This question goes out to all the women on this forum, please give your views

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On another thread Tar argued that pregnancy was akin to an illness, "undesired" condition, implying that women must seek out medical treatment for such a condition. Tar went as far as to mock that any woman would want to be pregnant and endure the symptoms that come with it (nausea, hemorrhoids, fatigue, weight gain, high blood pressure). I pointed out that pregnancy is a normal function of the female body. Using it for its intent is similar to using your colon for its intended purpose. Of course if something goes wrong with your colon, or your heart or any other organ, seek out medical attention. But pregnancy isn't something that needs a cure. It's a desired (in fact necessary for the survival of our species) condition.

When I was growing up pregnant women were treated "specially". The women's lib in me really found this attitude annoying at the very least. Sure pregnant women shouldn't left heavy items, shouldn't overdo things. But healthy pregnant women are certainly capable of continuing to perform every day functions. During each of my pregnancies, I continued to work up to the last minute, worked out (minus the sit ups due to the repositioned stomach muscles), and jogged or walked or swam every day. No one was going to tell me that I couldn't do something because of my "gentle" condition. If I felt I could do it without injury, I wouldn't take the lazy way out and sit on my duff.

How do you feel about this attitude? Let me know your view. Please note: the male point of view on this topic can be voiced however it won't count for much.

-- Maria (maria947@hotmail.com), April 26, 2001

Answers

Be fair. Tarzan listed the illnesses that come along with pregnancy and made the point that some women would choose to avoid pregnancy because of them and others would choose to get pregnant anyway. Since insurance pays for women to choose pregnancy insurance should also pay for women to not get pregnant. He even said that for women who want to be pregnant, not being pregnant was an undesired condition that's treated through insurance, but women who find pregnancy an undesired condition don't get treated the same.

You said repeatedly that women don't need to go to the doctor when they're pregnant. You even said that Tarzan set the course of women's rights back several years by saying pregnant women should be under a doctor's care. When Tarzan cited statistics showing women who don't get prenatal care have a high rate of infant mortalities you said that literature could take the place of prenatal care. Then you said that you went to a nurse when you were pregnant. Tarzan pointed out that seeing a nurse is prenatal care. Helen pointed out that you were irresponsible for telling pregnant women not to seek prenatal care.

-- A Fan of the Ape Man (a.fan@of.theape.man), April 26, 2001.


Healthy babies = good

Dead babies = bad

I hate abortion for just this reason and I dislike Tarzan for supporint it. However Tarzan is right (this time.) If you're pregnant make sure you see a doctor on a regular basis so your baby has the best chance to grew well and be healthy. If you don't want to get pregnant be responsible.

-- Male Point of View (male@point.of.view), April 26, 2001.


fan, "You said repeatedly that women don't need to go to the doctor when they're pregnant." Yes and they don't. A nurse midwife is NOT a doctor, yet provides the care necessary.

Thanks for your view.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), April 26, 2001.


Please note: the male point of view on this topic can be voiced however it won't count for much.

Oh sure...we don't count for much when it comes to discussing pregnancy, tell me, how much does my penis count for?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 26, 2001.


You clearly said that women don't need medical care, doctor, nurse, or otherwise.

Here's what you said "Of course it doesn't need treatment. Using the womb for its intended purpose doesn't need medical attention. Would you seek medical treatment for using your colon? No woman needs medical attention for a perfectly natural human function. Many, in today's society, don't go to the OB and hospital for delivering babies. Thanks for setting women's lib back a few decades with your thinking, Tar. "

-- A Fan of the Ape Man (a.fan@of.theape.man), April 26, 2001.



Uh....Unk??

You may want to rephrase that........LOL!!

I can add that my ex had to be admitted to the hospital with both kids. Wasn't pretty.....lotsa bleeding and stuff. Not sure a mid- wife woulda been much help.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), April 26, 2001.


My "male" point of view is that it is lowdown and sneaky to paraphrase Tarzan very inaccurately from another thread and not to give a link to that thread so people could see how badly you are misrepresenting his point of view.

I realize Tarzan recently called you "not the sharpest knife in the drawer" in another thread. I can see how this would tend to create bad blood. But this 'stab' at retaliation is um, pretty poor stuff.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 26, 2001.


I guess your penis counts for...

(wait for it)

(it's coming)

dick!

-- Alice in Wonder Bra (alice@wonder.bra), April 26, 2001.


"When I was growing up pregnant". Maria, this sounds very traumatic. You have my sympathies.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 26, 2001.

Hi Maria

Well since you asked...

I loved being pregnant. Especially with my 5 year-old. I was more mature, knew what to expect, and less scared. It's such a wonderful powerful and feminine experience, it just cant be explained in words. I had some morning sickness the first few months, but it abated. And it was kinda hard to be in the ninth month in the heat of august. I worked until 4 wks before, and the entire last month I spent down at the beach in a bikini. heehee =)

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 26, 2001.



Tarzan is staunchly pro-abortion. The more interesting question is whether Tarzan feels ANY restriction on abortion is appropriate. Should a third trimester abortion be a matter between a woman and her doctor? How (and when) does a society draw the line where a fetus obtains some legal protection? Since Tarzan is neither a woman nor a doctor, I'm really not interested in his insights on pregnancy.

