Bush backs off spending $100m a year on forests By Anne E. Kornblut, Globe Staff, 4/10/2001

WASHINGTON - Breaking his second campaign promise on the environment, President Bush has abandoned a pledge to invest $100 million a year in a program for rain forest conservation, according to the budget he released yesterday.

Bush announced in a foreign policy speech last August that he planned to greatly expand the Tropical Forest Conservation Act, which allows poor countries to restructure their debt in exchange for protecting the disappearing forests.

''Expanding the aims of the Tropical Forest Conservation Act, I will ask Congress to provide $100 million to support the exchange of debt relief for the protection of tropical forests,'' Bush said in the speech, delivered in Miami on Aug. 25.

But in the new federal budget, Bush has arranged for just $13 million for the program. Even that sum isn't new funding; instead, it is diverted from the Agency for International Development.

''They've zeroed it out,'' said Debbie Reed, legislative affairs director for the National Environmental Trust.

Administration officials defended the move as practical, given the problems with the program, which did not spend all its $13 million budget last year. According to Mitch Daniels, director of the Office of Management and Budget, the program, launched in 1999, has had ''real practical problems finding a place in the world where an actual swap can take place.''

So far, $5 million has been spent on such a swap in Bangladesh. Another $1 million was used last year for the costs of launching and administering the program, and deals are currently in the works with El Salvador, Thailand, and Belize, according to specialists familiar with the bill.

Asked what Bush had meant by his campaign pledge to spend $100 million a year, Daniels said the president ''meant $100 million as quickly as it can be used.''

''If it makes you feel better, we could put $100 million there, and then $94 million would be sitting in an unexpended account a year from now, if the experience of last year did not change,'' Daniels said.

The broken pledge has an extra sting for US Representative Rob Portman, a Republican from Ohio and a close ally of Bush throughout the campaign. Portman was a chief sponsor of the bill that established the program in 1998, along with Senator Richard G. Lugar, Republican of Indiana. According to sources familiar with the program, both Portman and Lugar have for months been asking the White House for full funding for the rain-forest program.

Bush introduced his expansion of the program at a critical time in the campaign, one week after the Democratic convention, as Vice President Al Gore's numbers were sharply on the rise. Attacking Gore for what he described as a weak commitment to the issue, Bush presented himself as the more practical and compassionate steward of the environment, proposing to ''use the power of debt reduction to relieve poverty and protect the resources that sustain life in the Americas.''

''We will link debt reduction and the conservation of tropical forests,'' Bush said. ''These forests affect the air we breathe, the food we eat, medicines that cure disease, and are home to more than half of earth's animal and plant species.''

-- Our Resident Liar and Hypocrite (you@were.duped), April 10, 2001

Answers

Ah, fuck you. You dint give a shit about the daily lies and gross deceptions of the Klintoon administration when they were in office shitting all over the constitution every hour of their occupancy. So why give a damn about Bush "lieing?"

Answer is that Bush aint a earth worshipping communist like pretty boy here and his stalinist fuhrer Klintoon, so these stupid fucks are gonna scream hysterically until their lungs bleed. Bush is ignoring their sacred cows of socialism. Excellent!

Its true. when out of power you liberal socialist fucks go absolutely crazy and its funny to watch.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 10, 2001.

"Answer is that Bush aint a earth worshipping communist..."

OK. Fair enough. But why did he try to fool people by saying he was one during the campaign? Is that honest?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 10, 2001.

Ah, fuck you. You dint give a shit about the daily lies and gross deceptions of the Klintoon administration when they were in office shitting all over the constitution every hour of their occupancy. So why give a damn about Bush "lieing?" Clinton did not lie daily and make gross deceptions. You cannot name any because it was not done. All of this crap you claim Clinton did is nothing more than a bunch of negitive "propaganda" that was blatently aimed at Clinton from the time he first won the office. Your arguement is pathetic, if you believe it you are a fool, if you don't you are scum.

So why give a damn about Bush "lieing?"
What the hell kind of mentality is that? You admit he lies now and use two wrongs make a right as justification for it? Is that the kind of thinking that this country is based on these days? Someone goes around accusing Joe Blow of stealing a car so you go out and steal one ? Do you ;ive you life like the beliefs you spew on this board? You should be ashamed of yourself.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 10, 2001.

Truthbeknown:

You spew just the sort of claptrap I expected to see with the influx of people from SLEZ. You commit the simplest of errors in debate by countering a wrong by saying "well the last president did it".

I am not sure where all your vitriol comes from; your "My way or the highway" attitude is extremely un-american. Your attack on a point of view other than yours is so skewed that it cannot be taken seriously. Liberal/socialists/communists all have RIGHTS in this country EQUAL to your own, and the more you go on spouting your contempt for the opposing point of view, the more unpatriotic you show yourself.

A true american, who believes in our constitution, who believes in what this country was based on, would engage the opposite side in civil debate, and not just vomit verbal abuse on them.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 10, 2001.

LN & Cherri,

The key paragraph for me in this piece:

Administration officials defended the move as practical, given the problems with the program, which did not spend all its $13 million budget last year. According to Mitch Daniels, director of the Office of Management and Budget, the program, launched in 1999, has had "real practical problems finding a place in the world where an actual swap can take place."

Bush screwed up by speaking about a current government program of which he apparently knew little with regards to its inner workings. Perhaps an advisor suggested the figure of $100 million. Promising such a large increase in appropriations towards this program was, in hindsight, quite stupid.

I don't regard this a lie. I can't possibly know what went on in his mind and those around him.

I credit the president for backing off his promise once he realized the program was already over financed during the Clinton administration. Why throw more money at it without a serious, functional game plan on how to spend it effectively?

Is Bush allowed to make mistakes, change opinions and act based upon increased awareness of his actual authority, real life potential effectiveness of the presidency, and increased information available to him now that he has assumed office? Is this not reasonable?

As I rarely engage in political discussions here, I'll state for sake of clarity (and to nip in the bud potential attacks by salivating anons) I did not vote for Bush.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 10, 2001.

And President Bush would comment only that, "I did not have sex with that $13 million."

-- Oh you guys (you@just.kill.me), April 10, 2001.

"Clinton did not lie daily and make gross deceptions. You cannot name any because it was not done. All of this crap you claim Clinton did is nothing more than a bunch of negitive "propaganda" that was blatently aimed at Clinton from the time he first won the office."

Yeah right! Your a true believer arent you? You wanna tell me that Klintoons little finger waving "I did not have sex with that woman..." wasnt a boldfaced lie to the American people? All the chinese funny money bullshit that was denied, denied and denied wasnt lies? You wanna tell me that his purjury under oath to a grand jury was just "propaganda"? You wanna tell me that the judge that cited him for contempt was just a made-up story by the GOP?

If so you are a total fucking nitwit...

"You admit he lies now and use two wrongs make a right as justification for it? Is that the kind of thinking that this country is based on these days?"

Hey get a clue, your hero Klintoon set that standard on a daily basis, showcasing the mistakes of past presidents to absolve himself of all the nefarius shit he was doing, or didnt you hear when he and his spokespeople dug up the ghosts of Ike, Nixon and Reagan when slick got caught?

"You commit the simplest of errors in debate by countering a wrong by saying "well the last president did it".

Reread what I said to Cherri above. Klintoon set the standard for showcasing the mistakes of former administrations and claiming that "They all did it too" bullshit.

"I am not sure where all your vitriol comes from; your "My way or the highway" attitude is extremely un-american."

Bullshit. I dont recall that we compromised with the British in the 1700's, the Kaiser in the 1900s, the Nazis or Japs in the 40's. At one time America did have an "Our way or the highway" ideal that you socialists have successfully shamed us into abandoning. It aint gonna happen with this fella.

"Your attack on a point of view other than yours is so skewed that it cannot be taken seriously."

Fine. Make the same mistake the Japs and every other enemy that underestimated American resolve did.

"Liberal/socialists/communists all have RIGHTS in this country EQUAL to your own,"

Fuck you, NOT when it tramples and INFRINGES on rights and principles in our constitution. Youd like to believe that and then use it to cram there ideological bullshit down our throats. The reason this nation is so fucked up is because we are stupid enough to allow these usurpers to have their way. They got no right to demand we scrap the constitution and rewrite it while hiding behind the first amendment. You dont hear any constitutionalists or conservatives calling for banning the 1st amendment right to free speech with all that hate crime legislation bullshit, or demanding more infingements on our RKBA. Yet you socialist assholes do, and call us greedy, mean, dangerous and selfish when we refuse to give up our rights.

"and the more you go on spouting your contempt for the opposing point of view, the more unpatriotic you show yourself."

Patriotism has nothing to do with allowing people to piss on our flag, shit on our constitution and tear down our institutions without standing up to it.

"A true american, who believes in our constitution, who believes in what this country was based on, would engage the opposite side in civil debate, and not just vomit verbal abuse on them."

Oh bullshit. Go and ask any vet who faced the redcoats, huns, nazis, japs or other enemys if they were somehow not true Americans because they werent engaging in civil debate with our enemies. They'll all tell you to take a flying fuck to the moon. You cant reason with enemies that want you destroyed. In the case of socialists and marxists like Cherri, they shit on, and infringe on our freedoms daily and expect us to embrace doctrines forein to our principles of liberty. These people see 'rights' in the constitution that aint there, and ignore and demand the parts they dont like scrapped. I dont have to accomodate that bullshit and appear civil when they clearly show no civility either. its called war, and thats what were in right now huckleberry. Political warfare, it just aint got to the shooting yet. But the more these dipshits like Cherri keep on, the closer were gonna get to them shoving the wrong people and overstepping those lines in the sand and all hell is gonna bust out.

