Of Those Who Simply Must Preach Their Delusion

Friday morning found me at the dentist for the first time in a long, long while. Dentophobia can have that net effect. I survived the ordeal, received a good report to boot, and decided to treat myself to breakfast at a local diner renowned for its dirty cutlery and "unusual" smells.

Downing my first cup of coffee - swapping the mug and a cigarette back and forth from counter to lips - out of the corner of my eye I spied a gentleman seat himself next to me. A swallow and exhalation of carcinogens mixed with carbon dioxide was followed by a smile and the utterance of "Good morning" to the man.

I suggested he was welcome to that portion of the USA Today which lay on the seat between us, as I was wrapped up in the Sports section and had no interest in the rest of the newspaper. He thanked me, picked it up and began to examine the headlines.

No sooner had he brought the hand holding the paper up to his eyes than he exclaimed how he saw no justice in arresting killers of abortion doctors (a reaction to a sidebar news blurb). The Bible said as much and the Bible could not be wrong for it was the word of god. A fine subject to discuss with a stranger over breakfast, eh?

I immediately, silently regretted ever acknowledging this guy, and scolded myself for supplying him with the newspaper which served as a catalyst – or perhaps an excuse - for his preaching THE TRUTH, which continued incessantly until my breakfast had been finished and I’d made my escape.

This man held THE TRUTH! The confidence, the absolute knowing beyond all doubt sparkled in his eyes. For just a brief moment I longed to feel that certainty which guided him, then regained my senses and felt pity and then forgiveness well up inside. For this man was in delusion. No different in state of mind than I. He chose his method of delusion and was quite content with it.

Just one problem: he was a Christian! He could not keep his delusion to himself. He cared not a lick whether I was interested in his spiel. He could not allow me my peace, could not let me enjoy my newspaper, my breakfast, and my own quiet brand of delusion. Oh no.

For he held THE TRUTH!

I smiled as I piled the eggs, potatoes and toast into my mouth as quickly and neatly as I could. I smiled at this man who felt THE TRUTH needed to be shared, and shared right that moment with me. I acted with civility, patience and forgiveness, for this man who couldn't help himself, who's twisted concept of respect for others forced him to attempt to save my soul, was in essence a gentle man, a deluded man...

Just like me.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 02, 2001

Answers

Rich, that is what you get for reading USA Today.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 02, 2001.

Yes. His truth is just as true, his reality is just as real, his righteousness is just as righteous, as yours, mine or anyone else on this Earth.

-- oYo (@@...), April 02, 2001.

Consider any issue, not just abortion. You reach a judgement. In the beginning you are willing to compromise with those who disagree. As time goes on and you become more committed to the morality of your view, it seems less conceivable to compromise with "evil". It's almost a natural progression. In extremes, it becomes possible, even necessary, for people to justify immoral means to achieve moral (in their eyes) ends.

One sees this in abortion, environmental issues, animal rights issues, anti-war issues, etc; anything involving politics or morals.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 02, 2001.

Wishy Washy good, certainty bad.

-- KoFE (your@town.USSA), April 02, 2001.

Tolerance good, intolerance bad.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 02, 2001.

USA Today puts out a good sports section. The rest of it is bird cage liner.

oYo, insert the words to him into your statement and I can agree with you. "His truth is just as true" to him, "his reality is just as real" to him, "his righteousness is just as righteous" to him...

It is when we thrust our Truth, Reality & Righteousness into the faces of others unsolicited that I have a problem. In my experience, Christians are primary offenders. I grow tired of fending them off with civility. Respect for others is often a missing ingredient in their recipe for saving souls.

KoFE, there are times when certainty is called for, and times when admission of uncertainty the logical step. Wouldn't you agree? "Wishy- washy" is a tag used by those who are certain they know what's best for me, to describe my inability or unwillingness to see what they see - The Truth.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 02, 2001.

Amusing story, Rich. I couldn't help but smile as read your excellent description of the predicament you were in. I too have found myself in similar situations.