-- The shadow (knows@gain.com), April 26, 2001.

shadow = maria

-- (dudesy@37.com), April 26, 2001.

Sure it would be an interesting question Shadow but the question at hand in the original thread was about contraception not abortion. Proabortion or prolife everyone should be pro responsibility.

-- Male Point of View (male@point.of.view), April 26, 2001.

Shadow,

The more interesting question is whether Tarzan feels ANY restriction on abortion is appropriate.

The answer is no. On a prior thread Tarzan has stated that a mother should be able to end the life of a deformed infant EVEN AFTER it was born, so I seriously doubt he has any compunctions about killing them earlier.

-- Still (Interested@tarzan.nutcase), April 26, 2001.


Do you have a link to that thread? I'd love to check it out.

-- Male Point of View (male@point.of.view), April 26, 2001.


It was about 6 months ago at Pooles I think. If I get the time Ill look.

-- Helpful (but@time.to.work.now), April 26, 2001.

I'd like to see that thread, too. I rarely post at Poole's and that's certainly not my opinion, so I eagerly await your proof.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 26, 2001.

Unk, LOL what a chuckle! Unk your views count for lots!

Deano, sorry to hear about the troubles. Hoped everything worked out ok.

Lars, yeah missing commas. LOL

Cin, thanks for sharing your experiences. Mine was just about the same, morning sickness and the feeling of carrying a bowling ball between your legs. But the birth was the most moving, joyful, of any life experience, no match to anything. Even when I coached, watching a baby come into the world is just indescribable. If I could do it all over again, I'd become a nurse midwife.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), April 26, 2001.


"Please note: the male point of view on this topic can be voiced however it won't count for much."

Capn peeks in and asks "Does that mean a blow job is totally out of the question?

I mean,it is THE ultimate in contraception : )

Seein' as how my voice don't count fer much.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 26, 2001.


I'm glad you had a good pregnancy. Is this why you think insurance should only cover the choice to become pregnant and not the choice to not be pregnant?

-- smart ass gal (smart@ss.gal), April 26, 2001.

Maria

Both turned out OK. The 2nd (with my boy) was the worst. Ex had never had chicken pox, the 3 yr old daughter gets the pox while the ex is 7 1/2 months pregnant and we're on vacation on the Gulf Coast. I can tell you that a 7 1/2 month pregnant woman who has contracted chicken pox (might have been shingles at that point) in the middle of vacation was one of the worst experiences of my life.

I wouldn't even wish that on hardliner......;-)

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), April 26, 2001.


Well, I have a little trouble believing Tarzan advocated infanticide of children with birth defects, although I can imagine him making an argument for third trimester abortions. How about it, Tarzan. When does society have a right to intercede and why? Is a fetus at any stage of development the biological "property" of the mother? Does a mother with last second doubts have a legitimate right to terminate the life of her child? Let's move away from the easy target of anti- abortion protestors and move into the real debate. Most of the pro- abortion folks have a pretty easy time when abortion involves an unformed fetus. When you talk about a child that could survive outside the woman's body, the debate gets a bit less comfortable.

-- The shadow (knows@gain.com), April 26, 2001.

Shadow-

Interesting discussion and one I have many thoughts about, but I've got a documentation meeting in a few minutes and a dinner party tonight and besides, I've gotten a couple of e-mails regarding my affection for thread drift. Why don't you start a separate thread? I can't promise I'll address it tonight, but I should be able to get to it sometime tomorrow or this weekend.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 26, 2001.


Unk...do you count more than one?

-- helen (eek@eek.eek), April 26, 2001.

This is a subject that I have mixed feelings on. I have been through six pregnancies. I considered using a midwife for the last one. After all, though I had a tendency towards large babies. My last two had come rather quickly, and without a lot of fuss. My sister is a midwife, and her two chidren were delivered that way. My other sister has 3 and all were supposed to be delivered by a mid-wife, but she ended up going in to the hospital anyway for two out of the three (possibly agravated by the fact that she is a chain-smoker).

Anyway, as things turned out, there were interesting complications this time around, and if I hadn't had the best in medical care available to me, the baby most likely would not have made it, and I may not have either. The guilt, if I had gone the mid-wife route, and then lost the baby, would have been very hard for me to deal with.

On the other hand, I suspect a mid-wife would have suspected there were problems ahead of time, and realized that this would be high risk delivery and refused to do it. For most deliveries however, I think a mid-wife is not only adequate, they may be preferable, since the mother may be less likely to experience many of the complications that modern delivery techniques actually create or worsen. (i.e. the difficulties during labor that result from putting a mother on her back on a delivery table that often make a caesarian section much more likely.) It's just very hard to know in advance! It's certainly nice to have a medical fall-back in the vicinity.

Susie

-- Susie (susie0884@aol.com), April 26, 2001.


