Is there Biblical input for/against having Saturday Evening Services? I'm talking about a 'full' service (preaching, singing, communion, etc.) that people may attend INSTEAD of Sunday Service.

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Answers

I love it!!

I have neither the time nor desire to discuss the issue....but Matthew's response points out one of the main problems I have with the modern day church....i.e., what can we do to make Christianity...convenient.

In addition to historical and other problems with the Sat. worship issue...one of the main questions I have always had that not a single person has ever answered for me is this.....

By what logic does one maintain that people will be more committed on a Saturday evening as opposed to a Sunday and/or Sunday evening??

Matthew....we have had other arrangements for years......it's called Sunday evening services.

But....I'm not so naive as to realize....we have also cancelled most of those for convience as well.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

Robin....

Simply put.....I have no problem with a service that seeks to reach others. I have a problem with a service that replaces what the Scriptures clearly teach as the Lord's Day....and what every single early church father (without an exception) stated as their time of worship....i.e., Sunday. There is not a single historical incident of Christians gathering on Saturday nights for corporate worship. They may have come together for many reasons...but the day of recognized worship....in which the Lord's table was met around....was Sunday.

In fact, most of the corporate worship of the N.T. church took place on Sunday evenings....since most of them were slaves and had to work from sunrise to sunset. Then....they gathered together on Sunday evening for the Agape Feast....(the setting of 1 Cor. 11)......which included the Lord's Supper.....followed by preaching and exhortation...(take note in Acts 20 of Paul prolonging his message into midnight).

Robin....the early church fathers were quite replete with their description of the worship of the early church. But don't take my word for it.....I would highly recommend a book to you by Stevenson....called "A New Eusebius."

It is a collection of many of the important writings of the early church fathers....categorized by topics.

I'm convinced one of the reasons churches are able to pull this kind of stuff over on people of our day is due to historical (let alone biblical) evidence.

If Scott Sheridan is reading this....Scott also has done a lot of church history research and will back me up on not only the accuracy of what I am saying....but also....the usefulness and insightfulness of the book.

So in a nutshell Robin, in the words of Fox Moulder of the X- Files...."The Truth is Out There!".....

but you gotta look. That way....you won't have to deal with a great deal of what goes on with this board...i.e, "I think"...."I feel"....etc...etc.

And by the way John....don't muddy the waters with discussion of "Wed. night Youth Service." That has nothing to do with anything....and come real close to a smoke screen.

You can have church 7 days a week if you want...but the historical fact is....there is only one Lord's Day.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Robin...

Thought of one other thing.....were not the Corinthians chided for attending pagan festivals (aka "Table of Demons")....on one night and then turning around and meeting around the Lord's Table the next day?? (I Cor. 10)

My only point is there.....I don't know where or what they were doing....but according to Paul....they weren't attending Sat. evening worship services.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

My response to your question is that the Bible is neutral on the subject. In Romans 14:5-6, Paul talks about a man who considers one day moer sacred than another and another man considers every day alike. There is no problem with this as long as one is "fully convinced in his own mind."

We attend a church that has Saturday evening services and that is when my family goes. It is most convenient for us to go then. It also lessens the Sunday morning "let's get a move on because we are going to be late" situations. You know what can happen on Sunday morning when the whole family is trying to get ready for church and nothing is going right. When you finally get there, you then have to try to get in a proper spirit of worship.

I think that God will gladly receive our praise and worship no matter where or when we give it to Him, as long as our hearts are right with Him.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Danny,

Welcome back from turkey hunting... I hope it didn't turn out that you were the only 'turkey' in the woods! :-)

I hope that you will find a bit of time and desire to participate in this discussion. One thing I have admired about your input on various topics is your ability to 'cut to the Bible'... in other words, finding a Biblical reason for/against something rather than the 'ways of the past'. You have alluded to "historical and other problems with the Sat. worship issue". I'm not sure what you mean by 'historical' problems... perhaps the whole 7th-Day Adventist issue? But, I would be most interested in the 'other problems' you mention.... Are these Biblical problems? (That is what I am interested in... as I indicated in the original thread.)

The church I have in mind that is considering Sat. Evening Service is doing so for a couple of reasons, I believe. First, it might bring people in who already attend another church denomination on Sunday... then, hopefully, they will like what they see and hear taught and will join in on Sundays. Second, the service will be a bit more 'informal'... hopefully, attracting some who might not be willing to first attend a 'traditional' service.... So, the aim I believe is evangelistic... rather than mere convenience.

By the way, what is wrong with convenience? If it is OK Biblically and works to get more people exposed to the Word... is it bad?