Lars made an interesting observation... In the beginning you are willing to compromise with those who disagree. As time goes on and you become more committed to the morality of your view, it seems less conceivable to compromise with "evil". I find this is particularly true with respect to some people's politics. I have often witnessed this "natural progression" take place on both this forum and "Pooles Roost". Many times I've watched as those who have a reputation for never using such tactics, suddenly resort to hyperbole, sweeping generalizations, sarcasm, selective information, questionable sources, highly biased sources, and above all, a seemingly haughty contempt towards those who hold an opposing view. Interestingly enough, people like this don't hold mere "opinions". You see, just like Rich's buddy at the breakfast counter, they know the TRUTH.

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 02, 2001.

-- (-@-.-), April 02, 2001.

Close!

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 02, 2001.

Yes Rich, I would agree. I think a person should always leave room for doubt. I would like to wrong about several troubling issues that get my attention, however, what I see here most of the time is invective and psychobabble, rather than truth.

-- KoFE (your@town.USSA), April 02, 2001.

How true, CD; how true.

-- more convinced than ever ;-)... (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), April 02, 2001.

wrong-teaching======wrong preaching.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), April 02, 2001.

On the other hand...

Its not a totally inconceivable position to hold that abortion is, in fact, killing a human being.

Not that I'm asserting that here, mind you.

But if one did hold that, then the millions of abortions done each year in just this country would be seen as a human genocide.

That is, to one who perceived the situation in such a manner.

Imagine this guy's worldview: We have a mass extermination going on that rivals that of the Fascist regiem of Nazi Germany, [or Stalin's on a good day].

To this man, that is.

So from his perspective, he's being incredibly restrained and polite about the whole thing. Just imagine this guy's frustration to see all our cereal boxes exhorting us in infinitely warm and fuzzy ways to save the rain forests and various flora and fauna while [what he sees as] a human crime of unprecedented proportions continues unabated and unchallenged by our dominant culture.

In any event, your problem poses some very interesting issues. But certainly one of the most interesting is this:

While you think this guy is way overboard, to his perception he's way restrained. Appearently different points of view inevitably lead to different feeling of propriety. Your restraint and lack of condemnation is admirable. If we could all manage that we could have a world based upon civility rather than force and deception.

-- timphronesia (politicus@webtv.net), April 02, 2001.

"In my experience, Christians are primary offenders. I grow tired of fending them off with civility. Respect for others is often a missing ingredient in their recipe for saving souls. "

I have an uncle who is a rabid union man. He is as bad as any Christian I have ever met. Delusional is a good word for him.

-- ??????????Question Mark???????????? (?????@questionmark.?????), April 02, 2001.

Many times I've watched as those who have a reputation for never using such tactics, suddenly resort to hyperbole, sweeping generalizations, sarcasm, selective information, questionable sources, highly biased sources, and above all, a seemingly haughty contempt towards those who hold an opposing view.

Good heavens CD, no wonder my ears were ringing!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 02, 2001.

Am I missing something here? The man stated he felt the killing of abortion doctors is not a crime.

There is nothing to be tolerated here. No point of view to accept. The man is living in a world where his kind set the moral absolutes, where his kind think it is okay to MURDER people. This is not the rule of law. This is not acceptable. I do not care if you believe that a mass of ectoplasm is a human being, it makes you all the more a hypocrit when you can smugly say that the killing of another human being is God's justice. It is murder, pure and simple.

This is NOT your country, christian militants. This is not your plot of land to lord over with your moral absolutes. I saw an HBO special last night about the Army of God, and these lunatics are talking about starting a civil war, and cultivating trained assassins to take out more people in the abortion realm.

This is not rational behavior. And I will continue to REFUSE to accept it.

Join me in the emergency march on Washington on 4/22/01 for the protection of woman's reproductive rights. I have had it with christians who think their moral absolutes rule the world.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 02, 2001.

Oh my! I've stepped into 'my world'. I manage a dental office during the week and sling hash at a local diner on the week-ends.

People afraid of the dentist? I meet them all week. People putting off seeing a dentist for years? I meet them on a regular basis. Must I remind everyone of the importance of regular check ups so that the 'little' problems don't become the 'big ones'? Isn't it much better to have your check up and prophy every 6 months than to wait and have that root canal or extraction later on? Does anyone want to know what that molar root canal, post and core and crown cost?????? God forbid you need that 3 unit bridge!

On the week-ends I'm on the job at 6 AM - sharp. Good Morning! Can I get you coffee to start? How would you like your eggs ... up, over, scramble or poached? Onions in your potatoes? How about that toast ... white, rye or whole wheat? A newspaper? Why yes, we have a couple of copies at the end of the counter. Record or Ledger?

