed Marcelino, Cordone, Gallacher , Speed, Bassedas and Dabizas.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

I don't agree Rik - we are just piling crap upon crap at the moment and will continue doing so until we get a kick up the arse. Also, the first division would finally bury the myth that we are a big club. We are actually West Ham with pretensions.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Don't be bloody stupid.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Yellow card Dougal. Dissent. Yer out of order, and your booing thread, added to this one makes me worry. If you're losing interest, I'd like to take your season ticket off your hands.... :-)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Nah. The club could go into administration if we didn't have the revenue PL games provide. Season ticket sales would plummet, top names would desert us / not sign. We would be put further back than when we started with KK.

Frustration with the current mix of jokers, yes - but wanting relegation? Self flagellation, I think it's called.

Disaster.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Well thought out argument, Dave. Are you always that articulate? Gibbo, get your own season ticket: they aren't exactly hard to come by. I'm not bored, but, after supporting United for 24 years, I'm f*cking furious that we are as bad as we have been in my supporting life.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

This thread may well get VERY long (I'll be back with more...).

As a born and bred Geordie, living, working, travelling, meeting people all over the world (are plastic Mancs. people?) and life-long Toon supporter WE CANNOT ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE RELEGATED!!!

We'll get there, it might take 5-10 years (young Bobby Softie might witness 'the revival'), sorry Dougal (IMHO) your Wham analogy is absolute b*ll**S.

"variation in away venues",tongue in cheek, surely???

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Bollox! There's no guaranteee that we would bounce straight back. That's just arrogance talking. Make no mistake, if we were playing in the First Division next season, it would be without Dyer, Solano, Cort and probably Shearer. Others would be keen on getting out to (Given, Bassedas??). We'd then have to build a new team - and that would take far longer than a season.

In the meantime, I doubt if we'd sell anywhere near our capacity of STs ot seats on the day, reducing the income. OK, so our wage bill might be smaller, but we'd be a smaller club with a half-empty stadium.

No - we must stay in the EPL (obviously this is all hypothetical) and strive to move up from the middle tier to the top, alongside ManUre, Arse, Liverpool and probably Leeds and/or Chewsee. If that requires a major rethink -but better to do it while in the EPPL than outside it.

I give YBR until Christmas - that will be over 2 seasons since he took over. We know he's been struggling with the xfer regs, but other teams have re-built or increased their squads while he has done little in this respect - and those he's bought haven't realised their potentials - Bassedas, Cordone, Quinn, O'Brien (why??) and Lua x2 for starters. A man with his reputation and experience should have been able to spot and attract better than that for the money he's spent. But what bothers me more is his seeming inability to motivate the players he's got. None of you will convince me that Charlton have a better set of individuals than us. Nor Southampton, nor indeed that lot doon the road. But they all have a better team spirit and never more true the "total being greater than the sum of the parts" than wil teams like that.

Of course Robson isn't the only one to blame - much of the "atmosphere " inside the club comes from senior management, nit just team management. There may well be pockets of discontent (don't tell me there isn't at most clubs/businesses). It is manegement's job to control this and indeed turn it round to work in favour rather than against. If not, then clear out the troublemakers.

So howay Bobby. Either you do something which has us in the top 6 by Christmas or you know what to do. I'm sorry to say it, but you haven't been performing like a top manager over the last few months. Oh - BTW. Will you please go to Holland again on Saturday so we can keep a clean sheet against 'pool

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

If someone had told me ten years ago that in ten years time, we'd have a team good enough to finish tenth in the First Division (premiership) I'd have laughed at the optimistic bugger.....

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Did I say that I wanted us to get relegated? I merely said that it would have its attractions. I do stand firm by the West Ham analogy, though: WE ARE NOT A BIG CLUB.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Besides which we don't need money: Douggie says we're loaded already :)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

You're just pissed of Dougs....it's understandable.....but relegation wouldn't do a thing for us, other than give us something else to complain about...

We need someone at the top to turn this around, someone to see what is going wrong and fix it.....it doesn't appear that young mr robson is doing that although i'm still hopeful he'll sort it out...

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

True, Gibbo.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

On balance, I agree with Gav.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Common Dougal, stop trying to wriggle out of the daftest posting you've ever made, by trying to change the couse of this thread. If you want to chat about "what a big is" then start another thread so that this one can remain, the "Lets chear ourselves up by laughing at Dougals strange thoughts thread"

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Frustration has strange side-effects. Wanting Newcastle relegated is akin to kicking the cat - the desire to destroy something, blow the whole thing up, and start again. For me though, a summer break more often than not dispels a lot of negative memories and hope always springs eternal at the beginning of each season. If the start of that season is in the premiership then so much the better. After all, let's face it, most of us are frustrated because we're not going to get into Europe despite it being a mediocre season for a lot of other clubs. If we'd played to our full potential of even our current squad, we would have breezed it. Instead we've stumbled unispiringly and insipidly to mid table obscurity without even putting up a fight.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Erh, Dougal, how many times in the last 6-8 years have Wham finished runners up in the Premier League and / or the FA Cup, played in Europe, sold the second (?) biggest ground in the country out, had the top scorer (ever in the PL), most expensive player (until recently) and a hometown boy to boot...?