You dont accomodate enemies and compromise on your principles so you can get along with those that really have your destruction in mind, yet thats just what you told me to do. What a fucking wimp.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 10, 2001.

Truthbenown, you spent well over a thousand words answering Cherri, but you completely neglected to answer my simple questions:

If funding this program at $100 million would make GW Bush "a earth worshipping communist" and he isn't one, then why did he say this during the campaign in the speech, delivered in Miami on Aug. 25:

"Expanding the aims of the Tropical Forest Conservation Act, I will ask Congress to provide $100 million to support the exchange of debt relief for the protection of tropical forests." ...and then, when he was elected, why did he fund the program to only $13 million?

And was that honest?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 10, 2001.

Clean up time. Sorry 'bout that.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 10, 2001.

WHAT a startling concept: a politician who doesn't keep a campaign promise!

Let's see, there was Clinton on that tax cut that he promised, assured the American people that he would do, etc., etc.: "I've never worked so hard on anything in my life, but I can't do it."

Before that, it was Bush Sr: "Read my lips, no new taxes."

Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower ... go find your own examples.

What's amusing to me is that Dubya's opponents screamed bloody murder when a RUMOR was leaked to the effect that he wouldn't seek pay raises for the military. The latest budget DOES contain those pay raises. Turns out he wasn't lying about THAT one, at least ...

(But not a word from those who screamed bloody murder admitting that maybe they'd jumped the gun ... )

The man has been in office LESS THAN THREE MONTHS. Sheesh, at LEAST give him time to finish appointing his administration!

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 10, 2001.

Give us a break Mr. Poole. Resident Bush was not elected to the office and because of that doesn't even have the right to choose a cabinet let alone submit a budget. The poor fool actually thinks he was elected. We should really feel sorry for him because all he has to look forward to at the end of the day is a night with Laura. Shivers!

-- Tony Baloney (TonyB8973433@aol.com), April 10, 2001.

TruthBeKnown:

"Liberal/socialists/communists all have RIGHTS in this country EQUAL to your own,"

Fuck you, NOT when it tramples and INFRINGES on rights and principles in our constitution

Your words are not surrounded by qoutes. Since I am sure you can find the constitution on-line, please cut and paste a url, or provide a link, or in some way show us the text where the US Constitution says that we the people cannot be socialist/communist or name any political party that is not republican. Since you are so positive that this is the case you should have no problem cutting and pasting the text to prove it.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 10, 2001.

Cherri - "All of this crap you claim Clinton did is nothing more than a bunch of negitive "propaganda" that was blatently aimed at Clinton from the time he first won the office. Your arguement is pathetic, if you believe it you are a fool, if you don't you are scum. "

Have you ever read any of the garbage you cut and paste? You are just as guilty of doing this to Bush, as any rabid right-winger is of doing it to Clinton. Please tell me you were joking when you typed this. Or are you so blind in your hatred for Bush that you cannot tell that you are being suckered by a bunch of propagandists?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

Provided by USConstitution.net
------------------------------

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article I.

Section 1
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 2
The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section 3
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof, for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies.

No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section 4
The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of Chusing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section 5
Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behavior, and, with the Concurrence of two-thirds, expel a Member.

Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section 6
The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

Section 7
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed. No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince or foreign State.

Section 10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Article II.

Section 1
The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice-President chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not lie an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; a quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two-thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice-President.

The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Section 2
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.

Section 3
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Section 4
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Article III.

Section 1
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section 2
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the Supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Article IV.

Section 1
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section 2
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Section 3
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section 4
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Article VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Article VII.

The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names.

Go Washington - President and deputy from Virginia

New Hampshire - John Langdon, Nicholas Gilman

Massachusetts - Nathaniel Gorham, Rufus King

Connecticut - Wm Saml Johnson, Roger Sherman

New York - Alexander Hamilton

New Jersey - Wil Livingston, David Brearley, Wm Paterson, Jona. Dayton

Pensylvania - B Franklin, Thomas Mifflin, Robt Morris, Geo. Clymer, Thos FitzSimons, Jared Ingersoll, James Wilson, Gouv Morris

Delaware - Geo. Read, Gunning Bedford jun, John Dickinson, Richard Bassett, Jaco. Broom

Maryland - James McHenry, Dan of St Tho Jenifer, Danl Carroll

Virginia - John Blair, James Madison Jr.

North Carolina - Wm Blount, Richd Dobbs Spaight, Hu Williamson

South Carolina - J. Rutledge, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Charles Pinckney, Pierce Butler

Georgia - William Few, Abr Baldwin

Attest: William Jackson, Secretary

Continued below

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 10, 2001.

Constitution continued

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Amendment XI
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.

Amendment XII
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;

The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.

The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Amendment XIII
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XIV
1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Amendment XV
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XVI
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment XVII
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

Amendment XVIII
1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

2. The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

Amendment XIX
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XX
1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.

5. Sections 1 and 2 shall take effect on the 15th day of October following the ratification of this article.

6. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission.

Amendment XXI
1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.

2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.

3. The article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

Amendment XXII
1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President, when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.

2. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.

Amendment XXIII
1. The District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as the Congress may direct: A number of electors of President and Vice President equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives in Congress to which the District would be entitled if it were a State, but in no event more than the least populous State; they shall be in addition to those appointed by the States, but they shall be considered, for the purposes of the election of President and Vice President, to be electors appointed by a State; and they shall meet in the District and perform such duties as provided by the twelfth article of amendment.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XXIV
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XXV
1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Amendment XXVI
1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XXVII
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 10, 2001.

TruthBeKnown: "Liberal/socialists/communists all have RIGHTS in this country EQUAL to your own,"

Fuck you, NOT when it tramples and INFRINGES on rights and principles in our constitution

Your words are not surrounded by qoutes. Since I am sure you can find the constitution on-line, please cut and paste a url, or provide a link, or in some way show us the text where the US Constitution says that we the people cannot be socialist/communist or name any political party that is not republican. Since you are so positive that this is the case you should have no problem cutting and pasting the text to prove it.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 10, 2001.

People seem to be taking the constitution for granted nowadays.... so I'll give the link, EVERYBODY, read it! The US Constitution!

Notice how little power our federal government was suppose to have??? The preamble outlines completely what the federal government is resposible for.

-- LEARN IT (knowledge@power.com), April 10, 2001.

Enlightenment, you need some enlightenment. Nowere did I say or suggest that the constitution forbids or restricts any party affiliation or ideology, be it socialist, marxist, independant or otherwise. They can be a member of the alien nudist and circus clown haters party and say or print whatever bizarre theories they have. They can do wahtever they want as long as it dont infringe on my rights. Socialists, marxists and liberal democrats infringe on my rights, they infringe on my money and they infringe and deprive me of my pursuits of happiness. They are no better than if the chinese marched in here at gunpoint and demanded we hand it all over.

The constitution forbids infringing on and usurping the rights and freedoms we were born with. This is what socialists, marxists and liberal democrats do on a daily basis. They want the rights and freedoms of those they disagree with silenced and buried. They demogog and slime people they disagree with. They blatantly ignore rights and freedoms listed in the constitution and see and demand rights that dont exist (like healthcare or prescription drug programs as some kind of right). Then they demand the goverment rob from my pocket, my hard earned money to pay for this right they think they have. Thats called stealing at the point of a gun and threat of jail to give to a bunch of useless eaters freebies so some idiot can be reelected to office.

The second amendment debate is a perfect example of socialists, liberal democrats and other morons INFRINGING ON, RESTRICTING, TAXING and REGULATING A RIGHT I was BORN with. Sarah Brady herself is an avowed socialist, she desires that we scrap the second amendment or legislate it into oblivion. Thats example one. If you got a hard time dealing with it, what part of 'shall not be infringed' do you fail to understand?

Then theres the first amendment right to free speech. Its okay for all you liberals, marxists and socialists to display, flaunt and rant immoral and vile shit in our faces - but then these same ideologs push for and draft Hate Crime legislation and zero tolerance policies that is nothing more than Thought Police tyranny.

Im told Im not capable of teaching my own children, Im told Im not paying my fair share, Im told Im selfish when I want a tax cut, Im told Im evil because Im white or Im rich. Fuck you people! You got no business infringing on my liberties and rights and demand I bend to accept your nonsense.

Im called extremist, dangerous, bigoted, racist and intolerant. Im told that America is changed and that theres no place for my kind here anymore after I fucking gave YEARS in its service to keep you fuckers free to say your shit, piss on and burn my flag. But that aint enough for you socilaist fucks. You demand and get laws passed that force me to accept immoral fags as normal, force my preachers to tone down there religion, get penalized for having a fancy car or owning a business. Tell me I cant smoke and even threaten to charge me with abuse if I smoke in my own home with children around. You fuckers coerce my doctor to dig into my personal life and find out if I have guns, force me to buy special new gas for my car that is supposed to make the air cleaner but creates shortages and costs a fortune, confiscates my estate when I die leaving little for my children and all you liberals, socialists and marxists tell me that IM THE REASON THIS COUNTRY IS FUCKED UP??