I think this is another joke thread, since I'd already read the first one and never saw Tarzan say anything like Unk [in the form of Maria] stated. I think that when Unk goes into Maria mode he's quite the jokester, as I'd never in my life gone to or encouraged my mom to go to a Medicare doctor before he accused me of Medicare Fraud, and AFAIK my daughters haven't been arrested since they were 8 and 10, respectively, but I read Unk say [in the form of Maria] that I started a thread about my daughters' arrest. He ALSO said that insurance companies stopped covering circumcision. I remember the "hoopla" regarding circumcision, and the Canadian government DID drop coverage in 1983. The debate continues, however, in the U.S., with SOME folks [opposed to circumcision] using the same arguments as in the early 80's: "If insurance refuses to cover it, folks will stop getting it."

Although I'm really a short, fat, bald male, I DID want to reply to Susy.

I know this woman, Anita, who gave birth at the Birthing Center of a hospital in Illinois. Her first birthing was uneventful, so she thought she'd have future births at home. She compromised on the Birthing Center, which was a pretty cool place. It was IN a hospital, but she could roam the halls, sit on a bed, and even have her firstborn and all her family in the room with her, watching T.V., or listening to the stereo. She told me everyone was joking and laughing when the doctor came in for the delivery and asked, "Who said this woman was complete?" The baby was delivered with Anita sitting up on the bed and her oldest jumping up and down on the bed stating, "Here comes the head! Look at the cute little ears!" She was able to go home after 12 hours. The birthing room has all the emergency equipment hidden behind the facade of a small suite in a hotel. She said she never got shaved, never got an enema, and never had to take any drugs.

On the midwife thing, there's a movie out that tells the story of one of them. I think the name is The Midwife, but if not, it's something close. This woman had delivered 300 or so babies, and if she saw a risky situation, she referred the woman to a doctor [who had nothing but reverence for this woman.]

The environment was somewhere in Northern U.S.A. during winter when the midwife's last delivery came. An ice storm had moved in while the midwife was attending to the delivery, and after 24 hours of labor, the midwife KNEW something was wrong. She tried her damndest to get the woman to a hospital, but she fell all over the ice trying to pull up the car. She KNEW she had to handle the situation herself. The woman, then, experienced some sortof seizure. She fell back, as though dead, and the midwife found no pulse or heartbeat on examination. In an attempt to try and save the newborn, the midwife told the husband to look for the sharpest knife in the house. While he was looking for that knife, she checked the pulse and heartbeat again. Nothing.

To make a long story short, the midwife took a butcher knife to the abdomen of the woman in an attempt at a C-section. She saw the body flinch, which wouldn't happen if the woman were dead, but she continued. Blood spurted at the incision, which wouldn't happen if the woman were dead, either, but she continued, as she hadn't been trained in the type of seizure involved. She was brought up on charges, but she was released. She never did practice midwifery after that, however. The movie was based on a true story [if one can believe that after watching a movie.]

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 26, 2001.


Anita: I saw that film recently, and it was just horrifying. It was as if every thing in the world conspired against that poor lady. (Both the mother AND the midwive, actually). Susie

-- Susie (susie0884@aol.com), April 26, 2001.

Susie:

Yep...it kindof gave new meaning to that "Shit happens" bumper sticker.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 26, 2001.


Susie, you reminded me of a woman I knew some 20 years ago. She had both her children at home. During the second delivery, she felt very uncomfortable and the midwife told her to get on all fours. With pillows supporting the uterus, she delivered the baby "upside down". Actually it's probably a better position than with the mother on her back. The baby is no longer pressing on the main arteries coming down from the heart. Also when the baby crowns, he has to push his head up; but it this position, gravity helps the baby's movement. It looked like a really stupid position with the woman's butt up in the air but hey if it works, great!

Now if she had gone to the hospital, I don't believe that any doctor would allow her to get into that position. It made it a little more difficult for the midwife but solved a lot of problems for the mother. Doctors would have insisted that she stay on her back. The man who first forced women on their back should be shot! Oh that's right, King Louis is already dead.

Thanks for sharing your story.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), April 27, 2001.


Ok, call me 'weak' but I couldnt read all of anita's post. It was too ewwwwy for me.

I hated being pregnant, but I worked back then, cleaning houses, scrubbing other peeps floors by hand.!!!!

Nothin wrong w/that. But, if any woman who is pregnant has medical issues w/herself or the baby, I would have a problem with hard working.

Unc, your penis counted for how many? LOL.

Capn, ROFLMAO, um, nope, no sucky, but um, nice try...LOL.

Suzy, 6? sheeetttt!!!!

Deano, personally I couldnt much think of a more horid experience for a woman on vacation.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), April 27, 2001.


Maria, I can relate to being annoyed at being told not to do this and not to do that.I never felt better in my whole life than when I was expecting my one and only.

-- Chris (enquiries@griffenmill.com), April 28, 2001.

From a male point of view, the very thought of having to impregnate a fat skank like 'sumer' conjures up thoughts of celibacy and mad hog disease.

-- A (very@hairy.scary), April 29, 2001.

Hairy-scary: 'Sumer is probably the slightest female poster on this forum. She's neither tall NOR heavy. You can hate her all you want, and she won't care any more than I will, but you need another argument to make your point.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 29, 2001.

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