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

It surprises me that people who claim to adhear to sola scriptura sometimes insist on a Sunday morning service. It is a _church tradition_ to have meetings onteh first day of the week. One thing that fueled this tradition is the fact that Jesus rose on the first day of the week.

There is _one example_ of the church meeting on the first day of the week. It's not a command, it's an example. And Paul was leaving on a ship the next day, so it makes sense that they would have met to talk with Paul about the Gospel before he left. Some try to make a 'pattern' out of one example. Can you make an example out of one thing.

But here is something to think about, that example, when the saints met, might have taken place on SATURDAY NIGHT rather than Monday morning. in Jewish reckoning, sundown on Saturday is the first day of the week. The Sabbath ends at sundown and the first day of the week begins.

Some think that Paul met with the people on Saturday night, and left the next morning, rather than meeting in the morning and leaving 24 hours later. (Wouldn't they have broken bread more than once if this were the case?) Another bit of this type of one-verse pattern evidence is the fact that Paul wrote to the Corinthians and mentioned the 'Lord's Supper.' The Greek word for supper refers to the meal eaten toward the evening- the main meal fo the day back then. So if it were Paul's custom to teach churches to celebrate this meal together as a _supper_ (and as a meal rather than with small symbolic portions,) then perhaps in Acts 20, he was also breaking bread with them to celebrate the Lord's Supper. Supper, that is, and not lunch or breakfast.

Think about it. To think that they met on Saturday night makes a lot of sense. Sunday was a workday. The Jews took Saturday off. Having supper together at the end of the sabbath would fit well into the Jewish and prostelyte culture of the prostelytes from the synagoguges.

Imagine what would happen if they had meetings on Sunday morning, a workday. Could the slaves get time off in the morning, when they were supposed to be working? Could hired servants get time off? there were a lot of people who wer enot mighty and noble in the church in those days. The likeliehood that the church had their meetings on Saturday night, and other nights as well, makes a lot more sense, imo, than thinking these earliest churches met on Sunday morning.

The 10 o'clock service came into Protestantism becuase Luther liked later services so he could stay up late talking theology over beer in the tavern, according to _The Open Church._ (Pretty good read, but the history is not 100% accurate, so I don't know if that is exactly true.) The RCC met at dawn. I suppose it's possible that some early saints met before the sun came up as well. But the fact that they ate the _Lord's Supper_ leads me to believe they likely met in the evening.

Come to think of it, the ciesta in the middle of the day might have made a good time to meet. Some think Paul held his daily lectures during this time, because of some wording from the passage, though this probably wasn't a regular church meeting, but rather a time for Paul to teach, evangelize, etc. Christians can meet at any time. I seem to recall reading in a secondary source that Justin Martyr said that Christians met basically whenever and wherever they could. (Can anyone verify this and give me a reference?)

As far as the resurrection is concerned, keep in mind that the women came to the tomb as it was beginning to dawn on the first day fo the week. For all we now, Jsus may have arisen before sunrise or it might have been right around the time of sunrise. But sunrise doesn't mark the beginning of the day in Biblical reckoning.

think about meeting times this way- suppose there is a church planter in a country which is predominantly non-Christian. Suppose this church planter has been programmed by tradition to think that all 'main' church meetings must be on Sunday. He can plant one church at a time, or maybe two or three if he holds three meetings on Sunday.

If he realizes that 'the first day of the week' referred to Saturday night as well. Now he can have a meeting on Saturday night! So he starts another church as well on Saturday night.

On Saturday afternoon, he can go across town to the house of a believer who hosts the neighbors he has evangelized for a meeting for eating the Lord's Supper and mutual edification. Then, he goes to another place on Sunday mornign and does the same thing.

If this minister of the Gospel realizes that it is okay to esteem every day alike, he could start churches that meet during the week as weel. If they want, they can have meetings on the weekend when he is not around. During initial stages, he may be able ot have other ministers go help these new church plants.

If this man is really bogged down in the traditional idea that a church meeting involves on professional minister preaching a sermon, then his ministry will be limited until he can find trained proffesional ministers to replace him. When these ministers are found, he can leave his chruch plants and go on to plant other churches like this. He can go back from time to time to visit the old church plants and keep in touch.

But if he is not bogged down in this tradition, he can teach and train believers in the new churches plants to edify one another, and train up new ministers of the Gospel, from _within_ the congregations, he can leave the churches alone during some meetings, and go one to start new small meetings in other homes throughout the area he ministers in. Like Paul and Barnabas, he can leave churches behind without elders at first, and go back to help appoint elders after the men from within the congregations have matured to meet the Biblical qualifications. He can send other ministers of the Gospel around to strenghten these churches as he has needs.

