Saturday is going to be a battle of two mediocre sides. Important to us in the north-east but irrelevant to the rest of the country.

I am afraid saturday is going to be something of a high point for you. Not because you will win, although you might. But because it is the best Newcastle side you will see for some time. Your finances are in a much worse state than many of you realise. It is very surprising that the Stock Exchange did not take Douglas Hall to task over his transfer funds remark. I believe that was serious misrepresentation of the club's true financial plight, all of which is available in public documents. Your difficulty is that you have sold forward large portions of your future income and have already spent the proceeds.

All the summer will see is Dyer and Solano leaving. The worst news for ages is Man Utd coming in for Dyer. If they offer cash the board will have to take it whereas YBR was banking on getting Michael Bridges. At a push you might get Lee Clark but that can be the ultimate of your ambition.

All you can hope is that YBR does not throw in the towell at the end of this season. Any reasonable manager is going to want more concrete assurances over finace than the board can give them. YBR really does love the club and hopes, against his better judgement, that somehow the finaces will be sorted by summer 2002. The problems are too big and almost certainly they won't. All that good man will have achieved is to defer the evil day by 12 months as the team slips further and further away from the vision that Sir John Hall and Kevin Keegan had.

Sunderland are not in a great position. In particular Peter Reid may not be the right manager. However, their financial position is one of the strongest in the premiership. They have not sold forward £1 of future income so whatever comes belongs to the club. The academy and training facilities will put your neighbours even futher ahead of you.

Put it this way. Consider that the two clubs are about equal on the field right now. Given the different financial psotions, it would take a miracle for Newcastle to be in a better position on the field in two years than Sunderland. Miracles do happen or you find a Martin O'Neill or you do an Ipwpsich, But most of the time they don't.

Your friend

The occassional mackem lurker

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Answers

You're spot on about daft Douggie, the man's an arse of the first order. Your obervations on the financial plight of the club are less accurate however; the 'debt' has been factored in on all financial projections and is well under control. Remember that there's another club who have an infamously 'crippling debt', they play in Madrid and haven't done too badly recently.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

The financial stability is measured commonly on wages to turnover ratio. Given the fact that our wages have been significantly reduced and our turnover has been significantly increased in the past year I'm not worried at all.

Sunlung have done well to get where they are at the moment but money will need to be spent if they want to maintain their status or indeed improve on that. Reid has worked miracles on the budget and his signings have looked good but he is still ostracised for not winning the Championship, which makes me laugh.

If Reidy goes expect your club to falter because it is down to him that he has got your team to perform above their level so much this season. Your not going to compete with the best until you start to play some decent football.

The loss of Quinn has highlighted your dependance on the angular direct ball and the recent results show that. Couple that with the amount of suspensions your scuffling midfield pick up, which has in truth knackered your season and it isn't looking too rosy for you either.

You got to second then the suspensions came and Quinny was knackered, look at the effects. Serious investment in the side and a change of playing style will ensue and that change won't work in a season.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Well I for one agree with OML on some things said here, other than the financials which I am unsure of.

Like all of us here I have a built-in allergy to all things Mackem, however SFC have shown us the way in a few things recently. Their stadium is a site(!) better than SJP - it looks like a stadium rather than a few bits clagged together - and from what I understand from independents the training facilities and youth policy are up with the best. It seems like a 'proper' foundation has been set at SoL, rather than our way of facilities playing catch-up with our supposed successes on the pitch.

You seem a bright, intelligent chap at times OML. I wish we had more opposition on here, if only to get perspective, so would welcome you as an interesting foil, but NOT anonymously. Get some balls, come out and give us a name, and put forward your views as much as you like. Even if I don't agree in the future, I'll respect you.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Some valid points raised there OML. However your insite into the financial aspects has made your identity come clear to me.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Not convinced on the finance argument.

I think the club has a smaller debt than me, at least in proportion to their income. NUFC have a turnover of around £50m, and long term debts of £54m. (The £50m coming from the latest 6 month figures, the £54m from last years company accounts). Now if I go and try and get a mortgage I'd get offered 3 times my annual pay. NUFC have taken one times their annual 'pay'.

All Premiership clubs are going to benefit from the £20m+ per season from SKY starting next season. If we don't spend a penny of it on new players that would pay off all debt and leave £10m as profit. Where do you see the extra money going at Sunderland ?

The cash coming in to both Newcastle and Sunderland must be comparable as the grounds are roughly the same size and the marketing should be similar. Newcastle have wasted their money over the last few seasons on some poor transfer dealings, but at least we can see where it has gone. The same amount of money at Sunderland has seemed to have gone into Murray and Reid's pockets. Reid buying another 28000 shares to get the big dividend coming up soon, or buying for the long term ? I somehow see a conflict of interests there. The less he spends the bigger the profit the bigger his dividend. What other reason can there be for two years in a row getting yourself into a European place and then refusing to invest for the future ?