No man, marxists, socialists and the left winging emoticons of the democrat party are fine to do and say what they want, until they step on my rights and pursuits of happiness. Since theyve already done that, they got no rights to nothing excpet the business end of my gun.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 10, 2001.

Tony Baloney,

Read the copy of the Constitution that Cherri posted above.

1. The electors voted.

2. The Congress certified the result and declared Bush the President.

3. He is therefore the President under our Constitution.

Let me know if I'm going too fast for you here ...

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 10, 2001.

Cherri, thankyou for posting the constitution. Please answer my question though. Please remember I am not trying to bash you personally, but I do think you are much a victim of propaganda as are the rabid right-wingers.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

Stephen, **I** "screamed bloody murder" because the last I heard, those "military raises" are the exact same ones that were in Clinton's budget; the *standard annual raise* the military is given. Has that changed? Has Junior increased it substantially as he promised during his campaign? He was going to increase those amounts because, as we ALL were told OVER and OVER and OVER.....the Evil Klinton just DECIMATED the military.

I've "screamed bloody murder" at the so-called "supporters" who claimed to have voted for him **on this one promise alone**.

It seems to have fallen on deaf ears as they remain strangely silent to this day; never did receive an answer from any of them. How incredibly odd.

I have to laugh because if this were a Democrat in office, breaking as many campaign promises as Junior has, in **LESS THAN THREE MONTHS** (as you so kindly reminded us), the right-wingnuts on this board would be screaming worse than they are now (as would the "liberal media" [sic]).

And one really has to wonder why they're all scrambling and screaming and frantically posting. After all, isn't this EXACTLY what they wanted?

Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it ;-)

BTW, it's so unlike you to use the old "they ALL lie" thing; I can't help but wonder what the reaction would be if you were (GASP!) defending a dreaded, evil Democrat with that line.

-- back to lurk mode..... (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 10, 2001.

You know Truthbenown sounds an awful lot like my old buddy Hawk. Is it true old pal? Have you come back to share your enlightened thoughts with us once again?

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), April 10, 2001.

That is definately NOT Hawk. Hawk was never a right wing lunatic.

TruthBeKnown:

Please see a doctor. I am very much concerned for your health. It is quite obvious you have no peace of mind, and are a very unhappy, unstable individual. May the god of your understanding melt the hardness of your heart and help you to realize that this is OUR country, and it is big enough and strong enough for everyone. Your vein-popping soliloqouy is an indication that you are in need of such peace, and I desire it for you quite strongly.

It must be so disconcerting to think the way you do; to think that because people think differently than you do they trample YOUR rights. It begs the question then, to ask "What makes your rights superior to any others?". Why is your point of view more protected than a liberal/gay/african-american male?

May the grace of your God shine brightly on your heart, and help you to realize that you do not have to threaten people on an internet forum with guns. I am sure you know that people are being arrested for that quite regularly, lately, so I would not go advertising it too freely.

Good night and God bless.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 11, 2001.

Genuine Libertarianism fights for the individual’s freedom from BOTH capitalist oppression and government oppression. The phony libertarian, speaks against the government, but advocates FOR those who control and manipulate the government, the National Association of Manufacturers, the Oil Lobby, the Military Industrial Complex, the Big Polluters, and other corporate interests.

Some of the Right Wing Libertarian arguments appear attractive on the surface. For instance, they appear to be for freedom, as a general abstract principle. However, what they really favor is the freedom of one person to control another . The Right Wing Libertarian believes in wage slavery, in the social system which mandates that the vast majority must rent themselves and their labor power to a privileged individual. This free individual will dictate (along with other capitalists) the conditions under which the worker will be deprived of his freedom.

When it comes to meaningful democracy, the right of the worker to manage, to control, to own the workplace, the phony libertarian remains mum. What they tell the worker is “you may dream; some day you too may be able to tell other workers how they should live and work. You too may join the class of the exploiters. Or maybe you will win the lottery someday.” But this is like telling the slave that he may someday become a slave owner, so he should support the slave system in the meantime. Such a position is devoid of logic, and the capitalist system, as it is constituted, is contrary to the very notions of freedom and democracy.

-- Don't Fall for It (resist@tyranny.com), April 11, 2001.

Patricia, Bush is getting the same treatment Clinton got. It sucked when it happened to Clinton and it sucked when it happens to Bush. It is ridiculous for one side to try to take the higher ground when both sides are guilty.

Many libs are trying to get revenge on Bush for the way Clinton was treated. Many conservatives were trying to get revenge on Clinton for the way Reagan/Bush Sr./Qualye were treated. Many libs were trying to get revenge on Reagan/Bush Sr./Qualye for the way Carter was treated, etc. etc. It doesn't matter who does it, it is wrong and needs to stop.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 11, 2001.

Dr. P., I am simply pointing out to Stephen what he asked about.

If you read it carefully, there is not one "Bush-bashing" statement in my post. I HAVE "screamed bloody murder" because of the military pay deal. Bush HAS broken campaign promises he made at what seems to be the rate of one per week. The right wingnuts on this board ARE screaming and scrambling, and I DO wonder why when this is EXACTLY what they wanted. I have ALWAYS referred to this group as "so-called "supporters"" as so many of them during the campaign, when asked why they "supported" him, would go into a diatribe about Clinton (who wasn't running). And I have ALWAYS questioned the label of the mainstream media as "liberal" (and one example, Dan Rather, does not a "liberal media" make) especially when one considers *who owns them*. I've seen Dems and libs on this board drilled new ones for using the old "they ALL lie" thing. I don't see ANYONE questioning Stephen on it.

I find it (once again) incredibly odd that you take issue with that post when there is nothing but two guesses (which really are "gimmes"), a number of factual statements and a couple of questions in it.

This isn't about "sides", Dr. P.; it's about a specific instance of hypocrisy. We weren't discussing Clinton, yet when Junior or anyone on the right is called on something, someone manages to drag Clinton into the discussion (as you just did). One has to wonder why the "deflection".

BTW, I never wanted to post at SLEZ Board (just not attracted to that "thought control" thing) and with the influx of new posters, it's slowly becoming that. So I will return to lurk mode.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

I forgot one last thing (sorry).....

You state that, "It doesn't matter who does it, it is wrong and needs to stop". This is another standard response of the right (much like the deflection to Clinton) when their "wrongs" are pointed out. Take the Burton investigations of Clinton's pardons as an example. The minute the Bush Sr. pardons were raised to show precedent, the White House issued a "suggestion" to get on with it. IOW, the investigations were to be *stopped*.

Haven't heard much about those "questionable" Clinton pardons lately, have you? Heh, guess it really isn't the "principle" of the thing.

-- back to lurking..... (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

it's so unlike you to use the old "they ALL lie" thing

Now, Trish, you know better than that! If the old Poole's Roost was still around, I'd direct you to a couple of threads where I specifically said this. I'm not a naive bumpkin; sheesh, ALL politicians must be "creative with the truth" from time to time. It's in their genes. :)

And besides, whether you're talking about Clinton or Bush or anyone else, it's easy to see a broken/sidestepped promise as a "lie." Yeah, technically it is; I'm not playing word games.

Plus, here's a hypothetical: suppose Bush said, during the campaign, that he would increase funding for onion research. This first budget comes out with no such increase. "Here's a liar," scream onion activists. But then the next budget comes out, and there IS an increase.

OK: did he lie?

Or, another one of my favorites (and *ALL* presidents get to enjoy this trick; it makes GREAT negative ads[g]). The president (and his party) propose, say, a 10% increase for Widgetcare. The opposition party proposes an 8% increase.

Both parties have proposed increases. But in the political ads for the next election, you'll see: "our opponents *CUT* Widgetcare!" :)

Is THAT a lie? :)

And on the military raises: I'm not saying that *YOU* said this, but the screams that I recall were from a few who insisted that Bush wasn't going to give raises at all; that they were going to be CUT OUT of the budget. Thus, he was "a liar."

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 11, 2001.

Don't know if you were talking to ME about the pardon thing, but as I recall, Stephen only made one comment about that. I said that the Founding Fathers gave the President virtually unlimited authority to issue pardons, fully knowing that they could be used for political purposes. They did it anyway.

Therefore, I don't *CARE* who pardoned whom. If we're that upset about it, let's amend the constitution to eliminate the authority.

Other than that, it's a non-issue with me.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 11, 2001.

He DID originally propose cutting out those raises once in office (and I DID jump all over THAT one, too). Then he back-pedalled (in retrospect, a sign of what was to come). So, are they the same ones from the previous administration (was it 3% annual that was the standard?), or did he increase them substantially as he promised to do (and as a number of people claimed was the preeminent reason for voting for him)?

A fairly direct question, don't you think?

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

No, sorry, the pardon thing was directed to Dr. Pibb.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

Trish,

Bush DID NOT propose such cuts. It was proposed in a bull session by some unnamed staffers and leaked to the press.

Find me one quote where Bush said (in his usual gloriously-clear syntax[g]) that HE HIMSELF proposed such cuts.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 11, 2001.

This is cool. We're online at the same time. But I've got to run to work now.

Drat. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 11, 2001.

Semantics, Stephen. Please answer my direct question.....