I think that diners are a special place for Christians. Does anyone know how many come in and sit at a table for bible study? I've always wanted to ask them if there is anything in that there bible about rudeness. I mean, can't they see there are people waiting at the door for a table? And don't they know that the waitresses and waiters make their money turning over their tables when it's busy?

Still, Rich, I too smile at the people who are so engrossed in their truth that they just don't see anything else.

-- Debra (Thisis@it.com), April 02, 2001.

Seeing humor in almost everything,I might have carved little pentagrams into the toast,molded 666's with the taters left on the plate and sculpted a mini satan from the eggs.Of course it'd only been fer shits- n-giggles,but well worth the price of a screwed up breakfast.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 02, 2001.

Cappy,

You I gotta meet! ROTFL!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 02, 2001.

Hopefully our own poster calling himself Dumbya reads this and realizes that he is no different from this delusional person you met in the diner.

-- the guy who calls himself dumbya is delusional (and@boring.too), April 02, 2001.

timphronesia,

Your analisis reminds me of a story I once heard.

A man and his wife were having trouble in their relationship after only a few months of marriage. So they went to see a councelor to help them sort things out. He told them that the first thing he wanted to do was to separate them, take them each at a time into the inner office and ask them about the things the other partner did that annoyed them.

The husband went first. After much exploration of feelings the husband admitted that the very first morning after the honeymoon his wife did something that annoyed him, and she was still doing it to this day, but he had never mentioned it to her. It seems that that first morning she gave him the two ends of the loaf of bread for his toast. "Everyone knows that the ends are the worst part of the loaf" he said, "And here she was eating the nice whole slices of bread while giving me the ends."

After interviewing the woman the therapist brought them both out together to talk some more. He asked the husband to repeat his story about the toast, and the husband did so. The wife was shocked at this admission, and told the therapist that in her house, while growing up, the ends of the loaf were the most highly prized pieces of bread, in fact the toasted ends of the loaf were fought over when she was a child, and that she thought she was doing her husband a huge favor by giving him the ends for his toast!

In her mind she was sacrificing for her husband, and in his mind she was being selfish while he was getting the short end of the stick.

Such is human interaction without complete communication.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 03, 2001.

Uncle Deedah,

Yep. When I was young I used to think I was so much smarter than everyone else. When I got a little older I figured I was just smarter than most. Later I still had pity for those few dumb yutzes down the street.

Lately I'm slowly starting to realize that everyone kinda has their own thing going-- some are spacey but happy, some brilliant but depressed, some totally spiritual, some totally material.

Similarly, I've been noticing that there's always a reason for people's passions and concerns.

I could get a little down on my neighbor for not being as aware as I am. Or I could take the time to relate and share with him --as though he was my equal.

Look, if I know something, I mean really know something, I can teach it. ***And it will impact those around me.***

When I'm not up to that, then I find it quicker and easier to brightening up my own light first.


Future Shock, Yeah you got a point. But you see, this guy figures that you, and I, and he are just as much a piece of ‘proto-plasm’ as that fetus is. And he probably figures that a culture that prefers unborn trees to unborn people is a significant potential risk factor to the health of him and his offspring.

I'm not saying that it is, but I'm pretty sure that's how he and people like him see this.

So for him, equating the murder of an abortionist with the killing of a slave-owner or a concentration camp guard isn't a leap. This society uses brute and deadly force, on a consistantly regular basis. This man therefore seems to see these means as just, "if they fit the crime".

I certainly do not see it that way. My understanding is that, "the eye for an eye stuff is out", even if most powers in the world still practice it. I'm told to ***unconditonally love*** the mental children, emotional children, physically children and even the politically children around me up into greater maturity and mental health.

Who? tells us that none of us are merely hopeless lives to be impatiently tolerated; but that we are each created to be living vessels for Infinity? Who? said and says and forever always will say that?

Not just anyone.

-- (politicus@webtv.net), April 03, 2001.

Lars, having grown up Jewish in a vastly predominant Christian town (and country), I believe I'm more sensitive to the mindset and wordsmithing of those carrying The Message of Christ. Or maybe they simply sniff out that my soul flounders on the precipice of hell?

