Have you ever heard of this site? Interesting that they have such a "green" name.....Orweillian!

check it out:

http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/about.htm

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

Answers

No, sheepish, I had not heard of them. So, I went and looked. You may say I am hasty to judgement, but I think they're highly suspect. The fact that it is a "grassroots organization created by the Western FUELS Association" (the first thing I read on their home page) made me suspicious, but I thought maybe I was jumping to conclusions. So I clicked on "World Climate Report" and then "What's Hot".

First there is the article about models for insect increase should the climate become wetter and warmer. I quote: "Insect-specific models have been developed in which the range of insects is linked to climate conditions such as temperature and precipitation. For example, malaria is endemic in the tropics, where it's warm and wet. It's logical to think that these conditions are ideal for mosquitoes, which are malaria vectors. So temperature and moisture give us some parameters for predicting mosquito populations.

Yet there's a good reason why that approach is wrong. Mosquitoes (and malaria) are not abuzz in the midlatitudes of the United States and Europe—and that's not because the climate there isn't amenable, but because those countries do a marvelous job of killing them. Pesticides and sanitation are superior modern conveniences. Therefore, human intervention wrecks the model!"

Oh, swell, they think that pesticides are superior modern conveniences. As more and more of us become unable to tolerate such things. But hey, IF increased CO2 emissions makes the climate hotter and wetter and we get more bugs and mosquitos, we'll just blast them with more pesticides.

Soldiering on, I read some more. Following that, further down the page, was an article about "Southern Glacier Species Thriving". They list a bunch of animals that are thriving and claim it is due to warming of the environment, but offer no proof that is the cause. For instance: "Fur seals. Almost extinct 50 years ago, fur seals now number in the tens of thousands, with 28,000 adults and 1,000 youngsters at last count." This couldn't be due to all the efforts of environmentalists to prevent the slaughter of fur seals? I don't know which, if either, is the reason for the increase of the seals, but warming climate does not automatically equal increase of seals. No scientific investigation of the reasons for the increase is presented. Just claimed to be due to a warming climate.

So, I won't claim unequivocably that they're wrong about everything, but if the rest of it is more of the same, my opinion would be that you can't take their word for anything. Also, I am of the opinion that CO2 emissions will somehow change our climate, though I don't think anyone REALLY knows how. If it is for the much worse, by the time it is undeniable, it will be way too late to change it back!

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

Well, I thought it would be food for thought...kind of like CheezeWhiz is food for your body....

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

Oh yeah. I found out about it via its incorporation in an email that was forwarded to me. Some of it read:

"Dear ,

Don't allow Radical Environmentalists to continue winning the public relations battle!

Their propaganda and unscientific arguments go virtually unchallenged in the media and in classrooms. You and I have a big stake in reversing this.

Conservatives and industry are demonized as destroyers of the planet. The big winners are those who want to use the coercive power of government to force a distorted way of living upon us.

Conservatives want clean water, clean air and a beautiful environment just as much as everyone else. But you wouldn't know it if you listened to the radical environmentalist propaganda."

....so naturally, I was just a tad bit curious as to whether or not anyone had heard of them before and whether or not their science had merit. I'm not a scholar...

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

I had a quick look. What I see is a front for "Business as usual" proponents. There's a lot of misleading information. The one that jumps out at me is the graphic of CO2 concentration vs time. In reality it should be shown as a curve (a scary one too - can't locate a web site right now), since per capita energy use has increased exponentially, as has population. It is true that there is a CO2 fertilization effect, but the CO2 consumed by the biota is a small fraction of the emission. The rest accumulates in the atmosphere.

-- Anonymous, April 23, 2001

Tonight I was indulging in my nightly entertainment -- listening to the BBC News to find out what is going on in the rest of the world outside our self absorption. I heard an interesting story about the opening of the city-wide fishing tournament in Stockholm, Sweden. That sounds like some kind of a wacky event, on a par with milk-jug regattas and snipe hunting, but it's a real event.

The city of Stockholm has such great state of the art water treatment facilities for their sewage, that they have a fishing tournament that is a major tourist event. The city waters are so clean that they have salmon living in them, the fish are safe to eat, and the waters are safe to swim in. (the report went on to report on what was happening in Brussels by contrast, where they are pumping the raw sewage from a city of a million people directly into the river Senna)

I thought there were a few problems with Sweden when I went there on a family reunion, but I've got to wonder how it is that a country that doesn't have NEARLy the resources that the U.S. has can manage this and we can't. Or make that "won't"

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

An example of the downside of free speech....

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Thr Right's version of "conservation". When they say they are conservationists,not environmental wackos,this is what they are refering to. Sound familiar?

These groups have been around for some time now, to filter off people from the real work at hand. Makes people think they are doing some good, when they are instead just urinating into a stiff breeze.

JMHO,of course!

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Julie, Sweden seems to have found the right blend between free enterprise and socialism. It is a forward thinking country with well educated people, enlightened politicians, sound economic policy, and a willingness to deal with pollution. They are world leaders when it comes to environmental policy and have been instrumental in forging many of the international emissions agreements.

A swedish friend of ours once told us that Sweden has one of the highest suicide rates in the world - not because things are bad there, but because they realise how bad things are in many other places. They feel pain that they can't do more to solve the worlds problems!

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Here's a site for the real atmospheric CO2 trend:

http://royal.okanagan.bc.ca/mpidwirn/atmosphereandclimate/CO2gas.html

Sorry, I don't know how to make a hot link!

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Thanks for the link! I looked at the graph. Also, I was just checking out the Greening site again. There is so much information there, it's going to take me a long time to get through it. Seems on first glance to be a counterpoint to the Kyoto (what is it, accords, treaty, ??) since I've gleaned issues with C02 and U.S. Government policy making. Interesting...

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001

Interesting reasoning about the suicides in Sweden, David. I always thought it was because of Seasonal Affective Disorder, with the very long, very dark winters (for anyone who doesn't realize, Sweden is farther north than most of the US). Or maybe it because of the unseasoned white food . . . No, wait, they LIKE it that way! [grimace]

The cost of living in Sweden is very, very high. Their policies cost a great deal. I'm not criticizing them, just commenting. I don't think such policies would be accepted here. Especially since the middle and lower classes would be expected to pay for them -- there always seem to be loopholes for the truly wealthy.

-- Anonymous, April 24, 2001