(But now that you raise the issue, there seems to be an awful lot of "unnamed staffers in the Administration" saying one thing, and then the *official* White House statement contradicting it once the backlash is discovered. Interesting.)

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

Enlightenment:

Worry about your own health. You know what you sound like? Like one of those soviet propaganda officers who deprogramed people that wanted freedom. Heres what you sound like:

"Please see a doctor Truthbenown. We are very concerned for your health. you have no peace of mind because you refuse to embrace the sound principles of socialism that most Americans now want. You are shouting and screaming about your birth rights and freedoms. This makes you a very unstable, unhappy and dangerous individual. You need to realize that this is OUR country now, and it is big enough and strong enough...and gosh darn it!...people like it! (you sound like Stewart smalley). Your vein popping screams about freedom and liberty is an indication that you are in need of peace, and we desire it for you strongly...so here, take this pill...it will make you happy and care free while we rob your wallet, steal your rights and rape you over the coals until we have made you comply with all of our wishes about how we want you to live your life."

Kiss off Doctor Stalin, shove your happy pills where the sun dont shine. Im done bending over and appeasing your kind. yoiu people have stolen, impuned, infringed and bullied people like me long enough. Were fighting back all your nonsense.

But enlightenment asks the good question: "What makes your rights superior to any others?". Because I was BORN WITH THEM and they are INALIENABLE and UNCHANGABLE. Go back and reread the Dec. of independance and the constitution. I aint pushing for laws to silence people I disagree with, or tell them what to do with their own land, or how to raise or teach their children, yet these same socialists think they got a right to do that to me.

"Why is your point of view more protected than a liberal/gay/african- american male?" Neither one of them is protected more than another. They can do, say and believe whatever they want to, until they demand I accept them and their beliefs as good and normal and step all over my rights so they can have there desires.

These liberal/gay/blacks or any other group you want to toss in there, can now throw me in jail because my speech is not to their liking, infringe on my right to KBA, and forbid and fine me for working my own private land...thats called tyranny son. It takes away my freedom of speech to say and think what I want about any group, my right to have guns and be secure in my own home and do as i wish on my own land. All infringe on the rights I was born with.

These people can say whatever they want, until they demand laws that makes people like me criminals because we dont embrace their lifestyles or share their views of how America should be. Thats the difference.

As to yor worry about my threat of force against anyone that deprives me of the rights I was born with, Im glad your worried. makes your kind think twice about stepping over that line that you have been salivating to step over. once you do, the gloves come off and the simple debate and argument with words becomes a real battlefield. its sad that not many people are willing to fight for and defend those rights, and its how the liberal socialists have gotten away with crushing our freedoms little by little.

I give a shit if you think me sick or pitiful. You just spent time demonstrating that you think people of my belief are ill and unstable, proving you think yourself annointed and superior to people that think like I do. you just proved yourself a hypocrite. you showed just how much of an intolerant condescending socialist fucker you yourself are. And here you call me unstable because I forcibly defend and stand up for the things I believe in. You got it all backwards chief. The intolerant raving maniacs are people like you that hide under the calm costumes of reason, tolerance and enlightenment with soothing words of condesension and ridicule to those that dont embrace your ideals. Once the truth comes out about who and what you people really are, you froth and scream and wail for us to be silenced and penalized. Tolerance and understanding for you people is only when everyone agrees with you. When people dont, you use extortion ridicule and threats to get what you want, even if it tramples on my rights protected by the constitution.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

Truth,

You were badly abused as a child, and have never gotten over it. You do need help, professional help, and we all encourage you to seek it. Please find the help you need to let go of the hate and fear you still hold on to for having been abused. Politics has nothing to do with it -- just seek the forgiveness and light that can come from letting go of what happened to you.

There are lots of support groups for people that are free of charge. Just call your crisis line and ask.

Good luck on your journey toward light and healing!

-- Find the Light (get@help.com), April 11, 2001.

Truth:

"You just spent time demonstrating that you think people of my belief are ill and unstable..."

My suffering friend, I did not make a categorical statement about "people like you". I was addressing you directly. I truly am concerned about the hatred you carry in your heart, a hatred that makes you blind to the damage it is doing. You have a built a babel of a wall around yourself, and it hurts, and it is painful, and you must lash out because you feel so powerless.

I know. I used to live in alarm mode all the time. At times I still do. For you I can just imagine shouting at the TV News and reading the newspaper being stressors with your world view. Being in alarm mode all the time raises blood pressure and can cause gastro- intestinal problems due to increased motility. These are real physical reactions which occur as a result of the stress which is bred by your strong feelings that this country has gone down the proverbial tubes.

If you choose to live in constant alarm, gun at the ready, you WILL cut years off your life, and that is a shame. Rigid thinking-Black and white thinking will almost always do that. You cannot stop me from caring about you no matter how much you protest. You are one of God's children and are my responsibility, as all of god's children are.

Take care and have a blessed day.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 11, 2001.

Thanks for making my point Dr. Marx. Not one point I made discussed. Just simple ridicule and classification by retarded idiots that think themselves better and smarter than the rest of us.

Shows your lack of any substance .

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

Trish-ah,

I DID answer your question. You just don't like the answer. :)

Bush DID NOT say that he would cut military pay. He never intended to and never said that he would. I again challenge you to find me ONE quote, however badly-worded, where he said this.

Plus, if you're going to insist that he seriously wanted to cut military pay, you've got to show me a motive. Why would he do that? What possible benefit could come of it?

In this case, cutting the funds to protect trees overseas, you could argue that maybe he caved to, or made a sweetheart deal with, some other conservatives. I can't think of a rationale for the military pay cuts. Can you?

On the pay cuts, if they WERE trying to "float an idea" to guage public reaction (sure, all administrations do that!), you have to explain why Cheney strenuously denied the reports the instant they appeared. The usual procedure for the "float an idea" thingie is to keep mum for a few days until public reaction has been fully guaged, THEN deny.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), April 11, 2001.

To the self-appointed netevangelist Enlightenment with the psychology degree from the Kremiln,

I dont give a shit what you think about me. whatever anger or hatred i carry with me is none of your fucking business, so you can just shove your communist psychobabble and analysis up your ass. im not gonna sit idle like you sugggest while you people push for more intrusions on my life, and piss on the constitution..so you can just go fuck yourself. Gun at the ready and black and white thinking as you call it is what established this country in the first place. My ancestors all lived into their 100s with more intense vigilance than I even got.

I think you pop way too much prozac.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

No Stephen, sorry, you DIDN'T answer them. My questions were very specific; regarding the increase for the military.....

"...the last I heard, those "military raises" are the exact same ones that were in Clinton's budget; the *standard annual raise* the military is given. Has that changed? Has Junior increased it substantially as he promised during his campaign?"

So, what is it? You indicated you knew....."The latest budget DOES contain those pay raises. Turns out he wasn't lying about THAT one, at least ... "

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

Truth:

The "truth" knows no religion; the truth know no political system; the "truth" knows no country. The truth is the truth. Unfortunately, you do not possess it if you believe, somehow, that it is up to you to define what this country stands for, and how it came to be.

You have a revisionist view of history, and if we were to go your way we would be right back in the hand's of tyrants, as your point of view is nothing short of tyrannical-again "my way or the highway".

As I have said before, I send you prayers of peace, tranquility, and love. May your wife and/or kids hug you tonight, and may you hug them back knowing the gratitude you have for them. We are riding this ship together, and God loves us all equally. May you be blessed with abundance, and may your heart be filled with warmth.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 11, 2001.

A kind word only turns away wrath when the message isn't bullshit covered in honey. Pray for yourself and your own kind I dont want your prayers, they are useless.

As to "Truth", I know what ideology you consider truth, and liberal socialism is not truth like you believe it is. Marx and Lenin thought their supreme truth was the light and the way. It enslaved and killed millions. Liberal socialism enslaves, it robs and it tramples liberty and freedom. it is not compatible with the rights we are born with which is why those regimes put up walls and razor wire to keep there own people in.

Your 'truth" sucks sir.

The only revisionist history being spouted about here is comming from you and your fellow socialist comrades. The only people demanding there ways are you bastards, and its done at the expense of our own freedom and liberty so you fuckers can feel all safe and secure behind mama gummint. I dont hear no conservatives calling for your speech to be classified a hate crime. I dont hear no conservatives demanding the fingerprinting and registration of gun owners like common criminals. You are the assholes revising our history and telling us that the Founders were racist slave owners that had no authority to establish a nation. You are the assholes telling us that only the military has the right to bear arms. So give me a fucking break with your bullshit..it dont fly with me.

You hate people with rugged individualism that can take care of themselves and dont want no intervention from others. Those are the people that built this nation, not a bunch of useless fucking freeloaders and whinney fucks demanding the goverment be used to pay for all kinds of shit and be used to take these peoples liberty away.

So fuck you and the tyranny you support. I at least stand up for myself, you go and run behind an ideology that pits rich against poor, minority against white, gays against straights, the working against the useless eaters, urban against rural, environmentalists against business owners and then beat us over the head with your bullshit guilt complexes of 'compassion'. You restrict and take away gun rights, create thought police with hate crime bullshit and regulate what I am allowed to do on my own property. You tell me you support life by making us pay to support serial killers and then kill millions of unwanted babies because people dont want to listen to morality anymore. Then you fucks go and tell me I have to pay to support these useless pieces of shit and clean up the messes they make.