If I was seeing lots of Sunderland youth coming through I could understand it, but there isn't really. Neither Newcastle nor Sunderland can claim to have a Joe Cole or a Michael Owen or even an Alan Smith to build the future around. (We may have something good in Ameobi, and longer in Chopra, but they aren't world beaters).

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Funny enough, I was discussing grounds yesterday evening at work with a Manchester fan. Although he doesn't think much of their dilapidated place at Maine Road, he quite likes t "oppos" place at OT. His reason being that "it looks like a football ground, not a manufactured place like Sunderland". He went on to say he really hated the SoS. Nowhere to park, difficult to get to and no atmosphere.

Interesting - totally un-provoked and un-solicited. He's not been to SJP since the rebuild so no comments about that.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Uncomfortably close to the truth OML! As you suggest, DH is a liability as a Director of a public company - however, it is a public company being run as a private company with DH and FS doing precisely as they see fit.
We are indeed massively in debt. I believe this is a manageable situation providing we stay in the PL and attract substantial TV revenues. However, if we ever slipped into the Nationwide I feel we would be in serious financial trouble.

I also feel you are correct in your assessment of our ability to invest heavily in playing staff. The recent burblings by management are most likely just a blatant attempt to sell season tickets. However, this is setting expectations among the fans that could rebound badly on them if they now fail to deliever a couple of major signings.

Frankly, I'd like to see everyone associated with NUFC accept that we have overspent in the past, and get down to building a a system and a squad that can deliver success over the long term.

I actually believe SAFC would be hugely mistaken in getting rid of PR, as they have already done a lot of the hard work in laying solid foundations of the type I'm outlining for NUFC. As you suggest, because of this they are strong financially, and could now go out and spend big on a couple of top players who could really make the difference.

As for Saturday, as you suggest not that much between the teams - as in truth there hasn't been in the last three matches - and it could go either way depending on who does the biz on the day. However, I might just slash my wrists if your lot were to win 2-1 again! Fancy a 1-1 draw myself - leaving us 6 points behind you with 2 games in hand, and at least something to play for for the rest of this miserable season.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Anyone remember exactly what the predicted season ticket income for the 2 clubs was? it was posted on here some time ago....as far as I remember we're (over-charging) raking in about 4 times as much as them even though our capacity isn't that much greater..

We're in a far better position to pay off our debt than barber pole boy thinks...

I do wish they'd sort the effing training facilities out though...

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

clarky, excuse my pedantry and I'm certainly not taking you to task, but, if it's a 1-1 draw we'll still be 7 points behind them, with 2 games in hand.

I agree we still have A LOT to play for - I call it GEORDIE PRIDE!!!

I'm gannin' for 2-1 to the Toon.

Your bud Bud

;-)

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Bud - didn't you realise Clarky's using a new method of counting. The home team doesn't get any points for a draw. However, I thought the away team should get 2!

As he says, re the match, there hasn't been a lot between the teams when they've played recently. I wasn't able to get to either SJP game but saw the SoS one on beamback. IMHO, we were the better team in that game, and had justice been donem we'd have won it. As it was, Makin (?) remained on the pitch while Sandro broke his leg. As it was, we fell to the usual sucker punch. Big ball down the middle and nodded down for the runner. Bah, humbug. If we fall to that again, we deserve to lose.

As for the water-polo, well, theat wasn't really a football match. Had it been any other game than a derby, it would have been called off. But the authorities couldn't change there plans to accommodate 36,000 p!$$ed off (and on) fans leaving early. The game simply had to be completed.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

I think it was McCann not Makin, it's difficult to tell one clogger from another

but talking of Pistone do you see him nut Dickov last week, in the face, when he was looking at him, very un Italian :0)

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Whoops, sorry about that Bud - forgot that the other team get one point for the draw also!! And yes it was McCann who snapped Pistone's leg - with a disgraceful tackle from behind that didn't even occasion a yellow card.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

You spelt T - O - W - E - L wrong

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Just a quick reply. I think you are all being fooled by statutory accounts. This is what most analysts base their reports on. However, the financial accounting of all football clubs is appalling. A lot of their expenditure, assets and liabilities are off balance sheet. Technically they are doing nothing wrong as they are in line with current accounting standards. However, it masks the true position of most, possibly all, clubs. Newcastle has sold huge chunks of future income. In plain terms this means that a lot of the money coming through the door does not belong to the club. That is why, even if the club increases its already very impressive income per capita from its pool of supporters (both actual and potential) very little is going to feed through to the playing (or even training) field.

Wonkey – nice guess. I think I know who you mean. But wrong.

On the footballing side, please try to be a bit more realistic. Ignoring the water polo, the last two games have seen you on top for the first twenty minutes and then running backwards for the remaining 70. If we get anything like that on Saturday, there will be only one result. It looks as though Niall Quinn will be fit. You are possibly the last team left in the premiership that does not know how to deal with him. It is sad for Sunderland that we still need him so much but I’m sure no Sunderland supporter will be bothered by that if we have three more points at 7 o’clock on Saturday.