Passionate supporters, all over the world - I CAN VERIFY THAT

Small club, eh?

Case rested (temporarily...) ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

I'm articulate enough Dougal, as you well know, just thought the original (tongue firmly in cheek?)posting warranted a succinct and forthright response. Only 3 more weeks of this God awful Season to go then we can all chill 'til August brings more of the bleedin' same.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

They're just pretensions Bud. ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

we are unquestionably a BIG Club Dougal - look at our attendances. We are also a spectacularly unsuccessful big Club - they are different issues.NUFC reminds me of an article I read several years ago titled "The Miracle of Economic Stagnation in Argentina".
The point of the article was that Argentina has everything it could possibly need to become an economic super-power - natural resources, good education system, etc. etc. - and even so it has miraculously failed to achieve much beyond 3rd-world status.
Substitute NUFC for Argentina and you have our situation, with the identical underlying cause - poor management.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Sorry!

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Clarky - so when exactly did the USA support a right wing military coup at St James Park? :-)

Thing is, I don't think we are set to become a world power in football. I'm not sure if the management is to blame, 'cos all I saw yesterday were 13 men shaming the club I/we love.

Actually, Given was ok and got a squeezed in the nuts by Davies, so make that 12...

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

so when exactly did the USA support a right wing military coup at St James Park? :-)

Sssshhhh...be vewwy, vewwy quiet.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Bobby,

Simple question - who appoints the team manager, coaches, medical staff, who pays the wages, who decides whether to invest in decent training facilities, who decides whether to invest in a youth Academy, etc. etc. etc? Just where do you believe the buck really stops?

Keep blaming the present crop of useless players if you wish - but I'll guarantee you still be blaming them when you're very old and very grey, and Pit Bill and me are kicking up the daisies.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

So just what are you sugesting Mr Clarke?

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

I'm suggesting, Mr. Mills, that NUFC will never be a top Club as long as they are directed by Mr. F. Shepherd and Mr. D. Hall.

Guessing that your next questions will be have they had a fair crack of the whip (unfortunate analogy given the individuals), and what can we do about it? My answers will be:

1) they inherited a team that had finished runner-up in the PL and was playing in the CL, and after 5 years in charge have reduced us to perennial relegation candidates, and a national laughing stock. 2) nothing - depressing eh?

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

So , as they are the men at the top, they should be the ones to go?

Hey I wouldn't mind that, I think that they are a bunch of amateurs, but who is going to be daft enough to buy thm out? that nice Mr lamor Hunt? The sultan of Bruneii or maybe that bloke with the road repair company that ownes 4%?

I don't think any one is daft enough to invest in NUFC and that's the most depressing thing at the moment. You don't have a spare £50 millon knocking about do you? You'd make a brilliant NUFC chairman.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Clarky - I haven't absolved management, but the players on the pitch were all of a decent enough calibre to take an ailing Southampton to task (9 from 13 international caps at U-21 and senior level). I saw barely anything that resembled a team of professionals at Division 2. In fact, Leyton Orient would have given us a hard time...again!

The Board have supported all our managers with no small amount of money since KK, with YBR being the only one to have to feed from scraps in that time. I definitely think the transfer system agro caused major jitters, but this summer is the make or break for Robson.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Yes I do, Rik. They may well be Toon fans but I feel they are incapable of directing a significant public company and delivering success.

I think it would take more than £50 million to take over the Club, and then run it successfully. The share price has gone up to 40p, valuing the Club at ca. £60mm. The present shareholders would want a premium to sell out, and I doubt you'd be able to buy it for less than £80mm.

The Club is heavily in debt, although long-term debt finance is in place. However, there is immediate priority need to invest in Training Facilities and a Youth Academy, which together would cost say £10-15mm.

The playing squad is a disaster, and you'd have to contemplate spending £30-40mm immediately to ensure the Club didn't drop into the Nationwide next season, and then potentially another similar amount next summer to take the Club on a level.

All in all, I feel anyone taking over NUFC would need to have finance available of some £150mm - and I can't honestly see anyone being able to justify that level of investment to potential funders.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Why on earth has the share price gone up?

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

People have been buying the shares!

I'll take a look later and see if anything significant has been going on.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Okay I'll re-phrase the question! Why have people been buying the shares.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

The recent share price increase has come on the back of 'someone' buying 250,000 shares on Monday, for £100k - no idea who unfortunately.