No, your revisionist history would turn whats left of America into a socialist democracy instead of a democratic republic. You can keep and shove your version of it.

The only ship we would ride together would be the one that this nation used to be, where everyone pulled there own weight, took on their own responsibilites, gave to the charitys they wanted to, worked hard and didnt expect a damn thing from uncle sam or there neighbors. We had a common culture, a common language and a common vision: liberty and the freedom to pursue it.

So stick it.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

Patricia, although I addressed you in that post, I was not accusing you of this behavior. I meant it for people who feel the need to bash people they disagree with. Sorry for attatching your name to it.

This isn't about "sides", Dr. P.; it's about a specific instance of hypocrisy. We weren't discussing Clinton, yet when Junior or anyone on the right is called on something, someone manages to drag Clinton into the discussion (as you just did). One has to wonder why the "deflection".

Yes, but I did not attack Clinton in any fashion. I was trying to illustrate the fact that both sides are guilty of this disgusting behavior.

You state that, "It doesn't matter who does it, it is wrong and needs to stop". This is another standard response of the right (much like the deflection to Clinton) when their "wrongs" are pointed out.

I have criticized my fellow conservatives for bashing Clinton for many years now. I'm not trying to deflect anything. I am trying to point out that many who hold to my political ideologies are just as guilty the liberals are.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 11, 2001.

Truthbeknown, how the hell times do I have to ask a couple of simple questions in order to get a straight answer?

Here it is again:

If funding this program at $100 million would make GW Bush "a earth worshipping communist" and Bush isn't one, and yet he he said this during the campaign in the speech, delivered in Miami on Aug. 25:

"Expanding the aims of the Tropical Forest Conservation Act, I will ask Congress to provide $100 million to support the exchange of debt relief for the protection of tropical forests."

Why do you think he said that?

Then, when Bush was elected, he funded the program to only $13 million. Do you think that was that honest? If so, why?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 11, 2001.

Truth:

I am curious. Can you take what I said in this thread and show me exactly how you drew your conclusion? Sounds to me like you are ranting against a phantom enemy, some concept you have of what your personal "satan" would be. Your tirade about politics and my belief system is totally unfounded. I have not expressed any belief on this thread other than all people are created equal, and all people's rights deserve to be preserved equally.

I do truly care about the state of your heart. I do truly pray for that softening, for I do not pray only for those who would want those prayers. I pray for world peace, when many do not want it. I pray for many people who are unwilling to help themselves. In those cases, I pray they become willing to receive the loving warmth, the loving light that God is holding out to you.

You were once a child, a child with no preconceptions, no natural enemies, and no natural animosities. You are not born with hatred, and you are not born with values. You have to be taught these things. Intolerance of others is the root of all evil things that happen in our world-not money.

All of your hatred and anger have to pass through you on the way to typing your words. I am so sorry that you are so unhappy, and when that negative energy passes through you it harms you. I am sorry you do not see that.

Living in a world where you perceive so many enemies must be quite enervating. Maybe you could join a gym, or take a dance class to let go of that negativity. You are not beyond hope-no one is.

God bless and have a good night my friend.

-- Enlightenment (gone@away.now), April 11, 2001.

Hey nippy,

You got no understanding of how politics or our gummint works boy.

First of all Bush cant fund a goddamn thing. Congress does the appropriating AND the passing of the budget. If Bush could fund anything, hed of had his trillion dollar tax cut by now. But a budgets gotta be approved by the congessional committees, and then voted on by the house and senate for approval before it becomes law.

But to directly answer your question using the Clintonian paradigm;

Im sure he worked as hard as he did his whole life to provide that hundred million to be robbed from all our pockets to appease a few rabid environuts. But due to the vast mismanagement of the previous administration, he couldnt possibly fund it. Instead hes going to ask that all environuts pay their fair share of saving the jungles out of there own pockets.

As for you, quit fucking griping. You got thirteen million bucks robbed from the pockets of hard working people. Instead of being a fucking ingrate, you should be thankful that program got anything. Then theres the question of do I think its honest? Hey, your pal Klintoon set some excellent standards and definitions of what is and isnt lieing, what is and isnt truth, what is and isnt sex and so forth. So, using the NEW definition of what is honest set forth by Bushs predecessor, Bush was completely and totally honest. Why? Because the intent is all that really matters. Thats what Stephanopolous told us Americans as WH spokesman. Bush said he WANTED to fund that program to a hundred million. So because he wanted to fund it means that he really did fund it in his heart, so stop nitpicking the details and finding any excuse to trash the office of the president. Your obviously on a smear campaign.

Bush was honest because he really meant what he said at the time he said it.

Hey, I like Clintonspeak. It works great. I hope to hell Bush shoves this same bullshit we got on a daily basis from the Klintoons right back in the faces of all you people that saw fit to defend and exhonorate him of all his lies and crimes. Dont like it when it happens to you do ya??

What goes around comes around.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

I agree, Dr. P. (that rhymes...). And I have been accused of being one of those "bashers" at times, and with good reason.

I'm just tired of so much hypocrisy; so much "moral indignation"; so many double-standards (not accusing you of any of this, BTW). I'm tired of the republicans doing exactly the same thing as the democrats, and being DEIFIED for it, while the same acts by democrats result in their DEMONIZATION. And when they're called on it, the spin is simply amazing. The avoidance of the actual issues; the non-responses to direct questions; the turnabout to make it seem as if it's YOUR fault for mentioning it.

I'm tired of being one of too few people on this board who addressed it. Most of the rest are gone; successfully driven away by the right wingnuts you see now. Aside from Cherri, those of us who remain mostly lurk; post on a couple of threads; let it be. We know that these people look like lunatics. They really don't need any help in that area.

But I can't stand to see half-truths and complete lies be presented and swallowed as FACT. I wasn't raised that way. I can't stand the SPIN these people put on the wrongs that are pointed out, all the while accusing "us" of doing this. I was raised to believe that the truth really will "set you free".

I may not always live my life this way successfully, but my attempt is a damn sight better than much of what you see posting here. And perhaps it's much too idealistic a view; so be it. The alternative is unacceptable to me. And the last time I looked, I had the RIGHT to live my life that way.

What is happening is WRONG. When someone tries to address it, like Cherri, well, you see the result. It's happened to every single one of "us" who've tried to present an opposing point of view. Each and every one of "us" has had a derogatory thread started in our name. Each and every one of "us" has had to deal with the name-calling, the merciless and constant personal attacks. Each and every one of "us" has had our personal lives aired on these boards for all to see, all pretense at "confidence" and banter amongst "friends" completely betrayed. And because of this, each and every one of "us" has had to deal with nameless, faceless, gutless cowards attacking our very selves, all of whom who refer to themselves as "American Patriots".

And look how much worse it's become since EZB disintegrated (you'd think they would have gleaned at least a clue from that, but no).

Well, here's a news flash for the "richards" and "truthbenowns" of the world and all those who jump on the personal attack bandwagon: REAL "patriots" aren't afraid to show who they are and they DON'T constantly change "handles". REAL "patriots" don't spew vicious personal attacks on others because they happen to hold a different set of beliefs. REAL "patriots" don't start denigrating threads about other people. REAL "patriots" recognize that this country was built by different people and different cultures. REAL "patriots" recognize that that's what makes this country so great.

The irony of it all is that it's these so-called "Upstanding Moral American Patriots" who are the ones who are REALLY destroying freedom and liberty and truth. It is they who would have a nation of stepford people; all good little christians; all speaking the same language; all worshipping the same god; all looking exactly alike. Where is the "truth" or the "freedom" or the "liberty" in that? Freedom to be just like them? None for me, thanks; I'm *living*.

Is this what you want? Is this what you want to read day after day, thread after thread?

I'm tired of being told to "get over it".

There are MILLIONS of people out there who will NEVER "get over it". And I'm one of them.

Again, this is not directed at you, Dr. P. (nor at you, Stephen, as ornery as you can be some times). The ones to whom this is directed know who they are; assuming, of course, they have an intelligence level slightly higher than the current occupant of the White House.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 11, 2001.

I understand Patricia. Many of the conservatives on this forum have also been called derogatory names. Nazi being the most humorous of the lot. Many of the people pretending to be either liberal or conservative on this forum seem to be niether but rather trolls.

Cherri, please understand I am not attacking you, I am attacking the articles you copy and paste. There is a big difference.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 11, 2001.

Enlightenment,

I see Ive become some kind of personal crusade for you. somebody you have to "save" from their wrong and harmful beliefs. Your like an annoying communist Jehovas witness banging on the doors of those you just have to save from the torments of capitalism. Either that or you must be from one of those deprogramming schools from the old soviet KGB.

Goody. Your gonna be lots of fun to fuck with. I dont believe in your god so you can fuck off with the prayers and wishes. You might as well be serving me a cup of your spit for all its worth to me.

"I have not expressed any belief on this thread other than all people are created equal, and all people's rights deserve to be preserved equally."

Yeah, bullshit. Gimme your take on speech, guns, assembly, privacy and land ownership, and then well see if you really think all peoples rights deserve to be preserved equally. Your derrision of me actually proves otherwise, so ill call you a hypocrite in advance, okay?

"I pray for many people who are unwilling to help themselves."