If a church planter thinks that the only 'real church' meeting is on Sunday morning, this can create real problems in his ministry. He can only have one 'real church' meeting a week. If he does have weekly meetings, then the people in these meetings may get the idea that these meetings are just 'fellowships' or 'Bible studies' but not 'real church.' The church planter, in a meeting on whatever day of the week, should teach the people how to have church, how to love one another, how to edify each other, and how to obey other commands of Christ. He should show them a Biblical and culturally relavent way of eating the Lord's Supper together, and get them set up to meet without him. They need to learn to stand on their own, with the grace God has given them, rather than passively depending on a minister to minister to them while they are silent and do nothing.

Church doesn't have to meet on Sunday morning to be real church. Church doesn't have to meet in a church building to be real church. We don't have to have tiny wafers- the pattern in the Bible is to the eat bread and drink the fruit of the vine in, or as a part of, a meal. A church doesn't ahve to gather and hear just one man preach a sermon, because the Bible tells us to exhort one another.

-- Anonymous, April 26, 2001

I was about to mention that, Link. The fact that to the Jewish mindset, the day begins at sundown the previous evening. So Saturday evening worship, to a Jew (such as Jesus and the apostles, et.al.) would really be Sunday! Why are we so presumptuous as to assume that God must now bow to our western calendar which starts and ends at twelve midnight? How absurd!

You wanna get really radical? Our church has a Wednesday evening service for the youth! *gasp!* And we have about 30 teens attending it right now.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Danny,

I don't see a lick of scriptural evidence for your argument that the Bible calls the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' Could you produce some evidence.

I've seen some SDA's try to argue that 'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day' refers to the Sabbath, rather than the first day of the week. But, from what I've read, this is the same phrase translated elsehwere as 'the day of the Lord' which is a translation of a phrase that shows up throughout the OT.

In Acts 20, the saints gathered on the first day the of the week. The text doesn't say if they gathered several times a week and this happened to be the first day of the week, or if they were gathering because it was the day Christ rose from the dead, or they were gathering on that day because Paul was scheduled to take a boat the next day and they wanted a last chance to see him. How can you make a 'pattern' out of a single incident?

You may be able to come up with loads of documentation from patristic writings about the Lord's day. I don't know if it's unanimous, because I scanned through an EG White book an SDA sent me, and noticed something about some early churches meeting on the Sabbath. Besides, you don't follow the patristic writings on all of your beliefs. I thought you were a fundamentalist who thought all doctrine should come from scripture anyway. Patristic writings show us that there is an early church tradition of meeting on the first day of the week. Let us recognize it as tradition, for that is what it is.

Paul gives us doctrine about esteeming one day above another. One man esteemeth one day above another. Another man esteemeth every day alike. let every man be persuaded in his own mind. Paul was apparently one of those who realized that every day could be esteemed alike.

But we have to meet sometime. Meeting in the morning on the first day of the week is a tradition. The scripture doesn't command us to meet at that time. it certainly doesn't inhibit the liberty of Christians who want to meet on some other day. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the early Jeiwsh Christians had their meetings on the Sabbath.

Could you produce some primary evidence for the statement that the early Christians met on Sunday night. In Genesis 1 we see that there was everening and there was morning, the Xth day. The Biblical day starts at sundown and ends at sundown. if the believers met on Sunday night after sundown, they were meeting on the second day of the week by Biblical reckoning.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

Danny: I agree with you when you say that "I have a problem with a service that replaces what the Scriptures clearly teach as the Lord's Day." I disagree with you when you say "There is not a single historical incident of Christians gathering on Saturday nights for corporate worship." How can you prove this? Considering that to the Jews and Christians of the first century, what we call Saturday night was Sunday to them, certainly if they met at this time they would write that they were meeting on Sunday. You also say, "according to Paul....they weren't attending Sat. evening worship services." I know you were mocking about the pagan things the Corinthians were doing, but seriously, how can you prove that Paul ever spoke against attending a service on a Saturday evening? Especially since, to Paul, who was a devout Jew, Saturday evening was really the beginning of Sunday and therefore perfectly acceptable as a part of "The Lord's Day"? It would be far more incongruous for a Jew to meet on what we would call Sunday evening, for to them, it would really be Monday!