While checking this out I also note that on April 20 Legal & General advised the Club it's shareholding had increased from 3.6% to 4.0%, and interestingly the Club's banker, Barclays Bank, advised them that they held 7mm shares giving them a 4.8% stake in the Club. None of the major shareholders appear to have sold any shares to L&G or Barclays, so presumably they must have been accumulated from the public.

The latter move is interesting. Either Barclay's inside knowledge tells them NUFC is a good investment opportunity, or I just wonder if they could be acquiring shares for a third-party. Hhmmm.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

.....or for a share buy-back by the existing major shareholders?

Windy, Floridian - any thoughts on this?

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Nothing to do with them sponsoring the Premiership for the next 3 years then? Making an early bid to have influence in the Nationwide as well by the looks of things...

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Right, can I first explain that I work closely with the people who did the NUFC stadium securitisation so I can tell you precisely how many seats we need to fill game after game to repay our debts and, even in the Premiership, if something doesn't change, we are in big trouble. The club has been complacent and envisages loads of us daft b*stards turning up week after week to watch cack and also shows no commitment to long term strategy like a discernible youth policy and decent training facilities. We may be a big club and we are in danger of collapsing under our own weight because we have no infrastructure at all.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

I've heard it said many times on the radio that 'one' Premiership club is in serious danger of going pop.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Dougal...Eh??

So how many seats do we have to fill then and how can we possibly be in big trouble???....just look at the season ticket renewal thread, i'm the only person thinking of giving my season tickets up and even I'm still gonna be going to the matches!

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Dougal, what happens if the income from seats/corporate hospitality (which I think is the basis for the bonds) doesn't meet what's required to pay the interset on the bonds? Obviously there would be no surplus for the club, but I thought any shortfall was the risk of the bondholders - so no chance of it causing the club to collapse or even effect the playing side to adversely. I thought that was the whole point of it?
I think there are clubs a lot more likely to go under than us, because we haven't pushed the boat out much at all recently, financially speaking. Like many, I feel we've probably been too conservative...
Clarky - re the shareprice move - haven't a clue mate other than the fact it was starting to look reasonable value. Perhaps we've sold Dyer for £25Million?

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Share-Price, Could the bid for NTL from AOL/Time Warner have any significance?

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

God, what an intersting thread this turned out to be.

Starts out with a daft suggestion about getting relegated from Dougal, who later on doesn't let us in on the unspecified number of Premiership seats we need to sell every week to cover costs.

Share price discussions ensue. And then Buff our day-trader in the north drops in his pennysworth about the AOL/NTl/Time Warner news.

Hey, and we all worldly wise today.

But it has to be better than trying to work out how far Carl Cort can trap the ball, or how far Warren Barton can kick a ball straight into the goalies hands, or how slow Wayne Quinn can look when somebody runs at him, or even how much work Gary Speed must be doing off the ball.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Relegation for no more than ONE season would not be a disaster but it's certainly not something any here would welcome (including Dougal of course). The parachute payments to relegated teams would keep us afloat and as we would be winning most weeks (I did say just ONE season) then the crowds would be happy. In 1948, United were promoted from old Div 2 and set a record average attendance of 54000 or thereabouts. This record stood for approx 25 years until surpassed by Manutd - who were also being promoted from Divison 2.

Of course, if God forbid, we were relegated, there would be no guarantee of an instant return and then the club would be in very dire straits with massive debts and falling gates. Oh - and we would have to hand NTL their £25m back. No the prospect of relegation is a nightmare scenario.

The other nightmare scenario is to continue playing like we have been for the last 4 years ....

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Does anyone seriously believe these gutless turds could battle their way out of the Nationwide??
Div 2 would be a more likely proposition.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

I wouldn't think it has anything to do with NTL, Buff. However, I do seem to recall some time ago there was a suggestion that Time Warner were interested in buying into a PL Club. If they acquired NTL they would automatically pick up 9.8% of the Toon shares, so they could be looking to pick up even more.

It certainly looks to me as though someone may be accumulating shares by buying from the retail market, ie from Joe Public, but who and why I can't say.

The share price has gone up almost entirely because someone bought 250,000 on Monday.

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

The recent share price increase has come on the back of 'someone' buying 250,000 shares on Monday, for £100k - no idea who unfortunately.

Well....I had to do something with a bit of my redundancy money didn't I, and I thought if I spirited away some of it into a struggling company then the CofEx might just take pity on me and let me off some of the tax burden!

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

What a difference a day makes:

"WE ARE NOT A BIG CLUB". -- dougal (dougal09@hotmail.com), May 02, 2001.

"We may be a big club" -- dougal (dougal09@hotmail.com), May 03, 2001.

...and today?

;-)

-- Anonymous, May 03, 2001

Share price has blipped up again by 5% to 42p.

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2001

No inconsistency there, Bud. We are big in that we are an unwieldy monster but it is risible to compare ourselves to LFC, mufc, any Italian club and most Spanish clubs.

-- Anonymous, May 04, 2001