Good. Pray that the useless eaters and welfare shits get off the dole and get jobs. Pray that single people that want to play house and fuck, take responsibility for the offspring they create. Pray that the victims of poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson wake up and realize they dont need some asshole telling them they arent capable of making it in society without them or a handout from gummint because of their skin color. Start there and ill let you know if your prayers are doing any good in about four years. I got my doubts your god will hear you.

"In those cases, I pray they become willing to receive the loving warmth, the loving light that God is holding out to you."

Good. After the environuts prohibited us from building power plants and drilling for our own oil, Americans are gonna need warmth comming from somewhere next winter and light while we spend this summer in the dark.

"You were once a child...."

Blah, blah, blah. I was once a child that was born with a right to go out and shoot every goddamn can, rabbit, squirrel, deer, possum, and varmit I saw. them rights is gone. I was a child that had the right to have arms without infringement. that right is gone. I was a child that had the right to call someone any name I wanted after he stole my hat. Now I can go to jail for a hate crime or have my children sent to a shrink and taken from my home if they did that. I was a child born with the right to own property and do with it as I wished. Now spotted owls and waterfowl have more rights than I do on my own land. So fuck the "you were a child" bit. I been watching my rights get stolen slowly for years. I had more rights when I was a child. I was more free than I am today. THATS where all the bitterness and anger comes from, Im not putting up with it anymore.

"Intolerance of others is the root of all evil things that happen in our world." Biggest bunch of fucking bullshit youve said yet. I suppose that when your buddies from nambla tell us that they have a right to molest our children, those of us opposing them would be intolerant and therefore evil.

Sorry dipshit, I dont suffer evil by being tolerant which is what you expect us to do. I wont accomodate enemies that seek my destruction by being tolerant. You expect us to be tolerant while you steal our freedoms away, to be tolerant when the fags tell our kids that gay sex is okay and normal, to be tolerant when fuck ups get to steal your money, to be tolerant when environuts tell you that your private land is not yours anymore. Fuck your tolerance. Tolerance only exists for you people as long as everyone agrees with you. But then you tell us were intolerant the moment we do not agree with you. So fuck your tolerance.

You are right about one thing though, watching and hearing all the people steal my money, brainwash my children, call me selfish, restrict what I do on my own land, and tell me im a racist, bigoted, rich wasteful danger to the world does raise the stress and anger levels.

You will be glad to know I control it through daily rifle practice, martial arts training, weekend hunting trips, annual combat training, paint ball leagues and attending gun and ammo shows. Not to mention supporting representatives like Ron Paul.

It does the vigilant heart good.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 11, 2001.

Truth:

Looks like you've been had by Enlightenment. This poster stoked you enough to show just how illiterate, ridiculous, rascist, and radical you really are. What a pity. What a disgrace. You are a pathetic, unsympathetic, piece of redneck trailer trash. Your this. Your that. Your this and your that. You are nothing but a rotten narcissist. The whole world revolves around you. How about this:

Use yourself as target practice before you tie a fag to the back of your pick up truck and drag him two miles.

-- BangBang (just@in.hiding), April 11, 2001.

Sadly, Truthbenown is a typical American in many respects

-- (cococo@nuts.wacko), April 12, 2001.

Heres a newsflash for you Patricia: what you are experiencing is a bunch of people that have had more than enough of the crap people of your ideology have heaped on them. What you are experiencing is people standing up to the condesending elitism coming from the left and the constant attack on the values and culture America once was.

Someones handle is no measure of their patriotism or there efforts to keep it private and anonymous. It's called wisdom.

Real patriots have had enough of the constant attacks on the way we live our lives, the way we raise our kids, the way we practice religion, the way we recreate. The viciousness is the result of being tolerant for so many years hoping you people would grow up and stop attacking decent people and principles that have made this nation what it is. But no, you people kept it up. Funny how you people dont want anyone telling you what to do, but you sure dont have any problem telling the rest of us what to do.

Real patriots understand this nation was forged by people from the world over that LEFT there culture at the boat dock, airport, or in the confines of there own home and came together to become Americans, to learn the language, to celebrate in public those things we as a nation honored. today the left tells us that diversity is good, when all it does is point out and magnify the differences. We celebrate individual groups and exclude others because they are not a minority race. Your diversity and multicultural crap causes resentment and divides Americans. We are no longer one people with a common vision and purpose, we have been turned into a bunch of squabbling, envious groups each demanding this right and that right at the expense of the rights we were all born with.

This country was made great because we became one people with the freedom and liberty to pursue our own visions of happiness. now we are told that our vision is racist, selfish, intolerant and wasteful. Are you beginning to see why some of us are so pissed off?

The only people destroying liberty are the people that tell me I have no right to a gun, no business raising my children with my values, no right to the money I earned, no right to speak my mind if its not pc, and no right to religious beliefs that are deemed intolerant.

I give a shit what gods, practices , beliefs or politics anyone wants to hold and preach, just so long as it dont step all over the rights I was born with.

And THAT is where the vicious ravings are coming from. its called enough is enough and were drawing the line. The constant insults hurled at people like me since the late 60's by people like you Patricia has created the hatred of things left that you see in my posts.

You called us right wingnuts and lunatics. You denigrate the presidents intelligence and call him stupid because he doesnt share or hold the same beliefs and values that you do. So because hes not a liberal socialist, Bush is stupid and evil when he hasnt done anyting to harm the freedoms or rights you were born with.

Funny, for years and years you people have gotten away with calling us every vile name in the book. you have slammed and denigrated what you call the right, and the moment the right stands up and plays hardball right back at you - you people go beserk and start crying your little eyes out in outrage.

Since you people dished it out for years and continue to do so, you better get ready to take it as well. You appointed yourselfs as better and more intelligent than us little people that are too stupid to live our lives the way you people see fit. So now that we are fighting back, you cant take the heat. Typical wimp.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

Truthbeknown,

First you say that Bush didn't ask Congress to fund the program at $100 million because he isn't "a earth worshipping communist". Now you say he would have loved to have funded it at that level. You are just going to have to get your story straight. Now you say he really "in his heart" wants that level of funding. So, then he's clearly "a earth worshipping communist" like all the rest of the folks you scorn as environuts.

Why are you so eager to approve of Bush, when you say flat out that he is working 'as hard as ever in his life' to accomplish the things you hate?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 12, 2001.

"You are a pathetic, unsympathetic, piece of redneck trailer trash."

Why thank you mr. bang bang. I'll take that as a compliment.

It might interest you urban piece of shit to know that while there is truth to the redneck trailer trash stereotype, as there is with all stereotypes, redneck trailer trash types are far and beyond some of the best natural marksmen on the planet.

It might have something to do with the guns weve been shooting since we could crawl. I know that unerves you soft urban yellowbellys and thats a good thing. Ill also add a giant bulk of our boys in uniform herald from the south and from places you would consider redneck trailer trash heaven.

And we got no fear of you people with your arrogant condesension.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

Little nippy,

It sailed right over your head....thats funny.

Let me just say publicy, that I dont recall ever saying that.....I dont remember Bush ever saying that he would fund it at a hundred million....I think thats a misquote of what he actually said. But if Bush did say it then he obviously meant it at the time and that should be sufficient to prove that his heart was in the right place and therefore the objective was accomplished. But let me be candid here and just say that Bush has indeed worked as hard as he has his whole life to give that middle class tax cut......um...I mean that hundred million dollars to the trees in the jungles.

All I know is that he has never lied, not one time ever, nor asked anyone else to lie for him. He did not have sex with that woman or inhale the cigars he doesnt smoke.

I hope that clears it up for you.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

Truthboy,

Have you met J or Dennis Olson? You and your friend Dick really ought to get together with those two. You could have a fine ole time cleaning each others weapon while romanticizing Timothy McViegh.

But I do have to say that you are right about one thing. We are plotting to come and get you. we will take every last one of your possessions and then silence you and your kind. I spend almost every waking minute planning and visualising the time that we break down your door, rape your woman (if you have one), burn down your personal property and drag you off kicking and screaming to one of the nearby reeducation centers. You might want to look up Iona, she has some inside information on some of my colleagues' activities in this regard that she would be more than willing to share with you.

I hope you keep in good health until the fateful momement when we meet as my boot kicks you in the head while you lay whimpering on your living room floor and my blue helmeted friends are pissing on everything you have managed to scratch together over the years of your miserable existence. Don't bother to resist because you know that this has been coming for a long time. Just hunker further down in your bunker it won't be too much longer.

P.S.

It is not just what your homey Bush tries to say that makes me think he is stupid, it's just the fact that he is an incoherent, blithering idiot that can't even put two sentences together coherently. I know, I know, appearances can be deceiving but this is a textbook case of what you see is all that you get.

Keep a light on for me ;)

-- Jack Booted Thug (governmentconspiracy@NWO.com), April 12, 2001.

Cherri, thankyou for posting the constitution. Please answer my question though. Please remember I am not trying to bash you personally, but I do think you are much a victim of propaganda as are the rabid right-wingers.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

Cherri - "All of this crap you claim Clinton did is nothing more than a bunch of negative "propaganda" that was blatantly aimed at Clinton from the time he first won the office. Your argument is pathetic, if you believe it you are a fool, if you don't you are scum. "

First off, I broke one of my rules, the last sentence was wrong of me, not the "Your argument is pathetic" part, but to put to give two choices as if they were the only ones, is. This is the type of "argument" some doomers used to give, and it was a form of non answer.