Finally, thank you for the towel. Very useful.

Your friend

OML

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

I'd just like to applaud ALL of you for having a discussion and not descending into abuse.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

OML,

Forgot to say in my earlier post that despite our rather precarious financial position, I still expect the Toon to spend say £12-16 million on players before the start of next season - hopefully without selling Dyer.

I'll be a little surprised if anyone moved to buy Dyer before he demonstrates his form and fitness again. However, if someone offered upwards of £15 million for him, the Toon might indeed find it difficult to say no - irrespective of what they have been saying publicly - and indeed if he was offered say £50k per week as part of that deal by a big Club playing in the CL, he might also find it difficult to say no.

I admit to having been a little uncertain about Dyer, but there is no doubt that we've missed him massively since he dropped out through injury, and I would now hate to see him leave.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Just a pity you can't behave in a similar way Macbeth when you visit other sites.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

OML! Why are you trying to antagonise Macbeth? You'll lose whatever respect you have on here if you continue this vein of abuse. You've started a line of discussion which seems to be getting a fair response, abuse free argument and points, so feel free to continue. Macbeth is one of us and we shouldn't have to listen to some attack on one of our own in our own home. Apart from that, carry on.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

It's all water off a duck's back, so to speak.

I'm more than happy for OML to come on here and provoke a discussion, in much the same way LR does. Lets be honest the nicey niceness we've shown to LR today would have been unheard of a few years ago. We must be getting soft :0) I know its a silly comparison but could you imagine saying nice things to OML if he was bemoaning Sunderland only winning the Premiership for the 7th time and being knocked out of the CL in the quarter finals ?

OML seems a bright and articualte guy, for some reason he doesn't like me, I can live with that.

Now what about discussing why both our managers seem intent on not playing a left winger when they both have one available ????

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

I thought Sunderland bought the SOS from MFI???

The debts are mainly the stadium, which is being paid off in a loan over 20 years or something, just like a mortgage on a house as has already been mentioned in this thread.

Sunderland fans never cease to amaze me with their continuing whinging though. Not only do they moan about Newcastle on an NUFC board but they moan about their own team as well.

The Mackems put their season ticket prices at rock bottom to try and attract some new fans, and then the fans complain when they can't afford the big players. What is Sunderland's record transfer purchase by the way? Newcastle's financial situation should also take into account our wealth. Some of our players could be very sellable assets. Dyer and Solano could both be sold for well over £10m if we were desperate for money. Who could Sunderland sell for that much? Phillips possibly, but the munchkin now looks seemingly like a one season wonder.

Even Marcelino would sell for about £4m in Spain, where he has a good reputation. The same can be said about Read Madrid to an extent. They may have debts of over £300m, but they have some of the most expensive players in the world at their club, who could fetch a lot of money. Their problems are deeper than ours though, because the average ticket price is only around £4 per game as the Spanish average wage for the working man is very low. So they rely heavily on the Champions League for their revenue.

I am glad that Sunderland aren't going to Europe now though (at least it doesn't look like it). Their long ball one dimensional style play would be defended against easily in Europe and would be a disgrace to what has been a fairly strong European challenge from England.

Anyway may the best team win on Saturday

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

>>>Anyway may the best team win on Saturday

I fully expect us to! There's a score to settle on Saturday. And there's futures to play for.

1-2 would be nice ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

Wonkey -: me and you both , no requirement for a deep penetration engineer, Cracker profile and a couple of phone calls and Oh My Lawd is laid bare, not a pretty sight mind, I initially stated that I due to my faith would ignore the sh-t stirrer who has started to play the good-guy , bad guy role while utilising McBeth as his focal point.

I do not give a damm about the pen pushing geek but from the comfort zone behind his keyboard , using a false email , he without balls calls my friends on here `spineless hypocrites` ,I take umbrage. so pal bit of advice from an auld hand , stop digging a hole that will give you no way out, savvy.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2001

>>Loony Toon / seymour complains about my allegations about Macbeth. Fair enough, it's not something I can prove to you.

This admission from the Orrible Makkem Lurch says it all for me. If you've got nowt but guesswork then you've got nothing pal. So give it a rest with the Macbeth bollox - and don't presume friendship till you've earned it.

I still say let the sad fecker post whatever s/he wants. Just don't reply - unless of course you want to encourage more of the same.

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

This mackem appears to be somewhat two faced. He/She/It posts some interesting opinions on football and there are a few threads which have been all the richer for it. And yet there is this MacBeth issue. I wouldn't mind so much if it was remotely interesting. But it's dull. Really DULL!!!



-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

Nick - I disagree with your comments on blunderlans stadium of ***** being better than St. James'. Have you been there?
The SOS has been chucked together it still has unfinshed geet big bolts sticking out of the walls . Yes it has potential but it certainly no where near as good as St James or even the Reebok.

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001

The Reebok is a class stadium indeed. Hope they make it up this season so I can stick it up the in-laws :-) Although maybe not my 6'4" brother in law.

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2001