This fellow did not tempt me with a hard-sell. Rather, he broached the subject of abortion and followed up with scripture not caring a wit as to my interest, my stance, or my breakfast. Nothing I said broke the surface of his rapture or his rap.

Anita, believe me or don't, but I think of you and your openness to engaging people in discussion quite often. You serve as a role model for this introvert struggling to break out of his shell! My impulse is to duck and cover when faced with situations in which conversation with strangers is imminent. You, ma'am, play a part in the rehabilitation process which may one day result in my rejoining society. :)

Timphronesia, excellent points. I do try to come from that place when dealing with people. This requires exhibiting basic respect for others; that they certainly are entitled to espousing their views; that they too may be exercising amazing restraint; and that they very well may be correct! The bottom line for me is this: People such as the fellow in question, while free to exercise freedom of speech, nonetheless ignore or are uneducated as to the cornerstones of communication – ask questions and listen to the responses, then proceed with impressing one’s opinions if so moved. My experience with Christians who look to save souls is they care not one whit as to the principles and ideals of anyone not saved. There's a job to do - preach The Truth - and by golly they’re gonna do it.

Question Mark, you hit the nail, bud. Union members & political party hacks are folks who likewise have agendas in which conversion to their causes is numero uno. They choose to live in an Us v. Them world. Black & white with no room for gray in their sculpted realities.

A word to FS and others: I do not discuss abortion. My initial post (hopefully) reflects no comment, yea or nay, as to abortion. It is, IMO, DEFINITELY NOT a subject to be discussed with a stranger while eating eggs!

Debra, I do miss NJ diners! As I've eaten in a large percentage of them from the central to north coast of the toxic dump, uh, garden state, we may have run across each other. You'd remember me. I'm the guy who writes his office phone number on his tip money. ;)

Unk, that's a classic story. Such is human interaction without complete communication. Tattoo that gem on everyone's forehead. It's a keeper.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 03, 2001.

A word to FS and others: I do not discuss abortion. My initial post (hopefully) reflects no comment, yea or nay, as to abortion. It is, IMO, DEFINITELY NOT a subject to be discussed with a stranger while eating eggs!

LOL. Didn't he have a problem with the unborn chickens who sacrificed their lives for your breakfast?

-- (incredible@edible.egg), April 03, 2001.

Rich--

Yes, I forgot that your Jewishness could make you especially sensitive, especially vulnerable. But it is my impression that you are an ethnic Jew and not a religious Jew, so unless you "look" Jewish, I doubt that you are being targeted. In fact, you are not the only one here that seems to feel beleagered by prosletyzing Christians run amok. Tarzan, do you copy?

IMO, my first point is much more important; ie, there is a deadly logic in true-believerism of any sort. The believer often starts out as a generous person, but over time becomes radicalized. After all, if one truly believes that abortion is mass-murder, then it is a small step to believe that mass-murder should be opposed by more a few specific murders.

You see the same inexorable logic at work in so many places---animal rights, environmentalism, civil rights, ideologies of all kinds. ELF, for example, burns down construction projects that it considers immoral. How long before someone dies? The anti-war movement of the 60s was originally a peaceful activity. It soon became radicalized and deadly bombings were a rational next step. Civil rights---peaceful MLK protests soon gave way to militancy (armed Black Panthers) which soon gave way to thuggery (rioting and looting the very neighborhoods in which the agrieved people lived).

Alas, the examples of the extremist mentality are legion and are not limited to Xtian anti-abortionists (who represent a small percentage of all Xtians).

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 03, 2001.

Isn't the "God's Justice" that this man speaks of from the Old Testament. I thought that stuff was superceded by Jesus' teachings.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 03, 2001.

Tim

I appreciate your comments. You put a lot of thought and fairness into them.

That being said, I still do not follow that one can rationalize murdering other human beings for the "cause". We have a system of government, we have a rule of law, which governs punishment, and which gives everyone the opportunity to change it.

We can press our points politically by having a regular dialouge with our elected officials, and if they do not see things as we do, campaign for someone else that does. I was outraged by what happened in Florida, totally outraged, and according to what you said earlier, one could understand if I became so angry about the election that I started shooting at and killing republicans that crossed my path.