Second, There is a lot of evidence about the campaign that was waged to discredit Clinton by certain factions because his ideologies were not what they wanted and but mainly because he had prevented Bush sr from getting another four years to put their advance agenda. It cannot be denied that there was a constant stream of accusations that were lodged at Clinton, most of which were found to be baseless, but for some people believed completely. Yet Bush had a lot in his background that has been shrugged as if they were not important. Clinton had not yet diddled with Monica and stated he did not have (by the judges own definition) had sex with her.

Have you ever read any of the garbage you cut and paste? Yes, always. I didn't cut and paste the above article. Please understand that I do not take everything I cut and paste at face value. Some of them are an attempt to convey my beliefs in a manner of which I seem to be incapable, (I have difficulty putting my thoughts to words, unlike others who have a talent of getting their ideas across, others are just to pass on something that does not appear in the mainstream media.
Politics, unfortunately, is not an exact science like electronics and hardware. A lot of what it consists of is psychological manipulation. You are just as guilty of doing this to Bush, as any rabid right-winger is of doing it to Clinton. But I am just one person, I do not control major media like some groups of people, so I am harmless in the overall picture. The accusations against Clinton were investigated to death and never proven, although they are believed as true to many. The things I put here about Bush have not been investigated, they are being ignored or shrugged off with lame excuses. Please tell me you were joking when you typed this. No, I was not joking. I fail to see where Clinton has been found guilty of the accusations extremist right wingers spout as truth all the time. Except for Clinton saying he did not have sex with Monica, what charges have been proven-even with the millions of dollars that have been spent in the effort? Or are you so blind in your hatred for Bush that you cannot tell that you are being suckered by a bunch of propagandists?

To do not blindly hate Bush, I strongly dislike the methods and lies that were used to get him into office and the things he is doing to this country by his predisposition to cater to big business over the safety and welfare of the individual people of this country.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 12, 2001.

I hate it when I make these kinds of mistakes

Cherri, thankyou for posting the constitution. Please answer my question though. Please remember I am not trying to bash you personally, but I do think you are much a victim of propaganda as are the rabid right-wingers.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

Cherri - "All of this crap you claim Clinton did is nothing more than a bunch of negative "propaganda" that was blatantly aimed at Clinton from the time he first won the office. Your argument is pathetic, if you believe it you are a fool, if you don't you are scum. "

First off, I broke one of my rules, the last sentence was wrong of me, not the "Your argument is pathetic" part, but to put to give two choices as if they were the only ones, is. This is the type of "argument" some doomers used to give, and it was a form of non answer.

Second, There is a lot of evidence about the campaign that was waged to discredit Clinton by certain factions because his ideologies were not what they wanted and but mainly because he had prevented Bush sr from getting another four years to put their advance agenda. It cannot be denied that there was a constant stream of accusations that were lodged at Clinton, most of which were found to be baseless, but for some people believed completely. Yet Bush had a lot in his background that has been shrugged as if they were not important. Clinton had not yet diddled with Monica and stated he did not have (by the judges own definition) had sex with her.

Have you ever read any of the garbage you cut and paste? Yes, always. I didn't cut and paste the above article. Please understand that I do not take everything I cut and paste at face value. Some of them are an attempt to convey my beliefs in a manner of which I seem to be incapable, (I have difficulty putting my thoughts to words, unlike others who have a talent of getting their ideas across, others are just to pass on something that does not appear in the mainstream media.
Politics, unfortunately, is not an exact science like electronics and hardware. A lot of what it consists of is psychological manipulation. You are just as guilty of doing this to Bush, as any rabid right-winger is of doing it to Clinton. But I am just one person, I do not control major media like some groups of people, so I am harmless in the overall picture. The accusations against Clinton were investigated to death and never proven, although they are believed as true to many. The things I put here about Bush have not been investigated, they are being ignored or shrugged off with lame excuses. Please tell me you were joking when you typed this. No, I was not joking. I fail to see where Clinton has been found guilty of the accusations extremist right wingers spout as truth all the time. Except for Clinton saying he did not have sex with Monica, what charges have been proven-even with the millions of dollars that have been spent in the effort? Or are you so blind in your hatred for Bush that you cannot tell that you are being suckered by a bunch of propagandists?
I do not blindly hate Bush, I strongly dislike the methods and lies that were used to get him into office and the things he is doing to this country by his predisposition to cater to big business over the safety and welfare of the individual people of this country.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), April 10, 2001.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 12, 2001.

Truthbenown, I was actually going to respond to you until I read your response to "Little nippy" and realized what a waste of time it would be. You actually believe that, don't you? LOL. Seems what Cherri wrote just above this is quite correct.

Suffice it to say that you have a right to spew your froth and hatred any damn place you want; and you can thank "people like ME" for that. Because if it was left up to "people like YOU", we'd all BE JUST LIKE YOU and NO ONE would have the right to say anything that disagreed with YOU.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 12, 2001.

Patricia,

You certainly show yourself to be incapable of comprehending what you read. Where did I say that everyone should agree with me? No where. Please read again what I wrote above: "I give a shit what gods, practices , beliefs or politics anyone wants to hold and preach, just so long as it dont step all over the rights I was born with." Now do you want to tell me exactly where I say that no one should have the right to say anything I disagree with? Read what I wrote again carefully, I know you are an emotional basket case but just try to use your brain for logic this time.

The truth is that people of your political and ideological persuasion are the ones being the intolerant nazis that you accuse us of being. Seems that the moment you read or hear anything you disagree with, you classify what is said as froth and hatred, or you accuse the people saying or holding to those opinions as racists, fascists, extremists and so forth. Then you go forth and tell people they have no right to believe or say what they want because its a hate crime, its stupid, its selfish, its extremist...and so on.

No Patricia, you need to go and look in a mirror when calling me and what I say as hate and froth. Youll find that you have been doing that exact thing for a long time.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

Oh, but you are incorrect, oh keeper of "truth". You see, while I may vehemently disagree with virtually everything you say, unlike YOU I will "defend to the death your right to say it".

You have indicated that you would SILENCE "people like ME". I have no such desire to silence people like you because, as I said earlier, you show the world who and what you really are by your words and actions.

Why on earth would I have any need (or desire) to silence that? LOL.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 12, 2001.

"You have indicated that you would SILENCE "people like ME"

Please cut and paste where I said those exact words in the context that you presented it.

Until you do, you are full of shit and a liar.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

I wrote **INDICATED**. Do you get the difference between **INDICATED** and **SAID OUTRIGHT**?

Time to go back to Reading Comprehension 101.

Now if you want an example of where you **INDICATED** such, read on:

No man, marxists, socialists and the left winging emoticons of the democrat party are fine to do and say what they want, until they step on my rights and pursuits of happiness. Since theyve already done that, they got no rights to nothing excpet the business end of my gun.

So, YOU'VE decided that people with whom YOU disagree are somehow infringing on some kind of rights you claim you were BORN WITH, therefore (in YOUR VERY OWN WORDS), "they got no rights to nothing excpet the business end of my gun".

Your meaning is pretty damn clear to me patriot-boy. An outright threat. No wonder you're a goddamn coward hiding behind a pseudonym.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 12, 2001.

Patricia,

Don't let this guy "turth" faze you. I don't think I've ever seen such a specimin of hate and intolerance as manifested in "Truth" and I've been reading this board a long time. Even in the y2k days we had INVAR, who was horrible, but this case is really the worst.

It's awful when a psychopath enters the discussion and is allowed free reign. It's impossible to carry on a rational dialogue when the conversation is pummeled by incessant obsenities, threats, and hysterical rants. This is the pity of people like Truth. They ruin the party for everyone.

There's lots of other discussion boards on the net. I'm going to find new ones because I find incessant obscenties, and the lack of any moderator response to the obscenties and personal attacks, offensive and tiresome. It brings me down to have to look into the ugliness of Truth's head. He's a very sick person, and should be banned for vulgarity that reaches truly offensive proportions. Because this is an "unmoderated" board, it can unfortunately be ruined by sociopaths.

I have respect for all views, but I have no tolerance or respect for constant gross obscenities and personal attacks that reach a truly ugly level.

Patricia, find a place where you will be respected, and views are tolerated, and respect and civility is encouraged and enforced. This board isn't such a place.

-- Truth Has Ruined the Board (ugy@spoiler.com), April 12, 2001.

Yes and no. Truth has as much right to spew as do you or I. That's the beauty of it; and the ugliness.

He can only "ruin" something if we allow him to; and in responding to him, I am allowing it to happen. So I will heed your advice to the point where I will no longer encourage him. If he wants to post his hatred, so be it.

I choose to ignore it.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 12, 2001.

Patricia, you are a blithering idiot.

"So, YOU'VE decided that people with whom YOU disagree..."

No, I didnt say people I disagree with, I said people that INFRINGE on my freedom, to be more precise I said they " are fine to do and say what they want, until THEY STEP ON MY RIGHTS and pursuits of happiness"..theres a big difference there nitwit. I dont care if anyone disagrees with me, I care when you people threaten me with jail for speaking my mind, support people that want to take my guns away and think you have a right to my money. People like you are nothing but brownshirts for fascists in our goverment. The nazis did the same thing to their people at the end of the weimar republic.