Link, you write, "I don't see a lick of scriptural evidence for your argument that the Bible calls the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' Could you produce some evidence. " John refers to a day called "the Lord's day" at Revelation 1:10. It would make sense, since Jesus was raised to life on a Sunday, that this would be "His" day. In Acts 20:7, Luke writes, "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread." It would seem to have been the common practice by this time to meet on Sunday for corporate worship. Actually, this was probably after sundown on what we would call Saturday, which explains why Paul talked until midnight. (It would make far better sense if Paul spoke from sundown to midnight than if he spoke from the '10 am service' until midnight, and would be very congruous with traditional Jewish observance.) 1 Corinthians 16:2 also mentions that offerings for those in need should be brought on the first day of the week, further showing that this day was indeed "the Lord's Day." Constantine's edict (Eusebius' "The Life of the Blessed Emperor Constantine, Book IV, Ch. XVIII) was merely making "official" what had already been unofficially accepted since the first century.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2001

John Wilson,

maybe a Greek expert can comment on this. I've read that the verse about letting every man 'lay by him in store' on the first day of the week is a reference to every man saving up money on the first day of the week, since that was, the argument goes, payday.

Of course, the that there be no offerings when I come does fit with the idea of a Sunday morning meeting.

As for John being in the spirit on the Lord's day, that phrase can also be translated 'on the day of the Lord.' That has a very different ring to it. Considering that it is apocalyptic literature, isn't it likely that the 'day of the Lord' is the same apocalyptic 'day of the LORD' in the OT?

Also, this passage doesn't say that the day of the Lord was Sunday. I saw an SDA arguing that John was in the Sirit on the Sabbath before I was familiar with the fac that 'the Lord's day' is antoher rendering for 'the day of the Lord.' How can you really argue with that. The Bible doesn't tell us WHICH DAY is 'the Lord's day' in this passage, so you can't prove anything from that.

As far as doctrine is concerned, Paul approved the man who esteemed every day alike. Every day is the Lord's. This is the day that the Lord hath made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! God owns all the days, not just one.

The church may have met on the first day of the week (ahem, possible Saturday night in Jersualem right after the sabbath ended- makes sense) from the beginnings of the church in Jerusalem for all I know. It's possible. But the NT doesn't _teach_ that we must meet on the first day of the week, and it certainly doesn't teach that meetings on other days of the week are any less 'church meetings' than Sunday mornign meetings.

The Jeruslaem church met from house to house, breaking bread. I'd imagine they met more than once a week, even if they did make a point of meeting on the first day of the week. The author of Hebrews said to exhort one another daily. There is more to Christian community life than just meeting once a week. If meeting on the first day of the week is required, and it is doctrine, then there sure is a glaring absence of teaching in the NT. To teach as doctrine that the first day of the week is the Lord's day and therefore that we must have our special weekly meeting on Sunday morning as doctrine is to teach church tradition as doctrine, rather than the Bible.

meeting on the first day of the week is an old tradition. I think it's a good tradition to keep up, since it does remind us of Jesus' resurrection. Keeping vertain Christian feasts is an old tradition. The Resurrection Day vigil is a very old tradition. It's fine to keep these things. Some peole may have weak consciences and think it is a sin to meet at times other than the first day of the week for the main meeting instead of the first day of the week. They may feel guilty for missing a midnight Easter meeting. Wer shouldn't condemn such people who have weak consciences.

But it is good for Christian leaders not to have weak consciences and realize that its okay to esteem every day alike, that it's okay to eat meat, drink alcoholic wine, etc. as long as we do not sin.

And if a church planter is dealing with a group of new converts from another religion, they usually don't have these same weak conscience issues to worry about. So if he has a meeting with them on Saturday morning as a main meeting, for example, then their consciences will nto genrally be offended.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2001

"How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, {which say} that it must happen this way?"

NASB Matthew 26:55 At that time Jesus said to the crowds, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me as {you would} against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize Me.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EVERY DAY I USED TO SIT IN THE TEMPLE TEACHING AND YOU DID NOT SEIZE ME.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DAY BY DAY CONTINUING WITH ONE MIND IN THE TEMPLE...

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NASB

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

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...EVERY DAY I USED TO SIT IN THE TEMPLE TEACHING YOU...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NASB

MATTHEW 26:56

26:56 "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

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NASB

Mark 14: 48-50

14:48 And Jesus said to them, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest Me, as {you would} against a robber? 14:49 "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but {this has} {taken place} to fulfill the Scriptures."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"EVERY DAY I WAS WITH YOU IN THE TEMPLE TEACHING,..."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 14:50 And they all left Him and fled.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NASB

Luke 19: 47-48 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple; but the chief priests and the scribes and the leading men among the people were trying to destroy Him,

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AND HE WAS TEACHING DAILY IN THE TEMPLE...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 19:48 and they could not find anything that they might do, for all the people were hanging on to every word He said.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ NASB Acts 5

5:41 So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for {His} name. 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept F135 right on teaching and preaching Jesus {as} the Christ.

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Some keep certain days and some keep every day.

We are not to judge each other in matters of Holy Days.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2001