There is no degree of passion that justifies taking the law into your own hands. Non-violent civil disobediance is one thing; murdering people is entirely another. When you start murdering people because the majority does not take your position, and because the laws do not "look right" to you, you start lowering this country to third world status, where this kind of thing occurs regularly. It is less evolved souls who insist on violence as a way of making their point.

BTW, I do not remember anything about unborn chickens.

Someone posited a theory about pro-lifers somewhere in the last day- something about how they were not cared for as children. I did not really onder this, but from what I can see the one thing the preaching christians have in common is lack of boundries-being able to recognize and respect other's boundries. There is definately some developmental psychology which addresses this issue, which I will not get into in this debate, but I once had this problem, too.

Once I leared how to set my own boundries, I was able to accept the boundries of others. I find it hard to swallow to be asked to accept that a christian zealot has "reasons" for what they do when they lack basic human courtesies.

I don't know. It seems to me that "attraction instead of promotion" is a much saner way to grow your flock...

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 03, 2001.

For much of my first twenty-five years I was mired in pessimism, the end result of windmill jousting day after day after day. I staunchly refused to give up my "ingrained from the womb" habit of inquiring as to why people do what they do, and why I should follow along unquestioningly. I demanded answers to questions which were taboo. Not a path for the weak of heart.

At some point I realized there were inner questions I needed to resolve in order to continue on in this life. "How can I best exert power to influence others?” “Which issues sufficiently rouse my need to influence others and which can be tossed into the 'not critical pile'?" "Which tools best serve me in these endeavors?" "Which core principles of mine can withstand an occasional bend without breaking, which have yet to be tested, and which are planted firmly, are unshakeable, and cannot and will not be compromised?"

I found one core principle that could not tolerate the fold, spindle and mutilate routine of justification of actions with which we all face daily. First do no harm in thought, word or deed. A tough nut, but one that runs clear through me from epidermis to the very depths of my being. It was settled. I could not undertake radical methods of exerting influence over others and remain true to myself. Thank god.

I then identified the fact that I am not one who joins organizations or causes. That one's a no-brainer.

More questions: "Why do I wish to influence others?" Because life presents us with a never-ending series battles & power struggles. "Do I wish to enter into this constant tug-of-war, or sit on the sidelines gratefully or ungratefully accepting that which finds its way to me?" "If so, where must I be personally in order to survive and flourish?"

So I was left with one direction to take. Work on being the kind of person I wished to be way deep down inside. So the work continues...

I began this post with the intent on responding to Lars comments. The above just spilled out and my fingers followed. Lars, I can understand how people become radical in their efforts to change others. I really can. Whereas I have built-in stops, principles which do not allow me to freely hurt the individual for the (real or imagined) "betterment of the group", some folks do not have these limits in place. Some "run their own stop signs", as it were. I know how that goes.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 03, 2001.

Good heavens CD, no wonder my ears were ringing!

I doubt those were your ears ringing, Unk. Considering that my post was in reference to those who resort to the usage of hyperbole, sweeping generalizations, sarcasm and haughty contempt towards others, it's much more likey the ringing was heard in the the ears of DiETer.

Seeing humor in almost everything,I might have carved little pentagrams into the toast,molded 666's with the taters left on the plate and sculpted a mini satan from the eggs.

Hilarious, capn! The perfect solution to such a predicament. I'm definitely filing that away for future reference.

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 03, 2001.

Now,if I could only get the sculpted satan eggs to levitate and maybe spew a little,I'd really be in business!!!

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), April 03, 2001.

Capn-

Those Jersey Diner eggs do that Naturally...

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), April 03, 2001.

Jersey diners always make me think of Edward Hopper's Nighthawks even tho that scene was not a classic diner.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 03, 2001.

Rich and Future shock:

I agree. Without respect basic communication, upon which all of society depends, is impossible. Conversely, simple honest communication is probably THE sign of sincere respect. The gentleman in question above lacked these skills to some degree, it seems. But so do most.

Future Shock, regarding the issue of the damaged childhoods of active Christians [and others called to a mission of sorts]:

Those who have suffered injustice most acutely either become vicious and cruel themselves, or they forever resonate with the sufferings of others. That sym-pathos [shared passion] alone is an untenable emotion unless somehow one can be free to actually help to ones suffering in this world. Hopefully the consciousness, the light, necessary to constructively and creatively operate in such passion is also present.

-- (timpoliticus@webtv.net), April 03, 2001.