"..are somehow infringing on some kind of rights you claim you were BORN WITH,"

hey stupid shit, go and read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, or do you want to tell me that my right to keep and bear arms, the right to redress grievances, my right to be secure in my person and effects, my right to private property and my right to free speech are just imaginary rights im claiming out of thin air?

"..therefore (in YOUR VERY OWN WORDS), "they got no rights to nothing excpet the business end of my gun".

Exactly. Those that are in the process and act of restricting, infringing and regulating the rights I was born with that are listed in and protected by the constitution, are tyrants and thieves. I have every right to defend those rights with deadly force if necessary.

If your about to be raped, you dont sit back and enjoy it, and you dont wait for the police to come to your rescue AFTER you been raped. You defend yourself, but of course in many places defending yourself is now illegal.

Its called tyranny. some of us wont abide in it like you people that are comfortable with it.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

Let's not overreact here, folks. NOBODY has or even CAN ruin this forum. It's open to everyone with varying thoughts on everything from hang-nail treatment to politics. Truthbeknown tickles me. He routinely confuses liberal with socialist and communist. He routinely confuses anyone who doesn't worship Bush with that talk show host [never could remember her name...Rosie O'something.] I don't know who he's talking about when he mentions folks who want to take his rights away, but I sure as hell know it isn't anyone here.

This is a forum which honors the First Amendment of the Constitution. We might debate the others, but we sure as hell honor the first. My personal opinion on the second is that the Supreme Court has never clarified it. My guess is that they never will. I have absolutely no interest in taking away anyone's guns, and I haven't found ONE poster on this forum that is as liberal as I am. I don't know WHO told folks like Truth that ALL liberals thought alike, or even that liberals were leaning towards socialism or communism [and I'd defy him to even find a country in the world where communism has been tried. The countries most folks reference as communist are really practicing totalitaritarian governments.]

Regarding Truth's profanity, if I can suffer with Manny and laugh at Chris Rock, what threat is Truth's language? None at all, as I see it.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 12, 2001.

Let's not overreact here, folks. NOBODY has or even CAN ruin this forum. It's open to everyone with varying thoughts on everything from hang-nail treatment to politics. Truthbeknown tickles me. He routinely confuses liberal with socialist and communist. He routinely confuses anyone who doesn't worship Bush with that talk show host [never could remember her name...Rosie O'something.] I don't know who he's talking about when he mentions folks who want to take his rights away, but I sure as hell know it isn't anyone here.

This is a forum which honors the First Amendment of the Constitution. We might debate the others, but we sure as hell honor the first. My personal opinion on the second is that the Supreme Court has never clarified it. My guess is that they never will. I have absolutely no interest in taking away anyone's guns, and I haven't found ONE poster on this forum that is as liberal as I am. I don't know WHO told folks like Truth that ALL liberals thought alike, or even that liberals were leaning towards socialism or communism [and I'd defy him to even find a country in the world where communism has been tried. The countries most folks reference as communist are really practicing totalitarian governments.]

Regarding Truth's profanity, if I can suffer with Manny and laugh at Chris Rock, what threat is Truth's language? None at all, as I see it.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 12, 2001.

Well it looks like I was totally mistaken. I thought this board was uncensored and that the people here were allowed to post whatever they felt because you people are so full of tolerance and understanding and debated all kinds of views and beliefs because you are the "good" people with broad open minds.

Obviously utter bullshit. Thanks for making it clear that those of you that clothe yourselfs in the monikers of "tolerance" and "free speech", are the same intolerant fucking hypocrites that most liberal socialists are. For people like you, respect and tolerance is affforded only when you are agreed with. Those that dont see things your way are ugly, dangerous, vicious, selfish, extremist, bigoted, racist, redneck homophobes that need to be silenced. then you go out to draft some law, some policy or some regulation to shut them up and make there beliefs illegal or banned. Thanks for making your hypocrisy so crystal clear for everyone to see.

Ive listened to you people come on over to conservative bbs and chat rooms, swear, cajole, ridicule, insult and threaten the people there, but cant take it when the same medicine is dished out to you. You liberals arent the only ones that can get nasty as youve found out and most of our people have been patient and well mannered for years while you swore, screamed in hysterics and impugned our character. You can thank yourselfs for driving people like me to dispise and hate your ideology. The gop made the stupid mistake of compromising and capitulating to you people, and still you insult, scream and ridicule them. So, since its a war you wanted, its a war you got and the only thing is that the shooting back hasnt happened yet. So far its the useless victims of the poverty pimps doing all the rioting and looting and shooting. Thats gonna change when you people push the wrong people too far and your just about there.

The divisions you people created over the years, and the class and race envy and the jealousy you rant about daily is just now starting to show its ugly head in places like cincinnatti. You people havent even begun to see the damage your stupid ideology is going to bring to this country, your just getting a taste of it now with the energy shortages, the class and race riots and the tyranny the gummint will use to restore order. Pat yourselfs on the back on a job well done if plunging the nation into chaos was your goal. Your desire of a hyphenated America has come true. Ill leave you now to your little socialist club here, where you can bask in how much more righteous and better and smarter you are than us little ordinary people that make too much money, waste too many trees, pollute the air with our cars, scare you because we got guns and opress people with alternative lifestyles because we wont accept them as normal.

And brave Anita, communism was tried right here in good ol USA back in the days before we was even colonies. William Bradfords buch tried pure communism for two years and nearly starved themselves out of existence. Communism dont work, it aint compatible with freedom because the incentive to succeed and achieve is plundered and redistributed among everyone, even those who dont do shit. There are many liberals that think communism hasnt been properly tried yet. thats why they want to apply it here.

BTW Anita, with all the lip service you give to the first amendment, not only do other liberals and socialists here not agree with you, but you wouldnt have a first amendment right without the second amendment to back it up and ensure it. Once those in power have no fear of the ordinary people, they will do exactly as every other goverment in history has done, and opress them.

Those in power running the show have very little fear left of the people. When you libs and lefties clap your hands in glee at another gun ban, another hate crime law and another confiscated property, you are putting the noose they is gonna hang us all with around your own throats. How does that Jewish saying go? When they came for the Poles I said nothing because I wasnt a Pole....etc. Difference here is the libs and lefties are not just being silent, they are clamoring for them to round up all the bad people and rights and beliefs they dont like and ban them just like ugy@spoiler suggested the moderators do to me here.

Hypocrisy is rampant with the Left. Thanks for pointing it out people. You made a great example of how tolerant you really are.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

I thought this board was uncensored and that the people here were allowed to post whatever they felt because you people are so full of tolerance and understanding and debated all kinds of views and beliefs because you are the "good" people with broad open minds.

Look, here at Unks you are free to express any opinion you wish, left, right, centrist, or totally of the freaking deep end. Anything you wish to say, no matter how offensive or off the wall others may find it, is peachy-keen with us. But if you expect for one moment that you can post your opinions without any dissension at all, you've come to the wrong board. Freedom of speech works both ways here. You're free to say what's on your mind, others are free to comment on it, and some of those others will agree and some of those others won't. You're either going to have to accept that or grow a thicker skin.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 12, 2001.

Tarzan,

Dissension? On this board? Are you kidding? I fully expected it. This place has got more lefties and libs than salon.coms board did in its hayday. As to your suggestion of growing a thicker skin, you might want to clarify your policy with your regulars that cant stand my presence on your board.

"It's awful when a psychopath enters the discussion and is allowed free reign.....It brings me down to have to look into the ugliness of Truth's head. He's a very sick person, and should be banned for vulgarity that reaches truly offensive proportions......I have no tolerance or respect for constant gross obscenities and personal attacks that reach a truly ugly level." - ugly@spoiler.com

Hypocrisy, wonderfully illustrated by one who considers themselves tolerant and compassionate. Truly funny. Gotta admit, you liberal socialists are a hoot an holler.

I leave you to your liberal leftys insane ravings.

-- Truthbenown (Upees@shit.com), April 12, 2001.

FuckFuckFUckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfu ckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck.

-- BlowMe (see@uncensored.here), April 12, 2001.

It took MANY tries, several cleans of my cache and a few reboots to even get to the end of this thread, but looking at the original post to this thread, one thing struck me. Bush didn't say he would set aside $100 million to support the protection of rain forests. He said he would put that money aside to do a swap of debt relief. Once in office, he learned that most countries with rain forests didn't owe the U.S. any debt. He learned that the $13 million set aside for this purpose couldn't be used LAST time because there are "real practical problems finding a place in the world where an actual swap can take place."

That makes sense to ME. I've been to Costa Rica, and their rain forests are being cut down at an alarming rate. However, they don't have a debt to be "swapped" with the U.S. I care about the environment, and I [especially] care about the rain forests, but in this particular case, I wouldn't say Bush broke a campaign promise, seeing that the countries involved don't fit the bill.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 12, 2001.

"Well it looks like I was totally mistaken. I thought this board was uncensored and that the people here were allowed to post whatever they felt..."

Anybody stopped you yet? No, I thought not. All you are doing is whining because people don't like you or the horse you rode in on - and they have the utter temerity to say so. If you must whine, then whine about something that isn't bogus.

Freedom of speech includes talking back. And, no, I don't like you either.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 12, 2001.